Sig External extractors?

[HK45]

I had a hankering for a Sig P220 with SRT trigger but see pretty much everything has external extractors now. I see no discussion of the external extractors on the Sig Forum which is pretty surprising to me. I find it disturbing given the ex-Kimber guy who runs Sig may be doing this as the second coming of external extractors that failed at Kimber. plus they look ugly and kind of ruin the lines of the Sigs i have seen them on. Anyone have experience with them or heard about them?

[John Hearne]

Short Answer:
Trust me, you want the external extractor. Sig has had huge problems with the internal extractor that comes in their stainless 45 slide.
Every other pistol in their line has an external extractor now and Sig knows how to make them work.

Long Answer
Sig has had a lot a parts quality issues and the internal extractor is one of them. Apparently, Sig has been unable to properly tune the extractor lately. If they go one way (stiff), it causes feeding problems, if they go the other(soft), the extractor fails early.

My first P220ST (with the unique rail) has run like a top - I have never had an extraction issues with it. My second P220ST has had very intermitent problems - enough that I still feel comfortable carrying it. My most recent P220ST was their "Match" version. It ran great for the first 700-800 rounds then it started to double feed. It was sent back to Sig and had the extractor replaced. The new extractor lasted 700-800 rounds and then started to double feed. I've since pulled that slide out of service and am awaiting Bruce Gray's new redesigned version.

Sig's early internal extractors worked great because they were firmly anchored within the breach block. If you look at the new internal extractor, there is nothing but open space below it. Thus the extractor is having to hold itself in and extract the case. Sig just can't make it work with their current parts provider.

[HK45]

I have several P220ST's with no issue that have a pretty fair number of rounds through them. But i am aware that some people had problems. Why Sig can't make something work now that used to work for a lot of years doesn't make much sense to me. Do you have experience with the external extractors or any broader knowledge of how well they have been working? it kind of sounds like you are recommending the because of issues with the internal extractors on the ST's. Thanks.

[ToddG]

SIG has had problems with the internal extractor on stainless P220 slides since day one. I had one of the very earliest Picatinny-style P220ST guns in the U.S. and it ran very well for many rounds, but once that first extractor started to get wonky it never ran right again. At the same time, Ernest Langdon's personal P220ST (which had the older proprietary rail, I believe) was having extractor issues non-stop. He used to try to fix the problem by re-heat treating them in his kitchen oven.

SIG has lost some major LE customers because of the problem. It took them many years to admit a problem existed even as they quietly swapped out big agencies (such a a huge state agency in Louisiana) free new non-.45 guns in exchange for their failing P220ST's.

The first time it was suggested that all P220 slide production shift to the stainless slide, testing showed dismal performance and the idea was scrapped. Then a couple years later, the idea popped up again and the same tests were successful.

Once every P220 leaving the factory had that weird unsupported internal extractor -- a system that was adopted based on the extractor in sigpro P2340, P2009, and P2022 pistols -- the problems began to increase dramatically.

Late last year the problem reached a crescendo. Simultaneously, a number of things happened.

First, after years of lobbying, SIG was able to convince the politicians in its home state of New Hampshire to force the state police into SIG P220 pistols (they'd been carrying S&W 3rd gen .45's). The new P220's suffered a variety of problems practically from day one. A combination of poor customer service and an inability to fix the problem led the NHSP to dump the SIGs and buy M&P45's.

Second, the problems became more frequent with changes in part vendors and QC processes. One hundred perfect guns would go out the door, then a run of 50 that simply would not function properly no matter what was done to them. A lot of these dysfunctional guns landed in the hands of SIGforum members, and many long threads were devoted to the problem and SIG's refusal to acknowledge it.

Third, top management at SIG decided to stop supporting the older stamped slide version of the P220, meaning that LE agencies with an existing inventory of those guns could no longer get certain key parts to keep the guns running ... instead they were told to buy new stainless slide P220's.

The combined severe market backlash led SIG finally to acknowledge the problem and expend engineering resources on a solution rather than just the various band-aids that had kept the gun limping along for five years. The result is the new external extractor. While I don't have any personal experience with it, in theory it should be pretty bullet proof as it operates on the same basic principle as the other P22x-series extractors.

[one]

I have a P226R which is, of course, external extractor. Head and shoulders above the old style for me because it's far easier to pop the extractor out for cleaning. Zero problems out of thousands of rounds.

As far as ruins the lines of the pistol. I'm sorry I just have to say "whatever" to that. I see that argument all the time against railed guns but as far as a tiny side piece being that much more or less asthetic I just can't get into it.

Then again the rails don't send me pining for the old non railed guns like so many people seem to on a certain sig forum dedicated to the pistols.

[HK45]

The way it looks is not a huge issue for me but I mentioned it anyway.

If I remember correctly the Kimber external extractors were not something you would want to fool with on your own. But these new Sig EE can be taken apart pretty easily? I'm surprised to see little discussion of the EE on the Sig forum.

I guess it doesn't matter because Todd just confirmed my suspicions about the state of things at Sig and I won't be buying one. Too bad because I used to love them. There is too much good competition out there for me to take a chance on anything like this now. Sig is going to, or is learning, that a good reputation is hard to gain and very easy to lose.

[varoadking]

I have a couple of P220 Carry's with internal extractors - a Stainless Elite and a DAK. Guess I got some of the good ones - no problems yet...

I find it interesting that polishing the feedramp is part of the work SiG does when a piece is returned for a reported extractor issue. I mirror polish all of my feedramps as soon as I get a piece home...all of them...

Makes you wonder...

[John Hearne]

Third, top management at SIG decided to stop supporting the older stamped slide version of the P220, meaning that LE agencies with an existing inventory of those guns could no longer get certain key parts to keep the guns running ... instead they were told to buy new stainless slide P220's.


What parts for the rolled steel slide guns aren't going to be available. This is the first I've heard of this and am curious. We're in the process of rewriting our LE Policy manual and that would be a great reason to look at another platform, like an M&P.

[ToddG]

Unless something has changed, the most critical part that they will no longer sell is the breech block.

http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/p220partlist.jpg

[cfrazier]

In reference to the breechblock. I had to send my P220 back to Sig for the breechblock failing. The front of the block was caved in and you could see where the primer cup had made a dent and the firing pin hole had rounded off and spalled. This 220 has about 20,000 rds through it. Sent it back and Sig fixed it and I had it back in under a week.