View Full Version : Steel Ammuntion? In my AR?
Something from the ‘way-back’ machine . . .
Between October 1969 and February 1970, the Army conducted a test of 5.56mm ammunition assembled with steel cases at Fort Benning. The object of the test was to determine if steel cases were acceptable for general service use.
Highlights of the test were as follows:
- Over 21,000 steel cased rounds were fired and a similar number of brass cased rounds were fired. The ammunition was a mix of Ball and Tracer for both test (steel cased) and control (brass cased).
- After firing, 47 split necks observed in the test ammunition. However, none of the split necks caused any weapon malfunctions.
- There were 53 weapons malfunctions in the weapons firing steel case ammunition.
- There were 71 weapons malfunctions in the weapons firing brass cases ammunition.
- All of the malfunctions save three (3) were weapon or magazine related, not attributable to the ammunition.
- Two of the three ammunition related malfunctions were with the control ammunition (brass cased).
- Only one steel cased round caused a weapons malfunction.
- Blast, flash, noise, and felt recoil were the same between the test and control weapons.
- Part of the test was a 60 day open storage exposure test where ammunition stored either in bandoleers, or loaded in magazines or stored in ammo cans was exposed to the prevalent weather. Surface rust and blistering of the lacquer was observed on the test ammunition, discolorization on the control ammunition. After open storage the ammunition was fired with no malfunctions. (30 of the 60 days saw some form of precipitation.)
- After a simulated tactical exercise where ammunition was immersed in water for 15 minutes, dragged through the dirt and covered in mud for 45 minutes, the ammunition was left exposed for 36 hours. After the 36 hours it was fired, there was one malfunction with the test ammunition, 3 malfunctions with the control ammunition.
- The conclusion was that there is no significant difference between ammunition loaded with steel cases than with ammunition loaded with brass cases.
-It was concluded that steel cased ammunition is suitable for world wide and unrestricted use.
For those wishing to read the full report, it can be found on DTIC, search for:
AD869282 - PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT TEST OF CARTRIDGE, 5.56-MM, ASSEMBLED WITH STEEL CARTRIDGE CASES-FINAL REPORT
Short story - there is nothing inherent in steel cases that makes them problematic. More than likely there are QA issues with the ammunition manufacturer, non-spec loading, non-spec pressures, case dimensions that don't conform to spec, that are causing your problems, if you are having any.
Dammit! Ammunition... in the title.
Very interesting, but I'm not suprised. The only inherent issue I could see is running high volume of steel, then brass.
Very interesting, but I'm not suprised. The only inherent issue I could see is running high volume of steel, the brass.
Uh, what?
Uh, what?
Edited. 1 letter really clears things up, haha.
Interesting study. I have been firing steel case ammunition through my practice carbines for years and have not had any issues. Some of the WWII vintage M1 Carbine ammunition I've fired is steel case. The fact that Hornady makes Steel Match ammunition supports the use of steel cases.
It would appear the U.S. Army was onto something 45+ years ago.
Edited. 1 letter really clears things up, haha.
Now I understand, and agree. ;)
Steel cases are not, themselves a problem. The issue with the Russian steel case is the bi metal jackets on the bullets tends to pre maturely wear bores.
I wouldn't hesitate to use Hornaday steel match etc with conventional copper jacketed bullets.
Steel cases are not, themselves a problem. The issue with the Russian steel case is the bi metal jackets on the bullets tends to pre maturely wear bores.
I wouldn't hesitate to use Hornaday steel match etc with conventional copper jacketed bullets.
Funny you should mention that. (That is the subject of my next article.)
But, no. Not quite, read more here. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?186725-Steel-Bullets-or-something-else)
I use hell of lots of ruskie ammo. It is cheaper. I get to shoot more. For the 50-100 yard range it works just fine. Even for hunting. I don't even know how many cases I've gone through over the years. Yet to have a rifle die from it. But again I don't mag dump into the ground either.
Do what ever makes you feel good.
Steel cases are not, themselves a problem. The issue with the Russian steel case is the bi metal jackets on the bullets tends to pre maturely wear bores.
I wouldn't hesitate to use Hornaday steel match etc with conventional copper jacketed bullets.
I agree, the bi-metal bullets induce more wear and tear on a barrel than copper jacketed projectiles. Over the life of the barrels on my practice carbines, I save roughly $600 to $700 per carbine shooting Russian steel case ammunition. Neither practice carbine sees use beyond 200 meters, so the loss in accuracy is not an issue for myself.
A lot of people do not shoot more than 1,000 to 2,000 rounds per year, so I would not recommend shooting bi-metal bullets for them. For someone who replaces a barrel every 18 months or so, it may save a few dollars.
I have run thousands of rounds of Hornady Steel TAP through my guns until the price changed and it became hard to find. I had zero issues with it.
I have run thousands of rounds of Hornady Steel TAP through my guns until the price changed and it became hard to find. I had zero issues with it.
Yea my experience was that ammo was better than average. I think we both bought a fat lot of that Hornady at a gun show 5 years ago.
Treated me good.
PB
When I bought my 6920 I bought 500 rounds of Brown Bear. The only malfunctions I’ve had with my rifle have been with the Brown Bear where the bolt would not go into battery but I could not eject the round without mortaring. I still have most of that ammo.
I should clarify that by ruski I meant wolf. I've had issues with tula.
Toyoland66
07-27-16, 20:14
Steel cases are not, themselves a problem. The issue with the Russian steel case is the bi metal jackets on the bullets tends to pre maturely wear bores.
I wouldn't hesitate to use Hornaday steel match etc with conventional copper jacketed bullets.
If you wear out your bore, even in as little as 3k rounds, you will have saved enough money to rebarrel the rifle.
Stay away from the polymer coated steel ammo, they can get stuck in your chamber.
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Funny you should mention that. (That is the subject of my next article.)
But, no. Not quite, read more here. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?186725-Steel-Bullets-or-something-else)
I am looking forward to reading the article on bi-metal ammunition. I conducted inventory today. I've fired over 5,000 rounds of Wolf and Tula bi-metal .223 ammunition this year.
I am looking forward to reading the article on bi-metal ammunition. I conducted inventory today. I've fired over 5,000 rounds of Wolf and Tula bi-metal .223 ammunition this year.
The link is the 'next' article.
it was an edit that didn't get annotated.
Stay away from the polymer coated steel ammo, they can get stuck in your chamber.
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You are correct, it is possible a steel case can get stuck. It happened to me once ten or twelve years ago. I fired another 300 rounds of lacquer coated Wolf steel case this morning, which makes 600 rounds this week. This particular carbine has fired 960 rounds of steel case Wolf since it was last cleaned with zero malfunctions.
I have an LMT with 18.5k of steel case through it. Barrel is nowhere near shot out. I've had 4 rounds fail to extract that were attributed to a worn out extractor spring. A good rifle will eat it just fine.
I have an LMT with 18.5k of steel case through it. Barrel is nowhere near shot out. I've had 4 rounds fail to extract that were attributed to a worn out extractor spring. A good rifle will eat it just fine.
Russian or US ammo?
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sasquatchoslav
07-28-16, 17:06
You are correct, it is possible a steel case can get stuck. It happened to me once ten or twelve years ago. I fired another 300 rounds of lacquer coated Wolf steel case this morning, which makes 600 rounds this week. This particular carbine has fired 960 rounds of steel case Wolf since it was last cleaned with zero malfunctions.
Wow that beat my test to smitherines! I did maybe 10 mags so call it 300 one afternoon of Wolf Polyformance. Didn't clean it and came back the next weekend and pounded another 4-5 mags. At that point my piston worshp/di-phobic buddy decided I wasn't going to die and the world wouldn't stop spinning by mixing a dirty di with steel cased. That was several years ago and he now shoots Wolf exclusively.
Russian or US ammo?
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Good question. As I said, I have no issues with steel cases themselves, and teh Hornaday steel case seems good to go.
As for the Russian stuff, it may well be a combination of he bi metal jackets and the propellant but it does wear barrels faster. Then again so does Frangible.
I let my sister-in-law's father shoot my brand new (first time out) BCM 14.5" midlength. Unbeknownst to me he used his own crappy lacquered steel case ammo and I got a live round stuck in the chamber. I took it to a gunsmith and he got it out by soaking with Kroil, which dissolved the lacquer. Prior to that, he tried using a rod to knock it out and couldn't. That lacquer sealed it up nice and tight. The smith checked headspace and extractor and both were fine. It was the ammo.
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Neither laquer, nor the polymer used on the cases melt enough to get stuck based on testing that has been done in the past.
It's carbon fouling getting around the cases. The filth from Russian ammo is probably why you don't hear about it from the hornady stuff.
I was shooting Federal XM193. The other guy only put a mag of lacquer ammo through my gun, and he only got half way through it before the jam. I'm not disputing you, I just think it was probably something else in this case. Can buffer weight affect this behavior? At the time, I had a VLTOR H0 (light) buffer in the gun because that is what it came with from G&R. Unfortunately at the time I was not looking forward to ejection pattern.
If someone else parks a semi-trailer filled with free M193 next to the reloading table, I will shoot brass case ammunition exclusively. If I am shooting on my own dime, I try to find ways to cut costs.
The past few months I have been averaging 2,400 rounds of .223 per month. Most of the shooting is at silhouettes inside 50 meters, so pin point accuracy is not necessary. At 6 cents per round less, the savings involved with shooting steel case ammunition adds up.
crusader377
07-28-16, 22:36
Steel cases are not, themselves a problem. The issue with the Russian steel case is the bi metal jackets on the bullets tends to pre maturely wear bores.
I wouldn't hesitate to use Hornaday steel match etc with conventional copper jacketed bullets.
Has anyone done a test on this or is this a myth? I'm curious on how a bi-metal jacket is going to prematurely wear a chrome lined barrel which is a very tough material.
Funny you should mention that. (That is the subject of my next article.)
But, no. Not quite, read more here. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?186725-Steel-Bullets-or-something-else)
Interesting article. I do agree that throat erosion can be accelerated by shooting hot charges. I have experienced reduced muzzle velocities due to throat erosion. I currently own a M1 Garand that had a noticeable change in muzzle velocity over time. Throat erosion went from 1.5 to 4.0 and I experienced a 200 fps reduction in muzzle velocity. I had to increase the charge weight to bring muzzle velocity back up to the sweet spot for accuracy.
Good stuff. Keep it coming.
Well, this thread convinced me to order a few cases of steel case because cost savings. Thanks y'all lol
See a lot shot in matches without issues.
Has anyone done a test on this or is this a myth? I'm curious on how a bi-metal jacket is going to prematurely wear a chrome lined barrel which is a very tough material.
As a matter of fact, yes.
here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?186725-Steel-Bullets-or-something-else)
Russian or US ammo?
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Mostly Wolf with a little bit of Brown Bear and Silver Bear mixed.
EzGoingKev
07-30-16, 14:17
I am thinking the steel cased ammo is going to be harder on the bolt.
I am thinking the steel cased ammo is going to be harder on the bolt.
There will be more bolt thrust with steel cases than brass when loaded to the same pressure. But steel cases are generally loaded to lower pressures to keep the case from sticking in the chamber
556BlackRifle
07-30-16, 16:08
I came across this video that supports the side that steel cased ammo isn't going to damage your firearm. I'd want to see more data to know for sure but I thought this was very interesting none the less.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBAh_8usXBI
I came across this video that supports the side that steel cased ammo isn't going to damage your firearm. I'd want to see more data to know for sure but I thought this was very interesting none the less.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBAh_8usXBI
Didn't watch the whole thing, but there's a balance. Hardness is also 1 test. There are many different tests for steel That must be done to ensure function. Ys, %elongation plastic deformation point, etc.
Good reading.... Russian steel of varied sorts is 90% of my 556 shooting...one carbine is well over 10k with no issues... Gets cleaned every 2500 or so. I'm thankful for it😀
AssGasOrBrass
08-11-16, 14:53
No go in 223 rem or Wylde. Might work in 5.56 chamber
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No go in 223 rem or Wylde. Might work in 5.56 chamber
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Two of my training carbines have .223 Wylde chambers. I've fired tens of thousands of rounds of steel case ammunition through them without issue, one thousand rounds in the past two weeks.
Neither carbine has a chrome lined barrel. Barrels and bolts are replaced at roughly 12,000 round intervals, sometimes 10,000, sometimes 14,000. Both carbines are treated like stolen cars. Except for replacing gas rings every once in a while, not much gets replaced between new barrels.
Just an interesting side note, in one test with the M60 and 7.62 NATO loaded with steel cases, they encountered numerous bounce-backs, which caused serious reliability issues. And, it was only with the M60 machine gun that this was a problem.
Turns out that the steel cases were made with the head-web slightly thinner, steel being slightly stronger than brass, so not as much was needed. This moved the CG of the case slightly forward, so when ejected by the M60, the center of rotation of the empty was closer to the case mouth. That little change in CG changed the dynamics of the ejection and the cases wound up bouncing back into the ejection port.
Just an interesting side note, in one test with the M60 and 7.62 NATO loaded with steel cases, they encountered numerous bounce-backs, which caused serious reliability issues. And, it was only with the M60 machine gun that this was a problem.
Turns out that the steel cases were made with the head-web slightly thinner, steel being slightly stronger than brass, so not as much was needed. This moved the CG of the case slightly forward, so when ejected by the M60, the center of rotation of the empty was closer to the case mouth. That little change in CG changed the dynamics of the ejection and the cases wound up bouncing back into the ejection port.
That's interesting. Someone gave me several hundred rounds of steel case Indian 7.62x51 ammunition that I shot up with one of my M1As. What would the Indian army be shooting steel case ammunition through? FALs? Ishapores?
Pushbutton2
08-11-16, 21:37
Steel cases are not, themselves a problem. The issue with the Russian steel case is the bi metal jackets on the bullets tends to pre maturely wear bores.
I wouldn't hesitate to use Hornaday steel match etc with conventional copper jacketed bullets.
My buddy had some cheap Tula ammo on his shelf I was going to buy.
He recommended for me not to buy it for these reasons.
Good question. As I said, I have no issues with steel cases themselves, and teh Hornaday steel case seems good to go.
As for the Russian stuff, it may well be a combination of he bi metal jackets and the propellant but it does wear barrels faster. Then again so does Frangible.
In your personal experience, how many rounds of bi-metal ammunition are fired through your AR barrel before you see a significant reduction in accuracy?
None of my rifles (except AKs) will ever see a round of that nasty Russian chit.
i've noticed some wear on the upper and feed ramps with steel cased ammo. not on all setups but it appears the neck on a steel case is harder on the feed ramps. is it a huge difference, no. but it's enough to keep me from running any steel through a higher end upper.
That's interesting. Someone gave me several hundred rounds of steel case Indian 7.62x51 ammunition that I shot up with one of my M1As. What would the Indian army be shooting steel case ammunition through? FALs? Ishapores?
Yes, anything that shot 7.62mm . . . .
One of my ARs is chambered in 5.45. I'm pretty much stuck with steel case. Haven't shot enough yet to gauge anything.
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Steel cases are not, themselves a problem. The issue with the Russian steel case is the bi metal jackets on the bullets tends to pre maturely wear bores.
I wouldn't hesitate to use Hornaday steel match etc with conventional copper jacketed bullets.
Steel cases do not fully expand and seal in the chamber allowing blow by and carbon deposits in the chamber. When the shooter switches to brass after excessive steel case shooting, the chamber is now effectively tighter and the brass will stick.
I have experienced this exactly once after about 4 to 6000 of whatever I could find (mostly tula) in an over gassed S&W w/ carbine buffer. Modern mid lengths with proper buffers may allow enough time for proper extraction.
In my case, a bore rod knocked the case out and bore brush solved the problem.
I now dedicate certain rifles to brass only to avoid this problem and better barrel life as you mentioned already. Interestingly I've never heard of or experienced this problem with pistols.
One of my cheap budget build AR's, a PSA Premium midlength, with just a standard CAR buffer/spring, on an Anderson lower has had exactly 2 malfunctions in the 1000+ rds. I have put through it.
One was a FTF with a federal factory XM193 round, in the middle of an extended shooting session, about 1/2 way through a well used USGI magazine.
One was also a FTF with a Tula 223 factory round, also in the middle of an extended shooting session, about 1/2 way through a new G2 pmag.
I conclude...................nothing, as after both stoppages were cleared, the rifle ran and ran and ran, both days with the various ammo and mags.
I like steel for plinking, and when conditions make brass pickup for reloading a chore. My rifles don't get a steady diet of it, but I don't refrain from using it.
My biggest problem with it (and factory brass .223 or 5.56 plinking fodder too) is that it's often inconsistent on paper. All of my handloads will shoot groups inside of the best groups with factory ammo out of ANY of my rifles, and that's just handloaded plinking stuff (typically Hornady 55gr. FMJ's, mixed brass, what ever SR primers I have on hand, and IMR4895 or Hodgdon BL-C(2) powder) not match grade ammo. For plinking, banging steel, and real world shooting, it's fine.
I shot with a friend yesterday and we shot steel at 300 yards with Wolf 62g ammunition. I shot on paper at 100 yards, then he spotted for me while I zeroed iron sights on an 18" W x 30" H steel target at 300 yards. After I zeroed, he fired my carbine with Wolf 62g and hit the steel at 300 yards without missing, 15 out of 15 rounds. The wind got him a few times, which spread the shots out a bit. A swag is that the group was 14" W x 20" H.
The carbine has a 1:9 twist barrel and is chambered in .223 Wylde. The carbine was a bit dirty at the end of the session, but we had zero failures. Wolf steel case ammunition is not target ammunition, but it is good enough for plinking.
No go in 223 rem or Wylde. Might work in 5.56 chamber
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Yeah, um, that's not true.
If the ammo is to spec why not.
The issue with steel case is the coating. Steel expands different than brass.
Clean the chamber thoroughly before switching, if you can
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fedupflyer
09-07-16, 17:05
Went to a 3 day class with a buddy and we were told we would shoot 1200+ rnds.
I shot brass through a BCM and he shoot steel ( I believe it was Wolf) through a Colt.
He had at least 5 malfunctions caused by the steel cased ammo.
Near the end of the class he had another malfunction that was enough to lock up the rifle and took tools to remove.
With the brass I had zero malfunctions other than the failure to full seat a mag.
EzGoingKev
09-07-16, 22:29
Some classes will not let you run steel ammo as they do not want the drama.
One of my ARs is chambered in 5.45. I'm pretty much stuck with steel case. Haven't shot enough yet to gauge anything.
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You won't have extraction issues like seen in 556 due to case taper. Russians use a lot of steel and 5.45 and 762x39 are tapered significantly.
6.8mmSPC_Fan
09-07-16, 23:07
LWRCI, makers of my DI rifle, say "NO!!!" to steel cased ammo. If they say it, that's good enough for me... This rifle has to last me until Jesus comes, so I'll be taking good care of it...
You won't have extraction issues like seen in 556 due to case taper. Russians use a lot of steel and 5.45 and 762x39 are tapered significantly.
Actually, the 5.45mm x 39 is not as tapered as you think. The angle of the side wall for a 5.45mm x 39 case is only 0.03 degrees more tapered than that of 5.56mm NATO.
There are two things that kill the reliability of steel cases, one - the heat treatment of the case, and two - how well the case conforms to the required dimensional specifications, which are not necessarily the exact same dimensions as for a brass cases.
Actually, the 5.45mm x 39 is not as tapered as you think. The angle of the side wall for a 5.45mm x 39 case is only 0.03 degrees more tapered than that of 5.56mm NATO.
There are two things that kill the reliability of steel cases, one - the heat treatment of the case, and two - how well the case conforms to the required dimensional specifications, which are not necessarily the exact same dimensions as for a brass cases.
Interesting. I can visually see the difference, didn't realize it was that low an angle. Do you think the taper has no significant impact?
I agree with temper. A little variation has huge impact on relability.
Interesting. I can visually see the difference, didn't realize it was that low an angle. Do you think the taper has no significant impact?
I agree with temper. A little variation has huge impact on relability.
I think the way the bullet is seated always made me feel there was more taper there, visual/ proportional thing...after checking years ago, not much difference.
Edited to add- not saying that little difference is not making a difference, I have no idea... I just shoot a lot of steel case on both platforms-
What we have seen in our day long courses that as long as we are in the slow fire, zero, single shot and talk part of the class no issues but when we start heating the gun up the lacquer on the casing starts to melt or flake and sticks the case into the chamber. We have to keep cleaning rods at the ready to pop out stuck cases. Great malfunction clearance drills I guess. The polymer sealed ones aren't much better. Students that scrub their chamber every so often during break have fewer issues.
sasquatchoslav
09-09-16, 12:26
Where do you guys get the lacquer coated stuff? For some reason I was thinking it wasn't even being made any longer. I just pound the stink out of Wolf Poly. I actually wouldn't mind finding some of the lacquer for my SKS and AK if it's on the cheapo.
SGAmmo.com offers a few varieties of lacquer coated ammo.
sasquatchoslav
09-09-16, 13:11
SGAmmo.com offers a few varieties of lacquer coated ammo.
Thank you
What we have seen in our day long courses that as long as we are in the slow fire, zero, single shot and talk part of the class no issues but when we start heating the gun up the lacquer on the casing starts to melt or flake and sticks the case into the chamber. We have to keep cleaning rods at the ready to pop out stuck cases. Great malfunction clearance drills I guess. The polymer sealed ones aren't much better. Students that scrub their chamber every so often during break have fewer issues.
Which carbines and rifles exhibited the most failures? I have two carbines with .223 Wylde chambers that rarely malfunction with steel case ammunition.
Interesting. I can visually see the difference, didn't realize it was that low an angle. Do you think the taper has no significant impact?
I agree with temper. A little variation has huge impact on relability.
The key is in this diagram:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/lysanderxiii/Untitled1_zpstmhs4psd.png
Both the chamber and the case expand under the peak pressure, the chamber, however, is perfectly elastic and returns to its original dimensions. The slope of the stress-strain curve has to be such that the end point still gives sufficient clearance for extraction. The slope of the curve, and where the elastic limit is, are highly dependent on the heat treat of the steel.
You will notice in this case due to the large growth in the chamber diameter, .006", steel and aluminum work better than brass. For 5.56 mm, chamber growth is only .0006".
The fact that the stress-strain slope is difference means, for optimum performance, the steel case will not be an exact copy, dimension-wise, of a brass case. A few thousandths off the OD of the case at the shoulder will make a huge difference in reliability.
Thanks, lysander... this is great info. Would the same apply to other lower pressure rounds also, like pistol and rimfire?
Yes, that graph is true of all cartridges, because all cartridge expand under pressure, as do all chambers.
Whether or not you need to adjust the case dimensions to get adequate performance depends on many things...
A couple of points here...
First, lysander's linked thread about steel bullets is extremely on point. Many people point to Lucky Gunner's torture test and insist it shows that the bimetal bullets in the Russian ammo caused the accelerated bore wear found in the tests. There is simply no way to isolate the bullets' contribution to that wear from the erosion caused by high flame temperatures from the powder used. In his other thread, lysander provides lots of data pointing out that erosion is most likely the bigger player in this effect.
Second, the coating on a steel case does NOT cause it to stick. Neither lacquer (yes, there's still plenty of that stuff out there), nor the polymer coating can cause cases to stick. Instead, dirty chambers cause cases to stick - and because steel isn't elastic in the same way as brass, the steel cases don't obturate the chamber as well as brass cases do, which leads to soot and gunk accumulating in the neck area of the chamber. That's a great way to stick a case.
I think it's important to be very specific when referring to steel cased ammunition. Name the brand (and with Wolf, the specific product line), because Tula makes some very "interesting" loads using "interesting" powders, while Barnaul makes boring old, run of the mill "consistent and reliable" ammo. ;) Wolf (a distributor, NOT a manufacturer) has sold products made by a number of different Russian ammo plants, including Tula, which is why the product line is important. Old "black box" Wolf was made by Tula, which is why it got a crappy reputation. Tula makes essentially the same stuff today. Not encouraging at all.
Steel cases "may" cause measurably more wear on parts like extractors. Extractors aren't free, but they don't cost much, so if I wear out an extractor because I shoot a lot, I don't have a problem with changing it out. But the wear you might see on those extractors isn't what most people expect. It's not because "steel is hard and the extractor is steel, so the steel case is going to wear the extractor out really fast." Not at all. Again, since the steel in cartridge cases isn't as springy as cartridge brass, the extractor striking a less elastic case rim undergoes a harder impact than if it hits a brass rim. That leads to more stress at the weakest point on the extractor: the front edge of the inside of the extractor hook.
Finally, let's talk alloys. I have no idea what specific steel alloy is used in cartridge cases, but steel can be almost soft enough to scratch with a fingernail or hard enough to cut other steels like butter. In other words, "steel" is the name for a HUGE range of metals whose only commonality is that they are iron based and include carbon... Brass cartridge cases are usually made with a particular alloy called "cartridge brass," which is 75% copper and 25% zinc. This gives this specific alloy specific properties, such as elasticity, malleability, etc. Why would steel for cartridge cases not also be specific? (I'll also point out that traditional bullet jackets are made of "gilding metal," which is a brass alloy of 95% copper and 5% zinc. Traditional jackets are NOT "copper" or they would turn green and erode pretty quickly...)
EzGoingKev
09-18-16, 21:21
I love the lengths cheap people will go to defend their cheap decisions.
Totally not the professional gunner here, but at every AR class I've attended, the folks who have frequent jams and failures are shooting Russian steel ammo. It left a solid impression with me. I would be interested to hear from people who run these classes who watch a hundred or more shooters per year and see what their observations are regarding ammunition choice.
I love the lengths cheap people will go to defend their cheap decisions.
While I'd never use it for serious shooting, it's more than adequate for blasting away at the range. The price difference will cover replacement of even the nicest barrels.
I've quit caring what I grab for range days. More shooting is better, period.
I love the lengths cheap people will go to defend their cheap decisions.
At a cost savings of over $1,000 per year, I shoot quite a bit of steel case .223 ammunition. I replace the barrel on a given carbine once every 18 months or so, so the savings adds up.
I've seen improperly maintained carbines puke on 80g match.
I believe the wolf polyformance WPA is from the Barnaul plant.
A couple of points here... (edited for brevity)
[clip]
Instead, dirty chambers cause cases to stick - and because steel isn't elastic in the same way as brass, the steel cases don't obturate the chamber as well as brass cases do, which leads to soot and gunk accumulating in the neck area of the chamber.
[clip]
Finally, let's talk alloys. I have no idea what specific steel alloy is used in cartridge cases, but steel can be almost soft enough to scratch with a fingernail or hard enough to cut other steels like butter. In other words, "steel" is the name for a HUGE range of metals whose only commonality is that they are iron based and include carbon... Brass cartridge cases are usually made with a particular alloy called "cartridge brass," which is 75% copper and 25% zinc. This gives this specific alloy specific properties, such as elasticity, malleability, etc. Why would steel for cartridge cases not also be specific? (I'll also point out that traditional bullet jackets are made of "gilding metal," which is a brass alloy of 95% copper and 5% zinc. Traditional jackets are NOT "copper" or they would turn green and erode pretty quickly...)
Actually, steel cases obturate just fine.
At 50,000 psi the sides of a steel case are stuck against the chamber walls as well as any brass case. The difference is at what pressure the case fully expands to achieve the seal.
The bullet uncorks from the case neck when the pressure inside the case is about 900 psi, brass or steel. As soon as it uncorks, gas will start to flow around the case into the chamber bringing all the dirty combustion products with it. How fast the case neck inflates to seal this flow off depends on a number of things, but mainly, 1) how fast is the pressure rise inside the case, and 2) how resistant is the case neck is to distortion.
Stuck cases are probably far more likely caused by improper heat treatment of the steel. Otherwise all steel ammunition would start to show FTE after a certain number of rounds, which is not the case, they tend to occur at random.
As to lacquer causing problems, all US produced steel cased ammunition, mainly 25mm, uses lacquer as a corrosion preventative. However, and this is a big however, 25mm product testing has shown that the wrong choice of lacquer will cause problems. Is it out side the realm of possibility that some lots of Russian ammo where made with a poor choice of lacquer? No, I don't think so. But again, it's the generalization that is wrong - lacquer = bad, no, more correctly it's poor quality control = bad . . .
As to the alloy used, almost everybody that has ever made cases from steel has used a mild steel alloy, 1025 or 1035, maybe 1040 or the local equivalent. One, it's cheap, and that was the whole point of steel cases in the first place. And two, it has a strength similar to cartridge brass. Many people think that steel cases are much stronger than brass, they are a tad stronger at the rim, but not really enough to really make much difference.
And, here is where we are going to refer back to the obturation thing. The neck of a brass case is fully annealed (or it should be) so the the yield strength is 45,000 to 60,000 psi. Any guesses to the yield strength of 1035 tempered to about HRb 60 to 70 (what Frankford found to work best)? Yeah, it's around 40,000 to 50,000 psi.
The resistance of the case neck to distortion is about the same for brass and steel cases, so they obturate just as well and, for the same pressure curves, just as fast. The reason Russian cases are dirtier on the outside is the probably due to the propellant they use.
There has been a big change in Russian produced ammunition that has changed the whole barrel wear thing, however. They, at least Tula, have stopped cladding the jacket with gilding metal. It might make a significant difference with .224 bullets. Generally, the cladding was .003" thick, which is about the same as the depth of the lands. The cladding did provide some lubricity similar to regular GM jacketed bullets.
Great info lysander.
My recent experience with Silver Bear comes from a friend I attended a carbine course with who had failures to extract from the chamber of his two Stag mid length's once it warmed up. Had to be beaten out with a cleaning rod. I on the other hand really like Hornady Steel Match and stock up whenever it's available. Best of both worlds, cheap steel cases with Hornady powder and bullet. Really accurate stuff too, I found it to be on par accuracy wise with the regular brass Hornady 55 HP load in my PWS Mk114.
The older batches of Hornady Steel Match used rougher polymer coated cases and I once had a Lancer L5AWM magazine jam when it was dirty inside. Never happened with brass or lacquer.
Actually, steel cases obturate just fine.
At 50,000 psi the sides of a steel case are stuck against the chamber walls as well as any brass case. The difference is at what pressure the case fully expands to achieve the seal.
The bullet uncorks from the case neck when the pressure inside the case is about 900 psi, brass or steel. As soon as it uncorks, gas will start to flow around the case into the chamber bringing all the dirty combustion products with it. How fast the case neck inflates to seal this flow off depends on a number of things, but mainly, 1) how fast is the pressure rise inside the case, and 2) how resistant is the case neck is to distortion.
Stuck cases are probably far more likely caused by improper heat treatment of the steel. Otherwise all steel ammunition would start to show FTE after a certain number of rounds, which is not the case, they tend to occur at random.
As to lacquer causing problems, all US produced steel cased ammunition, mainly 25mm, uses lacquer as a corrosion preventative. However, and this is a big however, 25mm product testing has shown that the wrong choice of lacquer will cause problems. Is it out side the realm of possibility that some lots of Russian ammo where made with a poor choice of lacquer? No, I don't think so. But again, it's the generalization that is wrong - lacquer = bad, no, more correctly it's poor quality control = bad . . .
As to the alloy used, almost everybody that has ever made cases from steel has used a mild steel alloy, 1025 or 1035, maybe 1040 or the local equivalent. One, it's cheap, and that was the whole point of steel cases in the first place. And two, it has a strength similar to cartridge brass. Many people think that steel cases are much stronger than brass, they are a tad stronger at the rim, but not really enough to really make much difference.
And, here is where we are going to refer back to the obturation thing. The neck of a brass case is fully annealed (or it should be) so the the yield strength is 45,000 to 60,000 psi. Any guesses to the yield strength of 1035 tempered to about HRb 60 to 70 (what Frankford found to work best)? Yeah, it's around 40,000 to 50,000 psi.
The resistance of the case neck to distortion is about the same for brass and steel cases, so they obturate just as well and, for the same pressure curves, just as fast. The reason Russian cases are dirtier on the outside is the probably due to the propellant they use.
There has been a big change in Russian produced ammunition that has changed the whole barrel wear thing, however. They, at least Tula, have stopped cladding the jacket with gilding metal. It might make a significant difference with .224 bullets. Generally, the cladding was .003" thick, which is about the same as the depth of the lands. The cladding did provide some lubricity similar to regular GM jacketed bullets.
Interesting thread, didn't expect so much technical detail.
So, anecdotally, the only problems I've ever had with steel cased ammo (and I've used Wolf Polyformance, Silver Bear, and Tula) has been out of rifles with 5.56 chambers. Long story short my Dad's PSA 5.56 (he's not a serious shooter) and my Cold 6920 have both had stuck cases with Tula - same case of ammo. The cases were so stuck we resorted to pound them out with a cleaning rod. That same day, I had a another rifle with a Rainier Arms .223 Wylde barrel that ate the same Tula up. Between the 3 rifles, we probably shot 500 rounds that day, mainly just blasting steel targets at various distances. Anyone want to guess if its pure luck/maybe bad heat treatment on that case of Tula, or is it due to the different chamber dimensions between the 5.56 chamber vs the .223 Wylde chamber. That's the only time I've ever had issues with steal ammo - though most of the time I'm shooting a rifle with a .223 Wylde chamber.
As an aside, I haven't really bothered to shoot steel since ammo has returned to shelves a couple years ago.
And, just to add, given the properties of steel compared to brass, mainly the elastic properties, brass cases should inflate to fully seal the chamber at around 15,000 to 18,000 psi, steel requires about 30,000 to 40,000 psi. That equates to a time difference of about .07 ms, or 0.0007 seconds.
Also, the hardness of the case head is not super hard on a steel case, compared to a brass case. Generally, the rim section of the case for a brass 7.62mm NATO is listed as 180 to 220, for the experimental steel case Frankford worked up in the early 1970, (and I can’t imagine the Russians doing things widely different) the rim section was listed as 240 to 280.
Thanks for the scientific explanation Lysander.
How about stainless steel?
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/lysanderxiii/UntitledSS_zpspp4xlrwf.png
I fired 400 rounds of lacquer coated steel case 55g Wolf ammunition today without a malfunction. That's 1,200 rounds in the past two weeks and makes a total of 800 rounds of lacquer coated ammunition fired since the last cleaning without a failure.
Does this mean that certain AR-15s cannot tolerate steel case ammunition, but others can?
wildcard600
09-19-16, 20:39
I fired 400 rounds of lacquer coated steel case 55g Wolf ammunition today without a malfunction. That's 1,200 rounds in the past two weeks and makes a total of 800 rounds of lacquer coated ammunition fired since the last cleaning without a failure.
Does this mean that certain AR-15s cannot tolerate steel case ammunition, but others can?
My BCM's have never given me an issue with steel case ammo. I have a PSA upper that I threw on a beater lower to have around when i'm brush mowing the back fields that continually choked on steel cased. So, after chasing my tail around for a while I said "screw it" and put some soft scrub on a shotgun mop and "polished" the chamber a bit with it. What came out was a mess of sticky brown crap that reminded me of cosmoline. I repeated this until the mop came out clean and now that upper eats steel cased like a BCM.
I don't know what the brown crap was, but i suspect it was some kind of protective coating applied after the barrel was manufactured. I would recommend to anyone who is having issues with steel cased to clean your chamber really well.
I have a few thousand rounds through my DD MK18 this summer (all suppressed) without a single issue.. All my steel ammo is .223 62gr Wolf Military Classic and WPA manufactured at the Barnaul plant.
While it is obviously not precision ammo it is fairly accurate out to 200 yards as well.
Actually, steel cases obturate just fine.
I had surmised that steel didn't obturate as fast because the sooty deposits seem to only be in the neck area of most people's chambers, and because of the particular "sound" steel cartridges make: they do not "ring" like brass, but rather "thunk." To me the latter indicated a very different elasticity profile, which would go along with the case neck not expanding at the same rate as a brass neck.
Is the very tiny delay you mentioned long enough for some gas to "float" the neck? Since even the filthiest brass-cased 5.56 I've shot (generally Winchester) does not leave the kind of case neck deposits I've seen with "good" steel-cased (Barnaul) ammunition. There's got to be some specific mechanism that causes this difference, even if it isn't as likely the cause of stuck cases.
Oh yeah, to the individual who dissed "cheap decisions," I agree with the other guy who says "more shooting is always better." I don't expect much in terms of precision from any bulk ammunition, and I don't depend on steel cased Russian ammo for anything but trigger time. But more shooting is always better.
I had surmised that steel didn't obturate as fast because the sooty deposits seem to only be in the neck area of most people's chambers, and because of the particular "sound" steel cartridges make: they do not "ring" like brass, but rather "thunk." To me the latter indicated a very different elasticity profile, which would go along with the case neck not expanding at the same rate as a brass neck.
Is the very tiny delay you mentioned long enough for some gas to "float" the neck? Since even the filthiest brass-cased 5.56 I've shot (generally Winchester) does not leave the kind of case neck deposits I've seen with "good" steel-cased (Barnaul) ammunition. There's got to be some specific mechanism that causes this difference, even if it isn't as likely the cause of stuck cases.
Oh yeah, to the individual who dissed "cheap decisions," I agree with the other guy who says "more shooting is always better." I don't expect much in terms of precision from any bulk ammunition, and I don't depend on steel cased Russian ammo for anything but trigger time. But more shooting is always better.
From examining the last 100 or so rounds from a single lot of Tula I have shot, I did not see abnormal sooting of the case neck, it wasn't much worse than some of my reloads.
I would like to see some steel cased ammunition loaded with a known clean propellant, or at least the same exact propellant loaded into steel and brass and the results compared.
Maybe an experiment is in order . . .
At classes I should steel cases Wolf almost exclusively. It's $100/case cheaper than brass. In three cases I have paid for a new barrel and anything over that I am ahead of the game. Seems like a no brainier to me.
At classes I should steel cases Wolf almost exclusively. It's $100/case cheaper than brass. In three cases I have paid for a new barrel and anything over that I am ahead of the game. Seems like a no brainier to me.
This is my thought process as well.
I am actually about to purchase a new 10.3 barrel for my MK18 this week so I'll have an extra sitting around if/when I actually wear mine out.
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sasquatchoslav
09-22-16, 06:01
This is my thought process as well.
I am actually about to purchase a new 10.3 barrel for my MK18 this week so I'll have an extra sitting around if/when I actually wear mine out.
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I think you will be shocked at when that barrel swap needs to happen. I have an old Colt that went over to a diet of steel maybe ~ 99-00. Still my go to. With the volume our family shoots it's not barrels we could afford it's entirely new rifles at this point.
Since I shoot behind my house out in the field mostly these days I've nearly switched 100% to shooting polymer steel wolf. That eliminates my reloaders OCD that causes me to try to find every single solitary brass case.....
Actually, steel cases obturate just fine.
At 50,000 psi the sides of a steel case are stuck against the chamber walls as well as any brass case. The difference is at what pressure the case fully expands to achieve the seal.
The bullet uncorks from the case neck when the pressure inside the case is about 900 psi, brass or steel. As soon as it uncorks, gas will start to flow around the case into the chamber bringing all the dirty combustion products with it. How fast the case neck inflates to seal this flow off depends on a number of things, but mainly, 1) how fast is the pressure rise inside the case, and 2) how resistant is the case neck is to distortion.
Stuck cases are probably far more likely caused by improper heat treatment of the steel. Otherwise all steel ammunition would start to show FTE after a certain number of rounds, which is not the case, they tend to occur at random.
As to lacquer causing problems, all US produced steel cased ammunition, mainly 25mm, uses lacquer as a corrosion preventative. However, and this is a big however, 25mm product testing has shown that the wrong choice of lacquer will cause problems. Is it out side the realm of possibility that some lots of Russian ammo where made with a poor choice of lacquer? No, I don't think so. But again, it's the generalization that is wrong - lacquer = bad, no, more correctly it's poor quality control = bad . . .
As to the alloy used, almost everybody that has ever made cases from steel has used a mild steel alloy, 1025 or 1035, maybe 1040 or the local equivalent. One, it's cheap, and that was the whole point of steel cases in the first place. And two, it has a strength similar to cartridge brass. Many people think that steel cases are much stronger than brass, they are a tad stronger at the rim, but not really enough to really make much difference.
And, here is where we are going to refer back to the obturation thing. The neck of a brass case is fully annealed (or it should be) so the the yield strength is 45,000 to 60,000 psi. Any guesses to the yield strength of 1035 tempered to about HRb 60 to 70 (what Frankford found to work best)? Yeah, it's around 40,000 to 50,000 psi.
The resistance of the case neck to distortion is about the same for brass and steel cases, so they obturate just as well and, for the same pressure curves, just as fast. The reason Russian cases are dirtier on the outside is the probably due to the propellant they use.
There has been a big change in Russian produced ammunition that has changed the whole barrel wear thing, however. They, at least Tula, have stopped cladding the jacket with gilding metal. It might make a significant difference with .224 bullets. Generally, the cladding was .003" thick, which is about the same as the depth of the lands. The cladding did provide some lubricity similar to regular GM jacketed bullets.
Outstanding info.
From examining the last 100 or so rounds from a single lot of Tula I have shot, I did not see abnormal sooting of the case neck, it wasn't much worse than some of my reloads.
I would like to see some steel cased ammunition loaded with a known clean propellant, or at least the same exact propellant loaded into steel and brass and the results compared.
Maybe an experiment is in order . . .
Well, I decided I would test this theory, and pulled five Tula bullets and replaced the propellant with 24.5 grains of benchmark, and loaded five rounds in brass cases with the same load.
Full report later.
Well, I decided I would test this theory, and pulled five Tula bullets and replaced the propellant with 24.5 grains of benchmark, and loaded five rounds in brass cases with the same load.
Full report later.
Looking forward to it.
These test rounds were shot alternating brass and steel, about 10 of each at a time.
There doesn't appear to be any increased fouling on the steel cases.
41626
Actually, the 5.45mm x 39 is not as tapered as you think. The angle of the side wall for a 5.45mm x 39 case is only 0.03 degrees more tapered than that of 5.56mm NATO.
There are two things that kill the reliability of steel cases, one - the heat treatment of the case, and two - how well the case conforms to the required dimensional specifications, which are not necessarily the exact same dimensions as for a brass cases.
I believe 5.56X45 has a 1 degree taper, 7.62X39 has a 2.7 degree taper, and 5.45X39 has a 1.6 degree taper.
I believe 5.56X45 has a 1 degree taper, 7.62X39 has a 2.7 degree taper, and 5.45X39 has a 1.6 degree taper.
The is an extra zero in the quoted post. The difference is .3 degrees, and that references the side angle, not the total included angle.
The drawing specified taper per inch on the diameter (taper/inch is just the tangent of the body taper angle) for the various cartridges:
5.45 x 39 - .02800 TPI
5.56 NATO - .01746 TPI
7.62 NATO - .01200 TPI
7.62 x 39 - .04688 TPI
.50 BMG - .03220 TPI
14.4mm x 114 - .01815 TPI
25mm x 137 NATO - .02500 TPI
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