View Full Version : Barrel threaded out of extension.
In the process of installing a new muzzle device with a crush washer using the tighten/loosen/tighten again method, the device stopped turning about 90* from timed. As I attempted to back it off again I felt the entire barrel twitch. Thinking it didn't feel like the muzzle device moved I pulled a little more and the barrel moved again. Now I knew something was up. After removing the handguard, the gas block and tube, and the barrel nut I removed the barrel from the receiver. No receiver damage and the index pin was perfect in the extension. I held the extension in one hand and proceeded to unscrew the barrel from the extension by hand. I know this is BAD. My question is how bad is it? It was purchased as a complete upper and I haven't been able to contact the builder due to their being closed tonight by the time this all happened. I am looking for information on what my options are from those of you who have much more experience. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
headspace is now screwed. Gotta send it back.
I was figuring that. I just sent a message to the builder letting them know what happened and that I'm hoping they replace the barrel or better yet a refund.
I was figuring that. I just sent a message to the builder letting them know what happened and that I'm hoping they replace the barrel or better yet a refund.
how was the reciver secured, block, clamshell, or reaction rod??
they may claim improper modification
was the rifle new or have you shot it?
you may need to explain what you did and how.
i hope you get it figured out.
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
Secured in a clamshell vice block around the receiver with the bolt and charge handle in place. The upper is over 2 years old.
Let me guess, Radical Firearms or Diamondback?
Let me guess, Radical Firearms or Diamondback?
To my knowledge neither one. Obviously if the new barrel(if they offer me one) is of the same quality I would much prefer the refund and shop for my own.
To my knowledge neither one. Obviously if the new barrel(if they offer me one) is of the same quality I would much prefer the refund and shop for my own.
Where did you get the barrel? Is it melonited?
To answer your original question about "how bad is it?", that barrel is now a paperweight.
The bare minimum resolution is replacement, NOT repair (reinstallation of the extension). The better resolution is a return and full refund.
now i feel lucky/happy my aac upper didnt have a problem when i got the rockset infused fh off with no issues.
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Secured in a clamshell vice block around the receiver with the bolt and charge handle in place. The upper is over 2 years old.
I like to use barrel vise jaws when installing attachments to the muzzle. If you are concerned about marking the barrel, you can wrap the barrel with a layer of masking tape or position the barrel so the vise jaws grab the barrel in an area covered by handguards.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/barrel-tools/ar-15-m16-barrel-vise-jaws-prod12470.aspx
To answer your original question about "how bad is it?", that barrel is now a paperweight.
The bare minimum resolution is replacement, NOT repair (reinstallation of the extension). The better resolution is a return and full refund.
My thoughts exactly, especially now that I know this barrel is toast. Thanks
HelloLarry
07-30-16, 07:52
I had a similar thing happen. Sent it back and was installing the barrel again and the extension came loose again.
The barrel is now $400 junk. :(
I wondered why I had weird changed in windage and elevation. Now I know.
My thoughts exactly, especially now that I know this barrel is toast. Thanks
So where did you get the barrel? And is it melonited?
I had a similar thing happen. Sent it back and was installing the barrel again and the extension came loose again.
The barrel is now $400 junk. :(
I wondered why I had weird changed in windage and elevation. Now I know.
Were you installing a muzzle device? How did you secure the barrel?
HelloLarry
07-30-16, 08:35
Yes, I was installing the muzzle break. I just secured the barrel in the receiver. No barrel blocks.
It didn't take much pressure, and irrespective of how you secure the barrel during muzzle break install, the BE was not secure enough to be trustworthy. Any pressure to the sight tower in normal handling could potentially do the same thing. I believe that previous changes in W&E were caused by normal handling & bumps to the sight tower.
556BlackRifle
07-30-16, 09:17
OP, after owning this upper for 2 years, you may be fighting an uphill battle with the manufacturer on getting a refund or replacement - but I wish you the best of luck.
Quick question, was the upper receiver damaged at all in this process? Was there damage to the face / pin engagement notch? Pictures would be helpful.
I'm also curious who the barrel manufacturer and builder are..... Please keep us up to date.
ColtSeavers
07-30-16, 09:36
Please at least let us know if the barrel is melonited and if the extension is melonited as well if you are uncomfortable naming the company directly.
OP- were you using a torque wrench?
Barrel extensions are torqued at a MINIMUM of 120 ft./lbs on the average to the barrel. I have a Hardened Arms barrel donated to my Box O' Shame where the barrel extension loosened during the removal of a muzzle device. The barrel was Melonited along with the extension.
If it came loose during a muzzle device removal/installation then there was something wrong.
what are you guys talking about?!.. good luck man
Sent from my SM-Note4
OP, after owning this upper for 2 years, you may be fighting an uphill battle with the manufacturer on getting a refund or replacement - but I wish you the best of luck.
Quick question, was the upper receiver damaged at all in this process? Was there damage to the face / pin engagement notch? Pictures would be helpful.
I'm also curious who the barrel manufacturer and builder are..... Please keep us up to date.
The upper receiver and alignment pin are both perfect. The barrel simply threaded out of the extension. Updates will occur when I hear from the builder.
Barrel extensions are torqued at a MINIMUM of 120 ft./lbs on the average to the barrel. I have a Hardened Arms barrel donated to my Box O' Shame where the barrel extension loosened during the removal of a muzzle device. The barrel was Melonited along with the extension.
If it came loose during a muzzle device removal/installation then there was something wrong.
Thank you! That was my thought too.
HelloLarry
07-31-16, 10:27
Bad things happen when you try to control headspace and gas hole alignment with the barrel extension.
The only barrel extension I have ever had come loose was a cheap $99 barrel that had the barrel extension and barrel melonited separately and them assembled. It still took a goodly amount of force, but that is the only instance I have ever had. Melonite is an excellent finish when used properly though!
I just got off the phone with the builder and I have a RMA shipping label in hand from them to ship the barrel back. Whether I get a new barrel or a refund for it is yet to be determined, but at least it is going in the right direction.
Bad things happen when you try to control headspace and gas hole alignment with the barrel extension.
please explain another way to do it in an AR15 style weapon? The OP even states that the alignment pin didnt shear(im thinking it did or it at least moved or it was VERY short and not installed correctly to begin with).
Im thinking the millions upon millions(possibly billions) of barrels made for the AR15 platform that have performed the task just fine. There are a hand full of issues(mostly traced back to improper install/removal procedures of the barrel or accessories) and suddenly its a horrible way to do things.
please explain another way to do it in an AR15 style weapon? The OP even states that the alignment pin didnt shear(im thinking it did or it at least moved or it was VERY short and not installed correctly to begin with).
Im thinking the millions upon millions(possibly billions) of barrels made for the AR15 platform that have performed the task just fine. There are a hand full of issues(mostly traced back to improper install/removal procedures of the barrel or accessories) and suddenly its a horrible way to do things.
I believe what he meant was that once the port is drilled, there's are no do-overs with the barrel extension. Trying to reinstall the extension is a recipe for trouble.
please explain another way to do it in an AR15 style weapon? The OP even states that the alignment pin didnt shear(im thinking it did or it at least moved or it was VERY short and not installed correctly to begin with).
Im thinking the millions upon millions(possibly billions) of barrels made for the AR15 platform that have performed the task just fine. There are a hand full of issues(mostly traced back to improper install/removal procedures of the barrel or accessories) and suddenly its a horrible way to do things.
Before the barrel goes back I'm posting pictures for all to look over.
40750
40749
40748
I would like to see the barrel with the extension completely removed, if you are comfortable doing that, if not, I understand.
Just because the pin didnt break off from force against the receiver, doesnt mean it didnt break off lower down or was short to begin with and never really engaged the threads.
Before the barrel goes back I'm posting pictures for all to look over.
40750
40749
40748
Upper receiver looks good. Can you tell if the alignment pin ever contacted the barrel threads?
Also, since you've been given an RMA, can you tell us where the barrel came from now?
Upper receiver looks good. Can you tell if the alignment pin ever contacted the barrel threads?
Also, since you've been given an RMA, can you tell us where the barrel came from now?
By the looks of it the alignment pin never touched the barrel threads. See below. As of right now I still don't know who made the barrel, but its on the to do list.
40753
40752
40751
By the looks of it the alignment pin never touched the barrel threads. See below. As of right now I still don't know who made the barrel, but its on the to do list.
40753
40752
40751
Thanks. You've referred to the "builder" several times. Is this a factory upper from a known company?
You've contacted them and they've issued an RMA, so stating where it came from is not an issue as far as the rules go.
HelloLarry
08-01-16, 15:24
I believe what he meant was that once the port is drilled, there's are no do-overs with the barrel extension. Trying to reinstall the extension is a recipe for trouble.
That's right, Dawg. The proper procedure is to install the BE, set headspace and then locate the gas port based on that. Trying to do it the other way around..... just doesn't work.
That's right, Dawg. The proper procedure is to install the BE, set headspace and then locate the gas port based on that. Trying to do it the other way around..... just doesn't work.
I would ask Krieger how they do it because their gas ports are always centered in a land not a random location like most barrels. That says to me that they locate the gas port and then set head space.
HelloLarry
08-02-16, 07:57
I would ask Krieger how they do it because their gas ports are always centered in a land not a random location like most barrels. That says to me that they locate the gas port and then set head space.
They may do it with a "target", but keep in mind they are also running the lathe that sets the shoulder for the BE and the reamer that sets chamber depth. Once the barrel has been set up once, you don't have that luxury. You can't pull a BE out of a box and expect it to fit. I agree though, I'd like to know how they do that. There is a heck of a lot of back-n-forth, round-n-round going on. It's not as simple as it seems at first blush.
ETA: There was a guy at Perry selling precision barrel extensions that were guaranteed to be interchangeable, but unless the barrel was originally set up for one of those, you are out of luck.
Another major manufacturer told me that the barrel extension is torqued to the barrel. Once that is done, the gas port is drilled.
I would ask Krieger how they do it because their gas ports are always centered in a land not a random location like most barrels. That says to me that they locate the gas port and then set head space.
Thanks. You've referred to the "builder" several times. Is this a factory upper from a known company?
You've contacted them and they've issued an RMA, so stating where it came from is not an issue as far as the rules go.
Yes I referred to the builder several times and intentionally left their name out of the discussion pending a resolution of the problem. Resolution happened today. The barrel was part of a complete 300 Blackout upper that I purchased from MAS Defense. I believe it was the owner I spoke with on the phone today and he cited confidentiality of supplier in not saying who made the barrel that came apart. Ok fine, I can deal with that. He wouldn't give me a refund for the cost of the barrel in the complete upper I bought because of my cutting the crush washer off and nicking the rear of the threads, but finally did agree to ship me a new replacement barrel, once again citing supplier confidentiality in not saying who made this new barrel. I emphasized the fact that the barrel unthreaded from the extension BEFORE the crush washer cutting to save my muzzle brake, so in any event the entire barrel was flawed before the damage was done. I have a tracking number for the new barrel that has been shipped and according to USPS it will be here on Monday. I cannot complain about the service I received from MAS Defense. They are taking care of a customer that had a problem with a part they used to build an upper and that is all I can really ask for. A refund would have been gravy. They have been a stand up company for me in this situation and I have no complaints. The only thing I would do differently is to leave the stuck brake on the barrel and let them deal with cutting the crush washer to avoid any controversy the damaged threads caused.
Unfortunately this happens all too often. Look for more of this as the election panic gains full speed.
Unfortunately this happens all too often. Look for more of this as the election panic gains full speed.
kinda like 8 years ago
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Ned Christiansen
08-06-16, 00:29
The one and only way to prevent this is to immobilize the barrel itself-- not via the barrel extension. When you are spinning off a very tight muzzle device and you are clamshelling the upper or Reaction-Rodding the bbl. extension, you risk this result. I have a tool I've been using for this and have been making copies for a few of the traveling-armorer types that have been using my other tools..... but I'm going to offer this tool to the GP once I get a batch done and tally up the costs.
Yes I referred to the builder several times and intentionally left their name out of the discussion pending a resolution of the problem. Resolution happened today. The barrel was part of a complete 300 Blackout upper that I purchased from MAS Defense. I believe it was the owner I spoke with on the phone today and he cited confidentiality of supplier in not saying who made the barrel that came apart. Ok fine, I can deal with that. He wouldn't give me a refund for the cost of the barrel in the complete upper I bought because of my cutting the crush washer off and nicking the rear of the threads, but finally did agree to ship me a new replacement barrel, once again citing supplier confidentiality in not saying who made this new barrel. I emphasized the fact that the barrel unthreaded from the extension BEFORE the crush washer cutting to save my muzzle brake, so in any event the entire barrel was flawed before the damage was done. I have a tracking number for the new barrel that has been shipped and according to USPS it will be here on Monday. I cannot complain about the service I received from MAS Defense. They are taking care of a customer that had a problem with a part they used to build an upper and that is all I can really ask for. A refund would have been gravy. They have been a stand up company for me in this situation and I have no complaints. The only thing I would do differently is to leave the stuck brake on the barrel and let them deal with cutting the crush washer to avoid any controversy the damaged threads caused.
Thanks for the update and congratulations on getting a replacement barrel. I must have missed it earlier, but why did you have to cut the crush washer off?
Thanks for the update and congratulations on getting a replacement barrel. I must have missed it earlier, but why did you have to cut the crush washer off?
The barrel was already loose on the extension so I removed the handguard, gasblock/tube, and barrel nut to completely remove the barrel. With no means of effectively clamping the barrel and not wanting to ship the barrel off to be replaced with the brake on it I got impatient and cut the washer to remove the brake. In hindsight it was probably a mistake but you know what happens when frustration kicks in. I now have the proper tools to deal with tightening it once the new barrel gets here.
The one and only way to prevent this is to immobilize the barrel itself-- not via the barrel extension. When you are spinning off a very tight muzzle device and you are clamshelling the upper or Reaction-Rodding the bbl. extension, you risk this result. I have a tool I've been using for this and have been making copies for a few of the traveling-armorer types that have been using my other tools..... but I'm going to offer this tool to the GP once I get a batch done and tally up the costs.
Very interested. Hope I catch the update. Thanks.
HelloLarry
08-06-16, 10:47
Clamp two 4-6" sections of 2x4 together and drill a 5/8" or 3/4" hole through the middle of the pair lengthwise.
Place one half on each side of your barrel and clamp in a vise. Instant barrel vise.
Ned Christiansen
08-06-16, 12:53
Here’s the one I use. I’ve made several of these over the years, no two look the same as I have been making them from whatever’s around, I think I even made one out of steel….. anyhow it’s been on my list for over a year now to make a batch and offer them, have had the stock here since I put it on the list (I am so optimistic about what I can get done some times). Got it squared up a few months ago….. now I’m back on it.
Anyhow—it will do barrels from just over an inch on down to standard A-1 size, 5/8 diameter. Cap screws thread into a piece of 5/8 round steel that also sticks out one side 1 ¼ or so. The idea is to keep the wrench light and small as possible, so where I might have just left the 5/8 piece long enough to be the handle, I figure whenever you’re doing this there is a bolt carrier around so, it slips over the 5/8 piece as leverage. You can either two-hand the operation or just leave the carrier down on a bench to keep the barrel from moving while you tighten or loosen. I know some might consider it improper to use the carrier this way but it sure is handy and it for sure can take it-- we're not talking mega-torque here, nor impact. I just didn't think it was worth it in toolbox space or weight to have a piece of pipe dedicated to it; worry warts could use an adjustable wrench on the extended, protruding round piece.
I use this tool a lot more for getting off than putting on. My own guns, students’ guns, I’m pretty light-touch on torqueing things on the end of a barrel but as we are getting more suppressors in class I have used this with a strap wrench to get cans on so they won’t come loose.
I just never liked the idea of using the whole gun as a wrench against the wrench getting the flash hider or whatever off—like, pistol grip between the knees style. Never liked it but have done plenty of it, but this is a much better / safer way. Even though I would add, if the barrel comes out of the extension, that’s probably where the problem was and it might have happened all by itself later. What always worried me was shifting the barrel extension from side to side in the upper receiver every time something at the end of the barrel is loosened or tightened. Again, done plenty of that with no apparent bad result but certainly in theory it is not ideal.
What I have drawn up is exactly what is seen here except the ¼-20 cap screws are not counterbored flush. I have been counterboring them so it could also be squeezed in a vise but I have never used mine that way and I don’t think the others have either. Anyway you still could. Screw heads sticking out makes for easier quick-adjust from say a small barrel to a big one, and also lets you hand-tighten the screws down onto the provided 3/16 hex wrench, between the jaws, for storage so you don’t lose the wrench. I also have a step planned on the jaw so it can be a gas tube clamp—for no more trouble that it will take to make the cut it might as well be there. Not sure yet on price, I need to make this batch of ten or twenty to see what I can do.
Hope to have these done by mid September unless I see a squirrel or something.
Note the paper between the tool and the barrel to make sure no aluminum gets scraped onto the barrel.
http://i.imgur.com/Z8tWzpW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lRuWMLU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/abi8hMQ.jpg
Here’s the one I use. I’ve made several of these over the years, no two look the same as I have been making them from whatever’s around, I think I even made one out of steel….. anyhow it’s been on my list for over a year now to make a batch and offer them, have had the stock here since I put it on the list (I am so optimistic about what I can get done some times). Got it squared up a few months ago….. now I’m back on it.
Anyhow—it will do barrels from just over an inch on down to standard A-1 size, 5/8 diameter. Cap screws thread into a piece of 5/8 round steel that also sticks out one side 1 ¼ or so. The idea is to keep the wrench light and small as possible, so where I might have just left the 5/8 piece long enough to be the handle, I figure whenever you’re doing this there is a bolt carrier around so, it slips over the 5/8 piece as leverage. You can either two-hand the operation or just leave the carrier down on a bench to keep the barrel from moving while you tighten or loosen. I know some might consider it improper to use the carrier this way but it sure is handy and it for sure can take it-- we're not talking mega-torque here, nor impact. I just didn't think it was worth it in toolbox space or weight to have a piece of pipe dedicated to it;; worry warts could use an adjustable wrench on the extended, protruding round piece.
I use this tool a lot more for getting off than putting on. My own guns, students’ guns, I’m pretty light-touch on torqueing things on the end of a barrel but as we are getting more suppressors in class I have used this with a strap wrench to get cans on so they won’t come loose.
I just never liked the idea of using the whole gun as a wrench against the wrench getting the flash hider or whatever off—like, pistol grip between the knees style. Never liked it but have done plenty of it but this is a much better / safer way. Even though I would add, if the barrel comes out of the extension, that’s probably where the problem was and it might have happened all by itself later. What always worried me was shifting the barrel extension from side to side in the upper receiver every time something at the end of the barrel is loosened or tightened. Again, done plenty of that with no apparent bad result but certainly in theory it is not ideal.
What I have drawn up is exactly what is seen here except the ¼-20 cap screws are not counterbored it. I have been counterboring them so it could also be squeezed in a vise but I have never used mine that way and I don’t think the others have either. Anyway you still could. Screw heads sticking out makes for easier quick-adjust from say a small barrel to a big one, and also lets you hand-tighten the screws down onto the provided 3/16 hex wrench, between the jaws, for storage so you don’t lose the wrench. I also have a step planned on the jaw so it can be a gas tube clamp—for no more trouble that it will take to make the cut it might as well be there. Not sure yet on price, I need to make this batch of ten or twenty to see what I can do.
Hope to have these done by mid September unless I see a squirrel or something.
Note the paper between the tool and the barrel to make sure no aluminum gets scraped onto the barrel.
http://i.imgur.com/Z8tWzpW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lRuWMLU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/abi8hMQ.jpg
That's some innovation right there! I love that you use a bcg as a handle for leverage haha that's awesome.
Ned Christiansen
08-13-16, 11:28
Back on these and will have them in about a month, probably gonna be $90 or more, $120 or less.
Sparky5019
08-13-16, 14:07
By the looks of it the alignment pin never touched the barrel threads. See below. As of right now I still don't know who made the barrel, but its on the to do list.
40753
40752
40751
I'll admit it's been a while since I've seen a schematic or drawings but if I'm wrong I know IG will correct me...
Once the BE is torqued, I recall it being SOP to set the alignment pin by actually drilling into the threads sit it locked the barrel in place. After that the gas port is drilled.
I remember that making sense to me...but it could have been a hallucination. Lol.
Sparky5019
08-13-16, 14:10
That's some innovation right there! I love that you use a bcg as a handle for leverage haha that's awesome.
I'll take one too. I like your idea for counter leverage! It'll give me the chance to see if I can bend a junk carrier I have sitting around. Lol.
http://i.imgur.com/Z8tWzpW.jpg
That is a good picture.
That is a good picture.
High praise. Wait a minute.... Was that you?
Sparky5019
08-13-16, 19:29
High praise. Wait a minute.... Was that you?
Lol. You beat me to it.
Are you going to post these for sale, or only as word of mouth?
Back on these and will have them in about a month, probably gonna be $90 or more, $120 or less.
Count me in. That's an elegant solution to grabbing a barrel, without taking much space up on the barrel itself. More folks these days are trying to have their rail come right out to the crown.
Ned Christiansen
08-13-16, 23:42
I'll drop a hint on this thread and put them in for sale and on my site.
Stick-- thanks. Coming from you that's big, funny thing, I keep looking at it and saying, that might just be the best technical picture I ever took, what the hell did I do differently....? I think it was jut a matter of a moment of perfect clouding over the sun giving light from every direction. Sony Cybershot 14.1, nothing more. Have up-graded to a bigger and better camera but have not figured out the best way to work it yet.
notorious_ar15
08-15-16, 23:01
Ned, that is pretty awesome.
If this is something I can use on a light weight barrel, then I'm in for one as well...
Ned Christiansen
08-16-16, 10:38
It'll do 5/8", won't do 1/2" but easily could with a little half-tube piece. What diameter are you talking, I'll check it.
daddyusmaximus
08-16-16, 11:14
I was thinking of springing for a reaction rod for my next build, but this looks like a better option. Simple and effective.
titsonritz
08-16-16, 14:32
http://i.imgur.com/Z8tWzpW.jpg
I need one of these. I have a project coming up where the barrel is just out side the rail and my regular barrel clamp vise block is too large to work, this would be perfect. Count me in.
Ned Christiansen
08-16-16, 16:36
It's 1" wide so it works in the majority of situations. Some guns of course have longish rails and shortish barrels. It could be narrowed-up some but I'm gonna leave it at 1" and if somebody must have it narrower, we will cross that bridge at that time.
Glad you guys like it..... batch in progress.....
Ned Christiansen
10-06-16, 20:28
These are ready.
These are ready.
How much? Put me down for one.
BufordTJustice
10-07-16, 10:34
These are ready.
I don't see it yet.
http://www.m-guns.com/index.html
titsonritz
10-07-16, 11:28
These are ready.
So am I. How do I get one?
titsonritz
10-07-16, 11:47
I don't see it yet.
http://www.m-guns.com/index.html
So am I. How do I get one?
New tool The PBR (Portable Barrel "Rench") (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?189326-New-tool-The-PBR-(Portable-Barrel-quot-Rench-quot-))
firefighter37
10-07-16, 11:51
These are ready.
I want one too
BufordTJustice
10-07-16, 13:03
New tool The PBR (Portable Barrel "Rench") (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?189326-New-tool-The-PBR-(Portable-Barrel-quot-Rench-quot-))
THANK YOU SIR!
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