View Full Version : Reducing Recoil in a Colt M4/LE6920
First off, I'm very new to long guns and M4's/AR's. In saying that, I bought my first one a few months ago and have about 300 or so rounds through it. My buddy bought a Rock River Arms and we went out shooting yesterday. I tried his and there was barely any recoil. You shoot mine and there's some kickback from it.
Now his has a heavier barrel profile compared to mine, and overall, it's a bit heaver in weight. I have a feeling though that the buffer spring has something to do with reducing the recoil.
If I wanted to reduce the recoil on mine (The stock M4 I have), what would I need to swap out? What is the pro/con to changing the buffer spring?
Thanks!
Fatorangecat
08-07-16, 08:57
Vltor A5 buffer
Personally I don't have an issue with the recoil with my LE6920, it's lighter than my Mossberg 590a1 12g shotgun and my 7.62x54r Mosin. You could also try a BCM compensator / muzzle break.
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Schmalkald
08-07-16, 09:08
How are you holding it and shooting it?
If you are shooting it by "blading," that is presenting yourself toward your target by standing sideways, and "chicken winging" it as you hold it, you are not managing recoil as effectively as you would if you stand "squared up" to the target, feet shoulder-width apart, lean from the waist, nose over toes, and shooting it that way. Flex at the knees a bit in the stance. You'll find all sorts of debate about "stiff arming" your support hand arm and "c" clamping it on the front of the rifle. It makes for great static shooting, but start moving and you'll stiff arm will transmit all movement directly to the rifle.
So, before you start adding things to the muzzle, I'd strongly suggest you work on the mechanics of how you are shooting the rifle, and spend some good time shooting it and just get used to the feel of shooting the AR. You may find you hardly even notice recoil once you get a feel for it.
This video demonstrates what I'm talking about. You might find it helpful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSmKPbNsyio
Fatorangecat
08-07-16, 09:09
I don't have a problem with the recoil of a 6920 either but the A5 system has more benefits than just felt recoil, that has been hashed out here in much detail so I will spare the repetition.
Meta-Prometheus
08-07-16, 10:14
The Colt 6920 has a carbine length gas system with a 16 inch barrel. It has more gas coming back due to the increased dwell time of having the 16 inch barrel.
Does your buddies RRA have a mid-length gas system? On a 16 inch barrel, a mid-length gas system will shoot quite smoothly.
My personal suggestion would be to swap the recoil spring out as opposed to getting the $215 Vltor A5 kit (if it's even available). I swapped the recoil spring on my older LE 6920 with the Sprinco white spring. However I guess they now suggest to get their extra power red spring for the newer Colt 6920's that don't have the LE markings. Anyways, it definitely helped out with felt recoil. That extra 1.5 inches of dwell time on 16 inch barrels with carbine gas systems really is noticeable compared to gas systems that have the appropriate barrel lengths.
Here is the link to Sprinco's AR springs: http://www.sprinco.com/tactical.html
I don't own a Colt, but I have a build using the carbine gas system and it's felt recoil is extremely soft staying square on target. I'll make suggestions based off it. First thing I'd do is change the birdcage to the Griffen Armament Hammer Comp. If that didn't satisfy you I'd change out the recoil spring for a blue Springco. If less is still more change the buffer to a Spikes T3. You may not get lockback everytime with the T3 AND the increased spring strength. My build uses a T3 and white Springco but you already have an H2 and upgrading to a much better spring is needed imo as well as cheaper than going with the T3. By all means begin at the muzzle.
The Colt 6920 has a carbine length gas system with a 16 inch barrel. It has more gas coming back due to the increased dwell time of having the 16 inch barrel.
Does your buddies RRA have a mid-length gas system? On a 16 inch barrel, a mid-length gas system will shoot quite smoothly.
My personal suggestion would be to swap the recoil spring out as opposed to getting the $215 Vltor A5 kit (if it's even available). I swapped the recoil spring on my older LE 6920 with the Sprinco white spring. However I guess they now suggest to get their extra power red spring for the newer Colt 6920's that don't have the LE markings. Anyways, it definitely helped out with felt recoil. That extra 1.5 inches of dwell time on 16 inch barrels with carbine gas systems really is noticeable compared to gas systems that have the appropriate barrel lengths.
Here is the link to Sprinco's AR springs: http://www.sprinco.com/tactical.html
I'll have to get some more information about his AR. I know it was built by Rock River Arms, but I'm unsure of the model. I also know he has a different bird cage than I do and his barrel is a lot heaver.
Thanks for the suggestion and I'll get some specs on the one he has and see what I can do to mine. Not that my recoil is horrible, but after shooting, I do have a red mark for a day or two.
As for not holding it correctly, I think I am....because he shot a few rounds through mine and was surprised at the recoil compared to his. He also has extensive experience with the m4, so he knows what he's doing as far as holding it goes.
Thanks!!
The barrel on my build is the same profile as yours. It's a Daniel Defense however so it may have a smaller gas port. Never seen Colt's port.
Shoot 50 rounds of 300 WM from a Remington 700. Shoot your 6920. No more recoil problem.
Shoot 50 rounds of 300 WM from a Remington 700. Shoot your 6920. No more recoil problem.
I was holding off commenting but you nailed it. Regardless of whether one AR happens to recoil a bit more than another, I've never handled one that was ever even the slightest problem with recoil. The heavier barrel of the OP's friend's AR likely has more to do with it than anything else, but if he wants to reduce felt recoil a better muzzle brake will likely provide the most satisfactory results. I've never been a fan of changing out recoil springs (or in this case buffers) in a firearm because without a lot of supplemental testing you never know if you're negatively impacting reliability. Colt arrived at the "H" buffer after a lot of taxpayer money had been spent trying to get the M4 Carbine to run well with its shorter gas system. I'm not sure I could improve on what they did without spending a lot of my own money on ammo and range time proving that whatever changes I made were actually beneficial.
OP- Sounds like your first step may be to refine your technique. Do you have a good instructor or mentor nearby to help?
After that, you could look at modifications to the gun. Know that gas guns need a balance, and anything you change has a side effect. Also know that you'll be dicking with a widely accepted benchmark for reliable ARs. Your next thread on your 6920 is likely to be a troubleshooting one.
The Spike's buffer is not comparable to a correct style buffer. Advocating a different buffer that creates a malfunction isn't smart.
I don't own a Colt, but I have a build using the carbine gas system and it's felt recoil is extremely soft staying square on target. I'll make suggestions based off it. First thing I'd do is change the birdcage to the Griffen Armament Hammer Comp. If that didn't satisfy you I'd change out the recoil spring for a blue Springco. If less is still more change the buffer to a Spikes T3. You may not get lockback everytime with the T3 AND the increased spring strength. My build uses a T3 and white Springco but you already have an H2 and upgrading to a much better spring is needed imo as well as cheaper than going with the T3. By all means begin at the muzzle.
First off, I highly recommend you disregard most of what has been said here. It sounds like there were potentially several variables in play. Many of the Rock Rivers I have seen were considerably heavier than a 6920. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was at least a pound.
You could have been shooting a middy or even a rifle. Admittedly you state you are very new and most likely wouldn't know the difference. He could have also been shooting different ammo, etc..
My suggestion and that of ST911 might be to get some competent instruction first to help you out.
I'll have to get some more information about his AR. I know it was built by Rock River Arms, but I'm unsure of the model. I also know he has a different bird cage than I do and his barrel is a lot heaver.
Thanks for the suggestion and I'll get some specs on the one he has and see what I can do to mine. Not that my recoil is horrible, but after shooting, I do have a red mark for a day or two.
As for not holding it correctly, I think I am....because he shot a few rounds through mine and was surprised at the recoil compared to his. He also has extensive experience with the m4, so he knows what he's doing as far as holding it goes.
Thanks!!
a muzzle brake, a heavier buffer or a better stance.
Shoot 50 rounds of 300 WM from a Remington 700. Shoot your 6920. No more recoil problem.
True,
if you shoot 9mm and feel recoil, shoot some +P, or .40 or .45, then go back shoot those 9mm, you feel no recoil at all. LOL
NWcityguy2
08-07-16, 14:57
With 223 it isn't so much about the recoil, as it is controlling the muzzle. Almost anyone can shoot an AR as fast as it will allow without being hurt by the recoil, but if you don't control the muzzle and keep it on target, you're just spraying ammunition. Part of controlling the muzzle is technique, and it can be taken to the next level with swapping out components. However, some of the component changes will make the rifle unsuitable for self defense. So that is something to think about.
The two big problems I see with newer shooters when it comes to technique is an incorrect hold and incorrect grip. Holding a rifle loosely against your body will allow it to jump around a lot as it is fired. ARs with A2 birdcages already have a muzzle down effect when shooting, and this will only make it worse. It also could be causing that red mark on your shoulder you are talking about, because an AR isn't going to do that when properly held. The second problem is an incorrect grip, and by that I mean holding it with a weak hand and bent elbow. Look into what is called a C-clamp grip. It is incredibly well documented online, so I'll leave it as that but add that it is superior to a traditional grip in almost all shooting situations.
When it comes to changing out components to make the gun have less felt recoil, the most effective change can be at the muzzle. The A2 pushes the muzzle down slightly and does almost nothing to reduce felt recoil. So there are basically two ways to improve on it. There is the BCM Gunfighters comp (own it and have several thousand rounds through it), which is very muzzle neutral, in that it pushes the gun straight back instead of up or down. It doesn't do much for recoil, just a bit more than an A2, but doesn't increase side concussion very much either, which is important for using the gun in a self-defense situation, and even more so indoors. Then there is a PWS FCS556, which is muzzle neutral, does better with recoil, but has more side concussion as well. After that there are the Gamer's comps, which I use on my competition ARs (about 15k rounds through them), but don't recommend for self-defense. They will likely cause permanent hearing loss if used indoors.
If your Colt has a standard buffer spring and H2 buffer, I'd recommend you just leave that be. It's not what I use, but you could throw money at that without noticing much of a difference.
Ultimately, you want to improve your technique as much as possible, because that will stay with you the longest. Don't be the guy looking for a mechanical solution to every problem. There are things that make an AR a better shooter, but without proper technique you'll have problems being consistent with even the best of equipment.
Sterling Archer
08-07-16, 16:25
TTAG has two articles where they tested the effectiveness of a bunch of muzzle devices and through their testing found the M4-72 Severe Duty comp by Precision Armament to be most effective in reducing recoil.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/11/jeremy-s/556-muzzle-device-shootout/
Schmalkald
08-07-16, 17:07
TTAG has two articles where they tested the effectiveness of a bunch of muzzle devices and through their testing found the M4-72 Severe Duty comp by Precision Armament to be most effective in reducing recoil.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/11/jeremy-s/556-muzzle-device-shootout/
Here's the most recent TTAG testing ... Precision Armament "won" in this test also.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/jeremy-s/ar-15-muzzle-brake-shootout-2/
I also shoot .50 cal muzzleloaders and a marlin guide gun in 45-70. Honestly I barely notice that this thing fired. Not sure what the issue could be, is your buddy's rifle 5.56 or lower pressure 223? That said I have a buddy who has a number of nlack guns in 223 and I hardly feel the either. Best of luck.
As said, proper form is the big one. Don't look into harware fixes until you are proficient. Proper instruction is going to help a lot.
Stock should rest in the meaty part of your shoulder, and holt it tight against the shoulder. I keep my shoulders slightly forward to absorb recoil. Doing this Ive shot boxes of 3" 12 ga slugs without any pain or redness, and especially with an ar, I notice faster followups (sights back on target quicker).
Good luck, be safe, and have fun.
Shooting form is important and muzzle devices can help, but the most important difference between the two rifles affecting recoil is as IG pointed out- Weight. The RR rifle is noticeably heavier than the 6920. Extra weight soaks up a lot of free recoil.
3176312, you are going to have to accept the fact your lighter 6920 is going to kick harder than your buddy's heavier RR. It has nothing to do with "dwell time" or buffers or gas port diameters because the 6920 is properly tuned and Colt all the details right. It's just a simple fact of physics that, all else being equal, a heavier rifle has less recoil than a lighter rifle. You can even look up the formula and crunch the number for yourself
I doubt I'd swap out the buffer system on a stock Colt for the Vltor A5. If I was building from scratch? Yes. A5! I'd, first, make sure the gun has the correct H2 buffer. I definitely DO NOT like deviating from the USGI SS spring.
Depending on the ammo you run, you could go up one buffer heavier... but as stated, you risk the possibility of causing reliability issues.
The Colt 6920 has a carbine length gas system with a 16 inch barrel. It has more gas coming back due to the increased dwell time of having the 16 inch barrel.
Does your buddies RRA have a mid-length gas system? On a 16 inch barrel, a mid-length gas system will shoot quite smoothly.
My personal suggestion would be to swap the recoil spring out as opposed to getting the $215 Vltor A5 kit (if it's even available). I swapped the recoil spring on my older LE 6920 with the Sprinco white spring. However I guess they now suggest to get their extra power red spring for the newer Colt 6920's that don't have the LE markings. Anyways, it definitely helped out with felt recoil. That extra 1.5 inches of dwell time on 16 inch barrels with carbine gas systems really is noticeable compared to gas systems that have the appropriate barrel lengths.
Here is the link to Sprinco's AR springs: http://www.sprinco.com/tactical.html
This^^^. (The CAR v. Middy part).
My 6920 compared to my friends RRA middy is night and day. Hell, his even seem quieter somehow.
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From cheapest to most expensive:
Use weaker ammo (PMC Bronze), -$0.10/rd
Improve your stance, free
Get a heavier spring (Springco Blue), ~$20
Get a heavier buffer (H2 or 3), ~$35
Get a stock with rubber padding on the back, ~$50
Install a muzzle brake or compensator, ~$100-150
Install a full A5 kit, ~$200
Install a heavier barrel with a mid-length gas system, ~$250-300
Hang lights and lasers and grips off the front of your rail, ~$allthemoney
From most effective to least effective (in my opinion):
Install a muzzle brake or compensator
Improve your stance
Use weaker ammo
Full A5 kit
Spring and/or buffer change
Barrel and gas system change
Change your stock
Hang more things on your rifle to make it heavier
Shoot 50 rounds of 300 WM from a Remington 700. Shoot your 6920. No more recoil problem.
^^This^^ Or a 12 gauge.
Shoot 50 rounds of 300 WM from a Remington 700. Shoot your 6920. No more recoil problem.
^^This^^ Or a 12 gauge.
The OP didn't say the recoil was unmanageable nor that it was painful.
He just noted that there was more recoil than his friend's rifle and wants to reduce it.
No need to compare caliber sizes.
First off, I'm very new to long guns and M4's/AR's. In saying that, I bought my first one a few months ago and have about 300 or so rounds through it. My buddy bought a Rock River Arms and we went out shooting yesterday. I tried his and there was barely any recoil. You shoot mine and there's some kickback from it.
Now his has a heavier barrel profile compared to mine, and overall, it's a bit heaver in weight. I have a feeling though that the buffer spring has something to do with reducing the recoil.
If I wanted to reduce the recoil on mine (The stock M4 I have), what would I need to swap out? What is the pro/con to changing the buffer spring?
Thanks!
Your rifle does not need any adjustments.
for zero recoil, try the ALG single chamber brake. it works incredibly well at least for me.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XALGSCB&name=ALG+SCB+Single+Chamber+Muzzle+Brake&groupid=579
i use one for 400 yards so that my sight picture isn't disturbed during recoil. with the ALG SCB i can stay sighted on a 4" steel plate at 400 yards AFTER the shot breaks. pretty cool. the downside is this comes at quite a price in terms of blast and concusion. it is straight up unpleasant to be anywhere in the lateral vicinity of the rifle during shooting.
The Spike's buffer is not comparable to a correct style buffer. Advocating a different buffer that creates a malfunction isn't smart.
Someone should tell Spikes and all their thrilled customers that. I have no preference myself. Just know my build runs like Forrest out of leg braces...
OP another suggestion I highly agree with is getting a recoil pad or padded stock. That really does change the feel of recoil despite not actually affecting factory set-up. It's a smart choice.
Your rifle needs nothing! Muzzle break at the most, if you must! Messing with the spring/buffer, NOPE! you'll most likely screw up the reliability. Be extremely happy that you knew enough to buy one of the best quality AR15 carbines that you can get. Shoot the hell out of it and post up some pics of that bad bitch!
Here's the 6920 i just bought. After years of reading about how great the almighty 6920 is, on this forum, I'm stoked!
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c25/Dirknar77/20160722_193340_zpsv4tyfidu.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/user/Dirknar77/media/20160722_193340_zpsv4tyfidu.jpg.html)
Someone should tell Spikes and all their thrilled customers that.
Spikes thrilled customers are Arfcom idiots. Their goofball buffer has been quantified as sub-optimal. Although it may not instantly bring a gun to it's knees, it is a visually less efficient reduction to bolt bounce.
It is less than ideal for that, agreed. Has benefits and a cool spider though. Might be what scares the bolt.
a cool spider though
I always thought it was Darth Vader
Carne Frio
08-08-16, 23:53
MAKO has a recoil reducing M4 type stock. It fits on both mil and commercial buffer tubes.
I use mine on a .308, but it will fit on the Colt 6920; I know because I tried it.
http://www.nokick.com/Mako_GL_Shock_Recoil_Reducing_AR_15_stock_Black_p/mako%20gl-shock-bk.htm
No, because it's been proven. Just because some mouthbreather thinks it cool or popular and doesn't want to listen to reason, I could care less.
Someone should tell Spikes and all their thrilled customers that. I have no preference myself. Just know my build runs like Forrest out of leg braces...
OP another suggestion I highly agree with is getting a recoil pad or padded stock. That really does change the feel of recoil despite not actually affecting factory set-up. It's a smart choice.
agreed that screwing around with buffers and buffer springs to control recoil is pretty silly. it's playing a stupid game and will likely win stupid prizes such as stoppages.
a 5.56 round creates a ton of pressure and it's all coming out the muzzle. if you want the rifle to recoil a certain way, just divert the muzzle blast appropriately. there are more muzzle devices than a human could test in their lifetime. most of them are purchased for asthetics. there are some very basic designs that work incredibly well for recoil mitigation. of course these come at quite a price in terms of having the gas blown out sideways and up instead of forward.
of all the devices i've tested, it seems the ALG single chamber brake has the most impressive recoil mitigation on a 5.56. it also has the most impressive blast even on a 16" barrel. God have mercy on anyone who attaches an ALG SCB to an SBR. Ugh no thanks.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-09-16, 08:53
Surefire MB 556... No recoil
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Spin Drift
08-09-16, 09:02
You can break the Law, harder to break the Laws of Physics.
For about $150, get an EFAB.
For $300, get a MAMS.
If it is still beating your azz, stick with a 10/22.
Renegade04
08-09-16, 09:14
I am going to be the devil's advocate here. Why is it that so many guys find it necessary to reduce the recoil of a .223/5.56 AR carbine? When you compare the recoil of an 5.56 AR carbine to a .308 AR, there is virtually no recoil in the 5.56 AR. Unless you are building a precision AR or a 3-Gun AR, recoil should not be an issue. It seems like a lot of guys have turned in their man-card. Go shoot a .308, a 7mm, or even a .30-06 and then shoot your 5.56 AR carbine. Your AR will seem like a BB gun at that point.
Inkslinger
08-09-16, 09:22
I am going to be the devil's advocate here. Why is it that so many guys find it necessary to reduce the recoil of a .223/5.56 AR carbine? When you compare the recoil of an 5.56 AR carbine to a .308 AR, there is virtually no recoil in the 5.56 AR. Unless you are building a precision AR or a 3-Gun AR, recoil should not be an issue. It seems like a lot of guys have turned in their man-card. Go shoot a .308, a 7mm, or even a .30-06 and then shoot your 5.56 AR carbine. Your AR will seem like a BB gun at that point.
I think it's adding hardware to fix a software problem. The muzzle devices are the crutch that helps cover up poor technique. But I guess it's cheaper to add a MD than it is to shoot more.
There's also a limit to what shooting technique can do to improve your shot-to-shot splits or your ability to see the trace/impact at distance, which Renegade04 pointed out with the precision/3-gun comment.
Some people also have bad shoulders or other reasons they can't shoot with the generally accepted proper technique.
Just because some calibers have more recoil doesn't mean that anyone who wants to reduce .223/5.56 recoil is somehow less than a man.
If everything was all about doing the bare minimum, we'd all be using 20" ARs with iron sights, carry handles, and fixed stocks. Or maybe we'd be using M1 Garands.
titsonritz
08-09-16, 10:48
a cool spider though.
That is just hilarious.
QuickStrike
08-09-16, 11:46
I installed an A5 buffer on mine for:
More stock positions
flatter muzzle rise
was going to replace the end plate with a QD socket one anyway, might as well do it now
Who doesn't want a flatter muzzle rise and faster splits at 25+ yards?
If it doesn't affect reliability (like in this case the A5 is said to enhance it) then why not?
How many experienced AR users actually run just stock 6920's as their primary carbine, for long?
I must warn against adding cheap, unproven crap to your carbine though. Research well and you generally get what you pay for.
That is just hilarious.
If you took it seriously then that's even more hilarious.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-09-16, 13:27
I think it's adding hardware to fix a software problem. The muzzle devices are the crutch that helps cover up poor technique. But I guess it's cheaper to add a MD than it is to shoot more.
I don't think that top level three gun shooters are using a brake on their rifles because they are needing a crutch. My old BCM middy with a Surefire MB556 literally had no muzzle reaction, the dot in my Aimpoint micro just kind of quivered.
Perhaps some shooters so use them as a crutch, however, while a 556 doesn't have much recoil, and it certainly isn't painful, it does have muzzle climb and a good brake will eliminate that.
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I installed an A5 buffer on mine for:
More stock positions
flatter muzzle rise
was going to replace the end plate with a QD socket one anyway, might as well do it now
Who doesn't want a flatter muzzle rise and faster splits at 25+ yards?
If it doesn't affect reliability (like in this case the A5 is said to enhance it) then why not?
How many experienced AR users actually run just stock 6920's as their primary carbine, for long?
I must warn against adding cheap, unproven crap to your carbine though. Research well and you generally get what you pay for.
Good points. Looks like the A5 system is a proven system. Plus the you get the qd end plate with the bcm kit. But...another 100 bucks... if you don't shoot against a timer, Nah!
I never understand comments insinuating 223 recoil shouldn't matter.
If you can't get the sight back in the bullseye as fast as you can pull the trigger, recoil is affecting your performance.
Technique should be the first way to address this.
Then start looking into hardware after you are proficient, but most of the time, there's a balance. You don't want a 3 gun comp on your hd rifle, but there are many options in between.
This coming from a non pro who uses a flash hider... I do like a little heavier buffers though.
Good points. Looks like the A5 system is a proven system. Plus the you get the qd end plate with the bcm kit. But...another 100 bucks... if you don't shoot against a timer, Nah!
I always imagine a someone invading my home like a timer that kills you when it goes off, and you don't know how much time you have.
Inkslinger
08-09-16, 14:26
I don't think that top level three gun shooters are using a brake on their rifles because they are needing a crutch. My old BCM middy with a Surefire MB556 literally had no muzzle reaction, the dot in my Aimpoint micro just kind of quivered.
Perhaps some shooters so use them as a crutch, however, while a 556 doesn't have much recoil, and it certainly isn't painful, it does have muzzle climb and a good brake will eliminate that.
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My comment wasn't directed at competitive shooters trying to squeeze everything out of a second. It was more a comment on what seems to be a trend that the lasted greatest MD will make you a better shooter than you are. I feel like there's a large segment of the shooting population that is compelled to substitute training and practice with a magic muzzle break so they don't have to train and practice.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-09-16, 14:42
My comment wasn't directed at competitive shooters trying to squeeze everything out of a second. It was more a comment on what seems to be a trend that the lasted greatest MD will make you a better shooter than you are. I feel like there's a large segment of the shooting population that is compelled to substitute training and practice with a magic muzzle break so they don't have to train and practice.
This is absolutely agree with, 172%
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My comment wasn't directed at competitive shooters trying to squeeze everything out of a second. It was more a comment on what seems to be a trend that the lasted greatest MD will make you a better shooter than you are. I feel like there's a large segment of the shooting population that is compelled to substitute training and practice with a magic muzzle break so they don't have to train and practice.
I think that's true. But if you measure being a "better shooter" by more rounds on target in less time, then a good muzzle device makes everyone a "better shooter," whether it's your first time or if you shoot like Jerry Miculek.
It's only really a problem if you replace practice with a muzzle brake. If you're still getting the same practice regardless and you then add a muzzle brake, I don't see why anyone should be disparaging them.
Inkslinger
08-09-16, 15:37
I think that's true. But if you measure being a "better shooter" by more rounds on target in less time, then a good muzzle device makes everyone a "better shooter," whether it's your first time or if you shoot like Jerry Miculek.
It's only really a problem if you replace practice with a muzzle brake. If you're still getting the same practice regardless and you then add a muzzle brake, I don't see why anyone should be disparaging them.
I don't really see how I'm disparaging anyone, but moving on. I look at it this way, I can add performance tires, bigger brakes, and a tuned suspension to my car, but that doesn't make me a better driver.
I installed an A5 buffer on mine for:
More stock positions
flatter muzzle rise
was going to replace the end plate with a QD socket one anyway, might as well do it now
Who doesn't want a flatter muzzle rise and faster splits at 25+ yards?
If it doesn't affect reliability (like in this case the A5 is said to enhance it) then why not?
How many experienced AR users actually run just stock 6920's as their primary carbine, for long?
I must warn against adding cheap, unproven crap to your carbine though. Research well and you generally get what you pay for.
How many people use the 4th through 6th or 7th position on one of these tubes?
Unless you are 7 feet tall.
If you have a telescoping ar15 stock extended out all the way and you are not a Yeti, you are not using the correct technique.
QuickStrike
08-09-16, 16:33
Good points. Looks like the A5 system is a proven system. Plus the you get the qd end plate with the bcm kit. But...another 100 bucks... if you don't shoot against a timer, Nah!
A hunedd dollars is beans in this hobby man. Just spent that much on a few boxes of Federal fusion...
*manly ass tears*
QuickStrike
08-09-16, 16:36
How many people use the 4th through 6th or 7th position on one of these tubes?
Unless you are 7 feet tall.
If you have a telescoping ar15 stock extended out all the way and you are not a Yeti, you are not using the correct technique.
more holes = smaller increments. I dunno, just imo? Just one of the benefits.
lol nvm it's you. Mistah colt mane.
I don't really see how I'm disparaging anyone, but moving on. I look at it this way, I can add performance tires, bigger brakes, and a tuned suspension to my car, but that doesn't make me a better driver.
Maybe because your daily commute isn't exactly a death race?
I'm just a hobbyist so I'm not so sure, but getting hits on an armed attacker before he does the same on you is probably a good thing.
Nobody ever said shooting basics isn't important. But a better shooting gun is a better shooting gun in anybody's hands, from someone like me to a Jerry Miculek.
Whether the advantages are worth it is up to you.
KeithTexas
08-09-16, 17:43
Someone should tell Spikes and all their thrilled customers that. I have no preference myself. Just know my build runs like Forrest out of leg braces...
OP another suggestion I highly agree with is getting a recoil pad or padded stock. That really does change the feel of recoil despite not actually affecting factory set-up. It's a smart choice.
Both of my Colts are a little over gassed by design. Recoil is snappy, but it is just 5.56.
Limbsaver makes a nice custom fit pad specifically for Magpul stocks that are a nice addition for under $30.
https://www.limbsaver.com/product/magpul-carbine-stock-recoil-pad-2/
Nobody ever said shooting basics isn't important. But a better shooting gun is a better shooting gun in anybody's hands, from someone like me to a Jerry Miculek.
Whether the advantages are worth it is up to you.
The issue is, the OP is trying to solve this bogus problem by adding trinkets to a gun instead of learning how to shoot the gun correctly.
Sterling Archer
08-09-16, 19:48
So funny to see all the chest pounders giving their expert opinion like it's gospel from on high and belittling everything else.
NWcityguy2
08-09-16, 20:46
Or all the non-competitors giving their advice on what they would do differently for the competitions that they don't shoot in.
I was issued an M16a1 in 1978 during Basic, having never fired any kind of modern military weapon before. I thought it was the most perfect firearm I had ever shot. My previous experience was 30-30 Lever action Winchesters or 45-70 hunting rifles. For me it was easy to handle, maintain and very accurate. I still remember the armory number stenciled on the buttstock: 94
I still remember calling my folks after waiting in line for a pay phone, and describing what it was like to fire an M16. I told my Dad that that the best way to describe the sound was stomping your foot on a full tube of toothpaste with the lid on; it made a funny pop sound. That's the impression it made on an 18 year old kid just out of High School.
recoil on a le6920? lol I guess I'm a strong guy....
Sent from my SM-Note4
Shoot 50 rounds of 300 WM from a Remington 700. Shoot your 6920. No more recoil problem.
exactly.... shoot a couple of buckshot then get that pony... lol
Sent from my SM-Note4
I can't believe this thread I seven pages long, but, then again, here I am adding to it...
Shoot your gun as much as you can afford/ justify. His gun is heavier, the recoil will be less. You say your buddy has extensive AR15/M4 knowledge, have him verify the weight of barrel/weapon and felt recoil. He should also be able to point out any egregious flaws in your shooting technique. Watch the video already supplied early on in this monster of a thread. Keep it simple, pull weapon firmly(don't over do it) into your shoulder, aim, squeeze, and repeat, ALOT. Get to know the weapon better before making any hardware changes. A little redness in your shoulder after 300 rounds is no big deal, after 30 rounds, you're not doing it right. Relax and shoot the thing. The 5.56/.223 has about as mild a recoil as you will find in a center fire rifle round. If you still feel something should be done for recoil after putting 500 rounds through the weapon, rest assured there is a wealth of items available for purchase that will reduce recoil somewhat. A muzzle brake/device will help the most. But shoot the heck out of it first and you should be able to get comfortable with the AR15's recoil.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Your rifle does not need any adjustments.
Agreed. Just shoot it and get used to the system as it is.
Schmalkald
08-10-16, 09:25
Maybe the OP could appear again and let us know how he intends to use his AR.
Obviously, those who run competitions with the AR want to have the muzzle as stable as possible between shots for the kind of scores they wish to achieve.
But...if he is not a gun gamer, that would tend to suggest to me that he work at learning how to shoot the AR properly before he messes around with a muzzle device.
Wow.... I'm almost speechless... lol... I don't check the web much, but a few weeks later I come back here and there's 7 pages about this!!
I have a bit of reading to do....but I wanted to say thanks in advanced from everybody who responded. :)
Maybe the OP could appear again and let us know how he intends to use his AR.
Obviously, those who run competitions with the AR want to have the muzzle as stable as possible between shots for the kind of scores they wish to achieve.
But...if he is not a gun gamer, that would tend to suggest to me that he work at learning how to shoot the AR properly before he messes around with a muzzle device.
I intend to use my AR for self-defense in a shtf scenario. I purchased it because of the popularity and the possible re-introduction of the AWB if certain people get elected.
I know it's not the best reason, but it's mine.. I never shot one before I bought one and therefore, don't know very much about them. So far, no competitions and nothing planned in teh future.
And considering that I'm very new, I could very well not be shooting it properly. I just compared the two rifles and both my buddy and I noticed that mine had quite a bit more recoil than his.
titsonritz
09-01-16, 16:53
I just compared the two rifles and both my buddy and I noticed that mine had quite a bit more recoil than his.
With the same ammo?
LittleWrench173rdABCT
09-01-16, 18:04
vltor a5 would do the trick, but I would first ensure that you have a solid stance and grip on the gun.
Pick up something heavy, put it down. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. etc.
Pick up something heavy, put it down. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. etc.
Lol...well...yeah... That probably wouldn't hurt for me to do that.
rapomstage3
09-02-16, 21:50
If you weigh more than 150lbs you should be fine. I'd be more concerned with muzzle rise. Recoil is not very bothersome in 5.56. My 10 year old can shoot an ar no problem. FYI he's a weakling. A-5 is your best bet but you will not be able to appreciate any difference or benefits until your squared away.
NWcityguy2
09-03-16, 00:59
An AR with an A2 birdcage will push the muzzle down, not up.
rapomstage3
09-03-16, 06:11
An AR with an A2 birdcage will push the muzzle down, not up.
Gold star!!
How many rounds do you have through the gun? Is it a high round count gun you bought used? It could be that there's some gas port erosion. My LMT with 18.5K through it has alot more noticeable recoil than my new BCM middy. Just the nature of the carbine gas system vs the midlength. I installed a Sprinco Blue action spring and added an H buffer awhile back which helped out alot with the overgassed problem. This is another thing new shooters get confused about. Although a new Colt is highly unlikely to have an incorrect size gas port.
Or do you mean muzzle rise? Alot of people use recoil when what they really mean is muzzle rise.
I think gas port size is the key issue here, assuming both rifles are 16" w/carbine system.
My first AR had a RRA 16" HBAR w/carbine system and it had quite a kick for an AR. I tried various muzzle devices including a JP Tank Brake, heavy buffer & Wolff xtra power spring. Every little bit helped but it still wasn't what I wanted. Sold it for a BCM 14.5" middy and that has half the felt recoil of the RRA.
My BCM middy has run with a 5.4 oz buffer with no problems. Didn't make a big difference in overall felt recoil but seemed to stretch the recoil impulse out making it a little less 'sharp'. Still an improvement but since it's my SHTF rifle it's back to a std. buffer for now. May bump it up to an H2 buffer later.
There are some really great muzzle devices out there, PWS makes one of my favorites, but the tradeoff is more blast back towards the shooter. My BCM middy is so tame it's fine with the A2 birdcage.
I did put the Limbsaver pad on one of my 7.62x39 ARs and it's pretty comfy, if a sore shoulder is your problem this pad is a nice upgrade from the std. rubber pad.
Recoil is doing nothing to improve your accuracy, so if there's anything you can do to reduce it, you'll see the results. ARs were meant to be customized & changed, don't put up with something that can be corrected.
If you have a fixed front sight an adjustable gas block might not be possible but that's the best cure for an overgassed rifle. There's also an adjustable carrier gas key, can't remember who makes it or how good it works.
You should actually go to the beginning and re-read. Also notice that the OP still hasn't even told us what the difference are between his Colt and his buddy's gun.
I think gas port size is the key issue here, assuming both rifles are 16" w/carbine system.
My first AR had a RRA 16" HBAR w/carbine system and it had quite a kick for an AR. I tried various muzzle devices including a JP Tank Brake, heavy buffer & Wolff xtra power spring. Every little bit helped but it still wasn't what I wanted. Sold it for a BCM 14.5" middy and that has half the felt recoil of the RRA.
My BCM middy has run with a 5.4 oz buffer with no problems. Didn't make a big difference in overall felt recoil but seemed to stretch the recoil impulse out making it a little less 'sharp'. Still an improvement but since it's my SHTF rifle it's back to a std. buffer for now. May bump it up to an H2 buffer later.
There are some really great muzzle devices out there, PWS makes one of my favorites, but the tradeoff is more blast back towards the shooter. My BCM middy is so tame it's fine with the A2 birdcage.
I did put the Limbsaver pad on one of my 7.62x39 ARs and it's pretty comfy, if a sore shoulder is your problem this pad is a nice upgrade from the std. rubber pad.
Recoil is doing nothing to improve your accuracy, so if there's anything you can do to reduce it, you'll see the results. ARs were meant to be customized & changed, don't put up with something that can be corrected.
If you have a fixed front sight an adjustable gas block might not be possible but that's the best cure for an overgassed rifle. There's also an adjustable carrier gas key, can't remember who makes it or how good it works.
First off, I'm very new to long guns and M4's/AR's. In saying that, I bought my first one a few months ago and have about 300 or so rounds through it. My buddy bought a Rock River Arms and we went out shooting yesterday. I tried his and there was barely any recoil. You shoot mine and there's some kickback from it.
Now his has a heavier barrel profile compared to mine, and overall, it's a bit heaver in weight. I have a feeling though that the buffer spring has something to do with reducing the recoil.
If I wanted to reduce the recoil on mine (The stock M4 I have), what would I need to swap out? What is the pro/con to changing the buffer spring?
Thanks!
I'd go with an a5 buffer system and a warcomp or mams. That's about the best way I can think of to reduce recoil and sight picture disturbance without making the rifle obnoxious or less reliable.
Before you go down that path, though, go to the training section of this site, and figure out a class that you can afford that's nearest you from a reputable trainer for beginners to the AR platform. It will save you money, and do more for your shooting than any gizmo you can buy.
Shoot the gun, get trained, learn what the parts of the gun do. Don't mod it yet. You don't know why you are doing it yet. (my friends ask me what trigger they should get on their Glock. I tell them, "Learn to use the trigger you have first. The trigger is just fine."..Then, of course I am an A-hole)
I am going to be the devil's advocate here. Why is it that so many guys find it necessary to reduce the recoil of a .223/5.56 AR carbine? When you compare the recoil of an 5.56 AR carbine to a .308 AR, there is virtually no recoil in the 5.56 AR. Unless you are building a precision AR or a 3-Gun AR, recoil should not be an issue. It seems like a lot of guys have turned in their man-card. Go shoot a .308, a 7mm, or even a .30-06 and then shoot your 5.56 AR carbine. Your AR will seem like a BB gun at that point.
I remember the beginning of BRM in basic training a few of the worst guys that were obviously flinching during the "fire for group" range got singled out as pussies while a Drill Sergeant put the buttstock of an M16A2 on his groin and fired it downrange. Complaining that 5.56 recoil is excessive invites needed ridicule but obviously advanced users looking to make the weapon return to target as fast as possible are a completely different segment.
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