View Full Version : Have you ever *needed* backup sights?
PrivateCitizen
07-13-16, 23:05
I am curious how many, while deployed or were in service, have had to switch to backup irons from an optic because of failure (or some other circumstance).
Their use is obvious … but anymore what is the actual likelihood?
I appreciate the feedback anyone can offer.
I've never been deployed anywhere, but twice I got my AR out of the safe and found my EOTech 512 had killed the batteries again (despite next to no use). I've also had the batteries suddenly go dead in my weapon lights as well (both pistol and rifle) so I am really, really down on trusting ANY battery-powered gadget on a firearm. If I were playing for real I wouldn't dare use a weapon without back-up iron sights. If the damn things can crap out just sitting unused inside a gun safe how can they be trusted out in the middle of Asscrackistan?
eightpoint
07-13-16, 23:25
I never had an optic (EOtech, Aimpoint, ACOG, Leupold) break or lose battery life, but I'd imagine that most that spent a lot of time deployed were like me, and changed batteries in optics, NODs and all other devices religiously every 2-4 days max, if available. Hooray tax dollars.
Back when I owned an eotech, I had to use buis twice. Once at the range, and another time in the desert target shooting. I never knew when the batteries were going to crap out. Buis have also come in handy when zeroing a new RDS, and I also sometimes raise the rear sight when taking precise shots, it cleans up the dot due to my astigmatism.
I'm curios to hear about this, too, especially those who were issued a relatively reliable optic. I've seen quite a few photos of some special dudes overseas running optics without BUIS. IIRC, Pat Rogers kind of thought they were superfluous given the track record of sights such as Aimpoints.
turnburglar
07-13-16, 23:58
When deployed 80% of the time I was using pvs and peq. Being able to change those batteries in the dark with frozen fingers was a challenge. I had a m4 aimpoint that was back up to my peq.
During my 12 months in Iraq, I would say we spent most of our time patrolling during the day. Never had an EoTech or Aimpoint go down. But like stated above, batteries were changed religiously. Most of the optics my unit had were quite old as well, and were almost all replaced during our reset.
We didn't have optics when I was in the military, but since I have started using an Aimpoint Pros on my two farm rifles, I have never had one go down and had to revert to iron sights. However, I change the batteries on New Years Day every year just like my smoke and CO2 detectors.
In the military, thankfully not to me. Have seen a dude's Aimpoint take a round, but he didn't even have a BUIS on his rifle to use. I never ran a BUIS with an ACOG given I couldn't take it off if I needed to anyway.
That said, I keep my front iron up to help prevent parallax issues as well as work in a pinch should my Aimpoint happen to fail.
*ETA: Until I was near the end of my career, I wasn't even in a unit that zeroed irons, and many of us just took them off.
For me, civilian use only, primarily for work at the range, varmints in the woods, and the one or two carbine courses I take every year. All red-dot-sights and I've had a mixture of Aimpoints and Eotechs with no failures over the last6 years. I don't even put irons on my rifles anymore and actually took them off of the SBR that I use the most.
Does bad weather count? Had to remove optics a couple of times and go to irons due to pouring rain. I treat a BUIS setup like an insurance policy, I know the chance I will really need them is tiny, but I want them there just in case.
I'll add that a consideration to a "sight going down" is a sight fogging over. If you have ever taken an optic equipped weapon out of a cool environment (a/c house, car) into hot, humid, and muggy conditions, you'll find that your fully functioning optic fogs over due to the temp difference between the optic and the outside.
And just wiping it away doesn't work, as it will fog back over until it heats up.
For this reason I think offset BUIS are the best, as they wont fog over and can be used even with an obscured primary optic.
I'll add that a consideration to a "sight going down" is a sight fogging over. If you have ever taken an optic equipped weapon out of a cool environment (a/c house, car) into hot, humid, and muggy conditions, you'll find that your fully functioning optic fogs over due to the temp difference between the optic and the outside.
And just wiping it away doesn't work, as it will fog back over until it heats up.
For this reason I think offset BUIS are the best, as they wont fog over and can be used even with an obscured primary optic.
Heard that in Alaska they either run offset or just plain irons for this exact reason, I can imagine going from middle of winter freezing to room temperature during an entry will fog things up pretty bad.
With an M21 equipped with an ART 1 telescope. Incoming fire (the kind you hear the "Snap - thump"). Once in the prone and seeking a target I found there was condensation inside the tube like looking into a green house window.
Scope came off, used the irons.
Before we got to our forward base for "Shock and Awe" from Bragg the C5 we were riding made a 1,000 foot descent in about five seconds. My M4 with EO went flying down the aisle. We tried to re-confirm zero once we arrived but I never trusted it to hold (it was all over the place). Glass came off, carry handle became my primary.
Anyone who goes into combat without a backup sight (glass or iron) is a fool. Bad enough to get yourself killed, but getting a buddy killed because your shit won't work is criminal.
Heard that in Alaska they either run offset or just plain irons for this exact reason, I can imagine going from middle of winter freezing to room temperature during an entry will fog things up pretty bad.
I was stationed there 03-07 and we had regular Aimpoints and BUIS.
edit: Good lord that makes me feel old.
I've had optics fog up rendering them useless until they warmed up, but luckily it was not when I needed to use 'em.
In ten years with Aimpoints and ACOGS I've broken two BUIS that I never needed and I ultimately decided to not even have them anymore.
Being in MN, I practiced a lot last year doing "move from home"/"bugout" drills to a spot on the far side of our acreage as a recon/rendezvous point where we have extra supplies and a vehicle year round.
We would practice by going out into the cold, quickly, and traverse through the snow to get to our location. Because I don't have much family that likes to participate, it was usually just a couple of us each time, but one of the things I was trying to get used to was going from climate to climate.
On our return, I would treat the home like a "new location" and practice optic transitions. During this time, I had .45 degree offsets, and those worked wonders for awhile. I switched to just a pop up set with a QD mount and realized near the end of winter, that I may just go irons only for this next winter.
Or, maybe, when I finally take the plunge and get a colt AR I will leave that irons only and keep another with my optics. Switch the rifle to the reasons, paint one greenish for the summer, grey/whites for the winter.
ETA:
I wanted to include, I have not been on the 2 way range, thankfully, but if I ever had to be in the winter, I would be looking at avoiding any type of optics issues. Battery freeze from cold, fogging, etc.
I had an Aimpoint sh#$ the bed in the middle of a "work day" in Iraq. I had a LMT fixed BUIS so it was a fast transition. If I did not have them I would have been in a bad way.
I will always have fixed irons if I am running any type of reflex sight.
ETA:
I wanted to include, I have not been on the 2 way range, thankfully, but if I ever had to be in the winter, I would be looking at avoiding any type of optics issues. Battery freeze from cold, fogging, etc.
Make sure you use Lithium batteries where available, they handle the cold like a champ. Especially Aimpoint M4 / Trijicon LED ACOG / VCOG users who need AA's.
snowdog650
07-14-16, 12:21
Considering that I was never issued an optic, I guess that counts as a failure.
Used irons exclusively as a 91B combat medic from 1991-1999.
I’ve used Aimpoints and even Eotechs, never a problem. But I changed batteries every few months. One thing I like about a 1-4 scope is you don’t even need a battery unless it’s very dark.
I agree with others that you should always have BUIS, regardless.
Anyone who goes into combat without a backup sight (glass or iron) is a fool. Bad enough to get yourself killed, but getting a buddy killed because your shit won't work is criminal.
I agree with that... the "mission drives the gear". Irons are superfluous for my "mission" which doesn't include "combat".
Eurodriver
07-14-16, 13:25
I carried my charging handle in an admin pouch.
I never needed it.
God bless you Trijicon.
I carried my charging handle in an admin pouch.
I never needed it.
God bless you Trijicon.
I've heard of keeping the carry handle in a pouch, but the charging handle? That's hardcore bro.
Keep the tank filled up, you never have to prime the pump.
Eurodriver
07-14-16, 14:32
I've heard of keeping the carry handle in a pouch, but the charging handle? That's hardcore bro.
You didn't know the hole in the front of the charging handle doubles as a peep sight?
TacMedic556
07-14-16, 14:47
ABSOLUTELY. This situation alone proved to me the absolute imperativeness of BUIS -
Setting: Northwest Montana remote area near the Cabinet Mountains Hunting Season - Temperature 34-38 degrees, light drizzle earlier, damp, overcast, wet heavy with moisture air and fog.
We were stalking game in a creek bottom area thick with old growth Ponderosa and Larch. The banks of the stream were lined with Willow. I came to a bank that dropped down to the creek and offered a somewhat commanding view of the upstream area we were working into. At about a hundred yards out I spotted a group of Whitetail deer and took a position of cover in the trees immediately behind me. I flipped up my scope caps and peered through my scope - FOG. Moisture droplets and condensation had accumulated on everything, every part of the rifle. You could not see anything, even two feet away in the scope. I wiped feverishly with any cloth I could find on me loose enough to reach the lenses. Nope. Smeared it all around. No visual still. This went on. I finally dug an MRE out, opened the packet containing the dry tissue and used that. Still it did little and even after clearing the lenses of exterior moisture, the fog and air was so laden with minuscule droplets of water that it immediately would find a way to collect on the surface again eliminating the ability to use the optic.
Had I been in combat, a gunfight, had the deer been armed threats, I would have been combat ineffective with my rifle. There was no sight picture, no reticle, no ability to issue accurate fire. This situation reiterated to me the need to have a back up iron sight system on a fighting gun. Yes I was just hunting, NO I did not have irons. If I did have irons, I would have removed the scope and continued to hunt with the irons only. Instead I watched as the deer wandered off. Had there been a nice buck in there, even at 50 yards I would not have been able to send it at him.
Always have BUIS.
Inasmuch as I haven't been able to USE irons in some time now the question is academic. (And those of you not there yet--you will be, you will be...) I bolted a 1.5X compact ACOG on a short AR ten years ago and haven't looked back. No batteries, period, no issues. Same with a 3x compact ACOG; boringly reliable.
I should miss irons--but I don't.
Make sure you use Lithium batteries where available, they handle the cold like a champ. Especially Aimpoint M4 / Trijicon LED ACOG / VCOG users who need AA's.
My experience with lithium batteries has been the opposite for some reason. In both weapon lights and handheld flashlights they go dead quickly when stored in a car or garage during the winter months. Maybe I just have too much negative energy?
To me, as a civilian BUIS are a cheap insurance policy.
If I am in a class and my Aimpoint goes down, I don't have to miss class time trying to figure out if its the battery or the unit. Just flip the sights up and carry on.
If the SHTF, its good to know that I have a backup.
Its just like CCW, you hope you never need it, but should you need it, its nice to have it. No? I can't imagine the harm of having back up sights, they aren't that heavy, don't take up a lot of real estate on the rail and they aren't even that expensive, so why not?
A guy in my unit took a round to the Aimpoint during a gunfight once. He used his back ups for the rest of the night.
Also in 2005 we had a couple guys in my platoon using EOTechs. Both went tits up outside the wire. Luckily not during a fight. I do believe every EOTech we had in my company, probably between 6 and 10, went down throughout that deployment.
My ACOG held up like a champ.
My experience with lithium batteries has been the opposite for some reason. In both weapon lights and handheld flashlights they go dead quickly when stored in a car or garage during the winter months. Maybe I just have too much negative energy?
Weird...Ever since I switched all my AA and AAA batteries to quality lithiums, I no longer have to deal with leaky and dead batteries in stored equipment. For high use / frequent use stuff I purchase bulk Energizer Industrial alkaline.
Here is a cool read for battery nerds: https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/batteries.html
You didn't know the hole in the front of the charging handle doubles as a peep sight?
Rail mounted charging handles are now a thing.
Thanks Eurodriver.
ABSOLUTELY. This situation alone proved to me the absolute imperativeness of BUIS -
Setting: Northwest Montana remote area near the Cabinet Mountains Hunting Season - Temperature 34-38 degrees, light drizzle earlier, damp, overcast, wet heavy with moisture air and fog.
We were stalking game in a creek bottom area thick with old growth Ponderosa and Larch. The banks of the stream were lined with Willow. I came to a bank that dropped down to the creek and offered a somewhat commanding view of the upstream area we were working into. At about a hundred yards out I spotted a group of Whitetail deer and took a position of cover in the trees immediately behind me. I flipped up my scope caps and peered through my scope - FOG. Moisture droplets and condensation had accumulated on everything, every part of the rifle. You could not see anything, even two feet away in the scope. I wiped feverishly with any cloth I could find on me loose enough to reach the lenses. Nope. Smeared it all around. No visual still. This went on. I finally dug an MRE out, opened the packet containing the dry tissue and used that. Still it did little and even after clearing the lenses of exterior moisture, the fog and air was so laden with minuscule droplets of water that it immediately would find a way to collect on the surface again eliminating the ability to use the optic.
Had I been in combat, a gunfight, had the deer been armed threats, I would have been combat ineffective with my rifle. There was no sight picture, no reticle, no ability to issue accurate fire. This situation reiterated to me the need to have a back up iron sight system on a fighting gun. Yes I was just hunting, NO I did not have irons. If I did have irons, I would have removed the scope and continued to hunt with the irons only. Instead I watched as the deer wandered off. Had there been a nice buck in there, even at 50 yards I would not have been able to send it at him.
Always have BUIS.
There's an old snorkeling trick I learned from my Dad that I've mentioned once on here. If you spit on your glass and distribute it around the surface, and it'll more or less prevent fogging and condensation. That's probably not good for the coating on the lens, but it'll work in a pinch. I also don't know if it'll affect your zero. It probably will, but maybe not enough to miss a deer at 50-100m.
The reason? Idk, probably because it more-or-less coats the surface with a layer of viscous but clear liquid. When more condensation forms on it, it just flows into the already-present liquid and evens out. You'll have to re-apply every so often, of course.
"To me, as a civilian BUIS are a cheap insurance policy"
Obviously you don't have BOBRO backup sights.
sandsunsurf
07-14-16, 19:24
I haven't personally needed them because my work rifle wears an Aimpoint. But I've seen EOTechs with dead batteries at critical times. I had the only long cover on an apartment door with an armed and barricaded kidnapping suspect inside. Another guy comes up with his rifle to relieve me. I start looking for a better position to watch the door, and I see the other cop looking at his rifle and not the door. After about ten seconds of pushing buttons and turning his rifle sideways a couple times, he flips up his back up irons. He told me later his battery had died.
I also pulled a 37mm less lethal out of a sgt's ride once, only to find it useless because, again, EOTech had dead batteries.
EOTech sights are fine for certain missions- like the guys that change their batteries religiously before a mission. They have no place riding in a patrol car daily, but rarely used, then having a dead battery when it's needed.
Regarding what people said about fogging, this is why I like offest BUIS. Its not just for 3-gun. Fogged optics makes using BUIS that require a view through said fogged optic a real bitch.
multistage
07-14-16, 22:28
I dunno.
Having never been in armed combat, what good is my advice? But I rather like having a backup for my Aimpoint than not having one.
Howdy,
I carried my charging handle in an admin pouch.
I never needed it.
God bless you Trijicon.
Fixed it for you.
Regarding what people said about fogging, this is why I like offest BUIS. Its not just for 3-gun. Fogged optics makes using BUIS that require a view through said fogged optic a real bitch.
It's an interesting point about the fogging, my main AR has fixed front and rear irons and a QD aimpoint, you could always detatch the aimpoint if it got fogged up, but offset irons would be faster with the added benefit of not having to fumble with a loose optic. This thread has me reconsidering offset irons.
PrivateCitizen
07-15-16, 10:15
I dunno.
Having never been in armed combat, what good is my advice? But I rather like having a backup for my Aimpoint than not having one.
Thanks.
The question was not whether we should have them (I certainly do). I've been trying to gauge the actual specified usage as a backup, particularly on duty or while deployed.
PrivateCitizen
07-15-16, 10:17
It's an interesting point about the fogging, my main AR has fixed front and rear irons and a QD aimpoint, you could always detatch the aimpoint if it got fogged up, but offset irons would be faster with the added benefit of not having to fumble with a loose optic. This thread has me reconsidering offset irons.
Agree. I have never really considered BUIS as being offset … just seemed too cool-guy. I have mostly DD1.5 fixed. But an optic fogging certainly makes a case.
Dang it.
SniperOverwatch
07-15-16, 10:25
That's why my optic is on a QD mount.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ChoppinFatTony
07-15-16, 10:26
I have a combined 42 months deployed as a Grunt/Sniper during my 10 year career between 03 to 13. Never had a issue with a optic going down nor did I witness or knew of one being made useless, whether from small arms, ied's, fall's etc.
ColtSeavers
07-15-16, 11:12
My POG unit never had or got optics (Germany '01-'05, Iraq '03-'04) so I cannot comment on military use/need of buis personally.
For my own personal guns, I only have BUIS on one AR now. It's my frankenbeater that is currently sporting and old TRS-25 that, like the frankenbeater, cannot be killed. Despite that, as it is an optic that only functions if it has power, unlike an etched reticle optic as I have on all my other ARs bar one with irons only, I keep BUIS on it.
While I have never had my Aimpoint go down, I have used my BUIS in a pinch at a carbine class. While shooting that morning the sky was heavily overcast and rather dark. Enough such that I had to turn the brightness down on my aimpoint. However, during lunch the sun broke through and it became a picture perfect day. When I brought my carbine up for that first engagement after lunch I quickly realized that the bright sunlight was completely washing out my dim red dot. I quickly transistioned to my fixed BUIS and finished the engagement.
This was completely my fault for not checking my sight prior to shooting - lesson learned. But I also learned that I always want to have the redundancy that BUIS provide.
For my first two deployments, my only option was irons. In the middle of my third deployment, I was given an Acog. Don't get me wrong...that thing was tits, and I own one today, but at that point, having never used one, in the middle of a deployment to Ramadi, Iraq was not the place to figure it out.
I am curious how many, while deployed or were in service, have had to switch to backup irons from an optic because of failure (or some other circumstance).
Their use is obvious … but anymore what is the actual likelihood?
I appreciate the feedback anyone can offer.
Yes, on a hostage scene. I arrived, punched the button on my Eotech, and found it was dead. Not batteries being dead, but being dead dead. I switched to irons.
I think a lot of people have had optics fail due to battery life, but I have broken Eotechs, Aimpoint, Trijicons and BUIS. I don't think I'm unusually hard on equipment, but it is always possible that I'm just a clumsy ogre. However I do like to picture myself as suave and a gentle soul...
MountainRaven
07-16-16, 19:57
I'm curios to hear about this, too, especially those who were issued a relatively reliable optic. I've seen quite a few photos of some special dudes overseas running optics without BUIS. IIRC, Pat Rogers kind of thought they were superfluous given the track record of sights such as Aimpoints.
And yet his guns all had fixed front sights.
:p
I am curious how many, while deployed or were in service, have had to switch to backup irons from an optic because of failure (or some other circumstance).
Their use is obvious … but anymore what is the actual likelihood?
I appreciate the feedback anyone can offer.
Yes. One was with a confounded EO-Tech and the batteries died. Go figure. The second time was coming out of a cold patrol car on a humid Florida night. I could not see anything due to the Aimpoint fogging over. I have since went back to irons. While I do like Aimpoints I've never had irons fail me yet
Dan
This is either a great "never buy EOTech" thread. Or the most clever marketing Aimpoint has ever had.
Used an ACOG without BUIS for 2 tours in Iraq never had an issue.
This is either a great "never buy EOTech" thread. Or the most clever marketing Aimpoint has ever had.
You obviously did not read my post.......
I have a combined 42 months deployed as a Grunt/Sniper during my 10 year career between 03 to 13. Never had a issue with a optic going down nor did I witness or knew of one being made useless, whether from small arms, ied's, fall's etc.
There is an SME here that I know had his ACOG shot in Iraq. I broke a scope on a bad fast rope in. It happens more then you think it does.
Almost every Elcan I saw we broke in some way. I saw a bunch of Aimpoints fail, not dead batteries. EOTechs that failed to work. Not having a back up for something that important is not a good practice.
Schmalkald
07-17-16, 09:47
I've had to use them when I had an optic mount go south on me.
But as to the question of to have them or not, if ever this cliche applied, it is now:
Better to have them and never need them, then need them and not have them.
:)
Regarding what people said about fogging, this is why I like offest BUIS. Its not just for 3-gun. Fogged optics makes using BUIS that require a view through said fogged optic a real bitch.
My point exactly.
BlackWatch16
07-17-16, 10:28
I was stationed there 03-07 and we had regular Aimpoints and BUIS.
Yeah I've never heard of this either, unless you're talking about LE in Alaska. Never seen any conventional army unit with offset irons.
And yes, I unfortunately had to use buis for real on 2 or 3 occasions because my issued EOTech started having issues with the battery connectors and would cut out randomly. At the time, my only options were EOTech and acog, and acog was not a good fit for the mission. Most of our old EOTechs had the same issue which is why I started to keep my rear sight up all the time. Once we got elcans, it quickly became my favorite despite the weight.
You obviously did not read my post.......
I'm well aware aimpoints can fail, or any optic can fog up.
Going through and reading all the posts in this thread that say EOTECH, it's disproportionately high enough that it should encourage anyone to be wary of the product.
556BlackRifle
07-17-16, 11:31
In my day ACOGs didn't exist. Irons all the way.
Find ManBearPig!
07-17-16, 21:08
There is an SME here that I know had his ACOG shot in Iraq.
Wow, I imagine that's not a fun way to loose an optic. Out of curiosity, do you by chance know how the scope held up?
Not having a back up for something that important is not a good practice.
I remember reading a series of articles a while back, I believe by a Special Forces member, talking about how the common outfitting for the various M4's he saw as well as his own personal M4 gradually changed and evolved over the course of his multiple deployments. One interesting struck me is that while he (understandably) repeated this line about the importance of a backup to something critical, he noted that he believed in this day and age, a "back up sight" did not automatically mean irons of some sort- it just meant there was another sight, of any reasonably durable kind, on the rifle that could be used should the main optic go down. So, for example, if you where running a magnified optic as your primary sight, but say had an offset Aimpoint Micro on the gun as well, then you would not need a BUIS system of any sort. I also believe he also always had at least one sight on the rifle that did not depend on batteries to operate.
So, my question is, does this seem like a reasonable approach to take? Or are other issues like fogging prevalent enough irons should be seen as a "must have" still?
BlackWatch16
07-17-16, 21:39
I remember reading a series of articles a while back, I believe by a Special Forces member, talking about how the common outfitting for the various M4's he saw as well as his own personal M4 gradually changed and evolved over the course of his multiple deployments. One interesting struck me is that while he (understandably) repeated this line about the importance of a backup to something critical, he noted that he believed in this day and age, a "back up sight" did not automatically mean irons of some sort- it just meant there was another sight, of any reasonably durable kind, on the rifle that could be used should the main optic go down. So, for example, if you where running a magnified optic as your primary sight, but say had an offset Aimpoint Micro on the gun as well, then you would not need a BUIS system of any sort. I also believe he also always had at least one sight on the rifle that did not depend on batteries to operate.
So, my question is, does this seem like a reasonable approach to take? Or are other issues like fogging prevalent enough irons should be seen as a "must have" still?
This type of sighting system, usually employed on a scoped rifle, does not actually qualify as a backup sight. It is more of a "right tool for the job" approach best suited for 5.56 SPR rifles and 7.62 DMR or sniper support rifles. Anybody operating in an environment with the potential of fast engagements within 100m with a rifle that has a magnified optic needs to also have a close quarters RDS mounted either on top of the scope or at a 45. Even conventional army snipers have been fielded this accessory kit for a few years now. Iron sights on these guns, although nice to have, are of limited value considering you have to completely remove the scope in order to use them. However, if someone actually is in that situation, doesn't have a standard M4 or patrol carbine with them, and still has to complete the mission, then it's better than nothing. They have certainly encountered numerous problems along the way though and at that point are probably just thankful to be alive and/or uninjured.
But the bottom line truth remains...a serious combat/duty carbine needs to have a set of irons. Period.
SilverBullet432
07-17-16, 22:38
Took my AR hunting one year with the 512 attached. Left if out and on in 10 degree weather. Batteries took a dump that night. MBUS PRO came in handy that morning!
chitownpig
07-18-16, 01:02
I was involved in an on duty shooting last year and had my Eotech cut out after the first round fired. Batteries were brand new as they were literally changed that morning. Luckily I had a pair of fixed daniel defense irons and was able to transition about as easily as I could given the situation. Needless to say the Eotech is gone and was replaced by an Aimpoint T2.
I've been saying for about ten years that training with your buis is the only useful way to train with an Eotech.
Mysteryman
07-18-16, 16:44
I've been saying for about ten years that training with your buis is the only useful way to train with an Eotech.
HAHAHAHA.... Pure gold.
MM
Not exactly what you initially asked about - but I did have an Aimpoint battery crap out during a class. Transition to BUs was seamless, btw.
john
Yep. I had a Bushnell TRS die on me halfway through the first stage in match a couple years go. Was setup as absolute cowitness and used it as a ghost ring with the front sight for the rest of that very short stage. Ran buis the rest of the match. Had picked up the TRS to use in between selling the t-1 and getting a ta33 acog.
Odd because that particular TRS was fine for a year sitting atop an Ultimate rail on my AK. Moved it to the AR and poof, died. Maybe the AK mostly killed it and it was going to go anyway or the fact that it was a really cold night in November.
chitownpig
07-18-16, 18:14
I've been saying for about ten years that training with your buis is the only useful way to train with an Eotech.
Sometimes you have to work with what you have on hand.
Schmalkald
07-18-16, 18:14
No matter how rugged, reliable and otherwise any optic is, the fact is that things break. Why wouldn't you have BUIS? Makes no sense to me.
At work and while training I have experienced issues with heavy rain and condensation. I run a fixed rear buis on both of my work rifles. Also experienced the Aimpoint intensity knob being twisted while running and found it down when attempting to run HR drill. I immediately transitioned to backup DD rear buis without a second or two lost.
I remember reading a series of articles a while back, I believe by a Special Forces member, talking about how the common outfitting for the various M4's he saw as well as his own personal M4 gradually changed and evolved over the course of his multiple deployments. One interesting struck me is that while he (understandably) repeated this line about the importance of a backup to something critical, he noted that he believed in this day and age, a "back up sight" did not automatically mean irons of some sort- it just meant there was another sight, of any reasonably durable kind, on the rifle that could be used should the main optic go down. So, for example, if you where running a magnified optic as your primary sight, but say had an offset Aimpoint Micro on the gun as well, then you would not need a BUIS system of any sort. I also believe he also always had at least one sight on the rifle that did not depend on batteries to operate.
So, my question is, does this seem like a reasonable approach to take? Or are other issues like fogging prevalent enough irons should be seen as a "must have" still?
This type of sighting system, usually employed on a scoped rifle, does not actually qualify as a backup sight. It is more of a "right tool for the job" approach best suited for 5.56 SPR rifles and 7.62 DMR or sniper support rifles. Anybody operating in an environment with the potential of fast engagements within 100m with a rifle that has a magnified optic needs to also have a close quarters RDS mounted either on top of the scope or at a 45. Even conventional army snipers have been fielded this accessory kit for a few years now. Iron sights on these guns, although nice to have, are of limited value considering you have to completely remove the scope in order to use them. However, if someone actually is in that situation, doesn't have a standard M4 or patrol carbine with them, and still has to complete the mission, then it's better than nothing. They have certainly encountered numerous problems along the way though and at that point are probably just thankful to be alive and/or uninjured.
But the bottom line truth remains...a serious combat/duty carbine needs to have a set of irons. Period.
There have been a lot of articles and books coming out in the last few years that have guys in SOCOM units mentioning why BUIS is not important to them and why they don't run them. There's various reasons (optics are way more reliable, operating mostly at night and the optic *is* the backup to the laser, etc, etc…). And if you look at most of the photos of SOCOM units in theater or training, it definitely holds true that seeing a full set of irons is rare (and even then, who knows if they're zeroed or used).
BUT, as many of the articles mention, this really has to do more with how those units operate and not necessarily if whether or not they're a good idea. In many cases the carbine is not their primary offensive tool. They might have immediate access to other weapon systems, air support, and operating within a group, etc…
That's a totally different scenario than, say, LEO, where you might be out on a call alone, backup minutes away, and your carbine is your primary tool. Having an optic go down in that situation is very different than in a military situation, or a civilian situation, etc…
Just really seems like the circumstances should dictate whether they're necessary or not.
I've personally never needed them.
My T1 crapped out on me in the middle of a drill during a carbine class once. I use fixed BUIS w/ a lower 1/3 co-witness, so I just transitioned and finished the drill. Turns out that the positive terminal broke loose under the battery. I repositioned it, put the battery back in, and it still works today. I REALLY ought to send it in and get it fixed, though! :)
Coming from an air conditioned classroom to a hot and humid range will make most optics fog in short order. Nothing you can do until the glass comes up to temp. Makes you realize the utility of folding offset irons.
*ETA: Until I was near the end of my career, I wasn't even in a unit that zeroed irons, and many of us just took them off.
Opposite for me, optics were getting big as I was getting out. My first deployment was to Bosnia, with a M16A2.
There have been a lot of articles and books coming out in the last few years that have guys in SOCOM units mentioning why BUIS is not important to them and why they don't run them. There's various reasons (optics are way more reliable, operating mostly at night and the optic *is* the backup to the laser, etc, etc…). And if you look at most of the photos of SOCOM units in theater or training, it definitely holds true that seeing a full set of irons is rare (and even then, who knows if they're zeroed or used).
BUT, as many of the articles mention, this really has to do more with how those units operate and not necessarily if whether or not they're a good idea. In many cases the carbine is not their primary offensive tool. They might have immediate access to other weapon systems, air support, and operating within a group, etc…
That's a totally different scenario than, say, LEO, where you might be out on a call alone, backup minutes away, and your carbine is your primary tool. Having an optic go down in that situation is very different than in a military situation, or a civilian situation, etc…
Just really seems like the circumstances should dictate whether they're necessary or not.
I've personally never needed them.
Ive read a lot of articles and posts by SOCOM guys over the years and they often disagree with each other over these types of things. I remember a thread here about an article written by an Army SF dude outlining why he prefered a 10.3 inch gun with a suppressor over a 14.5 inch gun. That started a huge debate over whether you want better terminal ballistics at range or supprossion.
On another forum is a highly regarded Army SOCOM guys who doesnt use BUIS. He said something along the lines of "If your Aimpoint fails its going to be in the thousands of rounds of training, not the 10s of rounds of combat". While I disagree with him on the topic of BUIS, he has far more experience than I and his statement has some merit to it.
I also remember reading an article or forum, cant remember which, where a Marine (either MARSOC or Recon/Raider) said he only carried 4 mags out on patrol. That was ridiculous to me.
Tzintzuntzan
07-20-16, 02:29
I had to use back up sights at the range when my Eotech wasn't bright enough to show up on target. Needless to say I recently sent it to L3 for a refund. Pretty sure this won't happen if I get an aimpoint but the irons are much more accurate so I won't take them off.
dirkmagurk
07-20-16, 10:51
If the rifle might be used defensively having a quality set of sights in addition to whatever optic you're using is a smart move.
On another forum is a highly regarded Army SOCOM guys who doesnt use BUIS. He said something along the lines of "If your Aimpoint fails its going to be in the thousands of rounds of training, not the 10s of rounds of combat". While I disagree with him on the topic of BUIS, he has far more experience than I and his statement has some merit to it.
And yet, someone does win the lottery.
I understand why some people say they are not needed. Optics are awesome nowadays, but a set of MBUS Pro's weighs 3.2oz. When Uncle Sam is paying, why wouldn't you have them?
The Resistance
07-20-16, 20:23
You only need BUIS if you believe in extra magazines, extra ammo, extra batteries and spare parts. If you don't need any of that stuff you don't need BUIS.
On another forum is a highly regarded Army SOCOM guys who doesnt use BUIS. He said something along the lines of "If your Aimpoint fails its going to be in the thousands of rounds of training, not the 10s of rounds of combat". While I disagree with him on the topic of BUIS, he has far more experience than I and his statement has some merit to it.
Anyone who has experienced combat knows that you can't afford to play the odds when it comes to your gear. Who cares if your optic is more likely to give out on you on the range? It only has to happen once when it's for real to put a crimp in your day. Given how light and unobtrusive back-up irons are (or back-up plastic if you're a Magpul fan), why not have them on your rifle? Yeah you may never need to use them, but you probably won't ever need to use your seat belt either. But if you do you'll be damn glad you were.
Gatorshark
07-20-16, 23:34
My irons have never cracked, fogged up or lost power.
Another thing about having BUIS is that you can quickly verify that your optic is still zeroed (or close enough to it) after removing it for cleaning or if the rifle took a hard fall.
this really has to do more with how those units operate and not necessarily if whether or not they're a good idea.
I think this is key. Mark Owen has stated that in his 13 deployments, he's never had BUIS on his guns. Of course, the mission parameters and duration of an elite SEAL team probably varies drastically to Pvt. Snuffy patrolling the Korengal for months at a time.
Larry Vickers said somewhere that he advocated BUIS on all ARs; actually used them with the RDS as the confirmation of POA (I am paraphrasing). I will try to google it to see if I can find that information...I can't recall if it was an article or what.
Larry Vickers said somewhere that he advocated BUIS on all ARs; actually used them with the RDS as the confirmation of POA (I am paraphrasing). I will try to google it to see if I can find that information...I can't recall if it was an article or what.
All you need to do is look at his rifle, it carries BUIS.
waffentomas
07-21-16, 09:26
We didn't have any fancy optics when I was in for the M-16; my BUIS were my PIS. When I was the DM, I carried a M21 with a Schmidt & Bender 10x which never failed me.
I have seen ACOG's fogged up close to 1 out of 10 of the (issued ones) rain. fogging on Aimpoints too and battery contact failures on my 552 EOTec fixed that with 100 mph tape. Fogged up due to rain ect. Seen issued back up sights fail and fall off, I will keep and have back up sights for any oh crap rifle I own and use. My duty rifle has 552 on it (not my choice) wont fit in rack with backup sight.. kind of bad idea not to expect them to never fail. Cheap insurance having one. My SCUBA regulator has 2 ways to get air out of the tank in to me.... life support equates to a requirement to me.
Yes I have seen the need for them and used them
Opposite for me, optics were getting big as I was getting out. My first deployment was to Bosnia, with a M16A2.
Trust me, I am not proud of the lack of use of irons with our Aimpoints. When I was a young Joe, I just did what I was told and didn't know any better.
With the ACOG, we didn't have QD mounts, so a lot of guys (like me) took off the BUIS so we could mount our optic further back on the receiver since we couldn't take the optic off if we needed to anyway.
I won't say if it was right or wrong, as I have thankfully never needed back up sights in a firefight and had a mostly drama free career with my equipment. Hell, I've done first aid and gone hands on more than I've fired a rifle. But now that I'm out, all of my guns have irons to supplement their optics and QD mounts. It's cheap insurance and now that I have the choice, I choose to have them.
Better to have and not need and all that jazz.
I've had to use my BUIS both in training / qualification and on duty - every time due to Failures or dead batteries with an EO-Tech. We issued Eo-Tech 552's for about 10 years and finally dumped them for H-1's.
I wouldn't have a serious use rifle without some type of back up sight system, whether irons, a mini RDS or a vis laser.
Trust me, I am not proud of the lack of use of irons with our Aimpoints. When I was a young Joe, I just did what I was told and didn't know any better.
With the ACOG, we didn't have QD mounts, so a lot of guys (like me) took off the BUIS so we could mount our optic further back on the receiver since we couldn't take the optic off if we needed to anyway.
I won't say if it was right or wrong, as I have thankfully never needed back up sights in a firefight and had a mostly drama free career with my equipment. Hell, I've done first aid and gone hands on more than I've fired a rifle. But now that I'm out, all of my guns have irons to supplement their optics and QD mounts. It's cheap insurance and now that I have the choice, I choose to have them.
Better to have and not need and all that jazz.
The ACOG works well with a Mini RDS at 45 Degrees. Force Recon was running this type set up. IME the Mini RDS is much easier to use effectively at 45 degrees than irons.
40569
The ACOG works well with a Mini RDS at 45 Degrees. Force Recon was running this type set up. IME the Mini RDS is much easier to use effectively at 45 degrees than irons.
40569
Offset RDS' are definitely easier to use than irons, however conventional units do not have access to that type of setup.
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