View Full Version : Nostalgic 10mm love
Doing some housekeeping and ran across these. Original Norma 10mm ammo circa 1985. Those figures are accurate... at least through my Bren Ten and Chrony measured at 10ft... 30 years ago. 40884
Delta_Elite
08-07-16, 20:31
"Real" 10MM ammo! Ahhhhhh the good old days
Oh yeah, that early Norma ammo was hot stuff. Was your Bren a single shot of did you actually have a magazine?
Oh yeah, that early Norma ammo was hot stuff. Was your Bren a single shot of did you actually have a magazine?
No single shot. I still have the three original mags that came with the Bren.
With those three mags and the ammo , you could probably buy whatever you wanted, current handgun wise, with minimal outlay of your cash. If youve haven't sold the gun , fuggedaboutit...!!! :cool:
Still waiting on that Vltor Bren 10. ;)
With those three mags and the ammo , you could probably buy whatever you wanted, current handgun wise, with minimal outlay of your cash. If youve haven't sold the gun , fuggedaboutit...!!! :cool:
You mean like this?
40885
You mean like this?
40885
Awesome!
I thought mr. Delta Elite above would appreciate this:
One of the first ones released. With factory Pachmayer grips before they went to the generic pebble grain.
40887
ramairthree
08-08-16, 00:12
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/ramairfour/image_zpsewlfoh8i.jpeg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/ramairfour/media/image_zpsewlfoh8i.jpeg.html)
Still waiting on that Vltor Bren 10. ;)
It seemed so close a few years ago...
Wooo boy, bet those were fun to shoot. I've shot my Kimber with some Sig 10mm which is warmish and it's fun as hell.
Still waiting on that Vltor Bren 10. ;)
I second that :p
LGS has a "used" P220 Elite 10mm that's coming home with me if it sits much longer. Out of all my handguns my 10mm Kimber is probably the most fun to shoot.
It seemed so close a few years ago...
I just wonder what happened. It's basically a large frame CZ-75 (95?). EAA/Tangfolio has been doing that in 10mm for years now. With as good as the in house engineering at Vltor seems to be I would have thought they'd have it done long ago.
Fun is the operative word. Sadly, I don't shoot as well as I used to (ageism), but hitting a paper plate at 100yards consistently was very doable with both the Delta and the Bren.
In the 80's, a friend and I went out shooting. He had an AK-47 (I really don't know origin of mfg) and he could not hit that paper plate at all at 100yards and I kept lobbing 180 grainers in...
He wasn't happy with his gun of choice after that. (or his skill)
Mr. Greene
08-08-16, 11:00
Ditto on still waiting for the Vltor version. They seem to lose the drive when they lost their lead guy on the project, a shame because I know they had a lot of time and money improving some of the downsides of the design. I guess it's the Bren Ten jinx, since neither this or the other attempt in the late 80's early 90's failed
Ditto on still waiting for the Vltor version. They seem to lose the drive when they lost their lead guy on the project,
I think is was doomed even when he was still there. I got to hold one, but no one wanted to talk about the project or if it'd ever happen.
I think is was doomed even when he was still there. I got to hold one, but no one wanted to talk about the project or if it'd ever happen.
Really, the business case probably wasn't the best for it anyway. 10mm is a niche caliber to begin with and then add a niche gun that would probably be pricey on top of that. A niche gun that probably cost a fair bit in EMD to get right. They probably hit the point they realized they were throwing good money after bad...
Unfortunately my 10mm isn't nostalgic, but at least the performance is! :)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/Image2_zpsfajcorcm.png
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/Image1_zpsyyalc7ao.png
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/Image_zpsbgyxvvpm.png
Ammo is 180gr Underwood JHP.
Interesting. I didn't know that glock existed.
Really, the business case probably wasn't the best for it anyway. 10mm is a niche caliber to begin with and then add a niche gun that would probably be pricey on top of that. A niche gun that probably cost a fair bit in EMD to get right. They probably hit the point they realized they were throwing good money after bad...
It may have been pricey, but the orders were there. An awful lot of folks put down $$ on advance orders. Many through Bass Pro. I was ready to buy 2. (My mistake for not doing that with my Bren... I could have had a matched set)
I think they had technical issues they couldn't overcome as you suggest.
Interesting. I didn't know that glock existed.
They are relatively new.
They are relatively new.
First catalogued in early 2015, but they didn't deliver until around August-September. I was pretty much the first person in my state to get one, as I ordered from a LE Dist. the day they were announced. :)
Rayrevolver
08-08-16, 18:15
Very cool, I have never seen the Norma ammo. Got into 10mm in 2001 and Doubletap seemed to provide the full house ammo at reasonable prices back then. The DT 135s are supposed to be 1600fps and 767ftlbs.
That Glock 40 reminds me of this scene below. If I didn't just divest all of my 10mm stuff I would love to have one.
http://65.media.tumblr.com/fa866d853cb4da4222858895a824f274/tumblr_inline_o0johjbHLF1temc2w_500.gif
teutonicpolymer
08-08-16, 19:47
Really, the business case probably wasn't the best for it anyway. 10mm is a niche caliber to begin with and then add a niche gun that would probably be pricey on top of that. A niche gun that probably cost a fair bit in EMD to get right. They probably hit the point they realized they were throwing good money after bad...
Probably wouldn't have been hard to piggy back the 10mm by making a .45 ACP version
Very cool, I have never seen the Norma ammo. Got into 10mm in 2001 and Doubletap seemed to provide the full house ammo at reasonable prices back then. The DT 135s are supposed to be 1600fps and 767ftlbs.
That Glock 40 reminds me of this scene below. If I didn't just divest all of my 10mm stuff I would love to have one.
http://65.media.tumblr.com/fa866d853cb4da4222858895a824f274/tumblr_inline_o0johjbHLF1temc2w_500.gif
LOL, it do be long! Still working out how to shoe it with a holster. I want one sporting a Safariland type optic hood, to protect the glass from getting debris on it when tromping through the woods. It is fun to shoot though!
Probably wouldn't have been hard to piggy back the 10mm by making a .45 ACP version
This was done with the original Bren. IIRC, The Miami Vice one was .45
Delta_Elite
08-09-16, 06:00
That delta is real nice! The glock is nothing short of awesome though.
My Delta was $425 lightly used in the early 90's sat at the Lgs foreveruntil I bought it.
Very cool, I have never seen the Norma ammo. Got into 10mm in 2001 and Doubletap seemed to provide the full house ammo at reasonable prices back then. The DT 135s are supposed to be 1600fps and 767ftlbs.
That Glock 40 reminds me of this scene below. If I didn't just divest all of my 10mm stuff I would love to have one.
http://65.media.tumblr.com/fa866d853cb4da4222858895a824f274/tumblr_inline_o0johjbHLF1temc2w_500.gif
That is actually a 38spl. I know that wasn't your point, just thought I'd mention it.
I had a few 10s in the last 5 or 6 years. Ended up selling them. Typical store ammo is downloaded, the good stuff is expensive and I don't reloads.
I had a G21, S&W 1006 and 1026
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
ramairthree
08-09-16, 09:46
I had thought the Miami Vice guns were all 10mm. First was a 10mm Bren, followed by a S&W 1006.
I believe I later found out it was replaced by a 4506.
I know around 1987 or 1988 me and a buddy decided we were going to get super, movie kind of guns.
He decided on a Bren 10. I wanted a Dirty Harry 44 Automag.
In the days before Internet, special TV channels, etc. combined with being teenagers/early 20s it was not uncommon to have a yearning for a gun you though was awesome in a movie, on a TV show, etc. and not know any better.
We went out the Hunter Army Airfield gate by Tuttle to the pawn/gun shop there that usually had one of our retired 1SGs or CSMs working the counter. He said no way we could afford either of our choices. We were bummed because we had each saved up like a thousand bucks. He got us as close as he could to our goals in our budget. He ended up with a Delta Elite and all the Norma they had. It was like a dollar a round. I ended up with a Desert Eagle 44, a mount, and an Aimpoint 1000 and my 240 grain SJHP was about half as much per round. His kicked harder.
I had thought the Miami Vice guns were all 10mm. First was a 10mm Bren, followed by a S&W 1006.
I believe I later found out it was replaced by a 4506.
I know around 1987 or 1988 me and a buddy decided we were going to get super, movie kind of guns.
He decided on a Bren 10. I wanted a Dirty Harry 44 Automag.
In the days before Internet, special TV channels, etc. combined with being teenagers/early 20s it was not uncommon to have a yearning for a gun you though was awesome in a movie, on a TV show, etc. and not know any better.
We went out the Hunter Army Airfield gate by Tuttle to the pawn/gun shop there that usually had one of our retired 1SGs or CSMs working the counter. He said no way we could afford either of our choices. We were bummed because we had each saved up like a thousand bucks. He got us as close as he could to our goals in our budget. He ended up with a Delta Elite and all the Norma they had. It was like a dollar a round. I ended up with a Desert Eagle 44, a mount, and an Aimpoint 1000 and my 240 grain SJHP was about half as much per round. His kicked harder.
Here are the details on the Miami Vice gun below:
Another aspect often discussed by Bren collectors concerns the actual make-up of the blank-firing prop gun used by Don Johnson. It is said that the actual gun used was in fact a .45 caliber pistol rather than a 10mm Auto. This was for the simple reason that .45 blanks were readily available while blanks for the 10mm were basically non-existant. This would be easy enough as Dornaus & Dixon produced a limited run of 250 Marksman Special Match Brens chambered in .45 Auto. There are a number of episodes, however, where close-ups of Sonny's Bren Ten plainly show the Gunsite Raven and the words "BREN TEN" on the slide. These markings were not on the Markman pistols. The .45 slide that came with the Dual-Master did have the correct markings, but these special guns were also engraved which would have shown. Another possibility is that these guns were Standard Models fitted with a .45 Conversion Kit which came with a slide that included all the same markings as a Standard Model. Of course the final option is that these guns were simply custom made for the show.
While speculation is entertaining by it's very nature, we still want to know the facts, and in this case Bruce Orlowski has been gracious enough to share with us the real story behind the Miami Vice Bren Tens. Bruce writes:
The two guns were ordered specifically for the show by Michael Mann's production company. They did not come off the assembly line, but were built by Tom Dornaus personally. Tom did the initial blank conversion, if you want to call it that, but actually these two guns were built from the ground up specifically for firing blanks. He used major components which were not deemed suitable for production guns, but were perfectly adequate for a blank gun. The two guns were Standard Models with the old style rear sight assembly and no trigger stop screw. All external markings were standard Bren Ten. The only difference being that the guns had recoil springs and barrels designed to fire .45 ACP blanks. The barrel does not carry any caliber designation roll mark however. Because the ejection port on a Bren Ten is so large I don't believe that it had to be enlarged to accommodate the elongated .45 ACP blank cases. (Remember that the blank cases are in the shape of a loaded round WITH bullet seated.) Michael Mann requested specifically that the slides be a light color (hard chrome) for enhanced visibility. The hard chrome work was done by a small firm in the Huntington Beach area at that time. Both guns carry a special serial number. One of the guns is in the possession of a major collector in Pennsylvania and the other is owned by one of the show's producers, I believe. They weren't Marksmans or Standard Models with conversion kits. They were two specially built guns.
Ha I was waiting for someone to make a Miami Vice reference!
Here are the details on the Miami Vice gun below:
Another aspect often discussed by Bren collectors concerns the actual make-up of the blank-firing prop gun used by Don Johnson. It is said that the actual gun used was in fact a .45 caliber pistol rather than a 10mm Auto. This was for the simple reason that .45 blanks were readily available while blanks for the 10mm were basically non-existant. This would be easy enough as Dornaus & Dixon produced a limited run of 250 Marksman Special Match Brens chambered in .45 Auto. There are a number of episodes, however, where close-ups of Sonny's Bren Ten plainly show the Gunsite Raven and the words "BREN TEN" on the slide. These markings were not on the Markman pistols. The .45 slide that came with the Dual-Master did have the correct markings, but these special guns were also engraved which would have shown. Another possibility is that these guns were Standard Models fitted with a .45 Conversion Kit which came with a slide that included all the same markings as a Standard Model. Of course the final option is that these guns were simply custom made for the show.
While speculation is entertaining by it's very nature, we still want to know the facts, and in this case Bruce Orlowski has been gracious enough to share with us the real story behind the Miami Vice Bren Tens. Bruce writes:
The two guns were ordered specifically for the show by Michael Mann's production company. They did not come off the assembly line, but were built by Tom Dornaus personally. Tom did the initial blank conversion, if you want to call it that, but actually these two guns were built from the ground up specifically for firing blanks. He used major components which were not deemed suitable for production guns, but were perfectly adequate for a blank gun. The two guns were Standard Models with the old style rear sight assembly and no trigger stop screw. All external markings were standard Bren Ten. The only difference being that the guns had recoil springs and barrels designed to fire .45 ACP blanks. The barrel does not carry any caliber designation roll mark however. Because the ejection port on a Bren Ten is so large I don't believe that it had to be enlarged to accommodate the elongated .45 ACP blank cases. (Remember that the blank cases are in the shape of a loaded round WITH bullet seated.) Michael Mann requested specifically that the slides be a light color (hard chrome) for enhanced visibility. The hard chrome work was done by a small firm in the Huntington Beach area at that time. Both guns carry a special serial number. One of the guns is in the possession of a major collector in Pennsylvania and the other is owned by one of the show's producers, I believe. They weren't Marksmans or Standard Models with conversion kits. They were two specially built guns.
Very cool information. I too had wanted a Bren 10mm based on the show, but it was unobtanium. I did ultimately get a S&W 1006 a few years later, should've kept that.
Michael Mann was a stickler for details. So it makes sense he wanted Sonny's gun to be bespoke to the character. Rumor has it that MM would have lines in background scenes of parking lots repainted from standard yellow to hot pink to keep with the 'aesthetic'.
As a follower of Jeff Cooper back then, I was on board with the whole 10mm concept. Also, I like to be different.
So when news/word came out that the Bren Ten could be purchased, I put in my deposit. And waited...
I was lucky enough to get one from the first month of production. Indeed one of the first 100 made. How close to #1 I may never know as the serial numbers did not follow any linear progression. And the records for Dornaus and Dixon are not available. (Lost to history? No one seems to know)
So how do I know I have an early one? There were different modifications made to the guns coming off the assembly line. Like a flat milled slide as opposed to a round top. A "3 dot" safety as opposed to the "2 dot". The earliest modifications were to change the windage screws on the rear sight from allen screws to slot screws. Also, a trigger stop screw was inserted. It is very rare to find an original Bren without the trigger stop screw. It is known that these two modifications were done in the first lots at the end of month one of production. If you notice the picture I posted, there is no trigger stop screw and I have the allen set screws on the rear sight. On the triggers, as far as a DA/SA trigger can be good, these are really, really good.
That is really all the info or hints that remain on the production of these fine pieces of history.
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