View Full Version : ATF Conversation about a Denied Customer
Well had a gentleman come into my shop today to pick up a gun won on a raffle that I handle all the transfers for. Vietnam Vet, goes to the VA and is prescribed Anti-depressants. As I'm waiting on for the NICS E-Check to update from Researching(which is a good indication of a DELAY typically) he states in conversation that he no longer is allowed to have a CCW because of his Anti-depressants and that he's only ever bought guns from non-dealers.
Needless to say, the NICS comes back DENY. I give him the pamphlet to fill out for the appeal process and he goes his merry way.
30 min later the local field office calls wanting a copy of the 4473...... 30 MINUTES LATER!!!
I let them know all the info the customer informed me of and they were very curious about him then.
Moral of the story..... DON'T LIE ON THE 4473!
Well had a gentleman come into my shop today to pick up a gun won on a raffle that I handle all the transfers for. Vietnam Vet, goes to the VA and is prescribed Anti-depressants. As I'm waiting on for the NICS E-Check to update from Researching(which is a good indication of a DELAY typically) he states in conversation that he no longer is allowed to have a CCW because of his Anti-depressants and that he's only ever bought guns from non-dealers.
Needless to say, the NICS comes back DENY. I give him the pamphlet to fill out for the appeal process and he goes his merry way.
30 min later the local field office calls wanting a copy of the 4473...... 30 MINUTES LATER!!!
I let them know all the info the customer informed me of and they were very curious about him then.
Moral of the story..... DON'T LIE ON THE 4473!
Or go to the VA....
I'm of two minds here:
On one hand it could be a guy railroaded by the VA
On the other hand he could have had some severe "adjustment issues" in younger days and got himself felonized or considered mentally unfit.
F. Scott Fitzgerald said "Show me a hero, and I'll write you a tragedy".
Hope he doesn't get jammed up
I'm of two minds here:
You had "two minds" in another thread also. So if I've done my math correctly, you're now up to four minds. This, I believe, may constitute a multiple personality disorder.
Careful what you post on the internet, you might be stripped of your rights to possess a firearm too.
[emoji14]
Wonder what he really had going on? Seems a lot of times the ATF really doesn't give a shit about denials, in their mind that means the system worked.
Wonder what he really had going on? Seems a lot of times the ATF really doesn't give a shit about denials, in their mind that means the system worked.
Pure speculation but what if he wasn't meant to be out and free?
Like he was meant to be confined. Which would suck.
You win a free gun now the Man is looking for you.
Anti-depressants don't prevent you from purchasing a firearm...
BoringGuy45
07-28-16, 13:52
I question how truthful this guy was. I've never heard of anyone being denied for simply taking medication. There's probably more to his story than he was telling you.
I can't tell you how many times I had someone who got to a question that made them hesitate, and I tell them if the answer is "yes" they can't buy the gun. All of a sudden, that turns into "Uh, actually, now that I think about it, I'm not 100 percent sure it was a felony..." or "Well yeah, I was involuntarily committed, but I was told that because it was a long time ago, I should be good to go..." or "Yeah, it was a stupid DV thing, but she started it!"
I'm thinking there is a lot more to this story than being told.
Well had a gentleman come into my shop today to pick up a gun won on a raffle that I handle all the transfers for. Vietnam Vet, goes to the VA and is prescribed Anti-depressants. As I'm waiting on for the NICS E-Check to update from Researching(which is a good indication of a DELAY typically) he states in conversation that he no longer is allowed to have a CCW because of his Anti-depressants and that he's only ever bought guns from non-dealers.
Needless to say, the NICS comes back DENY. I give him the pamphlet to fill out for the appeal process and he goes his merry way.
30 min later the local field office calls wanting a copy of the 4473...... 30 MINUTES LATER!!!
I let them know all the info the customer informed me of and they were very curious about him then.
Moral of the story..... DON'T LIE ON THE 4473!
What was the lie he told on the 4473?
What was the lie he told on the 4473?
Probably being adjudicated mentally defective (question 11f).
Probably being adjudicated mentally defective (question 11f).
Based on what?
Nothing in OP story suggests he lied or was a prohibited person.
Digital_Damage
07-28-16, 15:39
mentally defective
or
Dishonorably discharged would be my guess
...
I'm assuming dishonorably discharged or lied about being a felon. Having stated he's never bought guns from a licensed dealer, ever and the fact that the State of Indiana revoked his Carry Permit tells me there is something else going on.
I doubt DD. He's (ostensibly) getting VA care.
Probably picked up a felony or a domestic somewhere. Perhaps has an active restraining order.
Eurodriver
07-28-16, 18:15
Based on what?
Nothing in OP story suggests he lied or was a prohibited person.
well he was denied, so....had to be something.
Based on what?
Nothing in OP story suggests he lied or was a prohibited person.
Based on the fact that he started discussing his psychiatric history with a guy running a gun store. That is prima facie evidence that someone is so stupid as to be mentally defective. I wouldn't trust the gun advice from most gun store clerks (present company excluded), much less their psychotherapy.
Thanks for the vote of confidence lol!
The guy honestly didn't seem "off". Was one of the genuine kinda older vets who was very out going, friendly liked to talk guns and saw my EMS uniform hanging up in the back area and thanked me for my public service as he views it as the same as military service, same with police and fire. I have a feeling he either put false info on his 4473 or its the fact he is a Vet that uses the VA for anti-depressants and if thats the case its Bullshit. Either way, I personally know my local field office agents, the head of which is actually a former Sheriff Deputy who was my dad's shift partner for 10 years in the 80's and he wouldn't bullshit with me.
I dunno. You can see a shrink and buy a gun.
Adjudicated means a judge was involved. Someone saying they see a shrink doesn't mean anything.
I'm thinking he:
beat his old lady
or
got popped on a felony
OR maybe he was locked up in the bughouse. Like, by court ordered.
I dunno. I wasn't there
Dude just needs to join a Mexican drug cartel. They only take the best and brightest, and the ATT will even provide the tats for free courtesy of the generous taxpayer.
MountainRaven
07-28-16, 20:46
Or maybe they confused him with someone else.
It's not like it would be the first time someone has been denied for being given a name too close to some felon douchebag.
If the ATF called that quickly, it means probably he's a felon. I've seen it before only on a state level. In VA the state runs the BG check. If they pop a denial because of a prior felony, LEO shows up as soon as possible. Then ask questions. Mainly if he handled any of the firearms. As we all know, felons cannot touch firearms. Seeing as how he was doing a background check, I'll assume he handled the firearm. Which is a big no no. He will probably be arrested.
I could be wrong, but I don't think so. You'll likely never see this guy again.
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Averageman
07-29-16, 03:01
How often do these guys get arrested?
How often do these guys get arrested?
Very rarely....almost every case I have ever heard of a prohibited person being arrested was due to some outstanding warrant, and it was the local police.
SomeOtherGuy
07-29-16, 08:28
Or maybe they confused him with someone else.
It's not like it would be the first time someone has been denied for being given a name too close to some felon douchebag.
This. There's a ton of jumping-to-conclusion here. Maybe the guy has the same name as some watch-list mideast terrorist (even if that's "John Smith" or something equally WASP). Give the ATF their info, let them figure it out. Hope for the guy's sake it's a mixup, and figure he'll get what he deserves if it isn't.
How often do these guys get arrested?
A few years out of date (2010), but here are some facts on NICS. Less than 2% of checks result in denial, and at least a third of those are reversed. Looks like only a handful of denials ever result in an arrest.
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/bcft10st.pdf
The ATF agents I've known personally were too busy building criminal cases on gang members in Chicago and sending armed robbers to federal prison on federal charges. Quite frankly, I wouldn't have the huevos to work undercover like one of them did most of his career. He did mention to me once that he wasn't much concerned but the golf ball launcher I had made for my son and I to play with was actually a firearm and that I ought not use it when other folks were around. Maybe a different breed.
Reality is, I think there are something like 5000 employees total for the ATF, and I would guess most of them are paper pushers. So they really don't have time to do much at all. On the other hand, I don't want to be the one case used to make the example either...
Averageman
07-29-16, 14:24
Reality is, I think there are something like 5000 employees total for the ATF, and I would guess most of them are paper pushers. So they really don't have time to do much at all. On the other hand, I don't want to be the one case used to make the example either...
I can understand being understaffed, but we live in a remarkable time, all you have to do is pick up the phone.
I'm of the opinion if you have all of these Laws and to few agents to show up when someone is breaking a big one, maybe you just have too many Laws? I'm realy not sure why a local LEO couldn't show up and take the information and process the arrest.
I'm kind of back and forth with Felon's having guns, but why have the Law if no one is going to enforce it?
Again, often times ATF agents will say a denial means the system works, and that is enough for them.
Needless to say, the NICS comes back DENY. I give him the pamphlet to fill out for the appeal process and he goes his merry way. 30 min later the local field office calls wanting a copy of the 4473...... 30 MINUTES LATER!!! I let them know all the info the customer informed me of and they were very curious about him then.
It may well be an innocent error, but given the times we live in and all of the shooting of LEO recently, I am glad they are checking this guy out.
Just curious, can you tell us what he was trying to pick up or is that TMIFTI?
He was in to pick up a GSG STG-44 in 22lr. You know, a terrible scary assault machine gun
He was in to pick up a GSG STG-44 in 22lr. You know, a terrible scary assault machine gun
Since you still got it, I'll take it off your hands. [emoji6]
mentally defective
or
Dishonorably discharged would be my guess
...
I don't think he would be at the VA with a DD.
well he was denied, so....had to be something.
Based on the fact that he started discussing his psychiatric history with a guy running a gun store. That is prima facie evidence that someone is so stupid as to be mentally defective. I wouldn't trust the gun advice from most gun store clerks (present company excluded), much less their psychotherapy.
I agree he's got issues talking to the salesperson about his mental health, loss of his license to carry.and that he only buys guns off the books.
I can understand being understaffed, but we live in a remarkable time, all you have to do is pick up the phone.
I'm of the opinion if you have all of these Laws and to few agents to show up when someone is breaking a big one, maybe you just have too many Laws? I'm realy not sure why a local LEO couldn't show up and take the information and process the arrest.
I'm kind of back and forth with Felon's having guns, but why have the Law if no one is going to enforce it?
It might not have been a violation of state law. I have been called a few times to a LGS when a person with a warrant has tried to buy a gun.
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