View Full Version : DEALER NOTIFICATION TO ATF OF TWO OR MORE HANDGUN PURCHASES
Some may not know that ATF requires dealers to notify their them(Criminal Investigation Division?)when a person buys two or more handguns within a period of 5 working days. Dealers, please correct me if details here are incorrect. I do have some questions. One is have any other weapon types been added to the list, for example, assault rifles? Another question to dealers is this one: do you tell friends and good customers known to you that you will send in their names when buying two or more handguns within the stated time frame? Out of the scores of gun shops that I've dealt with, only one owner will give you this information. I consider this ATF list a big shit list, and if you send my name in without telling me that I can space out the purchases, then you just put me on the big shit list.
BoringGuy45
07-23-16, 10:39
The only thing required on the multiple handgun purchase form are handguns. Any other category of weapon you may have purchased within that period is not reported.
Hell, in NJ we have to wait 30 days anyway. 6 days would be a blessing.
Digital_Damage
07-23-16, 12:21
someone's caps lock is broken.
Sorry. Title was posted, and then it was too late to fix it. Please overlook the error. If I can figure out how to do so, I may blame it on somebody else. :o
https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/fact-sheet/fact-sheet-multiple-firearms-sales-or-other-disposition-reporting
This isn't in any way "new," nor is it in any way an issue. I don't get why people worry about it...
If you've bought a firearm from a shop, there's a record of it. You're already on "a list."
A national gun registry would make the grabbers overall goal of confiscation easier, but by no means do they need it. They could sent the police door to freaking door, to visit everyone who's ever completed a 4473, until they've got a majority of the nations firearms rounded up.
Get out, vote, and encourage others to do the same. Donate to groups that lobby on our behalf. It is the only two ways to have a chance at keeping the RTKBA safe.
A national gun registry would make the grabbers overall goal of confiscation easier, but by no means do they need it. They could sent the police door to freaking door, to visit everyone who's ever completed a 4473, until they've got a majority of the nations firearms rounded up.
Only if they have a court order to get the 4473's from the dealer. Otherwise, they don't get any such "list".
MountainRaven
07-23-16, 13:44
Only if they have a court order to get the 4473's from the dealer. Otherwise, they don't get any such "list".
All they need to do is show up and threaten to take a dealer's FFL if they don't help. And virtually every FFL has enough mistakes that they've made (which is one, intentionally or not) which is sufficient to yank the FFL. And once they yank the FFL, they get all the 4473s and the dealer's books, anyway.
In any case, I know guys who have a handful of guns who are bothered by the reporting requirement and will only buy one handgun a week and I know guys who have enough guns to arm a Marine rifle company (plus a heavy machine gun squad) who DGAF who will buy a handgun on one day, come back three or four days later, and again another three or four days later (so all three handguns have to be reported). Although I suppose once one has their fifth or sixth NFA tax stamp, one is no longer bothered by the FBI being notified that they bought more than one handgun in a five-day period.
Sorry. Title was posted, and then it was too late to fix it. Please overlook the error. ... :o
Don't sweat it:). No big deal - blown out of proportion way too much and too often.
Obviously - opinions vary:)
john
Well then, they've got a list that's shit-full of cowboy shooters.
Dangerous crowd there...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't have enough fun money to buy multiple guns a year let alone in a month. But I haven't bought guns from an FFL in a while now anyway.
One is have any other weapon types been added to the list, for example, assault rifles?
Unless something has changed, they have to in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas.
https://www.atf.gov/file/5276/download
Correct. And most know the whole thing is absurd since you can buy stripped lowers and they are not reported. It's another example of the BATF inept bureaucracy.
Unless something has changed, they have to in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas.
https://www.atf.gov/file/5276/download
Sorry. Title was posted, and then it was too late to fix it. Please overlook the error. If I can figure out how to do so, I may blame it on somebody else. :o
Click edit then Advanced. You should be able to see the title then.. just for future reference.
This is nothing new, I think it was part of the Brady Bill.
Is there a reason that lgs type dealers don't share this information with regular customers? So a regular or friend of the shop could space out his purchases to avoid being added to the list, which in my opinion will become a shit list. Who wants his name mailed to the feds if he can avoid this action? Dealers, any comment?
MountainRaven
07-24-16, 01:07
Is there a reason that lgs type dealers don't share this information with regular customers? So a regular or friend of the shop could space out his purchases to avoid being added to the list, which in my opinion will become a shit list. Who wants his name mailed to the feds if he can avoid this action? Dealers, any comment?
Because it's the law, the law is available for anyone to read, and it's your responsibility as the customer to know the law.
Just like how you can't buy a gun if you beat your wife or smoke marijuana - it's not the dealer's responsibility to tell you, it's your responsibility to know.
OK. I understand about the ruling being the law. I don't understand why dealers don't or won't share the information. The reporting function is like a big secret. Do dealers fear losing sales by sharing the information? Why not educate customers? I really do wish that somebody can explain why it's kept quiet. Please not that I'm not saying that ATF should not collect the information. I'm not saying that dealers should not comply. I'm asking why dealers won't tell their customers that if they buy two or more handguns within a five day period, then their names are reported to the feds.
Is there a reason that lgs type dealers don't share this information with regular customers? So a regular or friend of the shop could space out his purchases to avoid being added to the list, which in my opinion will become a shit list. Who wants his name mailed to the feds if he can avoid this action? Dealers, any comment?
Not their responsibility? Assumption of common knowledge? All kinds of reasons.
There isn't any information on a MHR that isn't on a 4473. And the ATF can survery 4473s during any compliance inspection. But here is the main thing to remember. If you bought a Glock, a 1911 and a HK handgun in the same time frame, they really aren't looking at you.
But if you buy 15 Glock 17s, 25 Glock 19s and 10 Glock 35s they might take a look at you. If you buy a dozen Raven's, a dozen Lorcins and a dozen Jennings they will definitely take a look at you. Finding car trunk gun dealers who obviously create all the violence in Chicago, NY and elsewhere was the purpose of this regulation in the first place.
Like everything else, it mostly accomplishes nothing except create paperwork that nobody really looks at. There is not really a master database "list" of who owns what regarding firearms. If there was, they wouldn't have to call me up from time to time with a serial number to inquire about the disposition of the firearm after I received it.
OK. I understand about the ruling being the law. I don't understand why dealers don't or won't share the information. The reporting function is like a big secret. Do dealers fear losing sales by sharing the information? Why not educate customers? I really do wish that somebody can explain why it's kept quiet. Please not that I'm not saying that ATF should not collect the information. I'm not saying that dealers should not comply. I'm asking why dealers won't tell their customers that if they buy two or more handguns within a five day period, then their names are reported to the feds.
Because it isn't quite as you imagine, and I think most FFLs assume it's common knowledge. I mention it simply because I have some deep pocket customers who like to buy 8-20 handguns in the course of 6 months and then pick them up all at once as a matter of convenience since they travel a lot. I remind them that I'll have to do a MHR as a result but since it's the same info and the 4473 and they aren't running guns to NY it never seems to be an issue.
I have been a FFL / SOT since 1999 and in all that time, I have not had any of my customers (90% of which are known to me and repeat buyers) encounter any problems despite the dozens of MHR that have been submitted for them over the years.
Correct. I know some people that have bought several dozens of guns in a 1 year period. The guys they are looking at are the ones the appear suspicious as you mentioned. It's also common knowledge that the BATF personnel will ask the dealer anything they know about the person whom they may suspect. They know that anyone who is a repeat customer who is buying a lot of stuff is going to develop some kind of rapport.
Not their responsibility? Assumption of common knowledge? All kinds of reasons.
There isn't any information on a MHR that isn't on a 4473. And the ATF can survey 4473s during any compliance inspection. But here is the main thing to remember. If you bought a Glock, a 1911 and a HK handgun in the same time frame, they really aren't looking at you.
But if you buy 15 Glock 17s, 25 Glock 19s and 10 Glock 35s they might take a look at you. If you buy a dozen Raven's, a dozen Lorcins and a dozen Jennings they will definitely take a look at you. Finding car trunk gun dealers who obviously create all the violence in Chicago, NY and elsewhere was the purpose of this regulation in the first place.
Like everything else, it mostly accomplishes nothing except create paperwork that nobody really looks at. There is not really a master database "list" of who owns what regarding firearms. If there was, they wouldn't have to call me up from time to time with a serial number to inquire about the disposition of the firearm after I received it.
Because it isn't quite as you imagine, and I think most FFLs assume it's common knowledge. I mention it simply because I have some deep pocket customers who like to buy 8-20 handguns in the course of 6 months and then pick them up all at once as a matter of convenience since they travel a lot. I remind them that I'll have to do a MHR as a result but since it's the same info and the 4473 and they aren't running guns to NY it never seems to be an issue.
I have been a FFL / SOT since 1999 and in all that time, I have not had any of my customers (90% of which are known to me and repeat buyers) encounter any problems despite the dozens of MHR that have been submitted for them over the years.
Correct. I know some people that have bought several dozens of guns in a 1 year period. The guys they are looking at are the ones the appear suspicious as you mentioned. It's also common knowledge that the BATF personnel will ask the dealer anything they know about the person whom they may suspect. They know that anyone who is a repeat customer who is buying a lot of stuff is going to develop some kind of rapport.
Yep, I've been asked about a few guys who regularly engage in large orders.
My answers very from "A lucky SOB with a shit ton of money" to "a very appreciated customer."
I've never had anyone that the ATF requested "further information" about once asked.
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