View Full Version : Best melee weapon choices?
After thousands of years of hacking do we have a good idea of what the better edged melee weapons are?
Put another way, you have no gun or its not working, what edged weapon would you like to have against unarmored people who are armed with weapons popular with murderous mobs?
One caveat..a weapon about a yard in length or shorter for easy vehicle storage. This rules out good weapons like spears and other polearms. Nothing that runs on petroleum distillates either. ;)
Machete/Falcion? A bit slow, stab option would be nice
Hand axe? Again slow, more likely to get stuck in bone?
Short cutlass? Mace? Gladius and buckler?
Something easier to train with would be good...I dunno. Ideas?
(PS. Would be great if it could be used from inside to break auto glass. (Side glass)
Outlander Systems
08-06-16, 13:46
http://cdn.instructables.com/FL6/79A9/HAQ39N17/FL679A9HAQ39N17.MEDIUM.jpg
/Endthread
MountainRaven
08-06-16, 13:49
The result of thousands of years of chopping at unarmored (or lightly armored) two-legged monkeys.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l114/odingaard/Scabbards/WP_000285_zps6f7666a2.jpg
ETA: Alternatively, if instinctive use is important - you don't want to train much or you can't, something like this (or a fighting tomahawk - note that most "tactical" tomahawks are not for fighting, they are for making holes in walls and doors - they are heavier than needed and the weight distribution is not ideal for fighting):
http://arms-n-armor.com/images/pole213a_s.jpg
Or something like this, if you want to use both hands on the weapon:
http://1ykhlp2zb5rq1isavr1d6mi5.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/reaver_cleaver_leather_1200.jpg
There are also some good short spears out there, OALs less than a meter, but still very much intended for fighting.
After thousands of years of hacking do we have a good idea of what the better edged melee weapons are?
Put another way, you have no gun or its not working, what edged weapon would you like to have against unarmored people who are armed with weapons popular with murderous mobs?
One caveat..a weapon about a yard in length or shorter for easy vehicle storage. This rules out good weapons like spears and other polearms. Nothing that runs on petroleum distillates either. ;)
Machete/Falcion? A bit slow, stab option would be nice
Hand axe? Again slow, more likely to get stuck in bone?
Short cutlass? Mace? Gladius and buckler?
Something easier to train with would be good...I dunno. Ideas?
(PS. Would be great if it could be used from inside to break auto glass. (Side glass)
There are some pretty mean maces out there and they don't cost as much as quality swords (of which I have a decent collection) and will never need sharpening.
I haven't gotten around to one yet myself but I look from time to time. I'm more of a sword/huge ****ing knife guy though.
ColtSeavers
08-06-16, 14:46
Main hand: Stanley Fatmax Anti Vibe 22oz. 16" claw hammer.
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/9f/9f99e4db-ec3b-4f17-b81c-a7a87b880ed8_400.jpg
Followed by:
Off hand: 7" Hogue EX-F01
http://files.harrispublications.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2011/05/hogue-ex-f01-b.jpg
Have both (stanley claw hammer and lower 7" version of the two knives pictured), would use both.
This. Fast, sharp and perfect length.
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s4/v63/p1622370473-5.jpg
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s9/v17/p1763108673-5.jpg
ColtSeavers
08-06-16, 15:05
Or something like this, if you want to use both hands on the weapon:
http://1ykhlp2zb5rq1isavr1d6mi5.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/reaver_cleaver_leather_1200.jpg
There are also some good short spears out there, OALs less than a meter, but still very much intended for fighting.
Have eyeballed the Reaver Cleaver for some time now. Could never justify buying it, or live down owning it, but it still speaks to me.
after watching some stuff forgot the show about roman swords I kinda want a super high quality roman sword :)
seems like a pretty awesome instrument even by todays standard
besides that a good cane Machete
Have eyeballed the Reaver Cleaver for some time now. Could never justify buying it, or live down owning it, but it still speaks to me.
Yeah, they had a Kopis esque sword for a while that I was tempted on but just couldn't imagine buying from company with that name. They discontinued it anyway.
http://www.flashlightmuseum.com/flashlights/MF01187.jpg
or
http://www.uniontools.com/uploads/images/True%20Temper/products/43106_L_01.JPG
Dead. Damn. Serious.
ColtSeavers
08-06-16, 15:32
Yeah, they had a Kopis esque sword for a while that I was tempted on but just couldn't imagine buying from company with that name. They discontinued it anyway.
Believe it or not, it's not the company name that bothers me, it's just too transparent in it's purpose (apocalypse cool weapon).
http://www.flashlightmuseum.com/flashlights/MF01187.jpg
or
http://www.uniontools.com/uploads/images/True%20Temper/products/43106_L_01.JPG
Dead. Damn. Serious.
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/s/shovele2.jpg
:lol:
crusader377
08-06-16, 16:11
I don't think there is a single best melee weapon. It really depends how you are fighting and who is your opponent and in the larger scope how your respective armies fought. For example the katana used by the Japanese Samurai was a very effective weapon for a individal dual against lightly to medium armored opponents. On the opposite end of the spectrum the combination of the gladius and scutum (heavy rectangular shield) used by the Roman Legionary probably killed more men than any weapon pre-gunpowder but it required a completely different fighting style (See video listed).
Probably the best realistic combat of Romans in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7MYlRzLqD0
That said if I didn't know my opponent I would probably go with a Viking Ulfberht and a Shield. The Ulfberht was of superb quality and was a good cut and thrust weapon at a decent length and maneuverability.
Nova show on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARKcDoOKk0Q
MountainRaven
08-06-16, 16:24
Have eyeballed the Reaver Cleaver for some time now. Could never justify buying it, or live down owning it, but it still speaks to me.
It's one of those weapons that I would carry under a faded, stained, tattered and torn USMC All-Weather Coat in a post-apocalyptic movie along with a Mdl 98 Mauser and a Smith & Wesson 586 or a BHP.
But yeah, I think I would buy their kukri before I would buy the Reaver Cleaver as a practical blade and if I really want something for the End of Days, I'd buy the Albion Jarl I posted or some other viking-age sword repro.
The Arms & Armor Gothic Mace has some appeal for me, as well.
ramairthree
08-06-16, 16:33
Anthropologists that study old bodies and battle areas ( the real kind, physical anthropologists, not the non science social BS ones)
Determined what was pretty effective.
Despite more elaborate moves and showy stuff seen in movies,
Most effective was to hack at the legs then finish the guy off.
Many bodies show evidence of healed slashing wounds they survived.
Far less bodies show evidence of thrusting wounds.
then factor in armor, shields, etc.
No perfect weapon.
Business_Casual
08-06-16, 17:30
German WWII Entrenching Tool, with the side sharpened.
crusader377
08-06-16, 17:40
Anthropologists that study old bodies and battle areas ( the real kind, physical anthropologists, not the non science social BS ones)
Determined what was pretty effective.
Despite more elaborate moves and showy stuff seen in movies,
Most effective was to hack at the legs then finish the guy off.
Many bodies show evidence of healed slashing wounds they survived.
Far less bodies show evidence of thrusting wounds.
then factor in armor, shields, etc.
No perfect weapon.
ramairthree,
There is a good book out on the archaeology on the Battle of Towton in 1461 which was the largest and bloodiest battle in the War of Roses in England. The Economist had a brief summary of some of the findings and I thought you might be interested in the attached article.
http://www.economist.com/node/17722650
Have eyeballed the Reaver Cleaver for some time now. Could never justify buying it, or live down owning it, but it still speaks to me.
Holy Shiite Batman! $375.
Outlander Systems
08-06-16, 18:28
I guarantee you will induce dismemberment with a Gerber/Fiskars brush thinner for the low low price of $37.50.
Machetes are a joke. They're good for small vines and sticker briars.
Gerber. When you absolutely demand an arm and a leg as payment.
If you want to cut some wild-eyed meth-head in twain, nothing else will rival the King Ding-A-Ling:
http://mobileimages.lowes.com/product/converted/049206/049206645417.jpg
Holy Shiite Batman! $375.
ColtSeavers
08-06-16, 19:58
Holy Shiite Batman! $375.
Yeah, I know :(
Hence why I will be using a big'ol claw hammer and big knife.
ramairthree
08-06-16, 20:28
ramairthree,
There is a good book out on the archaeology on the Battle of Towton in 1461 which was the largest and bloodiest battle in the War of Roses in England. The Economist had a brief summary of some of the findings and I thought you might be interested in the attached article.
http://www.economist.com/node/17722650
Brutal!
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-60288712508565_2266_79215414
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-60288712508565_2266_79215414
Where can I buy that?
eightmillimeter
08-06-16, 21:29
Where can I buy that?
At wal mart of course
http://www.walmart.com/ip/LEATHERHEAD-TOOLS-LB-30-Halligan-Bar-High-Carbon-Steel-30-In./40938215?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=122&adid=22222222228028541323&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=m&wl3=61183098129&wl4=pla-96575149689&wl5=9018218&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=101593696&wl11=online&wl12=40938215&wl13=&veh=sem
agree on what most of us know or a regular machete more for trimming brush :)
cane machete though are quite different :)
a bit like a sword the word machete there are so so so many types single and two handed
I guarantee you will induce dismemberment with a Gerber/Fiskars brush thinner for the low low price of $37.50.
Machetes are a joke. They're good for small vines and sticker briars.
Gerber. When you absolutely demand an arm and a leg as payment.
If you want to cut some wild-eyed meth-head in twain, nothing else will rival the King Ding-A-Ling:
http://mobileimages.lowes.com/product/converted/049206/049206645417.jpg
QuickStrike
08-06-16, 22:00
A decent machete is good enough for most unarmored work imo, and will be one of the fastest swinging options. Upgrade to a thinner style kukri if you want something more sturdy.
Get a good carbon/spring steel one and chop it hard against a phone book several times to make sure the tang is strong enough.
Where can I buy that?
Suck up to a firefighter.
Seriously, I'm sure you know, but, just in case: http://www.emergencyresponderproducts.com/halligantools.html
This just screams Zombie slayer to me: https://www.innovationfactory.com/products/truckers-friend
I carry one of these in my bail-out bag: https://www.zoro.com/stanley-forcible-entry-tool-1-pieces-18-in-l-55-121/i/G2015151/?gclid=CNiq8vGprs4CFQsIaQodjLIHPw&gclsrc=aw.ds This is the non-tacti-cool one: https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-55-099-FatMax-Functional-Utility/dp/B000FCGS0Y
(Sorry about the morph to active shooter entry tools)
Thanks, I have a Hooligan tool (I know it is Halligan but disregard the constabulary!) , but that one Steyr posted looks medieval and wicked like we was gonna do some Inquisition mess.
ETA mine is shorter to fit in a duffel type bag and doesn't have the pike. It looks more like what you have. I got it at home depot and it has come in plenty handy over the years.
If you are planning on fighting a mod melee style you are ****ed regardless what you have. If one wants to consider arms combat without firearms, well then it depends on ones training, at least in my opinion and solo you are still ****ed. I'd likely be partial to a Bo, followed by sai, and then knife, but that has most to do with that fact that I have spent years, more than a decade, but not yet decades, working with those tools. If shit really got to wear I was going ancient weapons I;d take a bo with both ends tipped with a spike or spear and go from there. Though I might be hard pressed to not hang a tomahawk somewhere on me because viking and shit.
I will off myself if some Renaissance fair dork bested me based of what he learned from larping in the city park. I have a long bush hook, besides that I have a cheap .22 revolver. F sword fighting.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
At wal mart of course
http://www.walmart.com/ip/LEATHERHEAD-TOOLS-LB-30-Halligan-Bar-High-Carbon-Steel-30-In./40938215?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=122&adid=22222222228028541323&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=m&wl3=61183098129&wl4=pla-96575149689&wl5=9018218&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=101593696&wl11=online&wl12=40938215&wl13=&veh=sem
Better price here at the Public Safety store.
http://www.thepublicsafetystore.com/leatherhead-tools-30-leatherhead-bar-forged-halligan-type.html?kw=leatherhead-tools-30-leatherhead-bar-forged-halligan-type&cmp=YSWFDS&gclid=CjwKEAjwlZa9BRCw7cS66eTxlCkSJAC-ddmwTFqZ7tv2jdgrPsBZq-PoAfTmlV1XCzvOwzS53vGwDhoCf2vw_wcB
If you are planning on fighting a mod melee style you are ****ed regardless what you have. If one wants to consider arms combat without firearms, well then it depends on ones training, at least in my opinion and solo you are still ****ed. I'd likely be partial to a Bo, followed by sai, and then knife, but that has most to do with that fact that I have spent years, more than a decade, but not yet decades, working with those tools. If shit really got to wear I was going ancient weapons I;d take a bo with both ends tipped with a spike or spear and go from there. Though I might be hard pressed to not hang a tomahawk somewhere on me because viking and shit.
I almost went with sai. It always has been one of my favorites.
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10968450_827686287312184_2957903877301412938_n.jpg?oh=3d80a9c9b1247aba4724ff3cbac026b7&oe=5857C355
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10407494_827686270645519_1397371875675583637_n.jpg?oh=dff92cb190e39420d18111a02cbf6c92&oe=581784D0
But honestly my weapon selection really would depend upon how many people I was going to potentially melee with.
It depends on training, if you have armor, if you have a shield, if your threats have armor, and if they have a shield.
Length will save your life, so get the longest weapon that will fit.
Ease of use is important if you don't train a lot, so a rapier is likely out.
In the modern world, no one really walks around with plate armor and a shield isn't likely, so a mace or morning star isn't required.
I'd go with a one handed double edged sword with your one yard length restriction. It just so happens that one of the deadliest weapons in human history fits the bill perfectly.
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii313/larlim/PC%20Mainz%20Gladius/026.jpg
I guarantee you will induce dismemberment with a Gerber/Fiskars brush thinner for the low low price of $37.50.
Machetes are a joke. They're good for small vines and sticker briars.
Gerber. When you absolutely demand an arm and a leg as payment.
If you want to cut some wild-eyed meth-head in twain, nothing else will rival the King Ding-A-Ling:
http://mobileimages.lowes.com/product/converted/049206/049206645417.jpg
I like the looks of this.....not sure if there is a scabbard for it though..Also...it's over 50 inches long
It depends on training, if you have armor, if you have a shield, if your threats have armor, and if they have a shield.
Length will save your life, so get the longest weapon that will fit.
Ease of use is important if you don't train a lot, so a rapier is likely out.
In the modern world, no one really walks around with plate armor and a shield isn't likely, so a mace or morning star isn't required.
I'd go with a one handed double edged sword with your one yard length restriction. It just so happens that one of the deadliest weapons in human history fits the bill perfectly.
Gladius, eh? Yea...some kind of short sword might be the thing. Light, quick, two sharp edges. Gadius, Wakizashi, short cutlass...something like that..hmm..straight blade or curved?
Gladius, eh? Yea...some kind of short sword might be the thing. Light, quick, two sharp edges. Gadius, Wakizashi, short cutlass...something like that..hmm..straight blade or curved?
Straight. Stabbing is far more effective than cutting and works better in close spaces. Curved blades generally don't have double edges either.
I'm also assuming you're not in a bug out situation. If you are, I'd stick with a short axe, like a tomahawk. It'll have much more utility for survival usage and still works as a pretty good weapon.
But with a gladius, just grab one of these https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Police_officer_in_riot_gear.jpg and Roma victor.
Moose-Knuckle
08-07-16, 05:31
This is an easy one . . .
The national game of Ireland is hurling, which dates back to B.C. time. It's essentially a cross between hockey and murder played with what can be best described as an axe handle with a blunt edge. Not to be confused with a shillelagh or Irish fighting stick, adopted when guns were outlawed.
Legal in most US municipalities and available online at places like Amazon. When there is no more room in hell and the dead walk the Earth, I'm reaching for my hurley . . .
https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8713/28821452095_3e558cddea_b.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8760/28716374152_fe5310d626_b.jpg
I'm going with tomahawk or machete both of which I currently have under the back seat of my truck.
This is an easy one . . .
The national game of Ireland is hurling, which dates back to B.C. time. It's essentially a cross between hockey and murder played with what can be best described as an axe handle with a blunt edge. Not to be confused with a shillelagh or Irish fighting stick, adopted when guns were outlawed.
Legal in most US municipalities and available online at places like Amazon. When there is no more room in hell and the dead walk the Earth, I'm reaching for my hurley . . .
At that point you might as well go with Lucille
http://www.dreadcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Lucille-Baseball-Bat-Walking-Dead-01.jpg
http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab160/usmcvet0331/image_zpsy19izcin.jpeg (http://s859.photobucket.com/user/usmcvet0331/media/image_zpsy19izcin.jpeg.html)
Inovation Factory Trucker's Friend:
https://www.innovationfactory.com/products/truckers-friend
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/4c21f375e16a3d7eca1443f49027ae8f.jpg
Stanley FUBAR:
http://www.stanleytools.com/en-us/products/hand-tools/demolition-tools/pry-claw-bars/30-in-fubar-forcible-entry-tool/55-122
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/4a3d0b39159631cb61c6e413885c31cc.jpg
Did you learn nothing from watching Michonne? Sheesh…
A katana is the ONLY way to go here.
This is a great thread lol
After handling some long knives and managing to not damage myself or anything else unintentionally, I decided I want something I can get both hands on.
If the other hand isn't holding a shield it's just being used for balance/in the way. It may as well be doing something useful like helping control the blade.
So, roughly 24 inch blade, under 36 inches overall, two-hand capable, light to medium weight. Good scabbard. Cost? Probably going to cap it at $500 but if something works and is $150 hey, great.
Thanks, this is an enjoyable thread. Trying to avoid politics right now...
I never even though about a halligan tool but I have one laying around somewhere.. Should toss that in the truck
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If it popped of right in front of me, and I had to get in hand what I had on or near me, prob these...
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/3e392ef7d443c671c91eb4ac152c0489.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/f0d63d28b92c142d8bffc4c159ebb368.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/c6354889244dbdd6bff0d7adcad77fa6.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/c9b827e2581f5d33a572f1883fe4528c.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/4f541355452c150cac89a8d039a44285.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If it popped of right in front of me, and I had to get in hand what I had on or near me, prob these...
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/3e392ef7d443c671c91eb4ac152c0489.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/f0d63d28b92c142d8bffc4c159ebb368.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/c6354889244dbdd6bff0d7adcad77fa6.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/c9b827e2581f5d33a572f1883fe4528c.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What is it? It's beautiful
Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
08-07-16, 12:36
Straight. Stabbing is far more effective than cutting and works better in close spaces. Curved blades generally don't have double edges either.
I'm also assuming you're not in a bug out situation. If you are, I'd stick with a short axe, like a tomahawk. It'll have much more utility for survival usage and still works as a pretty good weapon.
But with a gladius, just grab one of these https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Police_officer_in_riot_gear.jpg and Roma victor.
Interestingly, the historical record from duels shows slashing attacks, though less lethal, were more likely to stop an attacker faster than stabbing or thrusting attacks, which were more likely to be lethal but frequently took so long to take effect that both duelists died.
After handling some long knives and managing to not damage myself or anything else unintentionally, I decided I want something I can get both hands on.
If the other hand isn't holding a shield it's just being used for balance/in the way. It may as well be doing something useful like helping control the blade.
So, roughly 24 inch blade, under 36 inches overall, two-hand capable, light to medium weight. Good scabbard. Cost? Probably going to cap it at $500 but if something works and is $150 hey, great.
Thanks, this is an enjoyable thread. Trying to avoid politics right now...
Actually, you can use your support hand for a variety of things, like catching, trapping, controlling the enemy and their arms. If you must fill both hands, one can hold a jacket or blanket (for cloak-and-dagger-style fighting) or use an improvised weapon (use it as a shield or buckler or for rapier-and-dagger or Niten-ichi fighting). And it's much easier to fight with a one-handed weapon if you take significant damage to an arm.
The only real reason to use a two handed weapon is if you have armor or have a two handed spear/pike or a ranged weapon.
MountainRaven
08-07-16, 12:59
The only real reason to use a two handed weapon is if you have armor or have a two handed spear/pike or a ranged weapon.
I could see a longsword - being a sword intended for use with one or two hands - being a benefit, due to its extra reach.
Interestingly, the historical record from duels shows slashing attacks, though less lethal, were more likely to stop an attacker faster than stabbing or thrusting attacks, which were more likely to be lethal but frequently took so long to take effect that both duelists died.
Actually, you can use your support hand for a variety of things, like catching, trapping, controlling the enemy and their arms. If you must fill both hands, one can hold a jacket or blanket (for cloak-and-dagger-style fighting) or use an improvised weapon (use it as a shield or buckler or for rapier-and-dagger or Niten-ichi fighting). And it's much easier to fight with a one-handed weapon if you take significant damage to an arm.
Good points. In the limited knife training I've had I learned that slash attacks were 95% of the focus. The guy I trained with was a highly skilled Filipino and could skin me where I stood by the time I got to my second move. He was just incredible fast and accurate. Great way to learn what you don't know...
But anyway, yes, good points. It should be something that could be wielded with one hand for the reasons you state. (perhaps hand-and-a-half?)
Extra reach would be good. If I ever needed such a weapon I certainly would not be part of a phalanx!
So if the handle is going to be 6-8 inches that means a blade of about 24-28 inches. Can't be too heavy if it's going to one-handed, or least balanced well. At this point I see no reason for two edges, but a useful point would be nice.
I could see a longsword - being a sword intended for use with one or two hands - being a benefit, due to its extra reach.
Long swords only came about when its users had plate armor.
With chain or less armor, a spear wielding fighter will likely beat a longsword wielding fighter.
An arming sword fighter with a shield will also likely beat a long sword wielding fighter if he's without armor.
To be honest, swords in general were rarely the primary weapon of anyone, besides the notable example of the Romans. And they used large shields and one handed thrusting swords.
Long swords only came about when its users had plate armor.
With chain or less armor, a spear wielding fighter will likely beat a longsword wielding fighter.
An arming sword fighter with a shield will also likely beat a long sword wielding fighter if he's without armor.
To be honest, swords in general were rarely the primary weapon of anyone, besides the notable example of the Romans. And they used large shields and one handed thrusting swords.
Even the legionnaires had the Pilum.
Even the legionnaires had the Pilum.
Right, but it wasn't really their primary weapon when they'd chuck one or two before walking in. Unlike the Samurai who were primarily archers and carried a katana as a secondary or even tertiary backup weapon.
Long swords only came about when its users had plate armor.
With chain or less armor, a spear wielding fighter will likely beat a longsword wielding fighter.
An arming sword fighter with a shield will also likely beat a long sword wielding fighter if he's without armor.
To be honest, swords in general were rarely the primary weapon of anyone, besides the notable example of the Romans. And they used large shields and one handed thrusting swords.
I did consider a spear...a bit long for storage..it would be need to be short...wouldn't be able to use it well one-handed. Has "inexpensive" going for it.
I haven't ruled out the axe, but it would need to be a lightweight head with a long edge. Fast handling one-handed 30 inch axe would be okay if represented a cost savings compared to the short sword.
crusader377
08-07-16, 13:17
Long swords only came about when its users had plate armor.
With chain or less armor, a spear wielding fighter will likely beat a longsword wielding fighter.
An arming sword fighter with a shield will also likely beat a long sword wielding fighter if he's without armor.
To be honest, swords in general were rarely the primary weapon of anyone, besides the notable example of the Romans.
You are correct in that long two handed swords only came about because plate armor eliminated the need for a shield. There is very little evidence that true two handed swords were used by anyone prior to the 1300s. Plate armor forced swords to become longer and relatively narrower which strongly favored stabbing.
You are correct in that long two handed swords only came about because plate armor eliminated the need for a shield. There is very little evidence that true two handed swords were used by anyone prior to the 1300s. Plate armor forced swords to become longer and relatively narrower which strongly favored stabbing.
I guess it depends on how you define "2 handed".
Longwords are considered 2 handed swords and appear by 1100. The "true" two handed swords like those used by the landesknechts are Renaissance weapons.
The earliest 2 handed swords were still primarily slashing weapons resembling a larger type X sword. As armor advanced, so did they with stronger tips arriving to counter chain mail becoming prevalent and then in the edge of plate mail evolving into VERY thrust oriented weapons like the type XV, XVI, and XVIII.
As was previously said, a sword was not going to be a first choice against another armored opponent. However, knights were relatively small in number and the bulk of a force would be more lightly armored soldiers and against an unarmored or lightly armored opponent a 2 handed sword is (in my opinion) the most effective weapon. This is why I think they were always so popular, especially considering it would the better weapon to wear when you were not fully armored and just needed an arm for defense but it was unlikely you would encounter another armored foe. Basically, just while you were out and about. 2 handed cut and thrust/dueling swords became very fashionable in the late medieval/early Renaissance.
If I was to encounter someone clad in platemail, my first choice in an arm would be a heavy mace or war hammer.
Against some armed peasants wielding spears and little to no armor I'm taking a Longsword.
Coal Dragger
08-07-16, 13:39
Against an unruly mob I guess I'd take something like a one handed Viking style sword, and a shield if available. The Viking sword is right at the 36" mark, weighs about 2 pounds, and depending on blade style is still great for stabbing but maintains the wide blade needed for good slashing ability.
So I'd hopefully have trained with this set up, and my goal would be to make attacking me so painful and costly that I could break contact. So lots of slashing at their legs etc, which means that longer blade earns it's keep.
MountainRaven
08-07-16, 13:47
Good points. In the limited knife training I've had I learned that slash attacks were 95% of the focus. The guy I trained with was a highly skilled Filipino and could skin me where I stood by the time I got to my second move. He was just incredible fast and accurate. Great way to learn what you don't know...
But anyway, yes, good points. It should be something that could be wielded with one hand for the reasons you state. (perhaps hand-and-a-half?)
Extra reach would be good. If I ever needed such a weapon I certainly would not be part of a phalanx!
So if the handle is going to be 6-8 inches that means a blade of about 24-28 inches. Can't be too heavy if it's going to one-handed, or least balanced well. At this point I see no reason for two edges, but a useful point would be nice.
Falchions were very popular in Europe for a very long time, so there is certainly an argument to be made for a single-edged chopping sword. Nevertheless, a double-edged blade allows one to cut both coming and going and gives one the use of a second edge should the first edge become too damaged to be useful (which would be an awful lot of damage).
Long swords only came about when its users had plate armor.
With chain or less armor, a spear wielding fighter will likely beat a longsword wielding fighter.
An arming sword fighter with a shield will also likely beat a long sword wielding fighter if he's without armor.
To be honest, swords in general were rarely the primary weapon of anyone, besides the notable example of the Romans. And they used large shields and one handed thrusting swords.
That's not entirely true. The earliest longswords developed late in the viking age, during the high mediæval period, likely to give a cavalryman some extra reach with the hilt and pommel extended back not so much to accommodate a second hand as to achieve better balance. At the time, maille would have been the most common armor and even then, it wasn't super common, and these early longswords have blade profiles typical of the single-handed swords of the period, exhibiting wide blades with forward balance points, well suited for chopping, hacking, and slashing.
Once partial plate started making its rounds, then the longsword gained a more triangularly-shaped blade ideal for piercing through maille links, even as battle moved from horseback to foot, and continued to develop more plate, less maille.
Then late in the middle ages, along came the gun and the armor began to gradually come off as the amount of armor needed to stop a bullet gradually became so heavy that you had to be on a horse to be mobile in it. And with the armor protection for your average joe being reduced, blade shapes returned to those more suited for cutting and slashing - and then we get into the Renaissance and the longsword becomes the zweihander and things get a bit ridiculous.
Still, while with two unskilled fighters, the man with a shield and a shorter sword may have an edge against a man with a longsword, one of the Italian renaissance Fechtmeisters (I forget who) once said something to the effect that there is little so effective in defense as a man armed with a two-handed sword. Further, while the sword was chiefly a sidearm (zweihanders excepted), it was a common sidearm because it could be used with techniques for spears, axes, daggers, maces, &c. On the other hand, English Fechtmeister George Silver was fond of the staff as a defensive weapon for many of the same reasons.
For those interested, here's a link to an internetified version of George Silver's Paradoxes of Defence: Link (http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html). (Beware, it was written in 1599 and the English is a bit archaic.)
Averageman
08-07-16, 15:01
An old guy that I used to work with carried 3 foot section on rubber hose plugged on both end and about 1/2 full of BB's. That thing whistled when he swung it.
ColtSeavers
08-07-16, 15:50
I'M still sticking with 'modern mace' big 'ol claw hammer main hand and big@ss knife off hand.
Crushing, piercing, grappling, trapping and blocking covered by main hand.
Slashing and stabbing at openings covered by off hand.
Neither require any real training to use. A claw hammer is actually extremely versatile if you think about it. Putting it in your main hand allows you focus more on it's uses. A large/long knive is perfect for off hand as it's fairly straightforward in it's uses, slash or stab. Dual wielding further insures that you will always have at least one weapon.
Personally not against using a 'sword and board' setup though.
Truth be told, now that I've though about this for awhile, here is my final answer for what I will roll around with in a melee weapon only apocalypse:
Main hand:
18" 25oz. Estwing solid steel Framing Hammer
http://www.estwing.com/img/products/NH_builder_main.jpg
Off hand:
7" Hogue EX-F01 (12" OAL)
https://images.knifecenter.com/thumb/1500x1500/knifecenter/hogue/images/HO35157a.jpg
Armshield/shouldershield (could be used as either)
http://www.defensereview.com/stories/combatbodyarmor/Picture%20012.jpg
https://img1.etsystatic.com/126/0/6915080/il_570xN.876682531_fpcx.jpg
Falchions were very popular in Europe for a very long time, so there is certainly an argument to be made for a single-edged chopping sword. Nevertheless, a double-edged blade allows one to cut both coming and going and gives one the use of a second edge should the first edge become too damaged to be useful (which would be an awful lot of damage).
That's not entirely true. The earliest longswords developed late in the viking age, during the high mediæval period, likely to give a cavalryman some extra reach with the hilt and pommel extended back not so much to accommodate a second hand as to achieve better balance. At the time, maille would have been the most common armor and even then, it wasn't super common, and these early longswords have blade profiles typical of the single-handed swords of the period, exhibiting wide blades with forward balance points, well suited for chopping, hacking, and slashing.
Once partial plate started making its rounds, then the longsword gained a more triangularly-shaped blade ideal for piercing through maille links, even as battle moved from horseback to foot, and continued to develop more plate, less maille.
Then late in the middle ages, along came the gun and the armor began to gradually come off as the amount of armor needed to stop a bullet gradually became so heavy that you had to be on a horse to be mobile in it. And with the armor protection for your average joe being reduced, blade shapes returned to those more suited for cutting and slashing - and then we get into the Renaissance and the longsword becomes the zweihander and things get a bit ridiculous.
Still, while with two unskilled fighters, the man with a shield and a shorter sword may have an edge against a man with a longsword, one of the Italian renaissance Fechtmeisters (I forget who) once said something to the effect that there is little so effective in defense as a man armed with a two-handed sword. Further, while the sword was chiefly a sidearm (zweihanders excepted), it was a common sidearm because it could be used with techniques for spears, axes, daggers, maces, &c. On the other hand, English Fechtmeister George Silver was fond of the staff as a defensive weapon for many of the same reasons.
For those interested, here's a link to an internetified version of George Silver's Paradoxes of Defence: Link (http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html). (Beware, it was written in 1599 and the English is a bit archaic.)
I haven't read all of it yet but thanks for the link! Really interesting! It's like us on here talking about shotgun vs PCC vs rifle vs pistol for HD/AS but instead they are discussing open field (mostly one on one) combat with Rapiers, Pikes, swords, bucklers, etc. Neat.
sevenhelmet
08-07-16, 16:59
All your fancy swordplay...
http://i64.tinypic.com/f51xn7.jpg
But if guns are not an option, I've got knives, a tomahawk in my BOB, and a demolition hammer in my truck.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/0e9247ffb3e8d7021a09a5ba22abf7c6.jpg
It worked for Kahless, it'll work for me.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/68ac62d3d686832ce6fd2ee48417ec55.jpg
MountainRaven
08-07-16, 17:46
Are you going to kill your gods with your bat'leth? I think the mek'leth would be more practical.
:p
sevenhelmet
08-07-16, 17:53
Are you going to kill your gods with your bat'leth? I think the mek'leth would be more practical.
:p
NERDS!!!!!! ;)
Averageman
08-07-16, 17:55
I wonder if anyone has put an edge on one of those arm/shoulder type shields?
The bottom edge having the U wicked sharp might be handy.
I've decided to add a third option.
The Flying Guillotine. As a side note, before anyone freaks, he's not a Nazi. That's a Buddhist Manji.
Go listen to some Wu Tang Clan. They explain it all.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_J4v3xHnHu2Q/RuWxNn7sntI/AAAAAAAAABw/6bUXWjcaiEc/s320/206.jpg
ColtSeavers
08-07-16, 18:23
I wonder if anyone has put an edge on one of those arm/shoulder type shields?
The bottom edge having the U wicked sharp might be handy.
Have never seen edges on them, but have seen spikes and blades.
Examples:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR5Z3xjgk_2ygMyo5s2Sh2ukIZf2q52f_Plg1VquY4sy4zYABxM
ETA:
http://www.ashokaarts.com/img/product_images/image/detail/deccan-patah-9-4042.jpg
Inkslinger
08-07-16, 18:55
I've decided to add a third option.
The Flying Guillotine. As a side note, before anyone freaks, he's not a Nazi. That's a Buddhist Manji.
Go listen to some Wu Tang Clan. They explain it all.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_J4v3xHnHu2Q/RuWxNn7sntI/AAAAAAAAABw/6bUXWjcaiEc/s320/206.jpg
How this move was never nominated for an academy award boggles my mind.
Averageman
08-07-16, 19:06
I've decided to add a third option.
The Flying Guillotine. As a side note, before anyone freaks, he's not a Nazi. That's a Buddhist Manji.
Go listen to some Wu Tang Clan. They explain it all.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_J4v3xHnHu2Q/RuWxNn7sntI/AAAAAAAAABw/6bUXWjcaiEc/s320/206.jpg
As I have gotten older I have found that left to their own my eyebrows would look like that in about six months if I didn't trim them.
How this move was never nominated for an academy award boggles my mind.
Agreed. Right up there with Shogun Assassin (1980).
Inkslinger
08-07-16, 19:35
Agreed. Right up there with Shogun Assassin (1980).
Luckily his son choose the right melee weapon.
wilson1911
08-07-16, 19:36
I've actually been looking for something that could have multiple uses lately. I tend to not live in metro areas, so something like this is what I am leaning towards. It should chop a man, tree, firewood, or debone an animal etc nicely. There are several options to choose from.
http://walkbyfaith777.com/index.html
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-139343521061224/LangetBeardedMedHammerBEMapleAxe640b570.jpg#_ga=1.147441457.740916675.1468455471
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-139343521061224/5LangHawk430x640.jpg#_ga=1.214731281.740916675.1468455471
Averageman
08-07-16, 19:52
I've actually been looking for something that could have multiple uses lately. I tend to not live in metro areas, so something like this is what I am leaning towards. It should chop a man, tree, firewood, or debone an animal etc nicely. There are several options to choose from.
http://walkbyfaith777.com/index.html
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-139343521061224/LangetBeardedMedHammerBEMapleAxe640b570.jpg#_ga=1.147441457.740916675.1468455471
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-139343521061224/5LangHawk430x640.jpg#_ga=1.214731281.740916675.1468455471
I think a Roofing Hammer might be easier for me to explain.
Are you going to kill your gods with your bat'leth? I think the mek'leth would be more practical.
:p
No gods, just those green bloods.
Bat'leth would be my choice. It's a good offensive, and defensive weapon.
I think it would help to make friends with this guy. He does all sorts of awesome Mcgyver stuff for weapons.
https://youtu.be/JrHFxscunOA
With that said, I have watched several videos of guys making throwing star weapons from saw blades. From the videos, I absolutely would not want to be hit with one.
I guarantee you will induce dismemberment with a Gerber/Fiskars brush thinner for the low low price of $37.50.
Machetes are a joke. They're good for small vines and sticker briars.
Gerber. When you absolutely demand an arm and a leg as payment.
If you want to cut some wild-eyed meth-head in twain, nothing else will rival the King Ding-A-Ling:
http://mobileimages.lowes.com/product/converted/049206/049206645417.jpg
Machetes are a joke? 700,000 Rawandans say otherwise.
(But I do like my brush trimmer)
Sent from 80ms in the future
Jimmy
What is the consensus on Cold Steel swords? Specifically their bastard sword.
https://www.coldsteel.com/products/swords/maa-hand-and-a-half-sword.html
Machetes are a joke? 700,000 Rawandans say otherwise.
(But I do like my brush trimmer)
Sent from 80ms in the future
Jimmy
Depends on the machete. A nice heavy bolo would be decent, a Wal Mart special not so much.
Also in Africa machete's are effective when you have roving bands of tribes attacking unarmed villages en mass.
What is it? It's beautiful
Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk
Thanks. A couple of customs from a small maker named Larson Forge and Finish. My Dad made the leather for me. Fits pretty well in the small of the back...
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160808/52296f28e7cc23ff763fe813bc9d2242.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Moose-Knuckle
08-08-16, 05:17
Speaking of Cold Steel, I've always been fond of their variety of such devices.
Been eyeing one of their war clubs for awhile, grew fond of the concept ever since I watched Chingachgook hurl his war club into an enemy during a counter assault then obliterate his son's killer at the end of The Last of the Mohicans.
https://www.coldsteel.com/products/specialty/gunstock-war-club.html
From Will 1400
"For a sword, the best bang for the buck I've found is Windlass Steelcraft's Cobra Steel line which is basically one-handed blades like the kindjal, falcata, and xiphos with rubber handle scales. They are decent carbon steel, come reasonably sharp, come with scabbards that have an integral belt loop, and are of the proper proportion and balance for swords of those types. I personally own the Lakonia (Spartan-style Xiphos and it's got the chopping presence of most machetes with the agility and point presence to be a kind of pre-Gladius sword in terms of handling. They also cost less than $100 and for the price are a great deal for a small one-handed sword"
A katana or battle axe.
I'm partial to an axe just cause my inner viking thinks their cool, but a katana may be more practical.
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert, but I do listen to Amon Amarth.
I will go with a short sword.
But after the election panic. (Unless I find just what I want at a good price!) Still spending money on ammo for now. (Buy it cheap!)
Thank you guys very much for the info!
MountainRaven
08-09-16, 20:25
A katana or battle axe.
I'm partial to an axe just cause my inner viking thinks their cool, but a katana may be more practical.
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert, but I do listen to Amon Amarth.
The axe is probably the more practical. Unless you just want something for slaying bodies.
for fun the scenario you mentioned ?
not a melee but bow and arrow of variety would be also on my have list :)
After thousands of years of hacking do we have a good idea of what the better edged melee weapons are?
Put another way, you have no gun or its not working, what edged weapon would you like to have against unarmored people who are armed with weapons popular with murderous mobs?
One caveat..a weapon about a yard in length or shorter for easy vehicle storage. This rules out good weapons like spears and other polearms. Nothing that runs on petroleum distillates either. ;)
Machete/Falcion? A bit slow, stab option would be nice
Hand axe? Again slow, more likely to get stuck in bone?
Short cutlass? Mace? Gladius and buckler?
Something easier to train with would be good...I dunno. Ideas?
(PS. Would be great if it could be used from inside to break auto glass. (Side glass)
TheNegativeOne
08-09-16, 20:37
Im gonna go with this.
https://youtu.be/_hfLZozBVpM
sevenhelmet
08-09-16, 20:46
Do all you guys with swords really think they'll be useful for vehicle carry against a mob, as outlined in the OP?
I'm sticking with knife and axe/tomahawk as good options, especially since they have uses as everyday tools and a melee is a last ditch eventuality, and not one that I would expect to go well for anyone, including me. (unless I'm getting bum rushed by a lone skinny meth head or something). I have absolutely no visions of being like Rick Grimes, Jason Bourne, or Rambo (and hell, even they used projectile weapons on a regular basis). It would probably more closely resemble a monkey @#$ing a football while trying not to cut itself with something sharp. I'm in decent shape, calm under pressure, and a fairly good shot, but I'm not skilled in hand-to-hand anything.
Yeah, I probably need to take some classes, or something.
daddyusmaximus
08-09-16, 21:37
This. Fast, sharp and perfect length.
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s4/v63/p1622370473-5.jpg
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s9/v17/p1763108673-5.jpg
Big +1 on the katana. I love mine. I'm no expert with it, but i'm still dangerous with it. That sucker is fast, strong, and sharp.
daddyusmaximus
08-09-16, 21:45
If it popped of right in front of me, and I had to get in hand what I had on or near me, prob these...
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/3e392ef7d443c671c91eb4ac152c0489.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/f0d63d28b92c142d8bffc4c159ebb368.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/c6354889244dbdd6bff0d7adcad77fa6.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/c9b827e2581f5d33a572f1883fe4528c.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160807/4f541355452c150cac89a8d039a44285.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks. A couple of customs from a small maker named Larson Forge and Finish. My Dad made the leather for me. Fits pretty well in the small of the back...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Very nice, and I love the leather. So, does your dad feel like making another one like that?
I suggest the humble spear. It provides standoff distance and requires minimal training and strength to employ. Deep puncture wounds are the way to go. Spears are also very affordable compared to swords, etc.
Very nice, and I love the leather. So, does your dad feel like making another one like that?
I could ask...but unless it's a knife I own or could buy one like, he'd need to have it to make the sheath. PM with the details if you want...
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