View Full Version : Turkey soldiers launch 'illegal action' - PM Yildirim
Whiskey_Bravo
07-15-16, 15:30
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36809083
Are things about to get interesting in Turkey?
Turkey's PM has denounced an "illegal action" by a military "group", with bridges closed in Istanbul and aircraft flying low over the capital, Ankara.
Binali Yildirim said the military action was not authorised but it was not a coup. He said that the government remained in charge.
Traffic has been stopped from crossing both the Bosphorus and Fatih Sultan Mehmet bridges in Istanbul.
There are also reports of gunshots in the capital Ankara.
I'm sitting in the airport and just saw a scing news burb about military actions on the streets of Anakara, the capitol of Turkey. A quick google search yields breaking news stories with little real information. I'm interested to see what happens- Erdogan has been very unpopular in Turkey, and I wonder if his time has come. Boarding the flight soon so I'm afraid I have no other info/knowledge to post. Please keep this thread updated if news breaks- I'd like to see how the story unfolds, and compare it with official reports once things settle.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/15/gunfire-heard-jets-seen-flying-in-turkish-capital-of-ankara.html/
https://mobile.twitter.com/mikethecraigy/status/754044745173827588?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Digital_Damage
07-15-16, 15:41
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36809083
Are things about to get interesting in Turkey?
It is a coup, he is calling other forces to confront the units.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/turkish-prime-minister-says-attempted-coup-underway-calls-for-calm/ar-BBunKFQ?li=AA4Zpp&ocid=spartanntp
So more Arab Spring or something different? Things might get interesting if the new guys are more Arab Spring than anything else.
Few details, all a buzz on national TV media.
Yeah just reading it
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The_War_Wagon
07-15-16, 16:04
CRAZY mohammedans?! Say it ain't... ahhh... you know the drill... :rolleyes:
MountainRaven
07-15-16, 16:07
CRAZY mohammedans?! Say it ain't... ahhh... you know the drill... :rolleyes:
Considering the place where it's happening, the coup might be the product of the not-crazy ones.
CNN is reporting that is a military takeover, or perhaps an attempted military takeover. Success is unclear.
Added: http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/15/gunfire-heard-jets-seen-flying-in-turkish-capital-of-ankara.html
Considering the place where it's happening, the coup might be the product of the not-crazy ones.
I think you are right
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"Turkish Armed Forces have completely taken over the administration of the country to reinstate constitutional order, human rights and freedoms, the rule of law and general security that was damaged.
All international agreements are still valid. We hope that all of our good relationships with all countries will continue."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-military-gunfire-ankara
What does this mean for the US and NATO?
Interesting to say the least
Doc Safari
07-15-16, 16:46
Something tells me the ultimate result of this will be Turkey withdrawing from NATO and becoming part of the Islamic jihad problem, even though the people conducting the coup are "apparently" doing it to restore Turkey's secular constitutional government. I say the revolution will be stolen by the jihadists.
Well they said that they want to maintain international relationships.
Not much to go on besides what they say.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-16, 16:49
Just trying to +/- this quick:
Positive:
Israel
Syria- less Sunni and more realpolitik position?
New business card and stationery suppliers
Negative for:
ISIS- less support
Kurds- more operations against them?
More ISIS attacks in Turkey if they are being less supported/tolerated
Russia help out in any way to make it happen?
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-16, 16:52
"Turkish Armed Forces have completely taken over the administration of the country to reinstate constitutional order, human rights and freedoms, the rule of law and general security that was damaged.
All international agreements are still valid. We hope that all of our good relationships with all countries will continue."
Thank you for calling. For more information follow our Twitter feed at #NewYoungTurks and #TurkeyUnderOldManagement.
I plead ignorance about Turkey. Are the military the good guys (anti-ISIS) or the bad guys. My pea brain needs simple choices.
A buddy of mine in Germany has posted the Turkish President had requested asylum in Germany. I'm looking for confirmation.
A buddy of mine in Germany has posted the Turkish President had requested asylum in Germany. I'm looking for confirmation.
I am hearing that on CNN also.
BoringGuy45
07-15-16, 16:57
A buddy of mine in Germany has posted the Turkish President had requested asylum in Germany. I'm looking for confirmation.
If Germany turns him down, he can just claim to be a member of ISIS and he'll immediately get asylum in France or here in the U.S.
Voodoochild
07-15-16, 16:59
Just trying to +/- this quick:
Positive:
Israel
Syria- less Sunni and more realpolitik position?
New business card and stationery suppliers
Negative for:
ISIS- less support
Kurds- more operations against them?
More ISIS attacks in Turkey if they are being less supported/tolerated
Russia help out in any way to make it happen?
I suspect they will be more focused on ISIS and other related groups. Will probably try and make peace with the Kurds. There was a standing peace agreement until Edrogen broke it.
The Turkish military sees itself as the guardians of the secular Turkish state. That role used to be assigned to them in the constitution (back in the 80's and 90s). The Turkish military is large, well equipped and reasonably well trained. Doctrinal concerns about democracy and military coups notwithstanding, this coup is likely to end up in a more secular, pro nato, pro west Turkey than the one that has become increasingly Islamic and undemocratic over the years. If I have to choose between an undemocratic pro western, pro nato government and an un democratic anti western, pro islamist party, than the choice is pretty clear.
Favorite Turkish story: I was there as a boy in the 80's. THe Turkish military were still patrolling the streets. The troops were carrying Thompson smg's. My old man, who was a nato staffer and I were getting a tour by his Turkish colleague. A young corporal runs up, salutes, shouts something in Turkish and runs off. He was carrying a wheel gun in a holster with the lanyard going right around his neck (not around the neck and shoulder). My old man turns to the Turkish colonel and says "man, isn't that a safety hazard. Someone could strangle him". The Turk said "well true, but we have more corporals than we have revolvers, and we don't lose revolvers...".
Mess with the Turks at your peril...
The Turkish military sees itself as the guardians of the secular Turkish state. That role used to be assigned to them in the constitution (back in the 80's and 90s). The Turkish military is large, well equipped and reasonably well trained. Doctrinal concerns about democracy and military coups notwithstanding, this coup is likely to end up in a more secular, pro nato, pro west Turkey than the one that has become increasingly Islamic and undemocratic over the years. If I have to choose between an undemocratic pro western, pro nato government and an un democratic anti western, pro islamist party, than the choice is pretty clear.
Thank you. Great story, BTW.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-16, 17:09
I see Russia taking notes about how to run coups in NATO countries, especially the Baltic. Run a pro-Russian Coup, run in troops to support it (or have them don their patches) and viola.
Business_Casual
07-15-16, 17:13
Obama will find a way to screw it up, if it is pro-Order.
I'm not really up to speed on Turkey and it's politics, current events, etc.
Anyone have a good synopsis?
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-16, 17:22
KEV I think just had his head explode over the 28 pages otherwise he'd be here. I'd like to see his +/- on this.
What does this mean for the US and NATO?
It means that prices on MKE's are going up. In fact, I bet that Germany is behind this to eliminate competition ahead of their US MP5 release.
17 Turkish officers reportedly killed in helicopter attack on police special forces headquarters on outskirts of Ankara.
Lots of reports that two F-16s shot down a helo carrying coup forces.
Erdogan was denied asylum in Germany. He's seeking asylum in the UK but it seems unlikely.
Obama and Sec of State Kerry are siding with democratically elected officials.
I'm not really up to speed on Turkey and it's politics, current events, etc.
Anyone have a good synopsis?
Cliff's Notes:
It's a NATO ally with an elected government. However, the elected PM has Islamist sympathies. It appears that secular elements in the military are trying to bring the country away from fundamentalism.
Cliff's Notes:
It's a NATO ally with an elected government. However, the elected PM has Islamist sympathies. It appears that secular elements in the military are trying to bring the country away from fundamentalism.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CncSZd8XEAEKs28.jpg
Eurodriver
07-15-16, 18:23
Cliff's Notes:
It's a NATO ally with an elected government. However, the elected PM has Islamist sympathies. It appears that secular elements in the military are trying to bring the country away from fundamentalism.
He asked about Turkey not the USA.
Outlander Systems
07-15-16, 18:27
You won the internet today!
****ing classic!!!!!! :jester:
He asked about Turkey not the USA.
He asked about Turkey not the USA.
:lol:
Cliff's Notes:
It's a NATO ally with an elected government. However, the elected PM has Islamist sympathies. It appears that secular elements in the military are trying to bring the country away from fundamentalism.
I got that much. I figured there was more to know. Thanks.
According to FOX: as a NATO ally, we have an obligation to support the elected officials...
Yeah, which is why Germany said "We support the democratically elected government of Turkey" ... and then turned away Erdogan.
"Turkey's military does not answer to its president like many other countries. They serve to maintain the vision of the country's founder. The current president of Turkey has been pushing more and more islamist-focused laws (control of the media, things like that). This goes against the secular-focus of the country's founding. The military has decided the president needs to be removed, and have staged a coup to accomplish this. This is not unique in Turkey's history, their military has done this a few times in the past for the same reasons. Presumably, the military's goal is to put someone more secular in power of the government. The police in Turkey work for the government. So they are fighting against the military currently."
Cliff's Notes:
It's a NATO ally with an elected government. However, the elected PM has Islamist sympathies. It appears that secular elements in the military are trying to bring the country away from fundamentalism.
not mentioned: he has increasingly been doing things the secular crowd believes are unconstitutional
This has been building for a while... 12-18 mths?
Turkish national intelligence spokesman says coup attempt has been "repelled."
Could be propaganda. Also reports that the attack helo was downed.
Are we talking about USA or Turkey? I am getting confused now.
So far, 3 bombs have hit the Turkish Parliament building.
He asked about Turkey not the USA.
😂 Most excellent!
17 Turkish officers reportedly killed in helicopter attack on police special forces headquarters on outskirts of Ankara.
Lots of reports that two F-16s shot down a helo carrying coup forces.
Erdogan was denied asylum in Germany. He's seeking asylum in the UK but it seems unlikely.
Obama and Sec of State Kerry are siding with democratically elected officials.
So...in Syria Obama backs the illegal coup (Extremists), and in Turkey, he backs the elected officials (extremist sympathizers). This is par for the course, I guess.
What little I know of modern Turkey is from friends and acquaintances from there. These are bright young grad students or soft ware engineers that very much love their country and have been saying for quite some time they fear for their future as Turks. Erdogan is not loved, to say the least. as mentioned above, he has been taking Turkey further and further from the path established by Pesha Kemal(Ataturk, 'Father of Turks'). The Ottoman Empire held Turkey back, Kemal said, and the key to Turkey's future was becoming secular and democratic; Erdogan has been trashing this ever since he took office, and it looks like he's finally crossed the line. I hope he is deposed without further blood shed; I'm afraid, however, this is going to lead to a nasty civil war. We're looking at two ideologies clashing here: the modern secular vision of Kemal and the roots of Islam resisting change any further change. I pray the true Turks can get rid of this despot and keep the radical Islamists away from government once and for all.
MountainRaven
07-15-16, 19:36
I see Russia taking notes about how to run coups in NATO countries, especially the Baltic. Run a pro-Russian Coup, run in troops to support it (or have them don their patches) and viola.
In Turkey, military coups are quasi-normal: This isn't the first military coup in Turkey while Turkey has been in NATO. This is not the case with any other country in NATO.
Favorite Turkish story: I was there as a boy in the 80's. THe Turkish military were still patrolling the streets. The troops were carrying Thompson smg's. My old man, who was a nato staffer and I were getting a tour by his Turkish colleague. A young corporal runs up, salutes, shouts something in Turkish and runs off. He was carrying a wheel gun in a holster with the lanyard going right around his neck (not around the neck and shoulder). My old man turns to the Turkish colonel and says "man, isn't that a safety hazard. Someone could strangle him". The Turk said "well true, but we have more corporals than we have revolvers, and we don't lose revolvers...".
Mess with the Turks at your peril...
Along those lines, I had a coworker who was AF stationed in Turkey circa 1966-67. He told me that one day a Turkish F4 pilot had to eject and they brought the planes crew chief onto the flight line whereupon the pilot, I believe my coworker said he was a major, shot the unlucky crew chief. Coworker was a loadmaster on a C141 and was securing things when this transpired, so he said.
As a lover of Western civilization and individual liberty, and a fervent hater of Islam, the Ottoman Empire and Turkey (in general), I reluctantly support this coup.
Hussein and his entourage of white dhimmi useful idiots and traitors are obviously coming down on the side of Islam, like always.
Democracy barely works (and not for much longer) in the non-Muslim world. In the Muslim world, it is just useless. The only (barely) "acceptable"/tolerable Muslim majority is one that is ruled brutally by secular dictators.
The only problem is that this requires constant and expensive effort to maintain control, given the prevalence of Islam and how fast it breed. It's like trying to keep a lid on a full boiling pot. Eventually it'll give. There needs to be a way to remove the water from the pot.
BoringGuy45
07-15-16, 21:57
The anti-leftist sentiment in the American military and law enforcement is well known. A very large segment of both communities take their oath to defend the Constitution very seriously. The Turkish military is the same way, and now we see how they react when someone tries to trash their constitution. I hope that the liberals take notice of this, and think twice about their foregone conclusion that the police and military would be simple yes men when they try and turn them loose on the American public...
ColtSeavers
07-15-16, 22:08
Good Effing Gawd... You take a week of leave to go camping for three days, come home and France gets Death Race 2000'd...
Turn around and go back out to the lake the next day, and Turkey has a coup...
Screw it, we're leaving the house again tomorrow...
One can only wonder if what is going on in turkey might happen here in the US. Just wondering.
So to recap:
In Syria we are fighting to help "rebels" opposed to the Assad regime, which basically puts us in the same camp as ISIS.
In Turkey, we are fighting against rebels who are opposed to the current leadership which had been funneling fighters to ISIS and carrying out attacks against the Kurds who are fighting ISIS which basically puts us in the same camp as ISIS.
On August 25, 2015 Turkish newspaper Bugün ran a front-page story showing alleged transfer of weapon and explosives from Turkey to ISIL through Akcakale border post. A couple of days later offices of Koza İpek Media Group, the owner of the newspaper, were raided by Turkish police.
BoringGuy45
07-15-16, 22:18
As a lover of Western civilization and individual liberty, and a fervent hater of Islam, the Ottoman Empire and Turkey (in general), I reluctantly support this coup.
As do I. If it does succeed, I'm not yet going to declare that good days are ahead for Turkey. When the military begins to be the main player in power games, nations become to be perpetually unstable. It's exactly what led to the destabilizing and downfall of the Roman Empire. However, there are exceptions and hopefully this is one of them. I pray that these rebels truly do wish to restore what they believe in, and don't get a whiff of what power feels like when they're in charge, and then change their minds as often happens.
So to recap:
In Syria we are fighting to help "rebels" opposed to the Assad regime, which basically puts us in the same camp as ISIS.
In Turkey, we are fighting against rebels who are opposed to the current leadership which had been funneling fighters to ISIS and carrying out attacks against the Kurds who are fighting ISIS which basically puts us in the same camp as ISIS.
To add to that, we have two attacks on American soil by parties either affiliated with, or at least inspired by, ISIS. Our government responds by condemning anti-Islamic sentiment in the U.S. and threatening to disarm the American population under current threat from ISIS...also putting us in the same camp as ISIS. We're pretty much on frenemy status with ISIS right now.
News is reporting that soldiers involved in the coup are trying to surrender.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-16, 23:08
That Turkey lasted less time than my thanksgivings left overs.
Jeez... What a total flame out.
It went from the president of turkey in hiding to military coup to the president asking for asylum in Germany to now soldiers surrendering in day light??? WTF??? More distraction for something else more serious???
Meanwhile.......hundreds of Isis fighters are crossing into turkey, heavily armed.
BoringGuy45
07-15-16, 23:23
I highly doubt this thing is over.
Meanwhile.......hundreds of Isis fighters are crossing into turkey, heavily armed.
Swell.
So Erdogan takes a German comedian to court for talking badly about him, then asks for, and is denied asylum from that same Germany?
Sent from 80ms in the future
Jimmy
BoringGuy45
07-16-16, 00:03
So, if this coup turns out to be over and done, does anyone think Erdogan will use this as his Reichstag fire?
MountainRaven
07-16-16, 00:56
So, if this coup turns out to be over and done, does anyone think Erdogan will use this as his Reichstag fire?
I think trying to run and hide will not turn out well for his political career, if the coup collapses within 72 hours of its start.
ETA: After reading the latest from the BBC, I think a comparison to Stalin would be more appropriate, as Erdogan has pledged to 'purge' Turkey's armed forces.
Well, that sucked. Not too sure why but I expected some success since so many of the people hated Erdogan for trying to push for more Presidential powers.
He's now going to solidify his footing, call for more power under the guise of preventing this from happening again, and keep leading Turkey down the road of becoming an Islamic state. I suspect he'll also consolidate the military under his office for better control.
I think trying to run and hide will not turn out well for his political career, if the coup collapses within 72 hours of its start.
ETA: After reading the latest from the BBC, I think a comparison to Stalin would be more appropriate, as Erdogan has pledged to 'purge' Turkey's armed forces.
This is just one of the roadblocks to secular Islam. Here is a country where the fighting men seem to have really tried to prevent becoming some form of quasi theocracy. The military actually upheld their oath to defend their Constitution (how rare in today's world) even if it meant being seen as "rogue."
Sadly there was enough global support for their Islamic President that their didn't seem to be a chance. Just another variation of the Arab spring where people bring about free elections and through shenanigans end up with the Muslim brotherhood.
Brave men did a gallant thing and will pay for it with their lives. The President of Turkey will continue to wage a half hearted effort against ISIS while supplying them with weapons and a flood of volunteers while our President continues to wage a half hearted effort against ISIS and beat the "Muslims as also victims" mantra as even US citizens travel to Turkey to join ISIS.
Moose-Knuckle
07-16-16, 05:27
It means that prices on MKE's are going up. In fact, I bet that Germany is behind this to eliminate competition ahead of their US MP5 release.
When news broke, my first thought was; "****! Now they're never going to import the Z-41!!!"
I ran out to my local Wal-Mart and they were sold out of all their MKE M80. Cripes!
Eurodriver
07-16-16, 05:31
When news broke, my first thought was; "****! Now they're never going to import the Z-41!!!"
I ran out to my local Wal-Mart and were they were sold out of all their MKE M80. Cripes!
Your walmart has ammo???
Moose-Knuckle
07-16-16, 05:37
Your walmart has ammo???
All three of them, today one of them even had 1K round bricks of Winchester .22LR . . .
Is ammo sold out in your AO?
Eurodriver
07-16-16, 05:42
All three of them, today one of them even had 1K round bricks of Winchester .22LR . . .
Is ammo sold out in your AO?
I will admit I don't regularly go to Walmart, but the times I do I always go to the sporting goods section and look for ammo.
Aside from $40/100 WWB of .40S&W and 30-06 deer hunting rounds I haven't seen ammo at Walmart since Sandy Hook.
Never seen Turkish MKE there even before that.
Digital_Damage
07-16-16, 07:35
Bad outcome for us, the solders in the coup were not prepared todo what was needed to win.
Now Turkey will become an even bigger haven for IsIs. You have to wonder with how this went down Erdogan might have planned all of it. He was calling for direct control of the armed forces for the last couple of years, now he will get it.
Outlander Systems
07-16-16, 07:44
Something doesn't seem quite "right" about this...
Digital_Damage
07-16-16, 07:53
oh boy...
Power to Incirlik airbase has been cut, this is the airbase the US is using to launch airstrikes.... something else is going on here.
Back in March, the Pentagon ordered military families to evacuate southern Turkey -- and primarily from Incirlik Air Base -- due to security concerns.
"The decision to move our families and civilians was made in consultation with the Government of Turkey, our State Department, and our Secretary of Defense," Gen. Philip M. Breedlove, commander of U.S. European Command, said in the statement at the time.
Digital_Damage
07-16-16, 07:57
Turkey's High Board of Prosecutors and Judges has dropped the board membership of its 5 members and 2745 judges have been suspended from their posts, the Anatolian News Agency.
Erdogan planned this whole thing....
From what I have been reading and hearing and forgive me if this is old news, is that those who are attempting thing coup are those in the Turkish military unhappy with the fact that ISIS is allowed to more or less roam free and attack the Kurdish who live in Turkey. Basically to me it sounds as if the non-crazy islamics in the Turkish military want ISIS stopped and want more Western style of democratic government.
It is sad that the current regime is so pro-islamic radicalism and dictatorship. Turkey is a beautiful country and I really like Istambul when I was there in 2011.
Outlander Systems
07-16-16, 08:52
That's, really, REALLY bad.
oh boy...
Power to Incirlik airbase has been cut, this is the airbase the US is using to launch airstrikes.... something else is going on here.
http://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/all-us-personnel-in-turkey-safe-as-operations-from-incirlik-continue-1.419447
I wonder if Erdogan just threw his country under the bus in order to establish the Muslim caliphate...
Outlander Systems
07-16-16, 09:03
CBS confirms power cut to Incirlik:
https://mobile.twitter.com/CBSWalsh/status/754309527978270720?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
RT as well:
https://www.rt.com/news/351606-usa-incirlik-base-turkey-blocked/
Folks, we've got canned sunshine there.
KalashniKEV
07-16-16, 09:25
I plead ignorance about Turkey. Are the military the good guys (anti-ISIS) or the bad guys. My pea brain needs simple choices.
The military are the secular faction. They are, however, mostly a conscript Army.
The Officers, NCOs, and SOF elements for the most part speak English and are professional. They try to be interoperable with other NATO forces. They are liberally educated and drink beer and watch sports. Good guys. I got to work with their LNO up north in OIF-IV. We also fantasized excessively about killing them if we could ever catch them executing an unauthorized border incursion.
The National Police are the Islamist faction. They operate more like the FSB than our FBI though.
I took an 8-week course with the Turkish National Police Aviation unit a few years ago. They all come from a National Police Academy (and many from an Academy prep high school) where they live 100% in the controlled environment for 4 years praying 5x daily and being brainwashed with AKP ideology. I learned all kinds of fun stuff from them like Attaturk was bisexual, died of cirrhosis because he was a filthy drunk, was a spy/ pawn of the West, etc. This was when Gezi Park was going down and they were all in agony stuck in the US and not being able to whup on some "Kemalists."
These were real shit heads. One of them told me that the NP was trying to achieve parity with the Army for the eventual showdown in terms of tanks, APCs, heavy weapons, etc. before the old Parliament told them knock it off. Supposedly every field office of the NP has some old cop who knows where the weapons are cached for the inevitable civil war. Somebody else told me that was an academy bedtime story.
Anyway, they got their advanced weapons, so hooray for the American taxpayer.
I suspect they will be more focused on ISIS and other related groups. Will probably try and make peace with the Kurds. There was a standing peace agreement until Edrogen broke it.
This.
KEV I think just had his head explode over the 28 pages otherwise he'd be here. I'd like to see his +/- on this.
The Turks see their membership in Western institutions as a shield against all their inherent badness and Evil activities. They got the NATO badge even though they didn't deserve it, because we needed them. They've been eating a ton of shit and jumping hoops to try and get into the EU, but Erdogan is ****ing it all up on human rights and support to ISIS. Now EU has a shaky future thanks to Brexit, so who even cares?
It was time to quickly and violently seize power. It worked for a while thanks to speed and surprise, but it lacked the violence of action to succeed. They needed to start killing off AKP zombies in the street and keep Erdogan on the run and frantically facetiming, while attacking all NP personnel and facilities without hesitation.
Probably it didn't work because NP is rock solid with brainwashed hardliners and the Army is full of conscripts, many of whom are AKP supporters.
In Turkey, military coups are quasi-normal: This isn't the first military coup in Turkey while Turkey has been in NATO. This is not the case with any other country in NATO.
This.
Turkey has had military coups in 1960, 1971, 1980, 1993, and 1997.
We're pretty much on frenemy status with ISIS right now.
We never stopped being friends with AQ, not even on 12 SEP 01.
There is a tremendous rift between the DoD who recognizes ISIS and AQ as our enemies and CIA and DoS who think AQ is their own special army to use against leaders they don't like.
We could potentially have SOF guys fighting SAD guys RFN.
Business_Casual
07-16-16, 10:26
One can only wonder if what is going on in turkey might happen here in the US. Just wondering.
There are many articles online that take the position that Obama has purged the flag ranks of, let us say, unreliable officers and replaced them with ideological fellow travelers...
For instance: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/07/disaster_todays_warrior_purge_in_the_us_military.html
There are, of course, plenty of voices that disagree with that premise.
Digital_Damage
07-16-16, 11:07
This has been completely staged by Erdogan...
Stories of 2,000 officers and some 25,000 soldiers have laid down their arms.
You don't have a coup with that large of a force and only have 160 casualties. Also not a single member of his cabinet or supporters in parliament were captured? What a crock of shit.
This is Erdogan giving himself the excuse to purge the military and take complete control. He is now a dictator.
Next to be purged are Kurds and anyone not Muslim. They will join the fray with Syria and establish a new middle east power.
Don't be surprised if he fabricates links to the US in all of this.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-16-16, 11:20
Bad outcome for us, the solders in the coup were not prepared todo what was needed to win.
Now Turkey will become an even bigger haven for IsIs. You have to wonder with how this went down Erdogan might have planned all of it. He was calling for direct control of the armed forces for the last couple of years, now he will get it.
Something doesn't seem quite "right" about this...
There may have been the plan by the military to stage a coup, but by having some false flag jumping the gun they can then go in and purge people based on real evidence but not relevant to this faux Coup.
Somebody actually paid attention to the Star Wars prequel's.
Cutting the power to the base get you what? Just puts the nato guys in the US on notice on who is the boss?
Outlander Systems
07-16-16, 11:32
Already read accusations of that attributed to Erdogan.
Can't locate the source again...
Don't be surprised if he fabricates links to the US in all of this.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-16-16, 12:15
This has been completely staged by Erdogan...
Stories of 2,000 officers and some 25,000 soldiers have laid down their arms.
You don't have a coup with that large of a force and only have 160 casualties. Also not a single member of his cabinet or supporters in parliament were captured? What a crock of shit.
This is Erdogan giving himself the excuse to purge the military and take complete control. He is now a dictator.
Next to be purged are Kurds and anyone not Muslim. They will join the fray with Syria and establish a new middle east power.
Don't be surprised if he fabricates links to the US in all of this.
This. Once I saw how much of a cluster the coup attempt was it was my first thought.
Outlander Systems
07-16-16, 12:35
"BREAKING: Secretary of Labor Süleyman Soylu live on news channel Haberturk: "The US is behind this coup."
https://mobile.twitter.com/TurkeyUntold/status/754362653238300672
:eek:
"BREAKING: Secretary of Labor Süleyman Soylu live on news channel Haberturk: "The US is behind this coup."
https://mobile.twitter.com/TurkeyUntold/status/754362653238300672
:eek:
The attempted coup or it's failing? Because the latter wouldn't surprise me either anymore.
The attempted coup or it's failing? Because the latter wouldn't surprise me either anymore.
Why would the US be behind the coup? Stopping the coup definitely makes sense to the US gov.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-16-16, 14:34
Why would the US be behind the coup? Stopping the coup definitely makes sense to the US gov.
The best Tom Clancy I can come up with is that the DOD would support it to in the CIA would be against it. Jack Ryan would be the rogue CA agent trying to oust the Islamists.
Anyone seriously think Barry is going to try something like this?
The best Tom Clancy I can come up with is that the DOD would support it to in the CIA would be against it. Jack Ryan would be the rogue CA agent trying to oust the Islamists.
Anyone seriously think Barry is going to try something like this?
Barry wouldnt have to be involved at all.
Outlander Systems
07-16-16, 15:23
Apparently some of the jets involved in the coup were refueled at Incilrik during the festivities.
How this isn't top ****ing news is extremely concerning.
snowdog650
07-16-16, 18:18
Erdogan planned this whole thing....
Yep. He is now purging judges as well. Just his excuse to execute any political enemies.
MountainRaven
07-16-16, 19:38
The attempted coup or it's failing? Because the latter wouldn't surprise me either anymore.
NPR is reporting that one of Erdogan's conservative rivals is in Pennsylvania and Turkey is calling for his extradition, saying that he was the brains behind the coup attempt.
BoringGuy45
07-16-16, 20:39
NPR is reporting that one of Erdogan's conservative rivals is in Pennsylvania and Turkey is calling for his extradition, saying that he was the brains behind the coup attempt.
Fethullah Gulen is Turkey's Emmanuel Goldstein.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-16-16, 22:32
So are our airmen being held hostage?
Here is an article from a Turk on the ground in Ankara. The way he paints it first resistance to the coup was religious, but then more secular Turks joined in. IDK.
Turkey’s Last Coup: What I Saw in Ankara
Selim Koru, July 16, 2016
On May 27, 1960, the people of Turkey woke up to their first coup. Soldiers occupied centers of government, established checkpoints, took over communications stations, and announced that Adnan Menderes, the prime minister at the time, had failed as a statesman, and that the military was there to stabilize the country.
Menderes was loved by a conservative base similar to President Erdogan and the AK Party’s voters today, but no one went out on the streets to protest. Menderes was tried by the coup’s court, found guilty of treason, and hanged. His supporters stayed in their homes, cried, and then went about their business. The Republic of Turkey nominally belonged to the people, but the people knew that it had never really been theirs. Whatever power they possessed was loaned to them by an elite, and that elite now wanted it back.
This set a grim precedent, and Turkish democracy suffered through coups almost every decade afterwards.
When the AK Party first came to power 2002, the possibility of a coup was very real for several years. Its Islamist past jibed badly with the military leaders of the time. But the AK Party leadership played a balancing game, promising to continue Turkey’s efforts to join the European Union in return for being able to govern. Over the years, cemented its place in power and supposedly defanged the military.
So when I heard low-flying jets while sitting in my Ankara apartment, I didn’t think it could be a coup. The first thing that came to mind was the possibility of a terrorist attack. ISIL has been increasingly targeting Turkey, and only the day before there had been a bloody attack on civilians in Nice. I received several calls from people asking me what was going on, and though we discussed the possibility of a coup, we all thought the chances were low. That sort of thing was done with.
Only very slowly did we come to understand what it was. In a phone-in with a news channel, the prime minister said that it was “an uprising” among some in the military, and that it would be put down quickly. Then came statements from the junta. It was calling itself the “Yurtta Sulh Konseyi,” meaning “Peace at Home Council,” a play on the famous words of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the founder of modern Turkey. Like coups before it, it was trying to take control of or suppress government organs and communications channels. The state television broadcast was stopped, and a speaker read a text stating that the government had failed in its duties and that the military was taking control of the situation. All of Turkey’s international obligations would be honored, everybody should just stay home, it said. I actually pinched myself to make sure it was real.
Unlike in decades past, however, Turks had plenty of private channels to flick around on to see what was going on and receive instructions. Twitter and Facebook were blocked, but slightly tech-savvy people just used VPNs (virtual private networks) to connect. The coup plotters must have thought that they could do their work without effectively blocking communications.
I left my apartment because it felt wrong to sit there while things were happening outside. There were no bombs going off yet, but low-flying jets made for an ominous feeling, and the streets were empty. I stuck to side alleys and made my way to a friend’s place. Only in one place did I have to cross the Cinnah boulevard, which leads to the old presidential palace. It was quiet until I heard a rumbling from below and saw the lights of an unusually large vehicle climbing up the hill. The tank was followed by six to nine more. I could see the soldiers on top of them, and it occurred to me that I must be one of the very few, if not the only person they’d seen on the streets. I turned away awkwardly and stuck out my phone to record their ascent.
I arrived at my friend’s place and we watched the news. It looked as if President Erdogan was in mid-flight returning from a vacation, and then he connected to CNN Turk through a Facetime call. It was surreal watching the president addressing two journalists from a cell phone screen. Saying that the coup attempt was led by a small cadre within the military, he called on citizens to take to public squares and airports to face the tanks. “Whatever they will do to the people, they should do it there. I have not recognized a power greater than that of the people, and will not ever do so.”
This was a big deal. Conservatives in Turkey since Menderes’ time were a silent majority. But today, after nearly 15 years of being in government, they had changed. They would fight, and there would likely be blood. When I called friends in the AK Party, they were already on their way to the party’s headquarters or to the airport. Social media accounts close to the government were calling on everyone to take to the streets, no matter the cost.
But there was not a peep where I was in Ayrancı and Gaziosmanpaşa, some of Ankara’s most affluent districts. One friend, a teacher in a private school in Istanbul, was terrified of the sound of jets, and when I approached the window, she implored me to back away. I went out to walk to Kugulu Park, thinking that there might be a few people to rally there, but there wasn’t. Most secular liberals, the people who had faced police and tear gas during the Gezi Park protests in 2013 were staying put. This does not mean that they were happy about the coup – none I spoke to were – but rather that their fear was more pronounced than their anger.
The booming of jets was near-constant, but was now met with chants from mosques. At first it was a standard call to prayer, which was odd, since it was well past prayer time. By authority of the president and head of Diyanet, Turkey’s religious authority, loudspeakers called upon people to leave their homes and occupy central locations in resistance to the coup. Most of the rest was “sala,” Islamic chants or messages spread from the minarets of mosques. The people’s resistance would have an Islamic character.
Soon it became clear from social media and noise coming from the region that people had gathered in front of parliament. Chants of takbir (“Allahu Akbar,” meaning “God is great”) began to rise from the distance. It was audible kilometers away, punctuated only by machine gun fire, the booming of jets, and the bombs falling on parliament. I approached parliament alone, but saw that there were soldiers on their way to the front of the building, where the crowd was. What appeared to be an armored personnel carrier with young soldiers holding a Turkish flag drove away, which made me think that they were done dispersing the crowd of civilians resisting the soldiers.
There were still soldiers though, and being the desk jockey I am, I stayed back. A hospital nearby had taken some of the sick beds into the lobby, presumably because they thought they might have to evacuate the hospital quickly. People looked scared. A bunch of us huddled together to watch Erdogan’s message from Atatürk airport in Istanbul, where he had finally landed. Various theories about Fethullah Gülen, the sonic booms of jet engines, and Erdogan’s vacation residence made the rounds. By the time I got home (to my mother’s elation), the sun was beginning to come up. I got a couple of hours of sleep, showered, and made my way to parliament, which was now cleared of the junta.
There was a crowd of hundreds if not thousands of people still there. Vans were dropping off bottles of water and Turkish flags. Having won the night’s battle, many were resting under the shades of the trees across the street from the police headquarters. Then a group of police special forces arrived, and hundreds streamed up front to greet them. There were designated people to keep the crowd from crushing them. Chants of “polise uzanan eller kırılsın,” (“may the hands seeking to harm the police be broken!”) and “Türkiye sizinle gurur duyuyor!” (“Turkey is proud of you!”) rose from the crowd. The most popular chant by far however, was “Allahu Akbar,” and there was a vindictive feeling in the takbir, as if it that elation had been caged up for too long.
These people were not from my neighborhood up the hill, but from Ankara’s various poorer districts. An overwhelming majority were male, with lean faces and sunburnt skin. Rather than the urbane “Istanbul Turkish,” they spoke in various Anatolian accents, and a few wore traditional Islamic garb the way Arabs do. Many used hand signs with their slogans, either the sign of takbir, an extended index finger (which in Turkey suggests political Islamism) or the sign of the gray wolf, (which belongs to the nationalist party). It was these people who had faced down the junta’s tanks.
Many Turks on the left are already uncomfortable with this, pointing out that the same group is known for beating up journalists and oppressing minority groups. Their actions, they say, were more motivated by the will to hold on to power than by a love for democracy. They have a point, but it doesn’t change the fact that the night could well have been lost if not for their actions.
The crowd now gathered in front of the police headquarters, and the police were having a hard time containing it. A police chief climbed on top of something and held up a framed photo of Erdogan. It was hard for him to speak through the crowd’s chanting, but when he did, it was generally to calm down the crowd, tell them to go home, or insult the Gülenists. All the while, he held up the president’s framed photo for so long that it made me wonder how his arm wasn’t getting tired. The crowd was now calling for the junta to be put to death.
Around noontime, more people started to arrive. There were now more women, older people, men wearing shorts and women without headscarves. The secular types were joining the party. There were now occasional recitations of the national anthem, as well as the “10th year march,” both of which suggest secular republican sensibilities. But the larger crowd went along, and the mood was festive. People were passing out water to each other, and I spotted prayer groups as I was leaving.
It is difficult to make predictions about how the coup attempt will change things in Turkey. What is certain is that the country’s major political factions will often refer to it to define themselves in the future. The opposition will be rightly proud of having denounced it early on, before anyone knew which way it would go. Secular-leaning media organizations like Dogan News, which owns CNN Turk, will point out that they resisted the junta even as its forces entered its building.
But more than anything else, the 15th of July will be remembered as a pivotal moment for the political right. Erdogan and his cadre have been mentally preparing for a coup ever since they rose to power in 2002. The danger was especially high during the AK Party government’s initial years and always remained on their minds since. It is true that as far as coups in Turkey go, this one was poorly planned and lacking in execution, but that won’t matter. The AK Party’s nearly 15-year long struggle to tame the leviathan now feels complete. The party’s conservative base feels an ownership of the state like never before.
It is hard to predict where things will go from here. At worst, the coup will encourage the AK Party’s worst attributes and serve as a stepping-stone to a regime that will make the country inhospitable to others. At best, it will be a uniting force in the country’s politics that leads to a new consensus. Time will tell.
Selim Koru is an analyst at the Economic Policy Research Foundation of Turkey (TEPAV), where he focuses on Turkey’s relations with the Middle East and Asia. You can follow him @SelimKoru.
http://warontherocks.com/2016/07/turkeys-last-coup-what-i-saw-in-ankara/
So are our airmen being held hostage?
Doubt it. There are apparently tactical nukes at Incirlik Air Base.
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-16, 03:00
I will admit I don't regularly go to Walmart, but the times I do I always go to the sporting goods section and look for ammo.
Aside from $40/100 WWB of .40S&W and 30-06 deer hunting rounds I haven't seen ammo at Walmart since Sandy Hook.
Never seen Turkish MKE there even before that.
The Turkish MKE stuff has only been coming in the last two years or so once Zenith partnered with MKE to import their rollerlock guns. Their ammo is branded ZQI and I cannot find 7.62 NATO ammo anywhere cheaper, WM sells twenty round boxes of MKE M80 for $9.97. I've seen MKE 5.56 and 9mm at WM from time to time.
But good news, I found a WM tonight that had MKE 7.62!
So hopefully when the dust settles from this "coup" we'll still get MKE guns and ammo imported.
Outlander Systems
07-17-16, 07:35
26 Inf, thanks for posting that.
I've often said you have to watch what you ask for, like democracy in the Middle East. What happens and how do you deal with a country that popularly elects Islamists? Reference the Palestinians and Hamas, Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood, now Turkey with apparent popular support for the slide into a less secular state.
I guess in future conflicts with such countries you could have a looser ROE since "collateral damage" would effect people who actually support and are responsible for the government you would be fighting. Not that we'd go back to a WWII-style carpet bombing of cities or such, but the population itself could be considered "hostile".
Only other problem is that some of these countries don't just have two main candidates running like we do. It is quite possible that someone would win an election over there with a good deal less than a majority (didn't Erdogan win with a small percentage?). That then means it is quite possible that a minority runs the country and the majority of the population wouldn't necessarily be "hostile".
Black and white morphs to gray real quickly.......
Outlander Systems
07-17-16, 08:28
ABNAK, affirmative. Erdogan won with something like 12% of the vote...
Averageman
07-17-16, 08:54
ABNAK, affirmative. Erdogan won with something like 12% of the vote...
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-purge-begins-in-turkey
The coup in Turkey is over, and now the purge begins.On Saturday,
Turkish soldiers and police—those who had remained loyal to President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan during the uncertain hours of the previous day—were rounding up their enemies across the security services, reportedly arresting thousands. There will be thousands more. In the high-stakes world of Turkish politics—nominally democratic but played with authoritarian ferocity—justice for the losers will be swift and brutal.
The remarkable thing about Friday’s coup attempt is not that it failed, but that, after years of Erdoğan’s relentless purging of his opposition, there was a faction inside the Turkish military strong enough to mount one at all.
Well now it would appear he's abut to purge the military.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-17-16, 09:55
I do business with some Turkish guys who insists that 9/11 was a Jewish plot. Now I can make fun of them for their own false flag op.
They will probably still blame the Jews.
Averageman
07-17-16, 09:56
I do business with some Turkish guys who insists that 9/11 was a Jewish plot. Now I can make fun of them for their own false flag op.
They will probably still blame the Jews.
Well isn't Turkey Kosher?
KalashniKEV
07-17-16, 09:57
Sucks:
http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2016_28/1623476/160716-world-turkey-anger-soldiers-kick-0556_b7dfa1104456478e14e5666c33420274.nbcnews-ux-1024-900.jpg
Dudes getting whipped on and kicked by civvies who will eventually try them all in AKP kangaroo court and kill them.
They needed to kill more in the opening phase to ensure the success of the coup and keep people inside. They needed to strike National Police targets instead of stupid parliament, keep crowds from forming, and keep Erdogan on the run. They totally had it in the bag when he was asking for asylum, they shut down the radio and TV, and seized the airport.
They totally blew it because they didn't want to kill their countrymen.
OT:
The Turkish MKE stuff has only been coming in the last two years or so once Zenith partnered with MKE to import their rollerlock guns.
All the same Turkish stuff (and more) was coming in from ATI before that.
MKE is party controlled. Interesting news somewhat recently:
The manager of Turkey's major arms producer MKE's Kırıkkale factory, Mustafa Tanrıverdi, was detained on Thursday by security forces on charges of 'espionage'. Tanrıverdi was arrested later on the same day for "exploiting state secrets" and "disloyalty to the state."
Mustafa Tanriverdi has been appointed to his director post by Erdogan and the AK Party family.
Tanrıverdi was caught red-handed trying to sell all of the mechanical drawings and production plans of the National Infantry Rifle MPT76 to an American arms supplier for $1.2 million, the R&D of which cost the Defense Ministry $22 million.
That could have been interesting. Whoever comes to the table with a rock solid AR-10 type at a not-stupid price will own the game and control the "standard" pattern.
KalashniKEV
07-17-16, 10:00
Meanwhile, ****ing 30m away from getting your ass beat with a belt by some bearded cave man:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/160716071635-03-turkey-coup-0715-large-169.jpg
Whiskey_Bravo
07-17-16, 10:15
reports are saying over 2,700 judges have been arrested. It's going to be a much different country now.
Averageman
07-17-16, 10:20
Well, Bring on the Caliphate !
KalashniKEV
07-17-16, 10:26
Well, Bring on the Caliphate !
The Caliphate is next door. This is the Sultanate.
Averageman
07-17-16, 10:28
The Caliphate is next door. This is the Sultanate.
I'm pretty sure the doors are open. It's not going to be good for the Kurds.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-17-16, 10:31
I'm pretty sure the doors are open. It's not going to be good for the Kurds.
This is my fear as well. And we will sit on our hands and do nothing. Obumer will continue to say we must support Erdogan no matter what actions he takes.
Man, has there ever in history been a bright side to being a Turkish soldier....
Sucks:
Dudes getting whipped on and kicked by civvies who will eventually try them all in AKP kangaroo court and kill them.
They needed to kill more in the opening phase to ensure the success of the coup and keep people inside. They needed to strike National Police targets instead of stupid parliament, keep crowds from forming, and keep Erdogan on the run. They totally had it in the bag when he was asking for asylum, they shut down the radio and TV, and seized the airport.
They totally blew it because they didn't want to kill their countrymen.
Lack of commitment. They obviously didnt think through their path. Coups rarely end without one side getting their purge on. This is something that the guys going should have contemplated before taking their first steps. Better die on your feet fighting than being part of some kangaroo curt and execution.
Erdogan will spend the next weeks whacking anyone who he so much as feels may have thought of slighting him. He will consolidate his power base to become a dictator (not that he wasnt close enough already)
Feel sorry for the Kurds. The Obummer will leave them flapping in the breeze to become the next wave of Great Infidel haters. Nice legacy asshole.
Lack of commitment. They obviously didnt think through their path. Coups rarely end without one side getting their purge on. This is something that the guys going should have contemplated before taking their first steps. Better die on your feet fighting than being part of some kangaroo curt and execution.
Those guys look like PV1's and PV2's who followed the lead of their PSG's, PL's, and CO's. The BN and DIV CO's had exfil plans.
Again, forgive me for my ignorance.
Aren't Kurds communists, or socialist, or something?
Erdogan or whatever his name is.......he is calling for bringing back the death penalty. Sounds like this attempted coup is giving him carte blanch on rule making. Anyone against him is gonna get clipped.
KalashniKEV
07-17-16, 22:46
Again, forgive me for my ignorance.
Aren't Kurds communists, or socialist, or something?
No, you're thinking of Americans.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-18-16, 00:10
Man, has there ever in history been a bright side to being a Turkish soldier....
I am thinking not so much
Moose-Knuckle
07-18-16, 03:31
All the same Turkish stuff (and more) was coming in from ATI before that.
MKE is party controlled. Interesting news somewhat recently:
Originally Posted by http://ufilter.blogspot.com/2016/04/mustafa-tanrverdi-manager-of-turkeys.html
The manager of Turkey's major arms producer MKE's Kırıkkale factory, Mustafa Tanrıverdi, was detained on Thursday by security forces on charges of 'espionage'. Tanrıverdi was arrested later on the same day for "exploiting state secrets" and "disloyalty to the state."
Mustafa Tanriverdi has been appointed to his director post by Erdogan and the AK Party family.
Tanrıverdi was caught red-handed trying to sell all of the mechanical drawings and production plans of the National Infantry Rifle MPT76 to an American arms supplier for $1.2 million, the R&D of which cost the Defense Ministry $22 million.
That could have been interesting. Whoever comes to the table with a rock solid AR-10 type at a not-stupid price will own the game and control the "standard" pattern.
Well shit, I was looking forward to the MPT-76 as well as the Z-41. Sounds like the whole Zennith MKE thing may unravel after this debacle. . .
For those who don't know what we are talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XV9RbE8IWI
Digital_Damage
07-18-16, 17:19
Erdogan or whatever his name is.......he is calling for bringing back the death penalty. Sounds like this attempted coup is giving him carte blanch on rule making. Anyone against him is gonna get clipped.
yep, they have rounded up 7600 citizens as well. Most of them from other political parties.
BoringGuy45
07-18-16, 17:30
Again, forgive me for my ignorance.
Aren't Kurds communists, or socialist, or something?
There's the Kurdistan Workers' Party, which is a communist movement that hails back to the good old days of the Cold War. They are listed as a terrorist organization by the U.S. However, outside the KWP, the Kurds are generally among the more moderate groups, religiously and politically, in the Middle East.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-18-16, 17:32
Does anybody know the status of the Americans at Incirilik airbase? I read air space and movement was restricted, as well as electrical service had been cut on Saturday but I am assuming it has opened back up? I came across this article saying Turkish police and investigators raided the base and were searching it? Anybody have more insight?
http://www.theeventchronicle.com/news/middle-east/turkish-police-raid-incirlik-airbase-us-led-coalition-jets-based/#
http://sputniknews.com/world/20160718/1043237189/turkish-coup-threatens-american-nukes.html
https://www.rt.com/news/351606-usa-incirlik-base-turkey-blocked/
Moose-Knuckle
07-18-16, 17:39
Does anybody know the status of the Americans at Incirilik airbase?
IIRC we had/have nuclear ordinance in Turkey?
Whiskey_Bravo
07-18-16, 17:41
IIRC we had/have nuclear ordinance in Turkey?
I believe so yes.
Before NATO Summit in Warsaw Turkey PM announces Russia will be allowed to station forces at Incirlik airbase. After coup some govt sources in Turkey point on US to blame as inspiration. Incirlik base get cut off and coalition air force grounded removing ability to provide CAS for Kurds fighting IS. Pilots of F16s that downed RuAF SU-24 are arrested for being part of coup. 2 "rebel" F16s got target lock at Erdogans jet and his 2 F16s escort. They were unable to open fire for some reason and escorting F16 did not engage them as well. Do you see pattern here?
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-19-16, 07:44
Russians stationed at a NATO airbase? So many levels of WTF.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-19-16, 16:54
Russians stationed at a NATO airbase? So many levels of WTF.
And a NATO base with nukes. Double and triple wtf.
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