View Full Version : American Defense BCG vs Toolcraft vs others?
EDIT: Picked up ADM BCG, see Page #4 for pictures/info
Hey all, first post here, but long time lurker!
Been looking at BCG's to finish off my build which is pretty much a BCM upper and complete BCM blemished lower (if I can get my hands on one)
How do ADM BCG's stack up against say Colt or BCM BCG's?
I have also been looking at Toolcraft BCG's as an alternative to ADM/Colt/BCM.
Am I better off getting a BCM to go with the rest of the BCM products, or are the other alternatives (ADM/Toolcraft) just as good?
Main purpose for the rifle is a fighting rifle. I want to be able to run it hard in classes/trainings, HD, SHTF/save my life kind of rifle.
Thanks in advance!
Livefreeordie92
07-16-16, 00:43
Just go with a BCM.
Toolcraft is GTG. No experience with ADM and don't know what the standing of nitrided bolts is these days.
My vote goes to Toolcraft. They are in field replacement for our mil. They are as good if not better than colt. I have two currently and one I sold but not before putting 5k through it with zero part replacement bolt didnt show any cracking anywhere including cam hole area. Had one in my PSA upper which I put over 3k through and long sold it but the BCG I kept and moved to my retro build with worn colt m16a2 upper from marine. The bcg have total round count of about 4k now and it look worse (more wear but still plenty good for at least 3k more) than any bcg I ever saw for its round count due to abuse in psa upper being grossly overgassed even after adding red coded springco and modified st-t2 buffer.
It helps that the value of toolcraft are unrivaled with emphasis on how the level of quality is up there. I religiously only buy toolcraft with 158cm bolt and is hpt/mpi. I speak and recommend for only those. You can get those from PSA and wcarmory for cheaper than whatever BCM priced their and what ADM go for.
My second choice would be BCM with faith that they would last lick longer although I would go back to toolcraft if that is not the case.
But I truly desire LMT improved bolt for their unrivaled longevity for milspec bolt. (looking at you kac e3)
I know nothing of ADM BCG as of now but I believe if my memory serves seeing them once before they are not standard shaped as having flared tail and other doo hicky features and the price is much higher based on that.
Stick to companies that have been doing it for long time or has prove that they know what they are doing with sufficient size reports of folks giving thumb up from their high round count shooting.
Be warned toolcraft bcg might look beautiful made or roughly made I have both but they will run and run. Toolcraft having some difficulty closing into extension first time or first 30 hand cycling is completely normal.
Just an FYI. Toolcraft doesn't make the bolt. They make the carrier only.
My vote goes to Toolcraft. They are in field replacement for our mil. They are as good if not better than colt. I have two currently and one I sold but not before putting 5k through it with zero part replacement bolt didnt show any cracking anywhere including cam hole area. Had one in my PSA upper which I put over 3k through and long sold it but the BCG I kept and moved to my retro build with worn colt m16a2 upper from marine. The bcg have total round count of about 4k now and it look worse (more wear but still plenty good for at least 3k more) than any bcg I ever saw for its round count due to abuse in psa upper being grossly overgassed even after adding red coded springco and modified st-t2 buffer.
It helps that the value of toolcraft are unrivaled with emphasis on how the level of quality is up there. I religiously only buy toolcraft with 158cm bolt and is hpt/mpi. I speak and recommend for only those. You can get those from PSA and wcarmory for cheaper than whatever BCM priced their and what ADM go for.
My second choice would be BCM with faith that they would last lick longer although I would go back to toolcraft if that is not the case.
But I truly desire LMT improved bolt for their unrivaled longevity for milspec bolt. (looking at you kac e3)
I know nothing of ADM BCG as of now but I believe if my memory serves seeing them once before they are not standard shaped as having flared tail and other doo hicky features and the price is much higher based on that.
Stick to companies that have been doing it for long time or has prove that they know what they are doing with sufficient size reports of folks giving thumb up from their high round count shooting.
Be warned toolcraft bcg might look beautiful made or roughly made I have both but they will run and run. Toolcraft having some difficulty closing into extension first time or first 30 hand cycling is completely normal.
Just an FYI. Toolcraft doesn't make the bolt. They make the carrier only.
Well, who makes the bolt?
Well, who makes the bolt?
Interested in this info as well!!
In my experience Toolcraft is every bit as nice as BCGs that cost $60 more. I'd pick (and have picked) Toolcraft over the couple BCM bcgs I have.
Singlestack Wonder
07-18-16, 13:18
Why not stick with a known quality and robust BCG such as BCM? The additional $$'s paid will be long forgotten years from now while the BCG is still performing while watching other lower end BCG's failing at the range.
Just an FYI. Toolcraft doesn't make the bolt. They make the carrier only.
Ah didnt know that. Im interested in finding out who make the replacement bolt. I suspect its colt.
Toolcraft's just as known. There's multiple reports of toolcraft doing good from guys with high rounds all over web including guy from vegas machine gun range who ran PSA with toolcraft for over 10k in FA and give two thumb up.
Alnamvet68
07-18-16, 15:40
Another relatively unknown manufacturer of BCG's with a large DOD contract is Microbest. That said, I too am curious to know who this mysterious manufacturer(s) of AR15 bolts is; or are. IMHO, buy a 100% milspec carrier group from Toolcraft or Microbest, and dispense with the cachet of these boutique BCG's with gaudy logos; and save $60 to $90.00 in the process. The fact that these two offer a no BS no questions asked warranty is just icing on the cake.
wildcard600
07-18-16, 16:31
BCM.
Or Sionics if you want something besides regular parkerized finish.
Microbest doesn't sell to the public.
Another relatively unknown manufacturer of BCG's with a large DOD contract is Microbest. That said, I too am curious to know who this mysterious manufacturer(s) of AR15 bolts is; or are. IMHO, buy a 100% milspec carrier group from Toolcraft or Microbest, and dispense with the cachet of these boutique BCG's with gaudy logos; and save $60 to $90.00 in the process. The fact that these two offer a no BS no questions asked warranty is just icing on the cake.
Alnamvet68
07-19-16, 04:27
Microbest doesn't sell to the public.
Yes,I am aware of that, but they wind up in the hands of the public in OEM equipment in complete guns from any number of manufacturers. So, who makes the bolts?
Alnamvet68
07-20-16, 09:01
After doing a bit of research, along with some phone calls for verification, the following manufacturers verbally acknowledged making AR15 bolts (as well as making the carrier assembly):
Bushmaster
American Built Arms Co
Microbest
ToolCraft *
Now, what I did find was that none of the above list were willing to say who they supply these bolts to, though with a bit of digging, Microbest did say that S&W uses their BCG's.
If you know of any additional manufacturers of AR15 bolts, please post.
*ToolCraft acknowledged they made their line of BCG's, but were not very forthcoming as to whether that included the 158 bolts...they did say they do make the 9310 steel bolts offered on some of their BCG's, but stopped short of saying if they also make the 158 Carpenter bolts.
After doing a bit of research, along with some phone calls for verification, the following manufacturers verbally acknowledged making AR15 bolts (as well as making the carrier assembly):
Colt
Bushmaster
American Built Arms Co
Microbest
ToolCraft *
Now, what I did find was that none of the above list were willing to say who they supply these bolts to, though with a bit of digging, Microbest did say that S&W uses their BCG's.
If you know of any additional manufacturers of AR15 bolts, please post.
*ToolCraft acknowledged they made their line of BCG's, but were not very forthcoming as to whether that included the 158 bolts...they did say they do make the 9310 steel bolts offered on some of their BCG's, but stopped short of saying if they also make the 158 Carpenter bolts.
Add Azimuth.
Alnamvet68
07-20-16, 10:13
Add Azimuth.
I forgot about them, though their Relia-bolt, an improvement in AR15 bolt design, is not yet accepted as a milspec alternative.
I forgot about them, though their Relia-bolt, an improvement in AR15 bolt design, is not yet accepted as a milspec alternative.
I don't believe the Reliabolt was their idea. They might machine it for the company that wanted it, but it wasn't their do it, I don't believe.
After doing a bit of research, along with some phone calls for verification, the following manufacturers verbally acknowledged making AR15 bolts (as well as making the carrier assembly):
Colt
Bushmaster
American Built Arms Co
Microbest
ToolCraft *
Now, what I did find was that none of the above list were willing to say who they supply these bolts to, though with a bit of digging, Microbest did say that S&W uses their BCG's.
If you know of any additional manufacturers of AR15 bolts, please post.
*ToolCraft acknowledged they made their line of BCG's, but were not very forthcoming as to whether that included the 158 bolts...they did say they do make the 9310 steel bolts offered on some of their BCG's, but stopped short of saying if they also make the 158 Carpenter bolts.
For some reason, I have my doubts about Colt manufacturing their own bolts and carriers.
Alnamvet68
07-20-16, 10:50
I don't believe the Reliabolt was their idea. They might machine it for the company that wanted it, but it wasn't their do it, I don't believe.
No, the Sharps Rifle company applied for a patent...Azimuth Technology manufactures the bolt, so they are also a manufacturer of AR15 bolts.
Alnamvet68
07-20-16, 10:52
For some reason, I have my doubts about Colt manufacturing their own bolts and carriers.
I too have my doubts, since the person I spoke with stated Colt makes every part of their AR15, which is not the case.
I only had BCM BCG's as of today when I received one of those PSA 99$ free shipping "premium" branded BCG I had ordered last week for a truck AR pistol. I would be shocked if the same manufacturer made the PSA bolt and the BCM bolt. The BCM bcg looks and operates MILES better and smoother than the PSA. The cotter pin holding the FP in was a pain in the ass to get back in due to it being gapped to wide at the end. The bolt itself you have to knock it on the table to get it to seat into the carrier. Not impressed at all with PSA BCG.
I for one will not be buying anymore BCG's that are not BCM.
They don't last time I checked.
For some reason, I have my doubts about Colt manufacturing their own bolts and carriers.
eightpoint
07-20-16, 22:09
They don't last time I checked.
So who makes the bolts for Toolcraft? If you don't know or won't say, just say so. Information is good for the end user, which is what this site is all about.
I'm not going to speculate. I just know that they do not make their own bolts. My quote above was referring to Colt.
So who makes the bolts for Toolcraft? If you don't know or won't say, just say so. Information is good for the end user, which is what this site is all about.
I only had BCM BCG's as of today when I received one of those PSA 99$ free shipping "premium" branded BCG I had ordered last week for a truck AR pistol. I would be shocked if the same manufacturer made the PSA bolt and the BCM bolt. The BCM bcg looks and operates MILES better and smoother than the PSA. The cotter pin holding the FP in was a pain in the ass to get back in due to it being gapped to wide at the end. The bolt itself you have to knock it on the table to get it to seat into the carrier. Not impressed at all with PSA BCG.
I for one will not be buying anymore BCG's that are not BCM.
I recently bought a Colt BCG that fits the description of your PSA(with the exception of the firing pin retaining pin being easy, but the cam pin was a PITA ) while 4 PSA premium groups I have were comparatively smooth and certainly did not require force to remove/ install bolt or cam pin.
I recently bought a Colt BCG that fits the description of your PSA(with the exception of the firing pin retaining pin being easy, but the cam pin was a PITA ) while 4 PSA premium groups I have were comparatively smooth and certainly did not require force to remove/ install bolt or cam pin.
My 3xPSA Premium BCGs have been all the same as yours. The staking is less than desirable but a punch solves that. Bolts are MPI/HPT marked. On a side note, I was perusing a FN 20" AR and it had the same exact BCG as PSA offers in their Premium No Logo ones. The staking was more aggressive on the FN though.
I'm not going to speculate. I just know that they do not make their own bolts. My quote above was referring to Colt.
Who manufactures for Colt?
Alnamvet68
07-21-16, 16:21
Who manufactures for Colt?
I suspect it's Microbest...they supply Smith and Wesson.
Guess you might actually have to be employed by Colt to know this but are their commercially used BCG's pulled from the same order/delivery/whatever as their military ones?
I only had BCM BCG's as of today when I received one of those PSA 99$ free shipping "premium" branded BCG I had ordered last week for a truck AR pistol. I would be shocked if the same manufacturer made the PSA bolt and the BCM bolt. The BCM bcg looks and operates MILES better and smoother than the PSA. The cotter pin holding the FP in was a pain in the ass to get back in due to it being gapped to wide at the end. The bolt itself you have to knock it on the table to get it to seat into the carrier. Not impressed at all with PSA BCG.
I for one will not be buying anymore BCG's that are not BCM.
As I've said in other threads, same manufacturer does not mean same quality. The spec is between the manufacturer and their customer (your vendor ).
As I've said in other threads, same manufacturer does not mean same quality. The spec is between the manufacturer and their customer (your vendor ).
And a sample of 1 is what it is. Colt isn't junk, but I expected the gas rings to be deformed by the time I got the bolt popped out of the carrier.
For all the same reasons a factory can make barrels / optics / what-have-you for X, Y, and Z brand, with the 'quality' being from budget to high end. Specifications, features, tolerances, and QC.
I appreciate everyone's input. I decided to go ahead and order an American Defense Mcg. milspec BCG. Specs look good, and I have heard nothing but good things about their other products. Plus it was on sale for $90.00
Figure for that price it is worth giving a shot and I am sure if there is a problem they will stand behind their product. I will be sure to share my thoughts when it arrives and I get some rounds down range with it!
Where did you find an ADM BCG for $90 please? I need one.
PrivateCitizen
07-26-16, 11:57
Where did you find an ADM BCG for $90 please? I need one.
Direct from the manufacturer
https://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/view/product/884/description/
Direct from the manufacturer
https://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/view/product/884/description/
Thanks bro. Got it!
Got my ADM Mil-spec" phosphate BCG in the mail today. Looks pretty good to me but figured I would post some pictures to get the official approval from the more knowledgeable!
-Won't have a chance to shoot it until early next week.
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General impressions:
-BCG came with no oil/lube. Took care of that myself
-showed slight handling marks/had some carbon build up (shows me it was HPT/test fired as stated) so I am okay with that
-Bolt is pretty stiff, assuming this is due to being BRAND NEW, and a needs some rounds down range
-Firing pin chrome finish is more of a dull finish
-Chrome lining inside carrier is also more of a dull finish
Concerns:
-Is the staking adequate?
-Should the chrome finish inside the carrier be more dull or should it be more of a shiny chrome finish?
-How does the firing pin look?
A 2012 guns and ammo article provided a tour of the Colt factory. The pictures included in the article showcased tons of raw forgings, barrels, and bolts + carriers on lathes, all inside the factory. Surely, when demand and various other market factors peak, Colt sources materials from other places, but this article made clear that Colt was generally making their gear in house. Im no industry insider so what do i know, but the anecdotal evidence suggests that Colt is making most of their own stuff. Grant has expressed that they are making most of their own stuff. Im definitely biased... Ive been so impressed with Colt BCGs that i run a Colt BCG in every upper i own; i haven't always, but i do now and I don't plan on changing course unless something unforeseen occurs.
TBL65, regarding your BCG, perhaps its just the pictures, but the gas key fasteners look to be something other than domestic grade 8 fasteners. what are those markings on the tops of those fasteners?
Alnamvet68
07-29-16, 06:30
The gas key fasteners look to be of foreign production, and the staking is definitely not adequate.
A 2012 guns and ammo article provided a tour of the Colt factory. The pictures included in the article showcased tons of raw forgings, barrels, and bolts + carriers on lathes, all inside the factory. Surely, when demand and various other market factors peak, Colt sources materials from other places, but this article made clear that Colt was generally making their gear in house. Im no industry insider so what do i know, but the anecdotal evidence suggests that Colt is making most of their own stuff. Grant has expressed that they are making most of their own stuff. Im definitely biased... Ive been so impressed with Colt BCGs that i run a Colt BCG in every upper i own; i haven't always, but i do now and I don't plan on changing course unless something unforeseen occurs.
TBL65, regarding your BCG, perhaps its just the pictures, but the gas key fasteners look to be something other than domestic grade 8 fasteners. what are those markings on the tops of those fasteners?
Sorry for the bad pictures, I will try and get some better ones today since the lighting will be better!
The markings on the fasteners as best that I can tell say GR (a dot) 8
The gas key fasteners look to be of foreign production, and the staking is definitely not adequate.
pardon my ignorance how do you visually tell a us made screw vs not??
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
Couple more, hopefully better photo's. Fasteners are definitely marked GR (dot) 8. Still somewhat questioning the staking.
407034070440705
Couple more, hopefully better photo's. Fasteners are definitely marked GR (dot) 8. Still somewhat questioning the staking.
Does the staking make contact with the screws? It looks like at least a couple of them don't.
Alnamvet68
07-29-16, 10:41
pardon my ignorance how do you visually tell a us made screw vs not??
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
It's an assumption on my part... looking at my Colt 6920 BCG, a S&W Microbest BCG, and a ToolCraft BCG, there are no letter/number markings on the bolts.
sundance435
07-29-16, 10:52
Couple more, hopefully better photo's. Fasteners are definitely marked GR (dot) 8. Still somewhat questioning the staking.
407034070440705
The stake on the top left of your first photo looks like it might have minimal contact with the fastener, but the others are definitely not staked properly/adequately.
For someone with a BCG that needs better staking, is it safe to assume a competent user with a vice, punch, and hammer can fix the issue?
The stake on the top left of your first photo looks like it might have minimal contact with the fastener, but the others are definitely not staked properly/adequately.
After reviewing the staking in more direct light, it appears that all make contact with the fasteners, but it is minimal on most and one appears to be on the boarder line of making contact and not making contact
For someone with a BCG that needs better staking, is it safe to assume a competent user with a vice, punch, and hammer can fix the issue?
I assume this could be a fix, however I ordered from ADM based on their known quality for other components. So it is a slight frustration to get a product that does not live up to the quality they are known to produce.
Hopefully someone with better knowledge can confirm that the staking could be done with a hammer and punch.
The stake on the top left of your first photo looks like it might have minimal contact with the fastener, but the others are definitely not staked properly/adequately.
Your internet X-ray vision must be better than mine as I could not have stated that as fact given the pics. :-)
I've started to look for more than just a smear at the surface, as the contact can be lower.
And some of the best mfg's delivering to the military do not have big surface smears, nor are they necessarily a good thing to have. In fact, the TM on restaking calls out against too much deformation of the key.
I'm not trying to say the staking in this case is sufficient, just that it would be very hard to tell from the pics.
If I had more time and money I'd do an "untorquing" test to get a baseline on different staking techniques.
Couple of things are becoming clear to me: The staking effect can be obtained at the factory in some cases without obvious surface smears. (Ex: LMT's new staking approach, etc) And folks are starting to assume if it's not a MOAKS type stake that it's improper.
It appears newer bcgs from known & respected mfgs are starting to come with machine made staking that is narrower and less surface deformation, yet actually contact the screw quite well.
No slight to the MOAKS tool, just that the internet lore is carrying a reasonable deformation to extremes at times in what they consider "good staking". When in fact, it might not meet spec in max deformation.
The gas key fasteners look to be of foreign production, and the staking is definitely not adequate.
Staking looks fine. You are really good if you can identify the bolts from the picture. Really good. How would foreign = bad anyway. I would trust some foreign stuff better than union made here.
Alnamvet68
07-29-16, 16:23
Staking looks fine. You are really good if you can identify the bolts from the picture. Really good. How would foreign = bad anyway. I would trust some foreign stuff better than union made here.
You have got to have quite a fertile and vivid imagination to conclude my comment even remotely suggested that foreign manufacture = bad...really good. ;)
Your internet X-ray vision must be better than mine as I could not have stated that as fact given the pics. :-)
I've started to look for more than just a smear at the surface, as the contact can be lower.
And some of the best mfg's delivering to the military do not have big surface smears, nor are they necessarily a good thing to have. In fact, the TM on restaking calls out against too much deformation of the key.
I'm not trying to say the staking in this case is sufficient, just that it would be very hard to tell from the pics.
If I had more time and money I'd do an "untorquing" test to get a baseline on different staking techniques.
Couple of things are becoming clear to me: The staking effect can be obtained at the factory in some cases without obvious surface smears. (Ex: LMT's new staking approach, etc) And folks are starting to assume if it's not a MOAKS type stake that it's improper.
It appears newer bcgs from known & respected mfgs are starting to come with machine made staking that is narrower and less surface deformation, yet actually contact the screw quite well.
No slight to the MOAKS tool, just that the internet lore is carrying a reasonable deformation to extremes at times in what they consider "good staking". When in fact, it might not meet spec in max deformation.
That actually makes sense. I know it is hard to tell by the pictures, but there is some contact with the fasteners, but I wouldn't say its to the point that it would stop them from backing out.
I have contacted ADM, and got a response within an hour asking for pictures of the staking. I attempted to take the best pictures I could from them. Waiting for a response if they think it is good to go or not.
That actually makes sense. I know it is hard to tell by the pictures, but there is some contact with the fasteners, but I wouldn't say its to the point that it would stop them from backing out.
I have contacted ADM, and got a response within an hour asking for pictures of the staking. I attempted to take the best pictures I could from them. Waiting for a response if they think it is good to go or not.
Well, did they ever give you an answer?
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