View Full Version : Is this reload technique stupid?
Hi all, I have a question regarding the reloading and fixing of malfunctions in semi auto handguns for practical shooting.
I have had the opportunity to do some training with a different agency than my own that's local to me, and they teach everyone in their department to perform emergency reloads and fix malfunctions with the handgun pointed down range, at arms length or close to arms length as if you a were still shooting rather than to bring the gun up to your face in the traditional "workspace" manner. They are saying it's the best way to perform reloads because there isn't any "wasted movement" of bringing the gun back in front of your face and that if you experience an empty magazine or a malfunction while in a fight, continuing to keep the gun pointed down range at your opponent might not clue them in that you aren't shooting back and you have an issue with your weapon and invite them to run up and kill you.
Is this stupid? For me trying it out the last couple of days, it's been considerably slower than the traditional method that I'm used to, but I can chalk that up to never having done it before. If I did it consistently I can see it being fast also. The logic of continuing to point down range does seem solid, especially from a law enforcement perspective. Am I better of sticking to the traditional way I've always done it? Is this a better way to do things and should I try to switch? What do you guys think?
MountainRaven
07-27-16, 22:10
They have a sound hypothesis. Does it stand up to scientific scrutiny?
Given the vast number of guys who reload on a clock who don't use this theoretically faster method of reloading/malfunction clearing, I suspect it would not.
I think those guys aren't really thinking it through. Timer will tell the tale. Sometimes guys forget that when they teach tactics they are betting YOUR life.
This sounds to me like some square range bullshit someone thought up to ensure that muzzles stay down range to their satisfaction and made up a pretty flimsy reason to justify it.
JMO
I'm not sure. My first thought was: **** you guys, this is stupid. I've never seen anybody do this before, and you guys aren't extra tactical or extra special in a world full of professional warriors who don't do this. I'm trying to not allow my ego to get in the way of being objective and becoming the best pistol shooter I can be.
Just kinda playing with it in the living room (with an empty gun and mags obviously) it's very awkward to strip mags, feed them well, and even moreso to do an overhand grab on the slide.
Doable? Sure. But think...have you ever seen anyone else do it? That should tell you something.
I commend you for taking a class and trying something new. I've never heard of this technique until now.
Malfunctions.
The malfunctions I might get are:
-bumping the slide stop upward causing a premature slide lockback (I know it shouldn't happen but sometimes it just does);
-some type of stovepipe, limp wrist, failure to eject/double-feed, weaponlight-caused cycling error; or
-a no-fire due to a bad round of ammo.
A tap, rack (& if necessary, a bang) drill may cure all but the middle one.
With the first malf, it could also end up dumping a good, although, partially loaded mag on the ground.
Is that the malfunction cure you're speaking of or are they somehow curing a double-feed type malf with arms outstretched also? If so, I can't see doing that.
My initial thoughts are the new technique is stupid, and a waste of time getting a gun quickly back into service. I suppose I'd really need to be there and see and try it for myself.
Perhaps I'm already doing what you've been taught or somewhere in between, however.
My "tap, rack, bang" is done pretty darn quickly with only minor bending of my elbows.
I think those guys aren't really thinking it through. Timer will tell the tale. Sometimes guys forget that when they teach tactics they are betting YOUR life.
This sounds to me like some square range bullshit someone thought up to ensure that muzzles stay down range to their satisfaction and made up a pretty flimsy reason to justify it.
JMO
I agree. Sometimes people see something on TV, internet, or magazine and try to re invent the wheel.
Meanwhile everybody legit just does the prime basics faster and harder.
MountainRaven
07-27-16, 22:57
I guess I'm the odd one out.
I've heard of this before, but it seemed to be a common thing in the 90s, when we (Americans with guns) hadn't quite figured it out, yet. (In fact, I'd bet you have seen it. Everybody's favorite former-SAS movie shooting instructor taught the actor playing the T-1000, Robert Patrick, to perform reloads with this technique for Terminator 2: Judgement Day.)
I commend you for taking a class and trying something new. I've never heard of this technique until now.
Malfunctions.
The malfunctions I might get are:
-bumping the slide stop upward causing a premature slide lockback (I know it shouldn't happen but sometimes it just does);
-some type of stovepipe, limp wrist, failure to eject/double-feed, weaponlight-caused cycling error; or
-a no-fire due to a bad round of ammo.
A tap, rack (& if necessary, a bang) drill may cure all but the middle one.
With the first malf, it could also end up dumping a good, although, partially loaded mag on the ground.
Is that the malfunction cure you're speaking of or are they somehow curing a double-feed type malf with arms outstretched also? If so, I can't see doing that.
My initial thoughts are the new technique is stupid, and a waste of time getting a gun quickly back into service. I suppose I'd really need to be there and see and try it for myself.
Perhaps I'm already doing what you've been taught or somewhere in between, however. My "tap, rack, bang" is done pretty darn quickly with only minor bending of my elbows.
I should have clarified, no they are generally bringing the gun into the body with the elbows bent for a phase 2 or level 2 type malfunction. As far as I can tell, it isn't possible to fix that with the gun pointed forward and arms outstretched. They are doing the tap, rack and ready with the gun pointed forward, and I'm thinking I have no problem with this.
I am trying my best not to dismiss it only because other people aren't doing it, I don't wanna be they guy that gets stuck in less efficient ways of doing things because "it isn't my way" or "I've always done this." I firmly believe that good ideas can come from anybody, and it doesn't just have to be from a Larry Vickers class or some other big name trainer.
Coal Dragger
07-27-16, 23:10
Well it will not hurt you to learn their way to the best of your ability and then compare it later with your previous or preferred way. Determine which works best and move on. I've done this professionaly in my line of work being instructed in train handling by very experienced engineers, and found many methods of accomplishing the same thing, picked the ones that worked best for me and continue to refine my technique.
Personally bringing the gun back into the body or work space allows you to see what you're doing better, and gives you a shit load more leverage/strength to deal with an actual malfunction. That's just my take, even if it is "wasted motion" which I doubt, I'll still pick the method that gets the gun back where I can work on it more easily for reloading or malfunction clearing. The goal is to get the gun up again as fast as possible, in order to do that you should probably pick the most reliable method. I seat magazines more reliably closer in to my body, and I clear malfunctions more reliably that way too. I'll sacrifice that fraction of a second to make sure that magazine is seated well, or that I positively cleared that dud round or stoppage.
I haven't heard of keeping the arms extended while clearing a service pistol malfunction. Pulling the weapon in close to you and keeping it pointed toward the problem requiring the application of deadly force is commonplace in my area. The technique has the benefits of leverage and minimizing flagging others while training with personnel who have limited firearm skills.
We emphasize moving off the line of attack while getting the weapon running.
I had 2 malfs during my officer involved shooting. I had to fix them basically one handed do to having a 90lbs malinois going ape shit in the other, going by the way you described it would have been impossible for me to get them fixed or taken all night. If you half a malf at night, you should be moving with the light off, and get it fixed.
I had 2 malfs during my officer involved shooting. I had to fix them basically one handed do to having a 90lbs malinois going ape shit in the other, going by the way you described it would have been impossible for me to get them fixed or taken all night. If you half a malf at night, you should be moving with the light off, and get it fixed.
How did you cycle the slide? Did you use the heel of your boot or the edge of your duty belt to cycle the slide? If you used a different technique, I would appreciate you sharing it.
The two points I have always heard being emphasized the most were getting your gun up in front of your face between you and the threat, and getting your ass off of the X and moving with a purpose.
This technique was very popular in the late 90's when I was in the police academy.
Emergency reloads and immediate action drills were done at arms length.
When the revelation came that if you brought the gun into your work space so you didn't have to search for the magwell it was like someone re invented the wheel!
How did you cycle the slide? Did you use the heel of your boot or the edge of your duty belt to cycle the slide? If you used a different technique, I would appreciate you sharing it.
Back of the holster, to clear, and rack a new round.
I've done more than a dozen formal pistol self-defense courses in recent years. I've never taken one where I didn't learn something. I'd be inclined to go to the course, try the method, add that knowledge to your total fund of knowledge and decide if it's a technique that works for you.
Failure2Stop
07-28-16, 07:26
https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAWZAAAAJDk1YzU3ZDE1LTI4OTktNDc0Zi04ODJmLTJlYmZmY2JlZDE5Yg.jpg
I tried it before. I found bringing it in is faster and more reliable. It's not wasted movement if you're efficient, bring the gun in and drop the mag while you grab your reload, insert mag, regain sight picture while you close the slide.
I find its a lot easier to botch a reload at arms length, so I stopped doing it after a few days trying it out.
For tp rack, I bring it in half way.
This technique was very popular in the late 90's when I was in the police academy.
Emergency reloads and immediate action drills were done at arms length.
When the revelation came that if you brought the gun into your work space so you didn't have to search for the magwell it was like someone re invented the wheel!
What Cory said. Advertised benefits included keeping the muzzle on the bad guy, and being able to see the gun to solve a problem if needed. It was also a way to keep a line of shooters safely pointed in the same direction. We know better now, but all that is old will be new again for someone.
This is why it's important for current trainers and thinkers to study the work of our predecessors. Part of credibly doing what we do is understanding what we did before and why we left it behind.
The ROs are probably just scared of the people on the line and just want them to hold the gun pointed down range as much as possible.
dwhitehorne
07-28-16, 15:19
Going through two police academies in the 90's I honestly think it was more to keep your muzzle down range than anything. It was mention keeping the gun pointed at the bad guy but if the gun is empty who cares. Now when I teach I try to relate manipulating the weapon to routine activities. Do you pick up your kids or your groceries with your arms straight out in front of you or do you put your watch on your wrist with your arms fully extended. Why try and manipulate a weapon that way. When you deal with 50 and 60 year old instructors you get some older techniques. I was teaching a rifle class a few years ago an my oldest instructor mentioned Rhodesian Carry and I thought wow have not heard that in a while.
When you are taught something different take it for what it is worth and use what works best for you after the training is over. David
Mysteryman
07-28-16, 18:56
Well it will not hurt you to learn their way to the best of your ability and then compare it later with your previous or preferred way. Determine which works best and move on. I've done this professionaly in my line of work being instructed in train handling by very experienced engineers, and found many methods of accomplishing the same thing, picked the ones that worked best for me and continue to refine my technique.
Personally bringing the gun back into the body or work space allows you to see what you're doing better, and gives you a shit load more leverage/strength to deal with an actual malfunction. That's just my take, even if it is "wasted motion" which I doubt, I'll still pick the method that gets the gun back where I can work on it more easily for reloading or malfunction clearing. The goal is to get the gun up again as fast as possible, in order to do that you should probably pick the most reliable method. I seat magazines more reliably closer in to my body, and I clear malfunctions more reliably that way too. I'll sacrifice that fraction of a second to make sure that magazine is seated well, or that I positively cleared that dud round or stoppage.
Here's your winner...
MM
I keep forgetting that I am getting old, but then I get slap in the face reminder when the younger whippersnappers take some type of a technique as something newfangled, when in fact it is something from the stone ages of LE training. As others have mentioned, those trainers are still stuck in a time warp and the advantages / disadvantages of the pure mechanics and any possible psychological effects it may have on an adversary is not as credible as current methodology / techniques of today.
Anytime or anything that takes your eyes off the fight is negative, I've reloaded in front of my face for decades, looking thru the trigger guard. Maintain your clam as best u can in a fight... That's who wins.
Back of the holster, to clear, and rack a new round.
Thank you. This is one of the options we teach and it helps reinforce the idea with an example.
ramairthree
07-29-16, 10:23
It is not so much a stupid technique as it is a dated technique.
It is like stance yourself to make a samller target,
Using the serrations on the front of the trigger guard,
Etc.
Years from now,
When no wearable armor protects against new bullets,
Your smart gun finger print read is on the front of the trigger guard,
And your gun will not function unless a few feet from your body as a safety feature,
All our techniques will be outdated.
Did you spend much time actually watching the guys do it? Most jobs in NY, mine certainly included, don't run their own academies and as a result we send people to whichever of the four that are close to us is running a class close to when they get hired. Every academy has a different head instructor and therefore has different techniques. We have a few guys who do it this way and if you watch them there is a TON of wasted movement in the form of uncontrolled movement. When the magazine slams home their arms look like seesaws.
Did you spend much time actually watching the guys do it? Most jobs in NY, mine certainly included, don't run their own academies and as a result we send people to whichever of the four that are close to us is running a class close to when they get hired. Every academy has a different head instructor and therefore has different techniques. We have a few guys who do it this way and if you watch them there is a TON of wasted movement in the form of uncontrolled movement. When the magazine slams home their arms look like seesaws.
You bring up a very good point. Economy of motion is an important aspect of good defensive pistol training.
Dwhitehorne nailed it for us....... keeps all the recruits' muzzles pointing the right way when the basic manipulations of reloads are taught. Once they have demonstrated adherence to proper procedures the "workspace" method is introduced with movement etc.
Dwhitehorne nailed it for us....... keeps all the recruits' muzzles pointing the right way when the basic manipulations of reloads are taught. Once they have demonstrated adherence to proper procedures the "workspace" method is introduced with movement etc.
The problem with that methodology is that it is difficult to unstring the pathways which have already been created. I think it is better to start manipulations the way you want them to do it under stress. Span of control and having line officers/instructors being alert instead of BSing is critical.
JM devalued $.02
Don't disagree but those are decisions made above my pay grade currently
hyperionammo
07-30-16, 01:02
I am little confused now. May be they are right as sometimes it's can workout effectively.
multistage
07-30-16, 01:34
I reload with my arms extended, weapon on target. I just like how it works. I don't really turn the gun to accept the magazine. I do practice dumping a magazine and popping another one in while standing behind my couch. I just let em fall on the cushions.
Long ago, I watched a guy do it like that. Looked smooth and efficient. So I started doing it as well.
As long as you are fairly quick and slam the fresh magazine in straight with no hangups, and don't turn the gun so that the muzzle is 90 degrees off target (that makes me nervous), I don't think there is a wrong way to do it.
I was taught the "arms length, keep the gun pointed toward the bad guy" technique in a class with another agency. It was awkward for me but there were some guys who had more reps that used it quite well. I think the "bring it in to your workspace" method is better but the arms length method can work too.
I think the issue here is several things: We have several decades of experience from 1) gunfights and 2) competition. Advances in technology allow us to examine and critique the experiences of ourselves and other by video and discussions in arenas such as this.
The problem is that some instructors get their initial training and then stay within that comfort zone for the remainder of their career, never expanding their horizons. My experience is this disturbingly close to the norm for many police instructors.
So what you have to ask yourself about weapon handling 'katas' such as reloads are:
1) How do world class shooters do it?
2) How do folks that have used their weapons in combat do it?
And finally, since it is YOUR life you could be betting:
1) Does it make sense to YOU after critical examination?
2) Can the instructor explain any questions you have about the methodology?
A lot of time instructors lose track of the fact that when they teach tactics, they are betting their student's lives.
ramairthree
07-30-16, 13:15
26Inf makes some very logical points.
I don't have the same sling, stance, grip, etc. I did thirty years ago.
While I am not about to contort myself into some gay yoga instructor positions and cool looking grips just because some really good shot coast guard veteran does,
I have made updates as time goes on.
Thanks for all the replies guys, I didn't know this was an "old" thing. I have only been seriously shooting for a few years, so this was definitely before my time. I think I'm going to stick with the method I've always used, I don't think this is for me.
Coal Dragger
07-30-16, 17:47
Well good on you for trying the other method, evaluating it, and deciding on your best course.
Stepping out of your comfort zone teaches you new things.
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