View Full Version : What is a good "1st" AR around $850
.357sigger
09-02-08, 22:40
I have a buddy that want to buy his first AR. I am well aware of the good stuff but those are a little beyond what he wants to spend. This will really only be a range gun because a shotgun is best for things that go bump in the night anyways...what would be the available options in his price range of $850? I was thinking maybe CMMG or ADS. All input is welcome. Thanks!:D
thopkins22
09-02-08, 23:00
This will really only be a range gun because a shotgun is best for things that go bump in the night anyways.
You sure about that? Depends on a lot of things.
I'm sure people with more experience than I will chime in, but why don't you have him look at the Charles Daly Defense line? From all accounts they are a lot of gun for the money. $100-200 past your budget, but for that why not get hard use gun instead of a pure range toy that may or may not have problems?
.357sigger
09-02-08, 23:17
You sure about that? Depends on a lot of things.
I'm sure people with more experience than I will chime in, but why don't you have him look at the Charles Daly Defense line? From all accounts they are a lot of gun for the money. $100-200 past your budget, but for that why not get hard use gun instead of a pure range toy that may or may not have problems?
Lol...I was just providing his thoughts on the subject. He told me that it will really only be a range gun and that he has a Rem 870 that he uses as his home defense gun...he is kind of a cheap skate so I don't know if I can get him to pony up the extra money but I can try. In the mean time are there any reasonable options in the 850 range? Thanks....
$850 won't buy you much for a quality AR15.
And we also don't recommend "1st" or "beginners" cheap rifles.
You need to start with a quality basic gun and build off of it with accessories when you get more experience and money.
For this price, I would buy a surplus Colt M16A1 or Colt M4 upper and mate it to a used Colt lower.
It may not be modern or "trendy" but you will be light years ahead of anything else in this price range.
Contact Grant from G&R Tactical, I'm sure he can help your out with your requirements.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7297
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13279
1859sharps
09-02-08, 23:29
Even if your buddy doesn't think he will use his AR for defense now, he is going to want the gun to be reliable at the range. even "just a range gun" is no good if it doesn't go bang reliably when you pull the trigger.
you say he is cheap, but is he patient? if he is, play on his cheapness to buy a better rifle for a few bucks more. how? get him to buy half now (ie complete lower), then save up and by the other half in a month or two.
Even if your buddy doesn't think he will use his AR for defense now, he is going to want the gun to be reliable at the range. even "just a range gun" is no good if it doesn't go bang reliably when you pull the trigger.
you say he is cheap, but is he patient? if he is, play on his cheapness to buy a better rifle for a few bucks more. how? get him to buy half now (ie complete lower), then save up and by the other half in a month or two.
Sound advise.
We also don't have "range guns" that aren't reliable for serious use.
If the OP goes cheap now with some "beginner" gun. He will get rid of it and take a monetary loss.
-OR-
He can buy quality once for his lifetime.
Lonestar.45
09-02-08, 23:42
M4 or Midlength upper from Bravo Company: $450
M4 or Midlength handguards: $20
Charging handle: $20
LMT bolt carrier group: $130
Stag complete lower: $250
He's looking at $870 and he's got a great quality first AR. All he needs above that are sights and mags. Pick up a BUIS from LaRue for $89 and add optics later. I don't think he'd get better quality unless he spent more for a Colt or LMT complete lower, and I think it would only be a marginal upgrade doing that IMHO, others will disagree. I have found Stag complete lowers from $230 to $250 locally so I think that would be doable if you looked around. They have the milspec receiver extensions unlike many others (Bushmaster, DPMS, RRA, etc), so if he wanted to upgrade stocks later it would be easy. I've done two that way, one with a BCM middy upper, another with an LMT M4 upper, and I'm really pleased with both.
.357sigger
09-03-08, 00:55
Thanks for the advice...that is what I have been telling him all along...piece it together with quality parts. He seems set on buying a complete gun...I don't know why but he is...particularly he was looking at something like this CMMG:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=109086458
I know that CMMG is not a Noveske but I also didnt think that they were junk...I will try to either to get him to wait and piece it together with top notch stuff or try and steer him into spending more on a complete LMT. :)
Thanks for the advice...that is what I have been telling him all along...piece it together with quality parts. He seems set on buying a complete gun...I don't know why but he is...particularly he was looking at something like this CMMG:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=109086458
I know that CMMG is not a Noveske but I also didnt think that they were junk...I will try to either to get him to wait and piece it together with top notch stuff or try and steer him into spending more on a complete LMT. :)
Be aware that the link you posted to is one of CMMG's "bargain" rifles. 1/9 twist, WASP coating, etc. Considerably different from the example I PMed you.
They put together a nice quality AR, with tons of customizable options, but the wait times are ridiculous. Something along the lines of 1 to 3 months depending on the configuration.
Sound advise.
We also don't have "range guns" that aren't reliable for serious use.
If the OP goes cheap now with some "beginner" gun. He will get rid of it and take a monetary loss.
-OR-
He can buy quality once for his lifetime.
+1
I bought cheap the first time, then found this site, looked, listened, and learned. Just had my FFL sell my "Cheap OLY" and today gave them $947 for a excellant Charles Daly M4-LE. (Thats correct, a damn good M-4 for under $1000) (Only $97 more for him) Read nothing but supper good stuff about CD here. Wish I had spent the extra the first time instead.
My$.02 worth, for free!
$850 won't buy you much for a quality AR15.
?? What ??
BCM 16 inch upper $450
LMT or BCM M16 bolt and carrier $130
CMT charging handle $20
And quality complete lower like a Stag with milspec buffer tube for $250
Thats will get you a damn good rifle for $850
Failure2Stop
09-03-08, 03:31
M4 or Midlength upper from Bravo Company: $450
M4 or Midlength handguards: $20
Charging handle: $20
LMT bolt carrier group: $130
Stag complete lower: $250
He's looking at $870 and he's got a great quality first AR. All he needs above that are sights and mags. Pick up a BUIS from LaRue for $89 and add optics later. I don't think he'd get better quality unless he spent more for a Colt or LMT complete lower, and I think it would only be a marginal upgrade doing that IMHO, others will disagree.
I agree. The above list is what I consider to be past the threshold of hobby-only. While other lowers may arrive with better LPKs, if there is a single place to save some dough with minimal effect on the system, it's the lower.
I think your friend is just looking at a rifle that will give him lots of fun as he sends rounds down range. For low cost to purchase and shoot, why not consider an AK or SKS or one of the M1 carbines??
if he's truly set on buying an AR platform, you are probably looking at the DPMS's. They are basic plinkers, and mixed performanace; some members here have them and never had a problem with the rifle. Others have a very different opinion.
I still use my 10/22 to burn through alot of ammo, can spend the morning at the range, and still have some $ for an ice cream on the way home. We'll take a pocket full of old golf balls with us and throw one down range. Then we "chase" it with the 10/22's until it finally gets tossed out of the range area.
good luck
You sure about that? Depends on a lot of things.
I'm sure people with more experience than I will chime in, but why don't you have him look at the Charles Daly Defense line? From all accounts they are a lot of gun for the money. $100-200 past your budget, but for that why not get hard use gun instead of a pure range toy that may or may not have problems?
i agree thomkins, a cd m416 is $960. and there aint a damm thing wrong with. it.
.357sigger
09-03-08, 07:38
Is G&R a CCD dealer? If not can you point me to one? Thanks.
?? What ??
BCM 16 inch upper $450
LMT or BCM M16 bolt and carrier $130
CMT charging handle $20
And quality complete lower like a Stag with milspec buffer tube for $250
Thats will get you a damn good rifle for $850
When you factor in shipping this wont come out to $850.
I've been around this before.
Your $850 rifle becomes $925 and the newbie doesn't like the extra cost from what was originally quoted.
Likewise a few various components are missing. The most important being a BUIS. You can do a fairly nice rifle for right around $1000 when everything is meticulously added up.
This will really only be a range gun because a shotgun is best for things that go bump in the night anyways
As long as those things are just birds. I can't think of anything a shotgun does better than a carbine for home defense purposes.
When you factor in shipping this wont come out to $850.
I've been around this before.
Your $850 rifle becomes $925 and the newbie doesn't like the extra cost from what was originally quoted.
GTS has all these items in stock and does free shipping on orders over $300. So shipping costs wouldn't be an issue. Yes you do have to factor in a BUIS. Which is anywher from $50 for a used carry handles to $120 for an LMT BUIS.
i contacted CDD through this sight about some uppers and other parts.
if you contact Mike directly i'll bet you can cook up a deal. check out the member sales fourm--he has a spot up there for blemished CDD lowers--
last time i looked mike had a CDD lower complete for $230 shipped--
add in a complete cdd d4m-le upper and your good to go.
i recently used a cdd d4m-le upper in my last build --although with a LMT bcg.
the damned thing is digesting all my hard to run wolf and mill surp ammo without a cough or hiccup.
if you get a CDD--mile will see to it that your happy camper with it.
Paladin4415
09-03-08, 10:05
The CDD D-M4LE is a real good place for your friend to start. It can be bought for between $950-1000 out the door. It has a lot of features you only find on higher priced rifles and has gotten real good reviews. The extra $100 he spends now will be well worth it later.
go to the cdd forum.
http://www.charlesdalyforum.com/index.php?
mike keeps a pretty close eye out, just look for the head honcho, the be mike.
Lonestar.45
09-03-08, 14:53
When you factor in shipping this wont come out to $850.
I've been around this before.
Your $850 rifle becomes $925 and the newbie doesn't like the extra cost from what was originally quoted.
Not true. I got free shipping on all but the lower. I think I spent $5 cover charge for the gunshow and $2 in gas to get there to pick that up. I got both an LMT M4 upper with all the goodies with free shipping, and also a BCM middy with all the goodies, with free shipping from Bravo Company, on two separate occasions. All orders over $400 are free UPS Ground.
Not true. I got free shipping on all but the lower. I think I spent $5 cover charge for the gunshow and $2 in gas to get there to pick that up. I got both an LMT M4 upper with all the goodies with free shipping, and also a BCM middy with all the goodies, with free shipping from Bravo Company, on two separate occasions. All orders over $400 are free UPS Ground.
Most places don't have all this in stock at once and don't have free shipping.
I've heard lots of good things about the CMMG rifles. How do the STAG 2H models stack up?
[QUOTE=.357sigger;213178I was thinking maybe CMMG or ADS.[/QUOTE]
I have a CMMG. I would buy another. I special ordered mine, and it was $814, including shipping, plus $50 in CA fees.
Ben
being a new guy to this community i must say that in the three days i have been a member i have gotten more great information without ever having to post my own questions. I probably will never have due to the endless great data provided here. Thanks to you all for the awsome knowledge.
-Larry:)
Well, at the complete opposite end of the spectrum is this Bushy (yeah, I know) A2 HBAR at $850 new, which came to about $920 with taxes. With upgrades to the BCG, etc. it would probably top the $1K mark. As an intro the the AR weapons system it's not a bad deal, but of course it has the fixed handguard which many (if not most) frown on.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/pb57/HPIM0753.jpg
A gunsmith that works at the range I visit explained the following:
A. All the money people spend on "tricked-out ARs is mostly a waste."
B. The AR system is really quite simple and the more complex you make it, the more breaking points.
C. They have several Bushmaster A2 & A3 16" ARs
D. He showed me one that they lost count of rounds 2 years ago(at ~30k) and looks soot and used; moreover, they only clean it when it stops working (they are short on help)!
This gun still shots good and is reasonably accurate as are all of their Bushmasters. What else do you want? This gun has been through hell and still is a good shooter. Save your money and buy a Bushmaster-our Police department swears by them.
IMHO all these fancy fix-ups are just a $ gimmick. KISS.
Do what you want, but my $ is on Bushmaster (great customer service, etc). No, I do not work for Bushy, I am a Scientist (I experiment with all things).
Good shooting and please vote for McCain or we are screwed!!
thopkins22
09-04-08, 13:29
A gunsmith that works at the range I visit explained the following:
A. All the money people spend on "tricked-out ARs is mostly a waste."
B. The AR system is really quite simple and the more complex you make it, the more breaking points.
I stopped listening to people at the range/gunshop a long time ago(at least about gear and guns).
Who was advocating he add rails, lasers, multiple sights, and a coffee maker? Even so, none of them interfere with the actual functioning of the gun, and do nothing but add versatility and weight. Or does a higher quality AR count as "tricked out"?
I am a Scientist (I experiment with all things).
Yet the vast majority of professionals who test and use rifles say that there IS a difference.
Will a Bushmaster be sufficient for most things? I don't know, probably. Are you getting a good value? Probably not. When a rifle built to a higher standard and assembled correctly costs one hundred dollars more than a Bushmaster(or often less if you're pricing Bushmasters at local shops), why bother?
Thanks for your reply, I am willing to be educated; however, I read a lot and unless I am missing some "hidden" source, the information on the web, gun mags, Police Forums, etc seems very mixed. I see no consensus. Maybe it is too early to really judge the durability of the Bushmaster (last few years). Mostly the problem seem to focus on systems (i.e., gas, bolt carrier, etc.). Hell, the plastic is not better, the barrel may last a few rounds longer (I doubt it on hbl)? The gun at the range is not a "story" I have seen and fired the weapon. I just do not believe a Colt is that much better or will be more durable
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-207599.html
Thanks for your reply, I am willing to be educated; however, I read a lot and unless I am missing some "hidden" source, the information on the web, gun mags, Police Forums, etc seems very mixed. I see no consensus. Maybe it is too early to really judge the durability of the Bushmaster (last few years). Mostly the problem seem to focus on systems (i.e., gas, bolt carrier, etc.). Hell, the plastic is not better, the barrel may last a few rounds longer (I doubt it on hbl)? The gun at the range is not a "story" I have seen and fired the weapon. I just do not believe a Colt is that much better or will be more durable
Did you read my thread about the "day in the life of a BM dealer?"
Have you reviewed the Chart and looked at the differences between BM and Colt?
C4
I have a buddy that want to buy his first AR. I am well aware of the good stuff but those are a little beyond what he wants to spend. This will really only be a range gun because a shotgun is best for things that go bump in the night anyways...what would be the available options in his price range of $850? I was thinking maybe CMMG or ADS. All input is welcome. Thanks!:D
By my calculations, you could get into the following for about $900:
BCM upper
LMT L7C2
LMT BCG
LMT CH
BCM Double Heat Shield HG's
This setup will run circles around any of the guns you have listed. Spend $50 bucks more for a night and day weapon.
C4
No, I missed those 2 threads, but I have read a thousand others, like the one I listed. Yes, there are differences, I agree; however, is mitigation cheaper still? I believe so.
thopkins22
09-04-08, 14:05
I see no consensus. Maybe it is too early to really judge the durability of the Bushmaster (last few years). Hell, the plastic is not better, the barrel may last a few rounds longer (I doubt it on hbl)? The gun at the range is not a "story" I have seen and fired the weapon. I just do not believe a Colt is that much better or will be more durable
Consensus amongst AR owners? Of course not, nor will there ever be. I don't question whether or not 1 Bushmaster can make it to 30,000 without many problems. Will 500? 1000? I think it's fair to say that the companies who build to higher standards will turn out fewer lemons in that same run of rifle. Especially if the guns are going to be run hard.
I think you CAN however find consensus amongst the better known firearm trainers in regards to which guns fail more consistently. Do Colts go down? Obviously they do. With the regularity that many of the lesser brands do? No way.
Edit....listen to Grant. Those threads he posted made things very clear for me.
I agree with you 100%. However, when you talk to people at Bushmaster that make the guns (ie, Jim Eden), you see a different picture. For one thing:
Bushmaster is currently using the deeper feed ramps in the barrel extensions and receivers on all of our models and not just the M4 type barrels.
This should be mentioned. Also, go to their web site and see that the bolt carriers machined of high quality gun steel - chrome lined for smooth bolt functioning and long life. They manufacture to mil. spec. or better, and magnetic particle inspect.
I just think you should investigate (like I did) before you buy. If you want to spend more then ok; however, IMHO a Bushmaster will probably out last you. Do a few upgrades on bolt & buffer and is as good as a Colt.
Come on, if there were big problems with Bushmaster, you would read it on Police Forums by the score. How many Police departments use Bushmaster? Our large city does, and I shoot with many of them at the range.
No, I missed those 2 threads, but I have read a thousand others, like the one I listed. Yes, there are differences, I agree; however, is mitigation cheaper still? I believe so.
Read those two threads first. Real eye openers.
C4
I agree with you 100%. However, when you talk to people at Bushmaster that make the guns (ie, Jim Eden), you see a different picture. For one thing:
Bushmaster is currently using the deeper feed ramps in the barrel extensions and receivers on all of our models and not just the M4 type barrels.
This should be mentioned. Also, go to their web site and see that the bolt carriers machined of high quality gun steel - chrome lined for smooth bolt functioning and long life. They manufacture to mil. spec. or better, and magnetic particle inspect.
Interesting. Do you know what "high quality gun steel" is? Are you aware of what the US GOVT TDP calls out for BCG's and how they are to be made? Just as an FYI to you, BM does not do a lot of the things the TDP requires. So if you are not following the BASELINE .Gov standard (which should be considered the lowest quality that is acceptable in a fighting weapon) then what are you getting? Not quality, that is for certain.
I just think you should investigate (like I did) before you buy. If you want to spend more then ok; however, IMHO a Bushmaster will probably out last you. Do a few upgrades on bolt & buffer and is as good as a Colt.
I think if you believe what you are reading on the BM website, you should have done a little more research. And no, a few upgrades to the BM does make it a Colt or an LMT or a BCM or a Noveske.
Come on, if there were big problems with Bushmaster, you would read it on Police Forums by the score. How many Police departments use Bushmaster? Our large city does, and I shoot with many of them at the range.
First, police forums are a horrible place to get good info on guns. Why? Because they generally never shoot them! The local Sheriff's dept get exactly 61rds a rear to shoot. Remember that all weapon perform 100% sitting in the trunk of the cruiser. ;)
C4
Before posting any more, make sure to read these threads:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13532
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642
C4
Personally I will take the advice of someone who "Shoots all these guns with/without his buddies, and works on ALL these guns, and builds these guns for the public to purchase" and have NEVER heard or read anything negative about HIM, OVER "Someone who just shoots with his buddies, and believes ADVERTISING OF A LARGE COMPANY and the local Police Dept, and the erronet. It sounds like the later did NOT do enough research.
Personally I will take the advice of someone who "Shoots all these guns with/without his buddies, and works on ALL these guns, and builds these guns for the public to purchase" and have NEVER heard or read anything negative about HIM, OVER "Someone who just shoots with his buddies, and believes ADVERTISING OF A LARGE COMPANY and the local Police Dept, and the erronet. It sounds like the later did NOT do enough research.
LOL, funny you say that. My experience/knowledge gets called into question all the time by people that barely know which end of the gun the bullet comes out. I always ask them what they do for a living and how it compares against what I do for a living. :cool:
C4
Yes, those are good posts that I have not seen. Moreover, gramps injection that I research more is kind of strange. Where else can you research, besides, forums, internet, gun magazines, gunsmiths and shooters? Anyway, discounting that nonsense, I do see the problems. However, can you raise a Bushmaster to tier 1? In sum, extractor upgrade kit (BCM), H buffer (BCM) and have the castle nut & bolt carrier staked. Am I there yet?
Thank you for your patience, we are all still learning about one thing or another.
Unless you must buy local, I don't see why the preoccupation with buying BM. By the time you "fix it up," you could have bought a BCM with the money and used the time expended in training.
Yes, those are good posts that I have not seen. Moreover, gramps injection that I research more is kind of strange. Where else can you research, besides, forums, internet, gun magazines, gunsmiths and shooters?
The errornet is GENERALLY the worst place to learn about AR's and their quality. The reason is that most people have ZERO idea what they are even talking about. M4C tries to put a stop to ignorant posts on AR's, but some still get through. Gun mags are also the WORST place for real info on guns. Gunsmiths the work on a lot of AR's and know what the .Gov standard is, can be a good sourse of info. My personal choice to get info on a gun is from someone like Larry Vickers. He sees more guns in a year (running or not running) than most anyone I know.
Anyway, discounting that nonsense, I do see the problems. However, can you raise a Bushmaster to tier 1? In sum, extractor upgrade kit (BCM), H buffer (BCM) and have the castle nut & bolt carrier staked. Am I there yet?
Thank you for your patience, we are all still learning about one thing or another.
You cannot make a BM a tier 1 AR. The reason is that the barrel steel does not meet the spec. They also do not do HPT/MP on their bolt and barrels.
Can you make a BM better? Sure can (as I did in my BM thread).
C4
Bushmaster barrels are not milspec? I did not know this fact.
Lonestar.45
09-04-08, 15:54
This thread sure got off track.
What is a good AR for "around" $850?
I think several options have been mentioned that are better than BM.
I have two BM's. They're fine for what I use them for. However, for $850 one can do better if you shop around. (BCM or LMT Uppers with LMT BCG's on Stag lowers as I said earlier comes to mind).
Bushmaster barrels are not milspec? I did not know this fact.
Dude! There have been more than a few threads on that subject alone. Their barrel steel does not meet or exceed the TDP specification.
Bushmaster barrels are not milspec? I did not know this fact.
Correct.
C4
This thread sure got off track.
What is a good AR for "around" $850?
I think several options have been mentioned that are better than BM.
I have two BM's. They're fine for what I use them for. However, for $850 one can do better if you shop around. (BCM or LMT Uppers with LMT BCG's on Stag lowers as I said earlier comes to mind).
.357sigger
I don't think you'll find too many people here that won't recommend saving a bit more money for a quality product (myself included). Does he have to have it NOW? Turn him on to the forum and let him make the decision for himself.
Regards,
This thread sure got off track.
What is a good AR for "around" $850?
I think several options have been mentioned that are better than BM.
I have two BM's. They're fine for what I use them for. However, for $850 one can do better if you shop around. (BCM or LMT Uppers with LMT BCG's on Stag lowers as I said earlier comes to mind).
My choices for complete rifles would be these at various price levels:
$900 the Charles Daly Defense M4 Law enforcement carbine (model CDDM4E16) = http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=109201563
$1089 an LMT SPM16: https://policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=294_16_304&products_id=6025&osCsid=mghm3ceeo1c9ombn00i070mvn3
$1279 - Colt LE6920 - https://policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=294_16_236&products_id=5635&osCsid=mghm3ceeo1c9ombn00i070mvn3
$1375 - Noveske N4 Basic - http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1021
There are lots of places to buy these so search around and don't only look at price, but also the dealers reputation.
Remember911
09-07-08, 11:14
Be aware that the link you posted to is one of CMMG's "bargain" rifles. 1/9 twist, WASP coating, etc. Considerably different from the example I PMed you.
They put together a nice quality AR, with tons of customizable options, but the wait times are ridiculous. Something along the lines of 1 to 3 months depending on the configuration.
Yes that is just what it is a BB gun and my bet is the buis is put togethere backwards This gun should list for about $750.00 max not to kill a sale but you would be much better off with one of the cust guns out there. ;)
crusader377
09-07-08, 21:40
I was sort of in the same boat a month ago. I had a little more to spend but I was trying to keep my M4 purchase in the $900 to $1000. I was mainly looking at factory built carbines. After researching on this forum along with reading other information I came down to a shortlist between a Charles Daly M4 or M4LE, ADS, or a S&W MP 15. Although all are excellent rifles, I finally purchased a Charles Daly M4LE because it is the closest to the Mil-spec Colts and I had alot of confidence that they would stand behind their product. I bought my Charles Daly for about $940.
I'm not as experienced with the M4 as many of the other forum members but I would advise your friend to at least budget another $50 to $100 because the quality and options of factory build rifles improves considerably from $850 to $900 or $950.
Moreover, gramps injection that I research more is kind of strange. Where else can you research, besides, forums, internet, gun magazines, gunsmiths and shooters?
I'm Sorry if I offended you, that was definitely NOT my intention. Those are all good places; however I feel it is best to research a lot of magazine writer’s reputations and how much/far they are willing to go to do their own research, before believing everything they say.
As for ME, I will NEVER have enough research or knowledge; I will always have a LOT MORE TO LEARN. I do a lot of reading and will look at the reputation of the people writing on these forums and ect. then try to form my opinion with a little commonsense.
The problem with internet research is that you never really know who is on the other end. All too often people simply recommend what they own, never having owned (or often even fired) anything else.
People need to qualify their opinions. Saying "I have an XYZ and it has functioned flawlessly" is a completely worthless statement in and of itself. As a "scientist" you should know this.
(as a side note, the term "flawlessly" grates on my nerves like no other. It is a completely meaningless term without a whole ton of qualifiers. I can buy a firearm, fire one shot through it, and proclaim it "flawless". Similarly, "fit and finish" is usually pronounced by folks that have no idea how the thing should fit or what kind of finish it should have.)
Before anyone believes anything posted on the internet, they should seek out the other posts by the person posting to see if they have ANY idea what they are talking about. Most often they do not.
Of course, most posts asking for advice are made with forgone conclusions and an agenda. What they really should say is "I've only got $800 to spend, and the guy at the gunshop that only has xyz carbine in stock told me it's 'cause he only stocks xyz because it's the best and he will sell me one for $750 even though he has them listed at $1k so I went ahead and bought it and now I want everyone to justify my purchase after the fact and tell me what a great deal I got."
Anyone looking to buy an M4-pattern carbine for training/defensive use should read the writeup that precedes the chart, figure out which of those features are important to them, and then review the chart to find a carbine that has the features they want and fits within their budget.
That thread on thefiringline of so-called "knowledgeable people" is so full of garbage information I wouldn't even know where to begin. I bet if someone dropped The Chart in that mix they'd all have a coronary.
As to the original question at hand...
I had avoided this thread as there really didn't seem to be any reason to add to the melee.
However, my suggestion is to let him stick to his budget and get a S&M M&P15. I've even seen them at gunshows for $900, which leads me to believe that they can be talked down to $850. Stay away from the OR or "optics ready" version with no front sight.
If he has a few more dollars to spend, and can be talked "up", then the Charles Daly deserves a look.
I rarely push that anyone buying a first of anything build their own, even from upper, lower, and BCG. I suggest it once, and if they show resistance I move on to factory rifles. There's no convincing someone that it is easier than they think.
IMHO, it's better to get a rifle in the guy's hands and get him out there shooting than it is to totally put him off by telling him he has to pony up another $150 to even pretend to be in the game. That's the kind of thinking that puts so many people off of 1911s as well when they're told that if they want one they have to wait 5 years and spend $5k with some custom 'smith.
The M&P will be more than adequate for 99% of users, and the small issues that it may have (other than the barrel twist, which is also a non-issue for most) can be taken care of as time goes on.
short of building one,the ADS at $799.99 is had to beat ,all you realy need to do is stake the gas key and if you buy it from Grant he goe's through the rifle and makes every thing is right. he may be a couple bucks more ,but it is well worth it to have him do what he does.:D
I own a CMMG M4LE and for the money it is worth every penny. I have shot countless rounds through mine w/o a hitch. The gun does have the WASP coating on the outside of the entire gun and inside the barrel which is nice for the outside because all the metal parts are the same black color shade. Get over the chrome-lined barrels. They are worth it if you do not plan on cleaning your gun often, or if you shoot full auto or use cheap ammo such as wolf. Some people claim chrome-lined barrels are less accurate. The WASP barrel will last just fine as long as you keep it clean. After research I found the CMMG makes this model entirely in house and it is not one of their bargin-bin rifles which may have a CMMG upper and a DPMS lower or other mixed matched parts. And unlike some of the bargin-bin rifles CMMG offers are lifetime warrenty on this model. If your friend can build his own then by all means go that route. I am not saying CMMG makes the best rifle out there either. I have fired Colts, LMTs and Bushy's and they are awesome. But for $300-$400 less and for a 1st time AR you can not beat the CMMG for the price and quality compared to say an Olympic.
As long as those things are just birds. I can't think of anything a shotgun does better than a carbine for home defense purposes.
Zombies.
;)
Remember911
09-11-08, 18:21
I own a CMMG M4LE and for the money it is worth every penny. I have shot countless rounds through mine w/o a hitch. The gun does have the WASP coating on the outside of the entire gun and inside the barrel which is nice for the outside because all the metal parts are the same black color shade. Get over the chrome-lined barrels. They are worth it if you do not plan on cleaning your gun often, or if you shoot full auto or use cheap ammo such as wolf. Some people claim chrome-lined barrels are less accurate. The WASP barrel will last just fine as long as you keep it clean. After research I found the CMMG makes this model entirely in house and it is not one of their bargin-bin rifles which may have a CMMG upper and a DPMS lower or other mixed matched parts. And unlike some of the bargin-bin rifles CMMG offers are lifetime warrenty on this model. If your friend can build his own then by all means go that route. I am not saying CMMG makes the best rifle out there either. I have fired Colts, LMTs and Bushy's and they are awesome. But for $300-$400 less and for a 1st time AR you can not beat the CMMG for the price and quality compared to say an Olympic.
What is your long term XEP with wasp it is to new to say? I had 5 of them come through my shop and they were junk peep sight put in backwards, and one came with a uesd B&C. I had to fix the sights and replace the B&C befor sending them to customer. As for as color they look blue and not black. If you are going to spend that kind of $ go with Stag. :D
Stag makes a fine gun, slightly higher priced than the CMMG. I like the appearance of the WASP on my gun. It is jet black not blue on mine. Everyone that has seen it at the range so far has asked who makes that gun and how much does it cost, when I tell them they are shocked, they say they expected it to be more. As far as long long term expectations of the barrel I agree it is too early to tell. But as far as I am concerned as long as you take good care of it and clean it after each use it should last long enough for me. CMMG does say do not use steel cased ammo such as wolf through a WASP barrel. The CMMG is my first AR and not my last for sure, I want to save and get a colt. Sorry to here about you peep sight issues and the B&C issue. I do have a question, many people including a gunshop owner and gun instructor have told me chrome lining in the barrel effects accuracy. My question is how?
Remember911
09-11-08, 20:11
I am glad yours is a good one. Just remmember some of what you say weighs heavy,and there needs to be more to learn about wasp. As far as chrome it has a small effect on accuracy Unless you are driving tacks. I would not give up my CMMG 10.3 that I put together using a Stag lefty upper. Look I am not out to put them down I just think you can get a better deal with Stag.
That gun that he is looking at is what they sold as a BB gun, and now call it somthing else using thier lowers. :rolleyes: . Looks like I did not get to your ? but I feel chrome is something you get or you do'nt get for what ever reason. Some would say it has a effect and some would say it will not. I like it for the easy of cleaning.
I agree with you on WASP and I hope for my sake it lasts a long time. As far as ease of cleaning I have not owned a chrome-lined AR so I am not qualified to compare, all I know is mine cleans up easy using solvent and a bore snake. Funny thing is I went to my local gun shop to order a flat-top Stag. The salesmen could have placed that order and probably made some extra $$ since the Stag was costs more $$$. He showed me the CMMG and I loved the finish, it all matched and wasn't 2 or 3 shades of black. He said they sold a couple of others and those customers were happy. I still intend on getting a Stag in the future. Lets just hope that after the election we can still get AR's and ammo.
FWIW, if it comes down to Stag vs. CMMG, Stags are 1:9 and CMMG's are 1:7. Also, you get a choice of barrel profile with CMMG. I'm not qualified to say which is better in terms of QC. My CMMG 16" LW middy with CTR was $775, earlier this year. If I had known Noveske would be just another month, I would certainly have paid the extra $100 or whatever.
FWIW, if it comes down to Stag vs. CMMG, Stags are 1:9 and CMMG's are 1:7. Also, you get a choice of barrel profile with CMMG. I'm not qualified to say which is better in terms of QC. My CMMG 16" LW middy with CTR was $775, earlier this year. If I had known Noveske would be just another month, I would certainly have paid the extra $100 or whatever.
$775?! That's a pretty good deal. Their complete rifles went up approximately $200 within the last month.
.357sigger
09-12-08, 00:06
FWIW, if it comes down to Stag vs. CMMG, Stags are 1:9 and CMMG's are 1:7. Also, you get a choice of barrel profile with CMMG. I'm not qualified to say which is better in terms of QC. My CMMG 16" LW middy with CTR was $775, earlier this year. If I had known Noveske would be just another month, I would certainly have paid the extra $100 or whatever.
Not all CMMG guns are 1:7...and a Noveseke basic carbine is 1375.00...they go up in price from there:(
G&R builds an N4 upper for around $650; add to that a lower for $250 for a savings well under MSRP.
My CMMG was $469 (MSRP 525) for the upper and under $300 for the lower.
Of course the prices have gone up in the last 6 months.
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