View Full Version : The new NZ service rifle
vicious_cb
07-14-16, 22:31
I know its old news that the NZ Defense Force adopted the LMT MRP as their new 5.56 service rifle, while not a fan of the MRP series myself due to weight, what I did find interesting were the actual details of the rifle. The lower has all ambi controls from selector lever to charging handle, it also comes standard with a 2-stage trigger and even has a QD end plate. The 16" barrel is midlength gas with a surefire warcomp which is pretty surprising since western militaries typically do not issue any sort of comp as a standard issue muzzle device on a service rifle. The special forces upper receiver is pretty similar except it has a 14.5" barrel and the LMT enhanced BCG while the standard issue upper only has regular LMT bolt carrier, perhaps due to cost? M3 pmags as standard issue is always a plus but the most surprising revelation is that they are using Mk262 mod 1 as their standard issue round! Im not sure how they are able to afford all this, but then again they do seem to be issuing best of the best in terms of service rifles. What I can take from all this is that the NZ Defense Force really did their homework and looked at their rifle as an actual system rather than just a rifle. Everything from base rifle, controls, mags, ammo seems carefully chosen. I really cant think of any other western country with a better service rifle at the moment. I wish our military can take a page or two from their procurement branch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF23Y6Mj65A
I wonder what their thought process was with sticking a 16" barrel on a 9" rail while putting a 14.5" barrel on a ~13" rail.
Is that also the fabled closed-tine Warcomp I spy on the 14.5"?
Now we see where all the Warcomps went LOL.
snowdog650
07-14-16, 23:24
I think the fact that the total active force is under 12,000 troops and total military personnel (including reserves) is under 16,000 explains how they can afford the weapon systems.
I wonder what their thought process was with sticking a 16" barrel on a 9" rail while putting a 14.5" barrel on a ~13" rail
Bayonet
I want the carbine one. Because LMT.
Won't be long before M4Carbineros will be asking what parts will be needed to clone these rifles
Is that just a standard US M9 bayonet?
Eurodriver
07-15-16, 06:52
I freaking love me some bayonet!
Appears that bayonet lug is mounted on the side of the barrel, not the bottom. Is that intentional so that someone can also use it in a 'slashing' movement, where the blade of the bayonet is horizontal?
methical20
07-15-16, 07:50
It allows for mounting M203 in tandem with the bayonet.
Appears that bayonet lug is mounted on the side of the barrel, not the bottom. Is that intentional so that someone can also use it in a 'slashing' movement, where the blade of the bayonet is horizontal?
scoutfsu99
07-15-16, 08:33
Not a terrible choice at all.
Bayonet
Duh. Right. :rolleyes:
A part of me was kind of hoping that they would've spec'ed a lighter barrel, so us consumers could've reaped the benefits of potential overruns. :cool:
Still, huge props to the folks over at LMT for producing a damn fine quality weapon and winning the contract.
Won't be long before M4Carbineros will be asking what parts will be needed to clone these rifles
Bu-bu-but the MRP is too heavy bro!
It allows for mounting M203 in tandem with the bayonet.
Thank you! I learned something ...
Spin Drift
07-15-16, 11:59
Instead of an expensive 5 years study/procurement program, the Kiwi's grabbed a known product (they also are pretty happy the MWS) from LMT, added a couple of fine tune tweaks, and are rocking a new rifle, without a bunch of fiddle-f$%^&*#$ around.
Good for them, good for their troops. Straight shooting, boys.
Personally, I would have looked at KAC, but that is another argument...
KalashniKEV
07-15-16, 13:59
I'd be all over that MRP in either 11.5" or preferably 12.5"
I'd be all over that MRP in either 11.5" or preferably 12.5"
They make a 13" gas barrel, homes.
They also do piston conversions but meh.
With the MRP you can swap barrels pretty easy.
I have I guess you could say, the 6920 equivalent of an LMT and it rules. I would like to get an MRP one just for the monolothic rail and so forth.
methical20
07-15-16, 14:27
The 13" barrels are .308 only though, correct?
This is why everyone should own an MRP and MWS. Covers a whole lot of calibers and barrel lengths. :)
10.5" MRP
http://i.imgur.com/BmLp5q4.jpg
16" lightweight MWS
http://i.imgur.com/7uzFYRu.jpg
KalashniKEV
07-15-16, 14:43
With the MRP you can swap barrels pretty easy.
Hmmm... that does look pretty easy.
Ha. Just bought one in 14.5".
https://www.rainierarms.com/upper-lmt-monolithic-rail-platform-mrp-cqb-coupon-special-6176
(Trump's campaign suicide has made me extremely impulsive...)
Hmmm... that does look pretty easy.
Ha. Just bought one in 14.5".
https://www.rainierarms.com/upper-lmt-monolithic-rail-platform-mrp-cqb-coupon-special-6176
(Trump's campaign suicide has made me extremely impulsive...)
YOLO
I been snatching up stuff myself.
I'm not panicking but I'm not naive
The 13" barrels are .308 only though, correct?
CORRECTION:
The 12.5 barrel is 6.8 only it seems
The Kiwis could probably choose, buy and issue a handgun to their entire armed forces in the time it takes us to write an RFP and waste 100 mil in the process.
Serious Account
07-15-16, 21:42
Does the 14 in version has Carbine length gas? It looks considerably shorter than the 16 in version.
And why not use the enhanced carrier in the 16 in version too?
CORRECTION:
The 12.5 barrel is 6.8 only it seems
Piston sbr is also 12.5".
MountainRaven
07-16-16, 01:06
Personally, I would have looked at KAC, but that is another argument...
According to the video, they did look at KAC.
Is they did look at KAC it wasn't for long. The companies involved in the trial stage:
Beretta New Zealand Limited
Česká zbrojovka a.s.
Colt Canada Corporation
FN HERSTAL
STEYR MANNLICHER GmbH
XTEK Limited (Sig Sauer)
Heckler & Kock GmbH
Lewis Machine & Tools Co Inc
F-Trooper05
07-16-16, 04:57
Bu-bu-but the MRP is too heavy bro!
After you add a light and PEQ-15 to the end of that handguard, it is pretty friggin heavy.
Personally, I would have looked at KAC, but that is another argument...
From a armorer/maintenance standpoint, the MRP is much simpler than KAC due to the easy barrel removal. And what does KAC give you that LMT does not?
I understand wanting the rifle to be as user-friendly as possible, but I wonder about all the ambi mods. It seems that makes for a lot of extra small parts to break or jam. I'm also curious how their spec-ops troops benefit from having a separate variant.
I do think that this is the best standard issue combat rifle in the world right now. But I would have liked to see a lightweight barrel.
Regardless, I'd like to clone one of these.
Spin Drift
07-16-16, 08:07
From a armorer/maintenance standpoint, the MRP is much simpler than KAC due to the easy barrel removal. And what does KAC give you that LMT does not?
An improved bolt design, for one.
The Mod 2 weighs almost a pound less.
The Mod 2 hand guard spins on, barrel has an index, straight gas tube that taps in and is locked with 2 set screws pretty simple, really.
As easy a barrel swap as the LMT, no.
LMT/KAC are a little like 1st cousins.
I swapped uppers more often than I swapped barrels when I ran LMT.
Good Luck.
KalashniKEV
07-16-16, 08:30
I do think that this is the best standard issue combat rifle in the world right now. But I would have liked to see a lightweight barrel.
The lightweight craze is completely driven by the American consumer, and completely misguided.
These rifles (or any rifle) might be called on to do some defend-COP-Keating shit on any given day.
Screw lightweight. Long live SOCOM profile!
Eurodriver
07-16-16, 08:38
The lightweight craze is completely driven by the American consumer, and completely misguided.
These rifles (or any rifle) might be called on to do some defend-COP-Keating shit on any given day.
Screw lightweight. Long live SOCOM profile!
Agreed
Outlander Systems
07-16-16, 09:08
****ing gospel.
LW profiles are for beer-can bicep'd manginas.
The lightweight craze is completely driven by the American consumer, and completely misguided.
These rifles (or any rifle) might be called on to do some defend-COP-Keating shit on any given day.
Screw lightweight. Long live SOCOM profile!
The lightweight craze is completely driven by the American consumer, and completely misguided.
These rifles (or any rifle) might be called on to do some defend-COP-Keating shit on any given day.
Screw lightweight. Long live SOCOM profile!
I completely agree.
MountainRaven
07-16-16, 12:10
The whole lightweight barrel thing was originally a military requirement. Heavy barrels a civilian thing. If all you're doing is taking your rifle from your car to the bench and all you care about is shooting small groups of holes in paper, heavy is what you want. If you're carrying ammo, armor, NODs, radio(s), and enough batteries to keep everything running, a lighter rifle is a benefit.
In fact, given that it's military guys who have been pushing guns like the lightweight BCM (and the original M16), that there are SOF guys arguing that maybe we shouldn't always be wearing armor everywhere, I'm surprised we haven't heard about anybody taking pointers from fastpackers, minimalist backpackers, and mountain goat hunters and guides and rocking lightweight guns with lightweight gear and moving across the mountains of AFG like some sort of human-goat cavalry.
Still, if you're not humping a 240B and two-thousand rounds of 7.62 NATO, you're a f___ing p___y.
:p
An improved bolt design, for one.
The Mod 2 weighs almost a pound less.
The Mod 2 hand guard spins on, barrel has an index, straight gas tube that taps in and is locked with 2 set screws pretty simple, really.
As easy a barrel swap as the LMT, no.
LMT/KAC are a little like 1st cousins.
I swapped uppers more often than I swapped barrels when I ran LMT.
Good Luck.
I'm familiar with the way the URX4 works/installs. The E3 bolt is an excellent design. I would love to see it offered on LMT MRPs. With that said, LMT standard bolts are actually slightly enhanced. There is an annular cut behind the locking lugs to lessen the stress riser that occurs with an abrupt near 90 degree transition from locking lug to bolt body. And there are two bearing surfaces where the body interfaces with the ID of bolt carrier.
Also, LMTs enhanced bolt is well designed. Is it comparable to the E3? I don't know. Would love to see a head to head high round count comparison of LMTs two NZ rifles and a KAC mod2. A true test, not an Internet "expert" YouTube test.
The first rifle I owned that I ran into the 5 digit round count was a LMT MRP 16" mid. It would be nice if they would make all their MRP/MWS barrels with the lightweight extension.
The first rifle I owned that I ran into the 5 digit round count was a LMT MRP 16" mid. It would be nice if they would make all their MRP/MWS barrels with the lightweight extension.
Yes, that would be great.
KalashniKEV
07-17-16, 13:42
The whole lightweight barrel thing was originally a military requirement. Heavy barrels a civilian thing.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
What weapon are you talking about???
If you're carrying ammo, armor, NODs, radio(s), and enough batteries to keep everything running, a lighter rifle is a benefit.
Thank you for sharing that knowledge.
In fact, given that it's military guys who have been pushing guns like the lightweight BCM (and the original M16), that there are SOF guys arguing that maybe we shouldn't always be wearing armor everywhere...
1) So far I've only seen the salesmen pushing the LW craze. In fact, I've never really met anyone in the military who was complaining about barrel weight. OT: Same with "lube wars" = 100% salesman driven.
2) Body armor can be a drag when you're not getting shot at. There are times when it quickly becomes a necessity- like when bullets are impacting your upper torso region. If you could plan it all out, you'd be golden.
Would love to see a head to head high round count comparison of LMTs two NZ rifles and a KAC mod2. A true test, not an Internet "expert" YouTube test.
Somebody send me a KAC mod2 and I'll put it up against the MRP + LMT enhanced bolt.
I've got my welding mask and my sand tornado standing by! ;)
MountainRaven
07-17-16, 14:41
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
What weapon are you talking about???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AKM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_HK33
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FNC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_SCAR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_AUG
I'm sure that I'm forgetting one or two.
Body armor can be a drag when you're not getting shot at. There are times when it quickly becomes a necessity- like when bullets are impacting your upper torso region. If you could plan it all out, you'd be golden.
Of course, you could also just take cover - that you can't take when you've got armor and mags pushing your body six inches off the ground - and not get shot in the first place.
Armor is also a total drag when you're 35 or 40 and your knees and back are totally shot because you've been hauling 90+ lbs. of crap up and down mountains for the last ten years. And then you get into a firefight with the human equivalent of mountain goats while totally exhausted from humping all that crap, on your totally shot knees and back, and not only get shot because you can't take cover but can't effectively return fire because of your exhaustion level.
The original video appears gone. Wonder why
ETA I don't think people want 'lighter' as much as 'balanced'.
If you're living in the boonies for a month with what you carry on your back a lighter weapon might be nice but then again...
Heat expands and a pencil barrel may not help in a long drawn out fight. Look at Vietnam, the A1 is a delightful weapon but constant auto fire isn't good for it. At some point accuracy or mechanics will suffer.
Gunnar da Wolf
07-17-16, 16:17
I looked thru this thread but may have missed it. Does anyone know what optic NZ will be running on their new rifles?
I looked thru this thread but may have missed it. Does anyone know what optic NZ will be running on their new rifles?
ACOG/RMR. Don't know which reticle.
Appears that bayonet lug is mounted on the side of the barrel, not the bottom. Is that intentional so that someone can also use it in a 'slashing' movement, where the blade of the bayonet is horizontal?
The side bayonet mount was specially designed to specifications by Birdman Weapon Systems.
wildcard600
07-17-16, 23:23
The side bayonet mount was specially designed to specifications by Birdman Weapon Systems.
I have their homeboy night sights and one of their .50 rifles. Trick kit made by true professionals. They make KAC look like bubba garage builds.
ACOG/RMR. Don't know which reticle.
I saw one of the earlier models, it was a NZDF unique reticle. Incredibly busy looking like an inverted christmas tree with windage markings that make it seem more like a DM optic. I heard a rumour they'd simplified it. It is one of the problems when the NZDF wants to maintain its "corporate identity" by having unique equipment (*sigh* look at the new cammies) and a project leaders who miss the mark. If you do a search for TA31NZ COSR you might find something.
tacticaldesire
07-18-16, 10:34
Instead of an expensive 5 years study/procurement program, the Kiwi's grabbed a known product (they also are pretty happy the MWS) from LMT, added a couple of fine tune tweaks, and are rocking a new rifle, without a bunch of fiddle-f$%^&*#$ around.
They probably don't have the; I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine, bureaucratic bullshit like what goes on here.
I knew I couldn't be the only one that thinks the lightweight trend has gone too far. From the time I saw the gimmicky OIP AR in 2013 with lots of lightening cuts, very little in the way of customizing to fit the user, all in the name of lightweight (under 4Lbs), I knew I had seen the epitome of an end justifying the means. It's an engineering exercise and experiment to see how far you can go to lighten an AR that I would have accepted as innovative, except it didn't stop at being an exercise and experiment, it was a commercial venture with the goal to sell it.
The same can be said of many lightweight ARs and components. What has been given up to achieve light weight? If it's durability and reliability, then this is a poor trade I will not make.
Firefly had put it succinctly, a balanced approach is the way to go. Placing the entire emphasis on one attribute while ignoring all else can work for a niche market item, gets you bragging rights and sales I guess, but ultimately is a failed concept that I believe is a disservice to the advancement of the system.
I've been running my LMT MRP since 2004, it's ever been the AR I shoot, never mind I had built many before and since. It's heavy, I run it with PEQ15 (PEQ-2A before that), and only recently put a smaller, single battery flashlight to replace the Surefire M900. All attempt at significant weight reduction had failed, short of either fluting or dimpling the barrel, I did what I could, remove all the spare batteries from storage compartments, use a lighter muzzle device and lighter flashlight.
The original video link was removed. Did anyone by chance save a copy of it or have another link? Would love to check it out.
sundance435
07-19-16, 10:12
I knew I couldn't be the only one that thinks the lightweight trend has gone too far. From the time I saw the gimmicky OIP AR in 2013 with lots of lightening cuts, very little in the way of customizing to fit the user, all in the name of lightweight (under 4Lbs), I knew I had seen the epitome of an end justifying the means. It's an engineering exercise and experiment to see how far you can go to lighten an AR that I would have accepted as innovative, except it didn't stop at being an exercise and experiment, it was a commercial venture with the goal to sell it.
The same can be said of many lightweight ARs and components. What has been given up to achieve light weight? If it's durability and reliability, then this is a poor trade I will not make.
Caveat: I will never put more than 2500 rounds through an individual AR in a year, so I don't think of myself as using them "hard". However, I like some of the lightweight options out there, like what Battle Arms Development has done with their lightweight uppers and lowers. There are easy weight savings to be made to those two parts in areas that are not "high stress". That's also true of barrels, just by changing the profile in a way that makes sense. Even if those weight-savings cost a premium, if people buy them, then who cares? It's usually good to have options. With all of the options out there, it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to build a 6lb. (or even sub-6lb) AR without sacrificing much, if anything, in terms of reliability and durability. If you don't want to pay a premium for that, then don't.
turnburglar
07-19-16, 13:36
Sorry, but "Light weight" isn't a trend, craze, fad, or whatever you want to call it. It's whats WANTED by the men USING this shit, and has been before any of us where ever born.
When you start walking 6-12 miles A DAY, at elevations above 8000 feet you will start leaving gear behind really fast. I did this myself swell as saw it done rampantly at the operational level (much to leaderships despise): dudes pulling the stupid neck, groin, shoulder pads, soft armor and side plates. We had these stupid floppy IOTV's with nothing but front and back plates in them. I even debriefed a col (as an e4) about why soft armor was getting left behind.
Nothing trumps mobility and capability in a fight. NVG's? all day long. Frags, belt fed, lasers, optics? **** yea!!
Armor that doesn't even protect you from what your actually scared of? (vbied/s-vest/ied). No thanks.
Sorry, but "Light weight" isn't a trend, craze, fad, or whatever you want to call it. It's whats WANTED by the men USING this shit, and has been before any of us where ever born.
When you start walking 6-12 miles A DAY, at elevations above 8000 feet you will start leaving gear behind really fast. I did this myself swell as saw it done rampantly at the operational level (much to leaderships despise): dudes pulling the stupid neck, groin, shoulder pads, soft armor and side plates. We had these stupid floppy IOTV's with nothing but front and back plates in them. I even debriefed a col (as an e4) about why soft armor was getting left behind.
Nothing trumps mobility and capability in a fight. NVG's? all day long. Frags, belt fed, lasers, optics? **** yea!!
Armor that doesn't even protect you from what your actually scared of? (vbied/s-vest/ied). No thanks.
Just in case no one has said it lately - thanks - you guys make this old fart proud.
The lightening cuts made by Battle Arms' own LW AR didn't go overboard, and it still has enough customizing options for optics, sights, sling mounts, so I have no problem with it, or other sensible approach to light weight.
KalashniKEV
07-19-16, 16:46
Sorry, but "Light weight" isn't a trend, craze, fad, or whatever you want to call it. It's whats WANTED by the men USING this shit, and has been before any of us where ever born.
Light weight is.
Light tripod? HELL YES.
Titanium 240 receiver? OK. Plastic trigger housing. errr... okayyy...
Less ammo? NOPE.
Light barrel? NOPE.
No Optics, NODs, BUIS, or aiming lasers? NOPE.
Stripping capability off your weapon system is the absolute last place you want to look to save a few oz's.
Losing protection is the second to last place.
I've dealt with the exact-same-thing, and despite joe's bitching, it's not so much about a stealthy/ sneaky infil to the OP, or being able to run all over the place when the bullets start to fly, or handicapped folks on the battlefield or whatever that other guy was talking about- It's about "this stuff is heavy and I don't want to carry it. It's not comfy, and I like to be comfy."
Proof is that they always seem to welcome those oz's back when it comes to something fun like dip or an iPod.
Armor that doesn't even protect you from what your actually scared of? (vbied/s-vest/ied). No thanks.
Actually, the soft armor inserts you're talking about won't stop a round from an AK, but are effective in stopping light frag in an IED event, and increasing survivability at closer ranges.
You have it completely backwards.
They do trap a lot of heat though. Definitely not comfy.
And screw those nape pads, groin pads, accessory stuff.
Yeah man, guys in Nam carried heavy M60s that spanged frequently while wearing flak jackets in really humid weather. Plus dudes with huge PRCs. Once he got beer and a little sideways comfort he was g2g.
If I were King of New Zealand, I'd get the CQB with short barrel and a suppressor for my secret squirels and give my regular guys rifle length MRPs with 16" barrels. If you really, really need to bayonet someone, something went wrong somewhere....in which case you whip out some 100mph tape and improvise.
In any case, New Zealand is pretty squared away....LMT rifles in 5.56 and 7.62, Glock 17 pistols...
Actually pretty sensible. Nothing crazy or bizarre.
ETA. I furthermore would want Kev to save me should I ever end up in some heavy shit. He knows his business.
Could not help but think of this guy:
https://carryingthegun.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/iraq-loading-1006.jpg
And he'd be heavier now, though his nvg'd be lighter.
My son is 170-175. Routinely rucked in RS with 110-120lb loadout, and has done FRIES/SPIES insert/extractions with 100+ lb rucks plus his other gear.
No one wants extra weight if it can be avoided.
More robust barrel that weighs a few oz more might be worth it for the M4 carbines.
As much as I like the LMT platforms picked by the kiwis, I'm not sure I see the value add worth the weight increase for light IN types.
MRPs aren't that heavy. For what the system offers, it isn't a bad tradeoff. Pic rails are never going away and at the armorer level, replacing a worn barrel is easier, plus the barrel is free float. So it's not stupid weight.
A URX rail would be better for a sneaky pete gun, but for a general purpose rifle; the MRP has a lot going for it.
Plus with the stuff the guy in the picture has, his gun is already kinda weighty. It would be sorta negligible.
I would love to know the context of that picture. I've seen it used on religious posters and oohrah posters. Like he's praying or showing the indominatible spirit of the American fighting man.
But all I see is a guy thinking "My knees....my back...."
I would love to know the context of that picture. I've seen it used on religious posters and oohrah posters. Like he's praying or showing the indominatible spirit of the American fighting man.
But all I see is a guy thinking "My knees....my back...."
Well, he's with the 173rd, probably just tired of being deployed all the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/173rd_Airborne_Brigade_Combat_Team
MountainRaven
07-19-16, 20:52
They probably don't have the; I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine, bureaucratic bullshit like what goes on here.
A small military (not much money to spend) and virtually non-existant defense industry (not much money to be made) likely helps.
I would love to know the context of that picture. I've seen it used on religious posters and oohrah posters. Like he's praying or showing the indominatible spirit of the American fighting man.
But all I see is a guy thinking "My knees....my back...."
2003 combat jump into Iraq.
https://carryingthegun.com/2013/03/26/to-the-chagrin-of-the-82nd-the-173rd-jumps-into-iraq-mar-26-2003/
So I guess I wasn't too far off "My knees
...my back...."
My heart goes out to airborne troops. What other job lets you start at 6'2" and retire at 5'8"?
All attempt at significant weight reduction had failed, short of either fluting or dimpling the barrel, I did what I could, remove all the spare batteries from storage compartments, use a lighter muzzle device and lighter flashlight.
That's no lie. I haven't weighed mine, but my MRP is a pig and very front heavy, especially with the M600 at the very end. That barrel really is something.
Do I sometimes wish I had a lighter-weight rifle? Sure. Many times extended firing sessions do get fatiguing on the arm and shoulders (yes, I work out). I'm sure thumb-over-bore contributes towards fatigue, as your arm is super extended.
Towards the middle of a training session, I could no longer hold the MRP with my right hand while doing mag changes with the left.
It has everything I want in an AR, though its weight is a compromise. In a balanced approach, I'd flute or dimple the barrel and retain all the good the MRP has to offer :D
jerrysimons
07-20-16, 15:20
Love LMTs new lowers.
I wonder if LMT liscensed LWRCI's IC lower design as the MARS lower definitely takes after it. I like the control placement of the IC lower but the way the right and left side bolt catch/release interface together (pics In new thread to come) increases the resistance on the left side bolt catch enough that I can't release it with my (short) trigger finger when shooting lefty without breaking grip or using my support hand like with a standard configuration. The lower design, even as it is completely ambi, still favors righty use in that the right side bolt catch/release is placed further back, closer to the grip, which allows more leverage to depress for release, functioning much like the right side bolt release of a KAC or MEGA lower. Also when shooting right handed with the LWRC IC design the placement of the right side bolt catch/release allows you to extend your trigger finger out and press both the mag release button with your trigger finger pad and the "catch side" of the right side ping-pong paddle with the middle of the trigger finger for malfunction clearing requiring dropping the mag and locking the BCG back in one motion with out breaking grip, like the AXTS designed ADAC pin and liscensed Boonie Packer readi catch allow. You can't do this lefty with the lower design but it is still probably the most ambi AR lower design out there. The only reliability concern I have is the increased mass and resistance the mag spring has to take on to push the bolt catches up for lock back on empty.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/CCA2F97C-52F8-4D2E-923D-169D73E50846_zpsrdtc2sw5.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/CCA2F97C-52F8-4D2E-923D-169D73E50846_zpsrdtc2sw5.jpg.html)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/5A3F823A-0AD3-467E-9A3C-BFD5A2F79E75_zpszh1esopd.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/5A3F823A-0AD3-467E-9A3C-BFD5A2F79E75_zpszh1esopd.jpg.html)
As to lightweight, I have three builds (all with optics, BUIS, and carried attachments!): a sub 6lb non-NFA defensive carbine, a sub 5lb/sub 6lb suppressed defensive SBR, and a sub 4lb/sub 5lb suppressed range toy SBR. I would not hesitate to take either defensive lightweight builds on a patrol in a CONUS LEO capacity (the range toy is just that). But in combat deployment? No. All my go-to rifles have Noveske medcon tapered CHF barrels. Light weight in a combat capacity is great but the barrel I will keep heavier. With today's design and bursting market you can find robust ways to reduce ounces elsewhere and keep a healthy barrel profile. Potential sustained fire of war does not lend and edge to the pencil profiles of my defensive builds.
Love the MRP too, thing is machined from a single block of forged 7075 aluminum! And has a rugged quick barrel change design. I would be all over one if LMT would get around to doing them in MLOK.
jerrysimons
07-20-16, 16:03
Back to what I said about being able to drop the mag and press the bolt catch up in one motion. With the LWRCI IC design and the LMT MARS lower you can do it on the right side shooting righty like I described but not the left. The LWRCI IC lower with the placement of the proprietary left side mag release button and standard bolt catch don't allow it for obvious reasons. You can't get your finger to press both at the same time:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/83B60AD2-8572-4B67-B94A-64A39EC6B42C_zpsdbnmkfjm.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/83B60AD2-8572-4B67-B94A-64A39EC6B42C_zpsdbnmkfjm.jpg.html)
BUT
The LMT MARS lower uses KACs left side mag release design which uses a standard mag catch bar and looks like it would allow for swapping in a Boonie Packer Redi-catch.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/90DB278E-1A78-48B9-BCC9-5C1C7A592C94_zpssvem6fcm.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/90DB278E-1A78-48B9-BCC9-5C1C7A592C94_zpssvem6fcm.jpg.html)
http://forwardcontrolsdesign.com/assets/images/redicatchabcrfwithtext.JPG
http://forwardcontrolsdesign.com/Boonie-Packer-Redi-Catch_p_37.html
This combo would be the most ambidextrous and functionally enhanced AR lower I know of.
Off topic alert...
I wanted to incorporate Redi-Catch into our EMR-A (ambidextrous mag release) but AXTS declined to license it to us. It would have been a great combination: mag button actuated bolt lock and ambidextrous mag release, all in one. Redi-Catch doesn't work with 3rd party ambi mag catches such as Norgon's, Troy's, and our ambi mag catches :(
jerrysimons
07-20-16, 20:47
Off topic alert...
I wanted to incorporate Redi-Catch into our EMR-A (ambidextrous mag release) but AXTS declined to license it to us. It would have been a great combination: mag button actuated bolt lock and ambidextrous mag release, all in one. Redi-Catch doesn't work with 3rd party ambi mag catches such as Norgon's, Troy's, and our ambi mag catches :(
Duffy, Your stuff is golden man!
I have been pondering that exact question for a while. Bummer. That would have been sweet. Doesn't surprise me though. AXTS keeping that goodness for themselves. Now they won't even sell their lowers separately. Not a fan.
I have a Rainier Arms ADAC forged lower with a Troy ambi mag catch (works better with the mil-spec bolt catch nub but Norgan has better design) that is sweet and functions similarly to what you envision BUT I can't use your awesome ABC-R because the ADAC pin has a notch it interfaces with on the bottom of the modified mil-spec style bolt catch. :( Do you suppose you could add, you know, a similar "lightening cut" to your ABC-R? For the sake of lightweight and all ;)
Thank you! :D
Actually, Josh Underwood said he was going to send me the specs for the notch to make it compatible with A-DAC, I'll email him to remind him to send it to me :)
jerrysimons
07-20-16, 21:36
Thank you! :D
Actually, Josh Underwood said he was going to send me the specs for the notch to make it compatible with A-DAC, I'll email him to remind him to send it to me :)
That is excellent news! But why decline the liscense for the ambi mag release? It is just more money for them and leveraging others marketing and sales capacity. Has any one ever even seen a complete AXTS rifle for sale? What are they protecting. They don't even sell lowers now. Why not allow someone to make a better lower product bearing the marks of their innovation. I realize some of these might be unanswerable.
On topic (not my pics) it looks like LMT has a slightly different linkage assembly on the right side bolt catch/release from LWRCI
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/DBF2C83C-CA12-4BE2-86AF-784202CB7980_zpssydulv7z.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/DBF2C83C-CA12-4BE2-86AF-784202CB7980_zpssydulv7z.jpg.html)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/A65FBE99-2BC3-455D-BAA6-9C9BBF514AFC_zps6mjjpqkg.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/A65FBE99-2BC3-455D-BAA6-9C9BBF514AFC_zps6mjjpqkg.jpg.html)
The EMR-A (patent pending, and my design) doesn't require a license from AXTS, it's my request to add the Redi-Catch feature option, as a modular, cost based option, on the EMR-A. Boonie Packer pays royalties to AXTS for the mag actuated bolt stop patent, so while Boonie Packer is willing to work with me, it wasn't up to them to allow or disallow me to incorporate the functionality.
Josh Underwood and I go way back, I just have to respect his decision, I don't need to start a patent dispute with him, then both parties lose.
jerrysimons
07-20-16, 22:52
The EMR-A (patent pending, and my design) doesn't require a license from AXTS, it's my request to add the Redi-Catch feature option, as a modular, cost based option, on the EMR-A. Boonie Packer pays royalties to AXTS for the mag actuated bolt stop patent, so while Boonie Packer is willing to work with me, it wasn't up to them to allow or disallow me to incorporate the functionality.
Josh Underwood and I go way back, I just have to respect his decision, I don't need to start a patent dispute with him, then both parties lose.
I understand. I have been looking forward to seeing your EMR-A and hoping it incorporated AXTS patent once I saw you pick up the redi-catch on your site. His decsion is unfortunate, following too a couple other disappointing moves by AXTS.
Keep up the good work Duffy! I am down for 2 ADAC compatible ABC-R when available :)
The LMT lower doesn't look quite as slick as KAC but it does look functional.
I like LMT's right side bolt catch/release better. Had I designed the right bolt catch/release, it would have been similar to what LMT has done, except I would give the upper paddle a rectangular shape and shorten it a bit, and give the lower paddle more serrations. I'd change the curved section between the upper and lower paddle to a simple but distinctive notch, so the finger can more easily tell which part of the bolt catch it's touching, without the user looking at or for it.
LWRC's right side paddle is nearly identical to the one on the left, with all of its shortcomings.
jerrysimons
07-21-16, 11:52
I like LMT's right side bolt catch/release better. Had I designed the right bolt catch/release, it would have been similar to what LMT has done, except I would give the upper paddle a rectangular shape and shorten it a bit, and give the lower paddle more serrations. I'd change the curved section between the upper and lower paddle to a simple but distinctive notch, so the finger can more easily tell which part of the bolt catch it's touching, without the user looking at or for it.
LWRC's right side paddle is nearly identical to the one on the left, with all of its shortcomings.
That sounds really good. I agree the LMT MARS controls looks better designed than the LWRCI IC. The increased surface area of the bottom and the slight radius (similar to your ABC-R) would certainly help with pressing both the bolt catch up and the mag catch button at the same time with you trigger finger while pulling the charging handle back with the support hand. While possible with the small nib on the LWRCI IC lower it is not comfy. Also their is more resistance the way the two interface and pivot together so pressing must be firm. Maybe the LMT does not have as much resistance but in either case the right side bolt catch/release pivots much further away from the receiver when the bolt is locked back. So shortening it would be fine and there is still a lot of leverage on the right side when pressing to release the bolt.
One issue I ran into with the LWRCI IC lower is the right side bolt catch/release interferes with the the revised placement of the shell deflector/forward assist location of some non mil-spec profile upper receivers. Specifically the VLTOR MUR is not compatible, even the one with a shell deflector only.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/B8459396-F7C4-4862-920F-7AB8F831FA8F_zpswlnvseg3.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/B8459396-F7C4-4862-920F-7AB8F831FA8F_zpswlnvseg3.jpg.html)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/5615B9F3-75F5-44FF-B4CE-3665434DBE63_zpsngxedep7.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/5615B9F3-75F5-44FF-B4CE-3665434DBE63_zpsngxedep7.jpg.html)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/4A9B354D-96E8-4BD3-98FA-9F5E1228B91B_zpsckfjzqxv.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/4A9B354D-96E8-4BD3-98FA-9F5E1228B91B_zpsckfjzqxv.jpg.html)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/66585E89-E840-406B-A927-81EA14E660BD_zpsslgwwmza.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/66585E89-E840-406B-A927-81EA14E660BD_zpsslgwwmza.jpg.html)
Now the LMT MRP upper also has a bigger than mil-spec bulg where the port-door rod is held into the upper by a roll pin. From photos I am not sure if the LWRC IC right side bolt catch/release would clear this part of the MRP upper. I have not gotten ahold of one to test but obviously the LMT lower works witht he MRP UPPER. I wonder if the right side bolt catch/release was moved slightly aft on their lower compared to the LWRCI IC?
Righto, more rolling resistance and pressure applied to a smaller surface area can't be comfortable to use. The boot heel shaped lower paddle that almost qualifies as an afterthought has ever been my gripe about a factory bolt catch.
Article from the now-pulled video here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aREsZs-__FIJ:www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm%3Fidarticles%3D3369+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
jerrysimons
07-23-16, 13:19
Article from the now-pulled video here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aREsZs-__FIJ:www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm%3Fidarticles%3D3369+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
What a fine rifle.
The Enhanced carrier receives a lot of love here but not the bolt. I wonder why?
Smart that LMT made the ambi bolt catch servicable. I haven't taken apart the roll pins on my LWRC IC lower because it is not readily apparent how to do it, the parts are proprietary, and it is a factory SBR lower so it is not worth the risk. It does not look to be as easily disassembled as the LMT lower appears.
What a fine rifle.
The Enhanced carrier receives a lot of love here but not the bolt. I wonder why?
Smart that LMT made the ambi bolt catch servicable. I haven't taken apart the roll pins on my LWRC IC lower because it is not readily apparent how to do it, the parts are proprietary, and it is a factory SBR lower so it is not worth the risk. It does not look to be as easily disassembled as the LMT lower appears.
I think that has changed with the most recent iteration.
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