Crunch time in CA - AR 10 .308/7.56 NATO recommendations / suggestions

[johnnymordoc]

Folks,

Born and raised in CA - and this state has gone crazy when it comes to guns........

I am new to the AR platform and am hoping to add an AR 10 7.62 NATO/.308 prior to December 31st 2016.

I am thinking a barrel length of between 18" - 20" DI if possible.

Twist of 1/10 or better. I understand this is better for accuracy.

Use - realistically - 600 -800 yards - maybe 1000 if I learn how to shoot it correctly - SHTF - survival.

Will shoot just about any decent ammo.

In stopping by the local shops - the cupboards are bare.... there is still some 5.56/.223 - but the .308/7.62 is hard to find.

It seems that the DMR/PMR rifles are available but $$$$.

Some shops are saying that the build out time is 12 to 16 weeks for some vendors - which puts me up against the clock.

Some of the names they talk about are Falkor Defense Alpha DMR and NEMO Executive XO and JP Enterprises LPR-07

I have been trying to find some LMT LM308MWS and have also heard good things about the LaRue PredatOBR 7.62.

I have also looked at the Daniel Defense Ambush 308 since they make a fine 5.56.

I figure this is the last AR 10 platform rifle I am going to be able to purchase in CA - and depending on what happens in November.

Looking for some insight - suggestions and recommendations.

I am just looking to make a quality investment for good workmanship and reliability. US made.

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions or recommendations.

JJ

[JoshNC]

LMT MWS. Only others I would consider are KAC ACC (don't think it's an option for you in CA), DD v5, HK MR762, and LaRue predatOBR. The LMT MWS allows the easiest barrel swap/caliber change, is reasonably light with the new LW barrel option, and it has the added benefit of being very reliable and an issue item for the Brits and Kiwis. Being in CA, the benefits of being able to easily swap barrels and caliber (i.e. 20" 6.5 creedmor for truly shooting distance) is a very nice option.

Don't let someone build you anything in 308.

Don't overthink this; just buy the MWS.

[Slippers]

Another vote for the MWS. Josh and I are biased; we shoot ours together. :)

The lightweight barrel option is still a medium contour, but drops weight off the rear with an aluminum sleeve instead of being solid steel. Accuracy has been excellent.

It's also nice that it comes well appointed, including their two stage trigger.

[johnnymordoc]

Thanks for the info - am I really going to be sacrificing or giving up much between an 18" or 20" barrel? The LM308MWS™K does come in a 20" stainless steel barrel. I have to find one that is CA compliant.

Thanks.

JJ

[Slippers]

Call them and you should be able to order the exact configuration you desire.

The chrome lined barrels seem to give just as good results as stainless. If you go 18" or 20" it will definitely be heavy. There's no lightweight option in those lengths.

[duece71]

MWS all the way. I have been more than satisfied with mine. I have the original 16" CL barrel and I bought a brand new 18" SS 5R barrel that came with the new LMT preset torque wrench. Barrel change was so quick and easy. With the addition of multi caliber barrels, the choice should be an easy one in .308. Get the MWS and never look back. Pretty sure they make a CA compliant version.

[johnnymordoc]

Question to all - is it best to get the MWS chambered in 7.62 NATO or the .308?

I suspect it is better the get the 7.62 so that I shoot both types of ammo like the 5.56 platform.

I am just not sure if that term is used interchangeably.

What am i sacrificing between the 18" vs. 20" barrels?

Thanks.

[Skyyr]

Re: the LMT MWS -

1) The MWS is the best bang for the buck, and honestly the 2nd most-proven rifle out the current .308 offerings (the most-proven design being the SR-25). From a shootability/egonomics/weight/design/collector's stance, the best choice would arguably be an SR-25, but that may not be an option for you living in CA. The SR-25 is also ~$2,000+ more than the MWS, so that may affect your decision as well. The MWS is sometimes referred to as a "poor man's SR-25," and for good reason.

2) The .308 chrome lined barrels in the MWS are actually surprisingly accurate. They are widely reported as sub-moa (.8-.9 seems to be common) with match ammo (key words: match ammo, like FGMM), though they can shoot as "bad" as 1.5 MOA. Using mil-surp or commercial bulk ammo will net you 2-3 MOA, like any other barrel. Stainless barrels are supposed to be sub-MOA across the board (with .6-.8 being somewhat common).

3) If you get an MWS, don't bother paying the premium for the various F, K, etc. models. All of LMT's rifles have a base cost that includes the chrome-lined barrel. Upgrading to any other option will add the cost of the new barrel to your rifle, but they don't include the chrome-line barrel. Effectively, getting anything other than the "E" model (the base chrome-lined version) ends up costing you for two barrels, but you'll only get one. Hope that makes sense.

The best thing to do is buy the MWS-E model, and then pay separately for the barrel of your choosing direct from LMT. You can then sell your original "E" barrel on the Equipment Exchange and get back $300-400, ending up with ~$400-600 less cost than if you had purchased another model.

Also, the MWS-E model is (by far) the most popular model, so you'll find that one at the biggest discount (compared to special ordering a "K" or other model). Prior to the ramp in sales, you could find MWS-E's for $2400 all day long on Gunbroker. My co-worker bought one for $2300 and did what I recommended above - purchased a separate barrel for $600, then sold off the original barrel for $350, making his out the door cost $2550 for a 6.5CM setup. As an example, An MWS-K is going to be ~$3600 from LMT. An MWS-E is going to range from $2700-$3000 (with current prices), and an additional barrel is going to cost you ~$600, making your total cost $3300-$3600. However, you'll get back the $300-400 from the sale of your 16" chrome lined barrel, making your cost $2900-$3200.

4) The MWS only comes as a large-frame AR, whereas 5.56 is a normal/small-frame design. LMT's 5.56 chassis is the MRP. They're not interchangeable. Between the MRP and the MWS, get the MWS. Both are fine, amazing rifles, but both are proprietary. Given the market availability in AR-15 parts, it would make more sense (in my mind) to take advantage of the MWS, as .308 AR's are already proprietary as a whole, so you're limiting yourself less than you would by getting an MRP, which is based on the more traditional AR-15 design. Both are fine rifles and you won't make a bad decision getting either.

[tom12.7]

If the LMT MWS is a possible option, it can be a well suited choice. I wouldn't over look that and the KAC and HK offerings. The others are far more distant. Some things may change in the future as we have some newer offerings that may change some ideas, but time will tell.

[308TRUMPFTW]

Don't think we are allowed to have KAC 308s here in CA although the HK and SCAR are both options as well as the Larue and GAP/JP rifles.

I bought a PWS for myself but would gladly take an LMT as well, it's a great rifle. Unfortunately with the "crunch" and the fact that CA stuff seems to cost more I don't know that you will find even a basic LMT for less than 2500 new or used.

[johnnymordoc]

Thanks to everyone for all the information.

The other question is what do I sacrifice in purchasing a 16" - 18" or 20" rifle yardage wise.

I am new to this platform and have to figure what I will be able to at shoot target wise. I do not think there are any places to shoot over 100 yards in Northern CA.

What distances will it get with the different barrel lengths yardage wise?

I see that the LMT LM308MWSG is a CA compliant rifle with a 16" barrel with an optional 20" upgrade for the same price?

Then I see the Daniel Defense DDv5 Ambush 18" - more of a hunting rifle or even the DDv5 w/ 16" in the AR 10 platform.

If I would have purchased prior to the laws changing I may have saved myself $1000.00 - crazy times.

You have to wonder if I wait it out and see if pricing drops or what the vendors might change to make their rifles CA compliant - I wonder how much $$$$ the state has been pulling in with all the DOJ background checks and transfers in the last couple months. Sales Tax?

You used to be able to see the shops sell under MSRP - it is crazy!

You go into a gun shop in CA and they are packed - it is a boom for them....... the consumer not so much.......

Deep breath......

:cool:

[308TRUMPFTW]

Northern California has Sacramento Valley which is a 1000 yard range. I personally would get a 16 or 18. You don't give up a whole lot over a 20 and none of them are really 1000 yard target rifles anyways. Plus the shorter barrels handle a bit better. CA compliance means bullet button, some rifles with ambi mag releases take a bit more effort to install one but it's not horrible or anything.

[lt1ssteve]

I am in the same boat. Just ordered a Larue PredatOBR in 7.62 in 16". They quoted me 16weeks and said they are going to do their best to get guns out to guys in CA so I have my fingers crossed. Larue also stated they will be offering barrels in different calibers so it will(might) help close the gap on versatility aspect of it between it and the lmt. I just feel the Tobr is a better "do it all rifle" than the lmt is.

My original grail gun lineup included a scar for battle rifle purposes, and a gap10 for longer range work. Funds and time dictate otherwise so its all a compromise at this point.

[tom12.7]

While I am the 7.62 AR fan as much as possible, I do not see some of the offerings running as well as the FN offering. The basic point being that the gun needs to be able to run. Some guns run well, others may suffer in function compared to those. Some other 7.62 AR offerings can run well compared to others. A consumer may look into options that run better for a preferred product for use.

[johnnymordoc]

It is the wild wild west out here........

I have heard about Sacramento - most of the ranges in Northern CA are 100 yards or less except Sacramento.

Last night LMT was offering the LMT LM308MWSG (CA compliant) rifle with a 16" barrel with an optional 20" upgrade for the same price of around $3200.00

Just checked back and they are now only offering the same LM308MWSG (CA compliant) for $3356.00 with a 16" Chrome Lined Barrel.

Overnight things went up $150.

It also looks like they are offering the "E" version with the optional 16" or 20". Crazy times.

Like the stock market.... the price of oil...

Looks like the LaRue PredatOBR with various barrel configs are about $3370.00

I am trying not to feed into the frenzy...... but if wait too long I may price myself out of the market.

[JoshNC]

If you don't currently own a 308 and want one, it will be hard to avoid getting into the feeding frenzy. Just buy what you want and don't wait any longer.

[Firefly]

LMT MWS w/ 18" and don't look back.

This may be your only 308 AR and you wanna get it right and have breathing room

[Skyyr]

I am trying not to feed into the frenzy...... but if wait too long I may price myself out of the market.

If there's one thing I learned over going through two major firearm/election/etc. panics, it's that the time to do your research and planning is before any of this happens. Once it starts, you better buy what you want ASAP. The time for deals and good pricing is gone. Get what you want. In 5 years, will you really care that you went with a different rifle just to save $500? For me, I know that I likely won't care about $500 (or even $1000) in a few years, but I would care that I didn't get the rifle I wanted, especially if they were about to be permanently banned.

Also, remember that LMT MWS models are all the same, aside from barrel lengths and bullet button installs. Buy whatever one you can. You can ALWAYS buy the barrel of your choice later and swap it out in under two minutes. If you find good pricing on a non-bullet button rifle, call the dealer and ask if they'll install it for you - offer to pay them for their trouble. Don't waste your time waiting for a 20" model or 18" or whatever, if you can get a 16" cheap now. Buy the cheapest one you can, then get the barrel you want later. That is, unless you can find the exact model you want at a good price now.

Lastly, that 16-20 weeks that was quoted to you were lead times for right now. Wait any longer and those will most definitely go up, along with cost.

Good luck!

[soulezoo]

You got a lot of sound advice here...

And not trying to be a dick but it is "7.62 NATO" not 7.56. Probably just a typo, but it is repeated.



Folks,

Born and raised in CA - and this state has gone crazy when it comes to guns........

I am new to the AR platform and am hoping to add an AR 10 7.56 NATO/.308 prior to December 31st 2016.

I am thinking a barrel length of between 18" - 20" DI if possible.

Twist of 1/10 or better. I understand this is better for accuracy.

Use - realistically - 600 -800 yards - maybe 1000 if I learn how to shoot it correctly - SHTF - survival.

Will shoot just about any decent ammo.

In stopping by the local shops - the cupboards are bare.... there is still some 5.56/.223 - but the .308/7.62 is hard to find.

It seems that the DMR/PMR rifles are available but $$$$.

Some shops are saying that the build out time is 12 to 16 weeks for some vendors - which puts me up against the clock.

Some of the names they talk about are Falkor Defense Alpha DMR and NEMO Executive XO and JP Enterprises LPR-07

I have been trying to find some LMT LM308MWS and have also heard good things about the LaRue PredatOBR 7.62.

I have also looked at the Daniel Defense Ambush 308 since they make a fine 5.56.

I figure this is the last AR 10 platform rifle I am going to be able to purchase in CA - and depending on what happens in November.

Looking for some insight - suggestions and recommendations.

I am just looking to make a quality investment for good workmanship and reliability. US made.

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions or recommendations.

JJ

[308TRUMPFTW]

There was a guy on calguns with an 18" stainless LMT for 3000 in sacramento, he has the 16" barrel too. The rifle itself has been for sale forever so maybe you can snag it for 2500 or something.

[johnnymordoc]

Thanks for the correction - 7.62 NATO

:cool:

[johnnymordoc]

Any LMT folks out there that can provide any insight on the differences between LM8MWS® .308 Slick Upper Receiver and the standard MWS .308 Upper Receiver and the LM308MWS™ Defender Lower?
I am trying to figure out what it all means on their site - it would be nice if you could compare side by side.

I am trying to find one locally so that I can see what it feels like.

Thanks.

[Skyyr]

Any LMT folks out there that can provide any insight on the differences between LM8MWS® .308 Slick Upper Receiver and the standard MWS .308 Upper Receiver and the LM308MWS™ Defender Lower?
I am trying to figure out what it all means on their site - it would be nice if you could compare side by side.

I am trying to find one locally so that I can see what it feels like.

Thanks.



LM8MWS = no quad rails.
LM308MWS = quad rails.

All LM8MWS uppers are identical, minus the barrel (and color, if that applies). All LM308MWS uppers are identical, minus the barrel (and color). All lowers are identical, regardless of whether the model is the LM8MWS or LM308MWS - the lone exceptions being the CA models (which come with bullet buttons and/or lower capacity magazines).

[Benito]

Don't worry about it OP. Just join a Mexican cartel and you'll be hooked up with whatever your heart desires courtesy of a rich uncle via the DOJ.

[johnnymordoc]

So - leaning more towards the LMT 308MWS - 20" -

I just noticed that the MWS and other AR 10 7.62/.308 do not have a "forward assist"?

Is this something that is specific to this caliber or on larger caliber AR's?

Should there be any concern about this?

Thanks in advance.
:cool:

[JC5188]

You don't need a forward assist on an AR10 type.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Benito]

You don't need a forward assist on an AR10 type.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Probably dont need one on an AR-15 either, but it doesn't hurt either.

[darkwater1967]

Hey all, first time poster, also from CA and in the same boat. However, after doing some research, I decided to just buy a stripped lower for now and then build a featureless rifle later with a Monsterman grip, or something along those lines.

From what I can see, you only need to purchase by December 31st if you want to then register your AR-10/15 platform firearm(s) as an "assault weapon" so that you can have all the "evil" features they don't want us to have. If you have a rifle with a bullet-button by December 31st, consensus seems to be that once you have it registered, you can then remove the bullet-button and have a fully functioning AR-10/15. The downside to having a "registered assault weapon" (RAW) in CA is that you become severely limited in what you can do with it. You can only take it to the range and back home, to your business, to certain other public lands where shooting them are allowed by that agency, to a gunsmith that has the appropriate RAW permit, or out-of-state. You cannot pawn, transfer or sell the RAW to anyone else in the state (except to an eligible LEO or a permitted dealer), and your family in CA cannot buy, receive or otherwise inherit them from you.

There appears to be some work-arounds in progress, such as the Bullet-Button 2, which satisfies the new condition that a "fixed magazine" is one that cannot be removed without disassembling the action. However, I'd rather just go with a non-pistol grip myself and not have to disassemble anything to dump a mag, or be the test case for the legality of any work-arounds. I'm not interested in registering, either, so I've got time to buy parts and finish it at my leisure.

Thanks, and keep up the good fight!

[JoshNC]

I wonder if anyone in CA is buying the Troy sporting rifle.

http://troydefense.com/pumpactionrifle/

[darkwater1967]

I wonder if anyone in CA is buying the Troy sporting rifle.

http://troydefense.com/pumpactionrifle/

Interesting...looks like the lower is customized for that rifle, so it may not be compatible with other AR uppers. That would be great if you could have the best of both actions with one rifle, though.

[lt1ssteve]

Probably dont need one on an AR-15 either, but it doesn't hurt either.

Actually it could. A lot of in field issues have been caused by the forward assist.

[lt1ssteve]

So after ordering a Larue tOBR, I decided not to leave it to fate and skipped the ordering process. Fracked someone down out of state that had what I wanted, had him strip the gun down, send me the upper, trigger group, stock, grip and all other accessories. Shipped the lower with just slide catch and buffer tube to my ffl with a receipt for $120. So basically I purchased a stripped lower for $120 which I pay tax on, and a undisclosed amount for everything else.

I got a 14.5" as I intend to have this rifle take the place of my 30-30 brush gun and I'll shoot it with opens or a red dot. Larue will be making .260rem barrels which will be my go to for longer range stuff and I can have a scope on a good qd mount so I can swap back and forth depending on what I am doing with it.