View Full Version : Reliability of "budget AR" vs. BCM, DD, Colt, etc. mid-level AR
voiceofreason
08-09-16, 06:38
Wife's friend is looking to purchase an AR soon. They're out of state, so they can't just sample any of mine.
In terms of reliability, what kind of difference are we talking about for defensive usage between something like a S&W M&P15 Sport2 vs the mid level/quality stuff?
<$650 vs. >$1,000
Ask them if their life is worth $350.
Ask them if their life is worth $350. I literally spit coffee out of my nose when I read this.
Renegade04
08-09-16, 09:04
The fact is that most ARs are going to function well as a defensive weapon. Now, that does not mean that every AR will handle the same use and abuse. A $650 S&W M&P-15 Sport II is a good AR. It is not one of the best, but it is very good for what it is. They are good range guns as well as for home defense. One could even rely on it in a SHTF situation if need be. Of course, how the weapon performs is going to greatly depend on how well it is assembled, the components used, how it is maintained, the ammo used, and the skill of the shooter. The M&P-15 Sport II is a basic carbine setup. It will have some limitations in that configuration. The same goes for a Colt 6920, which is in a very similar configuration. You can buy more expensive ARs that utilize better quality components, but what you buy all depends on just how much quality you want and just how hard you expect to run the AR. Even some of the less expensive ARs can run extremely well while some of the more expensive can have issues from time to time. For the most part, an AR with a good quality barrel and BCG will function well as long as it is assembled properly. In essence, a person has to choose something that not only fits their budget, but will also work for them in a given situation and hold up under that intended use. The important thing is not to get stuck on a name brand, but to consider the sum of the parts used and the reputation of the company that assembled the AR.
Renegade phrased it best. Personally, for what they're running right now at retail, I feel that the Colt is the way to go.
Renegade phrased it best. Personally, for what they're running right now at retail, I feel that the Colt is the way to go.
I 2nd this. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what gun it is, be it an M&P or a BCM, they will need to buy a bunch of ammo and learn how to run the gun and make sure it's reliable. The M&P is an ok gun and S&W has an excellent warranty if there are any issues. I shot out my 5.45 barrel in a S&W upper and they replaced the barrel free of charge. They were also a whole lot easier to work with than some other vendors when it comes to customer service.
I think we can all agree that there are some guns in the lower tier that will run and there are a lot of vendors to avoid (like S&W vs PSA low end) in that price range. If they must stay in that price range I think it's more important to push them in the right direction.
BoringGuy45
08-09-16, 12:26
The AR-15 is a sound design; it's world class engineered and still pretty state of the art at over 50 years old. With that taken into account, it's not outside the realm of logic that a lower end gun, even with some corners being cut, can function just fine even with heavy use. A DPMS is still an AR-15; it's not a Ross Rifle or a Chauchat. That said, your odds of getting a lemon are MUCH greater, and the chances of early wear and breakage are going to be found in lower end ARs as there is not as much attention to detail in either manufacturing or inspecting/choosing parts. You can really feel the difference between a low quality and good quality AR. If I'm really going to be choosing something to defend myself and my family, why would I not buy a high quality item?
Renegade phrased it best. Personally, for what they're running right now at retail, I feel that the Colt is the way to go.
+1
Get a nice OEM1 build and make it your own. All you need is furniture, rear sight, magazines.
Whatever you buy, you need to shoot it, learn it, get proficient, and verify it's reliability. That costs money.
Used colts and bcm, etc go for decent price. That said, I don't think a "decent" commercial grade rifle like sw is a waste of money either, but I'd suggest they save a little more.
Most people put rediculous budgets on guns, but blow money on crap that doesn't matter like tobacco, booze, eating out, movies, cable, cars, etc.
You could trade a year of cable TV for a good rifle.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-09-16, 14:23
Short answer, maybe not any. With as much as I hate bottom dwelling, garbage AR's like DPMS and CORE, The ones that function seem to function as well as anything else. I've seen some DPMS's sporticals run like raped apes, and I've seen a KAC SR-15 legacy rifle with an unfinished chamber from the factory. Shit happens.
When you spend money on a rifle, you're typically buying three things:
1. Insurance (that the rifle will run right)
2. Long term durability/reliability
3. Features/upgrades already on the rifle... Trigger, rails, BUIS etc...
At the end of the day, you have to decide what you'll be using the rifle for and how much are you willing to spend on that task? If it's a defensive rifle, then how much you're life is worth? For me it's worth around 2 grand for just the rifle.
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Doc Safari
08-09-16, 14:34
Just my two cents, but I'm all for buying a "budget" AR as long as you understand it's a range toy or training tool and not a viable combat weapon.
If you want something that will survive use and abuse over the long term, get one of the top-tier weapons and just suck it up that "you get what you pay for."
^
The bottom lines is, as with most things in life, you get what you pay for.
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For the current cost of a Colt AR6720 or a LE6920, why not get a rifle you can bet your life on?
For the current cost of a Colt AR6720 or a LE6920, why not get a rifle you can bet your life on?
This. I was at work otherwise I would have posted this earlier. Grant has Colt 6720s for $799. So for what, $150 more than the Sport II you have what most here will consider a standard. Light, sling, mags, ammo, and optic and chances are it is going to be more than adequate for 99% of things a person will see.
I get the budget desires, been there, done that, cost more in the long run because I had to ditch the shit parts and replace with proper in spec parts.
In my early adult life I had three Bushmaster rifles that were reliable and shot well. It wasn't until I got one as a duty rifle that I could see the shortcomings of the rifle. When the Bushmasters were actually ran like a fighting rifle, ie.. not shooting a couple mags at the range, the corner cutting started the cause problems. Wasn't just my rifle, it was pretty much every Bushmaster that my deprtment had. I felt a huge wieght come off my shoulders when the Bushmasters were turned in and we got new Colt 6920s. All the failures and break downs at the range went away. It felt really good to have a rifle I could depend on.
I would ask them this question:
You are looking at buying a machine that could be used to save your life. Do you want to buy one that is built correctly and is proven or one that has cost measures built in to make the machine cheaper? It's made cheaper because the higher failure rate is at an acceptable level to still make money for that company.
i appreciate a good lifetime warranty. a quality gun shouldn't need the warranty used. i replace worn parts and springs myself.
a quality gun is a tool. think about this, whats a great warranty good for if the rifle breaks when you need it. between cheap materials and schlock qc you get what you pay for. just hope the gun breaks down at the range.
have fun sending the gun to the factory when your dead.
to me the higher cost to mfgr is spent not only on r and d, and marketing. it is spent on tool holders, cnc machines, good machinists, tools, and better more reliably made metal stock.
a cheap supplier of stock will give you what you pay for. the metal will be mixed bad and the stock will have imperfections that will cause early unneeded breakage of the machined part.
this is especially true for spring stock. think about what it does a bad spot on the spring will cause failure, stopping the gun.
a better company will have more strict quality control. the tollerances may not be tighter than norm, but they will allow less parts on or beyond the normal spec. tollerances stack, look up tollerance stacking
dont assume im saying bcm and daniel defense and such never mess up, but with better qc and components the guns are less likley to mess up, and less likley to need the warranty when the rifle is actually used to save your life.
but at the end of the day buy what you want. dont say you werent warned
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Superior quality of materials used and better manufacturing processes = Higher cost of product.
It's a gamble of trying to save costs and trying to keep a certain standard of quality. Every business out there wants to reduce costs to increase profit, but not all will hold themselves to a higher standard and continue to pay for the superior quality. It's amazing how many companies will cut corners to save a buck. Example, I can order barrels from X manufacturer that offers MPI testing, or I can order the same quality of barrel from Y manufacturer that doesn't offer MPI testing for $9 less. It may not seem like much but when you're ordering thousands at a time that $9 saved turns into a new Mazak pretty fast.
It's amazing how many companies will cut corners to save a PENNY.
Fixed that for you.
Superior quality of materials used and better manufacturing processes = Higher cost of product.
It's a gamble of trying to save costs and trying to keep a certain standard of quality. Every business out there wants to reduce costs to increase profit, but not all will hold themselves to a higher standard and continue to pay for the superior quality. It's amazing how many companies will cut corners to save a buck. Example, I can order barrels from X manufacturer that offers MPI testing, or I can order the same quality of barrel from Y manufacturer that doesn't offer MPI testing for $9 less. It may not seem like much but when you're ordering thousands at a time that $9 saved turns into a new Mazak pretty fast.
damn mazatrol.....
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An analogy I like to use is comparing a wrench set bought from Harbor Freight vs. a Snap-On or SK. For most guys who plan to use them only once, or occasionally on a weekend the Harbor Freight tools will likely get the job done and save you some money. But if you're an avid car enthusiast or a professional mechanic the HF tool will give out in a hurry. If you're buying an AR just to shoot at the range or else don't expect to put more than a few hundred rounds through it in a year the entry level rifles will likely do just fine. However as has been pointed out earlier right now you can buy a quality AR for only a couple hundred more than a cheap one, so why not? If we were talking $600 S&W versus $1200 Colt it would make more sense, but with Colts around $800-$900 you must seriously be on a budget crunch.
Short answer, maybe not any. With as much as I hate bottom dwelling, garbage AR's like DPMS and CORE, The ones that function seem to function as well as anything else. I've seen some DPMS's sporticals run like raped apes, and I've seen a KAC SR-15 legacy rifle with an unfinished chamber from the factory. Shit happens.
When you spend money on a rifle, you're typically buying three things:
1. Insurance (that the rifle will run right)
2. Long term durability/reliability
3. Features/upgrades already on the rifle... Trigger, rails, BUIS etc...
At the end of the day, you have to decide what you'll be using the rifle for and how much are you willing to spend on that task? If it's a defensive rifle, then how much you're life is worth? For me it's worth around 2 grand for just the rifle.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160809/781ccae630044e09ee155a4ae7194212.jpg
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The current SR15s are a great value, that's for sure.
I don't see a reason to "cheap out" these days when the basic 6920 can be had in the $800 dollar range. About the cheapest I could possibly recommend someone going is the recent Armalite "DEF15" model. THe only thing it has that I don't l ike is the bolt carrier is not the straight up old school "semi style" but has the shrouded FP but the back isn't full length. I've seen them as low as 569 on GB new and have 1:7", CL, M4 ramps, proper barrel steel, etc.
Are we talking about 6920 OEM or stock 6920. Let me know where you are seeing 6920s for $800. I know we have seen them that low but since colt changes their dealer requirements they have been scarce.
Are we talking about 6920 OEM or stock 6920. Let me know where you are seeing 6920s for $800. I know we have seen them that low but since colt changes their dealer requirements they have been scarce.
Look at G&R's price for the basic 6920: 850
Look at G&R's price for the basic 6920: 850
Not in stock
I have an M&P15 as a backup/loaner. It's an ok rifle, for a sub $600 AR. Feeds reliably, even with steel case.
You'll want to double check the staking for sure. Gas block looked good, but the castle might as well been left unstaked. Looked like the factory tapped it with an old flathead once and shipped it out, was not sufficient.
I would probably go with a Colt, if the price was only a few hundred more, but I wasn't able to find one locally.
I wouldn't trust it as a long-term "work gun," but for a couple thousand rnds a year IMO it runs fine. It's gone bang every time I've pulled the trigger, for what it's worth.
Not in stock
They'll be back eventually.
I picked one up for 859 on gb a while back. That model just isn't as common now due to the popularity of the magpul furniture version.
Call Ratworx for good prices on 6920s
Call Ratworx for good prices on 6920s
Got a great price on an OEM2 from them.
Are we talking about 6920 OEM or stock 6920. Let me know where you are seeing 6920s for $800. I know we have seen them that low but since colt changes their dealer requirements they have been scarce.
I'm seeing 6920's going for $650-$700 on Armslist with less then a $1k rounds through them. I don't have a problem buying used so long as I give it a good once over.
The Colt 6920 is a decent firearm and would be a good choice if you can find one in your price range. I've owned a few of them and they were reasonably accurate.
If I told you which brand carbines I had on hand for students who did not bring their own carbine to shooting courses I taught over a period of 12 years it would start a shit storm, so I will just say they were Brand X.
If I told you which brand carbines I had on hand for students who did not bring their own carbine to shooting courses...
I can see students bringing a crap rifle that doesn't work, but not even bringing one at all is a new one to me! Did each student get a complimentary slap upside the head along with each rifle you issued?
I can see students bringing a crap rifle that doesn't work, but not even bringing one at all is a new one to me! Did each student get a complimentary slap upside the head along with each rifle you issued?
If a student did not have an iron sight carbine, I offered them for the Basic Carbine Course. If a carbine went down during a course and repairs would take too long out on the range, the carbines were available to finish the day.
When 12 students shoot 1,200 rounds each in three days, you see hard malfunctions once in a while.
On a scale from 1-10, with 1 being an early Bushmaster and 10 being a a Daniel Defense or equivalent, what would y'all rate Adams Arms?
Reason I ask is because I recently bought one (rifle, not a retro) and there just isn't a lot on the internet about them. Not sure if it's because they're not favored or if it's because the piston market is kind of a niche place. And no, I'm not trying to start another piston/DI debate. I want feedback on the company's quality since this thread is about price vs quality.
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Mr. Goodtimes
08-10-16, 09:49
On a scale from 1-10, with 1 being an early Bushmaster and 10 being a a Daniel Defense or equivalent, what would y'all rate Adams Arms?
Reason I ask is because I recently bought one (rifle, not a retro) and there just isn't a lot on the internet about them. Not sure if it's because they're not favored or if it's because the piston market is kind of a niche place. And no, I'm not trying to start another piston/DI debate. I want feedback on the company's quality since this thread is about price vs quality.
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1
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1
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Why?
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Mr. Goodtimes
08-10-16, 10:34
Why?
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Piston, proprietary, small manufacturer of dubious quality. It's not an awful rifle, and neither is a Bush Master, I've seen plenty of bushys that ran fine.
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Why?
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Think of it this way - if an assault weapon ban occurred tomorrow (or any other scenario where you don't have immediate access to replacement parts, armorer, etc.), can you support the rifle yourself or through someone close to you? With DI guns, the answer is a fairly uniform "yes." With piston guns, the answer is largely "no." This is mainly due to the proprietary nature of pistons.
However, factor in a fairly small company like AA, and then the possibility for even finding spare parts becomes a growing impossibility. That is, unless you buy plenty (2 or more) of spare parts (piston kits) on the front-end (i.e. now).
So, in reality, the long-term support of your rifle is little more than a small company's customer service.
Now sure, we aren't in an AWB, but most members here view their rifles as fighting systems that need to be able to be supported if the need were to arise. That's where the low scores for AA and similar manufacturers come from.
This also swings the other way, where even top tier manufacturers (like Knights Armament) make a battle-proven rifle that is undoubtedly top tier, but have proprietary parts and low availability for replacement parts. While those rifles are just as good as (if not better) than a majority of other top-tier rifles, this aspect pushes many to go with more conventional setups for long-term support.
Think of it this way - if an assault weapon ban occurred tomorrow (or any other scenario where you don't have immediate access to replacement parts, armorer, etc.), can you support the rifle yourself or through someone close to you? With DI guns, the answer is a fairly uniform "yes." With piston guns, the answer is largely "no." This is mainly due to the proprietary nature of pistons.
However, factor in a fairly small company like AA, and then the possibility for even finding spare parts becomes a growing impossibility. That is, unless you buy plenty (2 or more) of spare parts (piston kits) on the front-end (i.e. now).
So, in reality, the long-term support of your rifle is little more than a small company's customer service.
Now sure, we aren't in an AWB, but most members here view their rifles as fighting systems that need to be able to be supported if the need were to arise. That's where the low scores for AA and similar manufacturers come from.
This also swings the other way, where even top tier manufacturers (like Knights Armament) make a battle-proven rifle that is undoubtedly top tier, but have proprietary parts and low availability for replacement parts. While those rifles are just as good as (if not better) than a majority of other top-tier rifles, this aspect pushes many to go with more conventional setups for long-term support.
As an owner of an Adams Arms AA15...
I whole heartily agree, and couldn't have worded it any better myself.
Thank you Skyyr for the detailed response. I was already tossing the idea of getting a spare bcg and piston assembly. Or use the AA as a range toy and try to get a BCM before the election madness really heats up.
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Thank you Skyyr for the detailed response. I was already tossing the idea of getting a spare bcg and piston assembly. Or use the AA as a range toy and try to get a BCM before the election madness really heats up.
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Considering a BCG is around 100 on average, and the piston kit is around 120 or (IIRC), Spend that near 200+ on a colt or BCM. ;)
As mentioned, I am an Adams Arms guy, and I love my piston system. But, a quality DI really should be someone's "go-to" "shtf" rifle.
If budget is limited, the BCG and piston, supposing your rifle eats ammo well, will be your better directive.
But, if you can get it, go for the full DI rifle so you have two before any risk of a ban.
Considering a BCG is around 100 on average, and the piston kit is around 120 or (IIRC), Spend that near 200+ on a colt or BCM. ;)
As mentioned, I am an Adams Arms guy, and I love my piston system. But, a quality DI really should be someone's "go-to" "shtf" rifle.
If budget is limited, the BCG and piston, supposing your rifle eats ammo well, will be your better directive.
But, if you can get it, go for the full DI rifle so you have two before any risk of a ban.
For the time being, I think I'm going to get a BCG and piston. My AA is chambered in 5.45 (yet another less than ideal SHTF factor) so there's a laundry list of things I'd need.
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Mr. Goodtimes
08-10-16, 12:56
This also swings the other way, where even top tier manufacturers (like Knights Armament) make a battle-proven rifle that is undoubtedly top tier, but have proprietary parts and low availability for replacement parts. While those rifles are just as good as (if not better) than a majority of other top-tier rifles, this aspect pushes many to go with more conventional setups for long-term support.
The only proprietary critical operating components on the KAC rifles is the Gas tube and the bolt, and the rifle can accept a standard bolt in a pinch, and the gas tube is highly unlikely to fail.
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The only proprietary critical operating components on the KAC rifles is the Gas tube and the bolt, and the rifle can accept a standard bolt in a pinch, and the gas tube is highly unlikely to fail.
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I think you're referring to the Mod 1 rifles. The Mod 2 rifles also have a proprietary gas block, gas block castle nut, and barrel (the barrel is threaded for the gas block castle nut). Great designs that address the shortcomings of traditional gas blocks, but they're also proprietary and therefore not in common circulation. They're also expensive.
I love the Mod 2 design, I just mention that to show that the drawbacks of proprietary parts aren't just limited to lower-tier manufacturers or "cheap" rifles.
Lots of anecdotal data supports the conclusion that some low-cost ARs have a higher failure rate than higher-cost ARs. Some of these higher-cost ARs have earned great reputations, and I suspect, largely with good reason. Nonetheless, we have all heard stories of various low-cost ARs running for thousands of rounds without issue, potentially outshooting some higher-cost rifles, and similar stories of failures even with high end ARs. What would be helpful would be to have real data compiled and analyzed to give the consumer a failure rate. We have this for cars, allowing us to compare brands before we buy. For "serious use" applications, reliability is at the very top of most people's lists in important qualities of a fighting rifle. Accuracy, weight, and cost are factors we can compare, too, but reliability is so critical that a nice comparison chart would be of great use. The reality is that we all have to make a choice- do you buy the $550 "bargain" rifle or one that costs twice- or four times!- the cost? That $1,500 difference can buy a lot of ammo for practice, a training course, a spare rifle (or 3), or maybe even pay the rent or some tuition for your kid's school. How do we make the best decisions?
http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/how-car-brands-compare-for-reliability/
Would be nice if someone like iraqveteran8888 would do a 3,000rd test on 25 or so guns. Highest retail and lowest retail from some of the more popular manufacturers. Completely stock guns. Same weather conditions. Same ammo.
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Would be nice if someone like iraqveteran8888 would do a 3,000rd test on 25 or so guns. Highest retail and lowest retail from some of the more popular manufacturers. Completely stock guns. Same weather conditions. Same ammo.
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To be truly scientific you would need 5-10 of each brand. An expensive test for sure.
This is why I value what trainers say. They see a large sample size.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-10-16, 17:09
I think you're referring to the Mod 1 rifles. The Mod 2 rifles also have a proprietary gas block, gas block castle nut, and barrel (the barrel is threaded for the gas block castle nut). Great designs that address the shortcomings of traditional gas blocks, but they're also proprietary and therefore not in common circulation. They're also expensive.
I love the Mod 2 design, I just mention that to show that the drawbacks of proprietary parts aren't just limited to lower-tier manufacturers or "cheap" rifles.
Very good point.
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Basically, if you stick to stock configurations, it will be very reliable.
It's when you venture off the beaten path you might see issues.
To be truly scientific you would need 5-10 of each brand. An expensive test for sure.
This is why I value what trainers say. They see a large sample size.
I agree with that, but those observations could be skewed by the fact there are more "lower tier" rifles in civi hands. Therefore, by true numbers they would fail in higher numbers.
Just a thought, as I'm not an advocate of shitty rifles. The colt is what the AR is supposed to be, so it's the minimum standard for me. Anything beyond that is extra.
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Doc Safari
08-10-16, 17:41
I agree with that, but those observations could be skewed by the fact there are more "lower tier" rifles in civi hands. Therefore, by true numbers they would fail in higher numbers.
Just a thought, as I'm not an advocate of shitty rifles. The colt is what the AR is supposed to be, so it's the minimum standard for me. Anything beyond that is extra.
Results can also be skewed by the fact that lot of owners of low tier rifles don't shoot their weapons very much.
The key is to see which brands survive hard training classes and actual combat the best (not that DPMS, Bushmaster, etc. are used in combat much).
If I'm not mistaken one reason Rob Sloyer's chart came into being in the first place was as a result of watching low tier rifles fail in training classes.
I agree with that, but those observations could be skewed by the fact there are more "lower tier" rifles in civi hands. Therefore, by true numbers they would fail in higher numbers.
Just a thought, as I'm not an advocate of shitty rifles. The colt is what the AR is supposed to be, so it's the minimum standard for me. Anything beyond that is extra.
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One would hope they would see a higher % of quality rifles since the people signing up for quality instruction are more often than not more informed than the guy that goes into a random Fudd-friendly store and is talked into a DPMS or Bushmaster for 999. Hell, during the first "Obama Panic" a local store I frequented (only for the range, I only went inside to pay and laugh) marked those shitty guns up to 1299 and sold them as "high quality" all day long.
Basically, if you stick to stock configurations, it will be very reliable.
It's when you venture off the beaten path you might see issues.
There is a lot of merit to this comment. Most of the issues I have seen over the years were with weapons, pistols and carbines, that looked like an accessories catalog puked on them. The rest of the issues involved lack of lubrication.
Would be nice if someone like iraqveteran8888 would do a 3,000rd test on 25 or so guns. Highest retail and lowest retail from some of the more popular manufacturers. Completely stock guns. Same weather conditions. Same ammo.
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Related to this and possibly of interest to those reading this thread, this KAC SR-15 Mod 2 went 20,000 rounds with zero cleaning and zero weapon-attributed malfunctions:
http://ballisticradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/KAC-dirty.jpg
http://ballisticradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/inside-KAC.jpg
Read more link:
http://ballisticradio.com/endurance-tests/kac-sr-15-mod-2/
Related to this and possibly of interest to those reading this thread, this KAC SR-15 Mod 2 went 20,000 rounds with zero cleaning and zero weapon-attributed malfunctions:
http://ballisticradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/KAC-dirty.jpg
http://ballisticradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/inside-KAC.jpg
Read more link:
http://ballisticradio.com/endurance-tests/kac-sr-15-mod-2/
That is amazing.
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Anddd that makes me want one even more now. Dammit!
In my early adult life I had three Bushmaster rifles that were reliable and shot well.
In my early AR years, it was Bushmaster or Colt. I ran a Bushmaster upper on a build lower. I didn't know shit about overgassing.. and neither did anyone on the AR forums at that time. Every few thousand rounds it would malf. I never have those problems now.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-10-16, 20:24
Related to this and possibly of interest to those reading this thread, this KAC SR-15 Mod 2 went 20,000 rounds with zero cleaning and zero weapon-attributed malfunctions:
http://ballisticradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/KAC-dirty.jpg
http://ballisticradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/inside-KAC.jpg
Read more link:
http://ballisticradio.com/endurance-tests/kac-sr-15-mod-2/
I already knew I wanted a KAC when I bought mine, I've wanted one for years, since the original E2... But if I didn't know, I wouldn't have to read much more than that.
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Related to this and possibly of interest to those reading this thread, this KAC SR-15 Mod 2 went 20,000 rounds with zero cleaning and zero weapon-attributed malfunctions:
But there were malfs? Attributed to what?
Mr. Goodtimes
08-10-16, 20:40
But there were malfs? Attributed to what?
I believe there was one malfunction attributed to ammo.
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I believe there was one malfunction attributed to ammo.
Ah. ONE malf on a gun that filthy... ammo or not, it pretty damned good.
I already knew I wanted a KAC when I bought mine, I've wanted one for years, since the original E2... But if I didn't know, I wouldn't have to read much more than that.
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I am absolutely not saying anything derogatory about Knight's Armament here, but seems to me the 'endurance runs' are more along the lines of 'see these effer's will run forever if you keep 'em lubed.'
I am absolutely not saying anything derogatory about Knight's Armament here, but seems to me the 'endurance runs' are more along the lines of 'see these effer's will run forever if you keep 'em lubed.'
which at the end of the day tells us, keep the ar 15 gun lubed
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Ah. ONE malf on a gun that filthy... ammo or not, it pretty damned good.
Two malfunctions - one was attributed to a bad follower binding in the magazine resulting in a failure to feed, and one malfunction attributed to soft brass where there was a failure to eject. No other malfunctions in a total of 20,145 rounds.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-10-16, 22:15
I am absolutely not saying anything derogatory about Knight's Armament here, but seems to me the 'endurance runs' are more along the lines of 'see these effer's will run forever if you keep 'em lubed.'
I think that's a pretty fair assessment of any rifle. Lubing the rifle every 800 rounds takes all of thirty seconds to a min at most. That's pretty impressive, for any rifle.
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vicious_cb
08-11-16, 00:20
Wife's friend is looking to purchase an AR soon. They're out of state, so they can't just sample any of mine.
In terms of reliability, what kind of difference are we talking about for defensive usage between something like a S&W M&P15 Sport2 vs the mid level/quality stuff?
<$650 vs. >$1,000
You would need to know what kind of shooter the friend is. If this friend is truly dedicated to the profession of arms ie. taking a high round count carbine class at least once a year along with training every few weeks then nothing less than a Colt 6920 will do. However if this friend is only going to shoot a 100 rounds every few months and leave it tucked away for HD then a M&P15 will do just fine. A mediocre rifle will do just fine for your average shooter, especially if it comes down to having a mediocre rifle or having none at all. Its only when a person decides to actually send a significant amount of rounds downrange is when they'll start to notice the difference in quality.
To be truly scientific you would need 5-10 of each brand. An expensive test for sure.
This is why I value what trainers say. They see a large sample size.
Trainers and places like Battlefield Las Vegas.
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It's been well documented around here that people think Ruger’s AR 556 is a piece of shit. With that said, I still picked one up anyway. I had many different reasons as to why, but this was one of them... Ruger's Mark Gurney claims they have a couple of AR-556s at the factory that have gone beyond 20,000 rounds without breaking and another that cracked a bolt at about 19,000 rounds.
IMO, that's pretty damn impressive for a $600 rifle. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing your wife's friend is not going to put anywhere near 20,000 rounds through her AR. Maybe something to consider.
In most cases a basic rifle is just the start.
If at all serious, they’ll likely need to spend money on optics, mounts, back-up sights, magazines, ammunition, better triggers, flashlights, lasers, spare parts, pouches, cases, slings, etc.
And if someone willing to invest in such a package, doesn’t it make sense to build on a good foundation for just a couple hundred more?
It's been well documented around here that people think Ruger’s AR 556 is a piece of shit. With that said, I still picked one up anyway. I had many different reasons as to why, but this was one of them... Ruger's Mark Gurney claims they have a couple of AR-556s at the factory that have gone beyond 20,000 rounds without breaking and another that cracked a bolt at about 19,000 rounds.
IMO, that's pretty damn impressive for a $600 rifle. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing your wife's friend is not going to put anywhere near 20,000 rounds through her AR. Maybe something to consider.
I shoot on occasion with a couple guys that work at the plant. They were handed a few rifles and massive amount of ammo and told to go shoot them til they broke. Might be the same instance. They shot them at another acquaintance's place. Story is it quit being fun and felt like work pretty quick. I was a bit upset I didn't get a call.
Mrgunsngear
08-18-16, 19:05
I shoot on occasion with a couple guys that work at the plant. They were handed a few rifles and massive amount of ammo and told to go shoot them til they broke. Might be the same instance. They shot them at another acquaintance's place. Story is it quit being fun and felt like work pretty quick. I was a bit upset I didn't get a call.
Having done many 1000 round test videos I can confirm the point is right around 500-600 rounds :D
Story is it quit being fun and felt like work pretty quick. I was a bit upset I didn't get a call.
I've been involved with a few 10K round endurance tests and yes it gets old very fast.
I stopped by a local gun shop yesterday and price point AR carbines were in the $600 range. An Eagle Arms carbine was $599, a Ruger AR was $639 and a S&W MP15 was $669. Colt 6920 carbines were $985.
Well your local certainly is playing to win... Price is always going to be a function of demand, and if they can price the 6920 there and move enough of them to justify it, they're A-O-K. I don't think I've once tried to haggle a shop on a firearm price, though I am sure there are people that do. Perhaps he's just given himself some "wiggle room."
Well your local certainly is playing to win... Price is always going to be a function of demand, and if they can price the 6920 there and move enough of them to justify it, they're A-O-K. I don't think I've once tried to haggle a shop on a firearm price, though I am sure there are people that do. Perhaps he's just given himself some "wiggle room."
I've never really known any non-pawnshops to haggle on price. Even when I go online via GB or an out of state dealer to save 100-500 bucks and then when they handle the transfer say "we could have got this for you" and I respond with the price I got it for the usual response is no response.
Profit margins on guns are not very large so I understand why some of the nicer stores have prices at MSRP or close to it. They have a lot of overhead to cover and can never compete with the "wholesalers" and dealers who are mostly online without any overhead.
I'm aware the margins are razor thin at times... I vote with my wallet on every purchase. Usually it's trying to support my local vs the big box shops, because I like what my local does to promote the hobby. Sometimes (ammo) I'm going to hunt for the best deal. Usually it's because I'm buying a lot of it. Aside from HD rounds, I don't think I've bought less than a thousand rounds in a purchase in some time. Gun shows... I'll work over a price at a gun show, though usually you need to just to get back to reality.
Alright I'm gonna cut thru the BS and tell ya how 99% of most first time AR owners are gonna go. As soon as you can afford a decent entry level rifle that's what you'll get. Then after some range time you'll start to get a feel for what you like & don't like. Add some accessories & upgrades, then pull half of them off and stick them in a drawer cause they either didn't work as advertised or you didn't know what you were doing. The you'll set your sights on your 'next rifle' and buy it. But you won't get rid of your first one. Your good rifle becomes your 'SHTF' rifle and the first one gets rebuilt into something different. Next thing ya know you have five or six of them lying around while your wife asks why you need more than one.
My BCM isn't as nice as my Radical Firearms. But they both work, and for civvy use either is fine IMHO. I've also bought uppers from Anderson, Palmetto State Armory and Alpha Shooting Sports. It's all been good gear that's never let me down. Reliability has as much to do with maintenance, and quality of mags & ammo.
Ouch. Ya had me till "Radical Firearms".
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Alright I'm gonna cut thru the BS and tell ya how 99% of most first time AR owners are gonna go. As soon as you can afford a decent entry level rifle that's what you'll get. Then after some range time you'll start to get a feel for what you like & don't like. Add some accessories & upgrades, then pull half of them off and stick them in a drawer cause they either didn't work as advertised or you didn't know what you were doing. The you'll set your sights on your 'next rifle' and buy it. But you won't get rid of your first one. Your good rifle becomes your 'SHTF' rifle and the first one gets rebuilt into something different. Next thing ya know you have five or six of them lying around while your wife asks why you need more than one.
My BCM isn't as nice as my Radical Firearms. But they both work, and for civvy use either is fine IMHO. I've also bought uppers from Anderson, Palmetto State Armory and Alpha Shooting Sports. It's all been good gear that's never let me down. Reliability has as much to do with maintenance, and quality of mags & ammo.
Your BCM isn't as good as your Radical?
I'm hoping that's a typo.
My budget rifle is a 300 blk upper on a home assembled group of parts.
My build has been perfect
300 blk 9in upoer by aac
Seekins lower without the trigger guard
Alg lpk with trigger
Miad grip
Phase 5 pistol tube
H2 buffer and carbine spring
My better rifle will be in 308 win..one day.
You get what you pay for.
When i hear budget build, i tune out. It usually means a cheap no name rifle for 500
Buy what you want. Your going to do it anyways. Just buy it and live with it. Stop trying to justify it to everyone
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Doc Safari
09-28-16, 15:35
Here's a new angle for some people (it was for me): I've been a "nothing but Colt or BCM" man since 2010. I've had nary a problem with either brand, except: do I want my "truck gun" to be a thousand-dollar rifle if it's going to be "carried a lot, shot a little" in all kinds of weather and abusive conditions on the ranch?
My solution was to "put away" my top tier AR's for SHTF and for shooting during actual serious range trips and possible future training classes.
I decided on a Smith M&P Sport II as my "truck gun." Let that be the one that gets rained on, caught in dust storms, dropped, sat on, kicked by the horse, or (God forbid) let that be the one that gets stolen if something that bad has to happen to one of my AR's.
I'm satisfied that pressing a $650 brand name AR into service as the one that gets the abuse was a kind of catharsis because I knew at a little over half the price of my Grade A M4's I didn't mind calling it "expendable."
I won't go into the "good points" of a Top Tier AR. You can read the chart, but here are some pros and cons of the Smith:
PROS
1. Bolt was marked MP. I was surprised at this. I expected it to be crap shoot quality and I planned to have a spare just for it.
2. Bolt carrier key was staked pretty well, maybe just a notch less than a Colt or BCM, but still probably adequate.
3. Armornite coating, as I've been reading, is probably as good as Glock's coatings for corrosion resistance.
4. It shoots, and was just as reliable as my top tier AR's, although I didn't push 1,000 rounds through it in one session. I tried to simulate what
might happen if I shot all the ammo in my vest during an encounter. The gun ran fine. This was approximately 150-160 rounds with little time
to cool between magazines.
CONS:
1. The supplied handguard was cheesy and toy-like, with no heat shield at all. It got ditched for a real one within the first two magazines.
2. The castle nut was barely staked in place. I fixed that in about five minutes with the tip of a Phillips screwdriver and a hammer.
3. The trigger guard is part of the receiver and not a separate piece. It's pretty thick material, but I have mixed feelings about that.
4. The hammer is MIM, or cast, or whatever terminology ya wanna use. I assume the other FCG parts are also. We'll see if within 1,000 rounds
I'm putting in a better LPK.
5. The bore isn't chrome lined, but maybe the fancy coating is good enough. The gun is dang accurate.
So, for a little over the price of a Glock, I got a "good enough" AR to be an expendable truck gun. The reliability at the number of rounds I subjected it to (in other words, not a training class level of round count) was acceptable. I was able to "fix" little issues with no big whoop. My one worry is that the hammer will eventually break prematurely, but maybe not---MIM has come a long way.
What do you think?
Alright I'm gonna cut thru the BS and tell ya how 99% of most first time AR owners are gonna go. As soon as you can afford a decent entry level rifle that's what you'll get. Then after some range time you'll start to get a feel for what you like & don't like. Add some accessories & upgrades, then pull half of them off and stick them in a drawer cause they either didn't work as advertised or you didn't know what you were doing. The you'll set your sights on your 'next rifle' and buy it. But you won't get rid of your first one. Your good rifle becomes your 'SHTF' rifle and the first one gets rebuilt into something different. Next thing ya know you have five or six of them lying around while your wife asks why you need more than one.
My BCM isn't as nice as my Radical Firearms. But they both work, and for civvy use either is fine IMHO. I've also bought uppers from Anderson, Palmetto State Armory and Alpha Shooting Sports. It's all been good gear that's never let me down. Reliability has as much to do with maintenance, and quality of mags & ammo.
I laughed out loud. Thanks for the "funny."
C4
Doc G, I did the same math and went with a PSA DIY rifle. My first one checked ALL the boxes and had been excellent. By being patient, waiting for sales and free shipping, it cost $487.
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Doc Safari
09-28-16, 16:03
I will say, though, that there is no excuse for buying a second-rate AR except:
1. You can't afford better even if you wait and save more money.
2. You want a beater so you can save your good stuff for serious work.
3. You want a range toy and nothing more.
I will say, though, that there is no excuse for buying a second-rate AR except:
1. You can't afford better even if you wait and save more money.
2. You want a beater so you can save your good stuff for serious work.
3. You want a range toy and nothing more.
Agreed. Budget builds are for AFTER you have several no-compromise carbines nicely set up.
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Mysteryman
09-28-16, 19:17
Agreed. Budget builds are for AFTER you have several no-compromise carbines nicely set up.
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If you have one quality rifle why would you waste money on a sub par "budget build"?? I'm a fan of one is none and two is one, so having two quality rifles is adequate and funds are better spent on training and ammo.
MM
If you have one quality rifle why would you waste money on a sub par "budget build"?? I'm a fan of one is none and two is one, so having two quality rifles is adequate and funds are better spent on training and ammo.
MM
Maybe two is sufficient for you. I have and need 5 top quality. Others are trunk and cache guns. They are relatively inexpensive, but not "sub par" from a likely, practical use standpoint. I'll spend my money my way - you do the same, Mysterymeat.
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The truth is that anyone who is going to buy a budget rifle like a S&W Sport or Ruger is not likely to ever buy enough ammo to ever tell the difference or see any short comings. As a matter of fact I would bet that 99 out of 100 AR owners will never buy or shoot enough to really reap the benefits of a high end rifle. What are the chances that someone who can only afford to buy a sub $1000 gun is going to be able to afford to drop thousands and thousands of dollars on ammo? And the other side of it is that some people do take more time and save more money to buy a high end rifle and spend all their money on a gun leaving themselves short on cash to buy a huge stockpile of ammo. I mean really here guys. I keep seeing "a rifle I would bet my life on" which that's just a bunch of shit. A Sport II or Ruger, or whatever is going to fire in a self defense scenario. My local range has rental Smith Sports that have thousands and thousands of rounds thru them with very little cleaning and they said they have had no issues to speak of. And where are you guys living that you think in a defense situation you could run a gun so hard that you would have issues? Read the statistics on how many self defense shootings there are, then how many of those are with a rifle, then out of those how many rounds are fired on average. It's so minuscule that it should never enter your head as a viable reason why you have a high end gun. The real reason for an exotic high end rifle is purely because one "can" buy one. Just like cars a Hyundai is going to get you to work just the same as a Bentley. The Bentley does do it with more style though.
Any rifle can be prone to an issue, but more times than not with an AR it's more likely to be bad ammo that causes a problem than it is the actual gun. The AR platform is extremely reliable in both its most basic, entry level form, and in the more exotic higher end form. So buy what you can afford, and if you're going to buy an entry level gun just try to stick with the big companies that are known for great customer service like Smith and Ruger. For the guys that own high end guns, just enjoy them and maybe instead of shitting all over the lower end stuff maybe try to encourage people to exersize their 2nd amendment within their budget and enjoy the wonderful hobby of shooting. Never before have I witnessed the kind of brand whoring as I have in this community. Get over it guys and just enjoy what you have.
I will say, though, that there is no excuse for buying a second-rate AR except:
1. You can't afford better even if you wait and save more money.
2. You want a beater so you can save your good stuff for serious work.
3. You want a range toy and nothing more.
This is life man. There are different classes of people and not everyone can afford the best stuff, nor should they be put down or demeaned for that. I could say there is no excuse for buying a shit house unless you can't afford a better one. So maybe everyone who has a house that isn't at least $250,000 is living in a pile of shit and should be ashamed. Or how about if you don't have a new luxury high end car then you're driving a piece of shit. Besides you're 1 million times more likely to be killed in a shit, unsafe car than you are in a gun fight. Some of you guys need to take a chill pill on this stuff. This is a hobby and some of you take it to the extreme, which is your right to do and it's great to enjoy something so much that you are passionate about it. But there are other things in people's lives that are way more likely to happen that will kill them and way more priorities that should take precidence over having an expensive gun. People have been killing and fighting people for centuries with sub par weapons.
1_click_off
09-28-16, 20:31
🍿 this is gonna be good.
�� this is gonna be good.
These always go the same way. I just don't get it with this place. I stayed out of this thread for 9 pages and I just couldn't keep my mouth shut anymore. I've never seen such a shit show with a bunch of people that are supposed to share the same interest. Besides, like I said about the house and car thing above. I see a lot of pictures here of pretty, high end AR15s sitting on the trunk or in the bed of some hunk of shit old car or truck, and these are the same guys that are saying that there is no excuse not to buy a high end AR, while they have a much higher chance of getting in an accident in their death trap of a vehicle because suspension is old, tires are worn, brakes are bad, etc, etc. Oh, but they wouldn't trust their life with a Smith and Wesson Sport. It's just laughable. I love this place, I get a lot of great info and I've learned a ton and built a great collection of very nice guns with the knowledge that I got here. But there is a place at the table for everyone and in this case the point they are trying to make isn't even a factor. People just don't shoot enough to see a difference in most cases. So why not just support gun ownership and help people make the best decision that they can within their financial means instead of telling them that what they can afford is a bunch of shit.
Life is simply too short to waste on lesser, sub par guns.
Some people deserve a Spikes tactical rifle. These people also listen to Florida Georgia Line, enjoy Auburn football, and think Jeff Gordon is cool.
So yes, those people deserve Spikes.
Me. I follow a different path.
This is life man. There are different classes of people and not everyone can afford the best stuff, nor should they be put down or demeaned for that. I could say there is no excuse for buying a shit house unless you can't afford a better one. So maybe everyone who has a house that isn't at least $250,000 is living in a pile of shit and should be ashamed. Or how about if you don't have a new luxury high end car then you're driving a piece of shit. Besides you're 1 million times more likely to be killed in a shit, unsafe car than you are in a gun fight. Some of you guys need to take a chill pill on this stuff. This is a hobby and some of you take it to the extreme, which is your right to do and it's great to enjoy something so much that you are passionate about it. But there are other things in people's lives that are way more likely to happen that will kill them and way more priorities that should take precidence over having an expensive gun. People have been killing and fighting people for centuries with sub par weapons.
Youre comparing thousands of dollars over a short period (car loan) to 2 hundred for a lifetime investement. If you seriously can't afford a colt, you should be looking at an ak, or just a decent pistol an d a case of ammo. This forum is for people who want to run the shit out of their guns. Will a sub par gun work? Sure, but it's not as good as the other stuff. Realistically, saving 2 hundred dollars extra in a year is not impossible for most Americans.
For cars, money equates more to performance than safety, so it's not a good analogy imo.
...and firefly, I like FGL, and buy good shit. Don't hate, bro.
But there is a place at the table for everyone and in this case the point they are trying to make isn't even a factor. People just don't shoot enough to see a difference in most cases. So why not just support gun ownership and help people make the best decision that they can within their financial means instead of telling them that what they can afford is a bunch of shit.
I completely appreciate your opinion and think that it is indeed a valid one, I truly do. With that being said I also learned quite a bit on this forum and as such my first purchase was a DDM4 V5, which I consider it money well spent. After that and the now 4 AR's I have owned I have come to the some of the same conclusions as everyone else on this board, that BCM and DD make a fine rifle as do many others, most of which range from approximately $700- $3,000. I have worked as a range safety officer and sales at a gunshop and range for over 3 years and I have seen a good amount of failures from companies that have had known quality issues in which are brought up on this board. I do agree that the lack of knowledge of this platform is most likely the cause of 90% of failures in civilian and military use, and that training is fundamentally lacking across the board for most AR owners. With this, though is my said opinion and nothing more. I have my own valid experiences to draw from and I am sure that you have yours, thus every opinion is valid in it's own right, and as such deserves respect regardless of how you view it. With that being said I hope that you will take this board as a source of knowledge that deserves to be criticized through your own testing and evaluation. This is what I hope that you take away from this board regardless of who tells you otherwise.
This question is for the guys who are running higher quality AR's. How many rounds are you firing before you have to replace the barrel on your carbine?
wildcard600
09-28-16, 22:18
Youre comparing thousands of dollars over a short period (car loan) to 2 hundred for a lifetime investement. If you seriously can't afford a colt, you should be looking at an ak, or just a decent pistol an d a case of ammo. This forum is for people who want to run the shit out of their guns. Will a sub par gun work? Sure, but it's not as good as the other stuff. Realistically, saving 2 hundred dollars extra in a year is not impossible for most Americans.
For cars, money equates more to performance than safety, so it's not a good analogy imo.
...and firefly, I like FGL, and buy good shit. Don't hate, bro.
Bold is the truth.
If a shit box car vs. a really good one was a 200-300 dollar difference you can bet your ass I would spend the money. Same goes for firearms.
I know folks who scoff at paying $800 for a Colt "cause its too expensive" but have $150 a month cell phone plans and $500 a month car payments. Makes no sense to me.
I also have a cheapo PSA gun that i put together for banging around in the jeep, camping and when i'm doing work around the property. Its been dead nuts reliable with brass and now runs steel like a champ since i got the kinks worked out. If the SHTF while i'm doing one of the above mentioned activities, I trust it to run. BUT as soon as I get back home the PSA is getting tossed aside and the BCM's are coming out simply because I trust them MORE. Alot more.
Youre comparing thousands of dollars over a short period (car loan) to 2 hundred for a lifetime investement. If you seriously can't afford a colt, you should be looking at an ak, or just a decent pistol an d a case of ammo. This forum is for people who want to run the shit out of their guns. Will a sub par gun work? Sure, but it's not as good as the other stuff. Realistically, saving 2 hundred dollars extra in a year is not impossible for most Americans.
For cars, money equates more to performance than safety, so it's not a good analogy imo.
...and firefly, I like FGL, and buy good shit. Don't hate, bro.
I'm so sick of hearing this $200 shit. Show me where you can buy a Colt for $750 please. Because my local shops actually do have the Sport IIs and the Rugers on sale just about every other month for $550. I have yet to ever see a full blown ready to shoot colt for $750. I was just looking at prices the other day and they were between $900 and $1100 depending on which model and where you got it, and the lower end of that range was mostly the OEM models that still need furniture. Plus you have to pay for FFL or taxes. So you're talking about a difference of $400-$500 when its all said and done. Which yes, to a lot of people that is just not an option for them. Some folks would rather buy a S&W Sport, some ammo, and maybe a self defense pistol instead of just a Colt AR. If you haven't been paying attention to the financial state of our country it's really bad. More people than not are living paycheck to paycheck, so yes that's a lot of money to a lot of people. Especially When instead they can walk in to the local store and walk out under $600 with a rifle that comes with a magazine and a couple boxes of ammo and go have some fun.
The real benefit of a higher end gun is in its longevity. Which in order to see those benefits one would have to shoot quite a bit. Which is my entire point here. If someone is struggling over whether they can save another few hundred dollars to get a better rifle I seriously doubt they will have the kind of financial resources to put enough ammo thru their gun to see the real difference.
Hey, I have expensive high end guns and I love and enjoy the hell out of them. I'm just saying that for most people here they will never shoot enough to see a difference. And the folks that are shooting tens of thousands of rounds, they aren't the ones coming here asking about these entry level guns Anyway. I say try to steer these guys towards the big names that have great customer service like Smith and Ruger, and just try to encourage them to get out as much as they can and learn their weapon, instead of telling them they are buying a hunk of shit that's going to explode in their hands after a few magazines.
FWIW, I bought plenty of 6920s for $850 in 2016.
wildcard600
09-28-16, 22:49
I'm so sick of hearing this $200 shit. Show me where you can buy a Colt for $750 please. Because my local shops actually do have the Sport IIs and the Rugers on sale just about every other month for $550. I have yet to ever see a full blown ready to shoot colt for $750. I was just looking at prices the other day and they were between $900 and $1100 depending on which model and where you got it, and the lower end of that range was mostly the OEM models that still need furniture. Plus you have to pay for FFL or taxes. So you're talking about a difference of $400-$500 when its all said and done. Which yes, to a lot of people that is just not an option for them. Some folks would rather buy a S&W Sport, some ammo, and maybe a self defense pistol instead of just a Colt AR. If you haven't been paying attention to the financial state of our country it's really bad. More people than not are living paycheck to paycheck, so yes that's a lot of money to a lot of people. Especially When instead they can walk in to the local store and walk out under $600 with a rifle that comes with a magazine and a couple boxes of ammo and go have some fun.
The real benefit of a higher end gun is in its longevity. Which in order to see those benefits one would have to shoot quite a bit. Which is my entire point here. If someone is struggling over whether they can save another few hundred dollars to get a better rifle I seriously doubt they will have the kind of financial resources to put enough ammo thru their gun to see the real difference.
Hey, I have expensive high end guns and I love and enjoy the hell out of them. I'm just saying that for most people here they will never shoot enough to see a difference. And the folks that are shooting tens of thousands of rounds, they aren't the ones coming here asking about these entry level guns Anyway. I say try to steer these guys towards the big names that have great customer service like Smith and Ruger, and just try to encourage them to get out as much as they can and learn their weapon, instead of telling them they are buying a hunk of shit that's going to explode in their hands after a few magazines.
The local walmart had 6920's on clearance for $699 late last year cause they weren't selling. Now that Hillary is looking like she has a real shot at the presidency maybe people are buying up Colt's again? SW and Ruger appear to either have much more production capacity and can spit their guns out at a faster rate, or they are not selling at a high enough volume for the price to creep up (I.E. less desirable).
Maybe the prices are higher right now, but even 8 months ago I couldn't turn around too fast in a gun store or else my junk would slap up against the racks of 6920's for $799.
I'm so sick of hearing this $200 shit. Show me where you can buy a Colt for $750 please. Because my local shops actually do have the Sport IIs and the Rugers on sale just about every other month for $550. I have yet to ever see a full blown ready to shoot colt for $750. I was just looking at prices the other day and they were between $900 and $1100 depending on which model and where you got it, and the lower end of that range was mostly the OEM models that still need furniture. Plus you have to pay for FFL or taxes. So you're talking about a difference of $400-$500 when its all said and done. Which yes, to a lot of people that is just not an option for them. Some folks would rather buy a S&W Sport, some ammo, and maybe a self defense pistol instead of just a Colt AR. If you haven't been paying attention to the financial state of our country it's really bad. More people than not are living paycheck to paycheck, so yes that's a lot of money to a lot of people. Especially When instead they can walk in to the local store and walk out under $600 with a rifle that comes with a magazine and a couple boxes of ammo and go have some fun.
The real benefit of a higher end gun is in its longevity. Which in order to see those benefits one would have to shoot quite a bit. Which is my entire point here. If someone is struggling over whether they can save another few hundred dollars to get a better rifle I seriously doubt they will have the kind of financial resources to put enough ammo thru their gun to see the real difference.
Hey, I have expensive high end guns and I love and enjoy the hell out of them. I'm just saying that for most people here they will never shoot enough to see a difference. And the folks that are shooting tens of thousands of rounds, they aren't the ones coming here asking about these entry level guns Anyway. I say try to steer these guys towards the big names that have great customer service like Smith and Ruger, and just try to encourage them to get out as much as they can and learn their weapon, instead of telling them they are buying a hunk of shit that's going to explode in their hands after a few magazines.
You're still talking about a difference of a few hundred vs a few thousand guy. They are far from the same.
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Wife's friend is looking to purchase an AR soon. They're out of state, so they can't just sample any of mine.
In terms of reliability, what kind of difference are we talking about for defensive usage between something like a S&W M&P15 Sport2 vs the mid level/quality stuff?
<$650 vs. >$1,000
I bought my friends PSA AR's for christmas one year. I have yet to see or hear of a single malfunction out of those rifles, and they get shot a fair amount. HOWEVER, I inspected them well, and checked them over before gifting them, as well. The likelyhood of failure goes up when you save money, and I wanted to insure that QA/QC was G2G.
The local walmart had 6920's on clearance for $699 late last year cause they weren't selling. Now that Hillary is looking like she has a real shot at the presidency maybe people are buying up Colt's again? SW and Ruger appear to either have much more production capacity and can spit their guns out at a faster rate, or they are not selling at a high enough volume for the price to creep up (I.E. less desirable).
Maybe the prices are higher right now, but even 8 months ago I couldn't turn around too fast in a gun store or else my junk would slap up against the racks of 6920's for $799.
No, they were on clearance because Wal-Mart as a chain refuses to carry them any longer for political reasons, and liquidated them.
I have come to the realization that there are plenty of AR owners who have no clue what they are talking about. I have seen some guns that wouldn't make it past one day in a carbine course.
More recently one of our own members here, who is also a police officer contacted me after a new S&W carbine came apart (receiver extension/castle nut) after a short stint in a qualification course.
I see so many guns that are improperly assembled or just sub par in my classes that I have to wonder how many companies can actually produce a good gun anymore.
I have come to the realization that there are plenty of AR owners who have no clue what they are talking about. I have seen some guns that wouldn't make it past one day in a carbine course.
More recently one of our own members here, who is also a police officer contacted me after a new S&W carbine came apart (receiver extension/castle nut) after a short stint in a qualification course.
I see so many guns that are improperly assembled or just sub par in my classes that I have to wonder how many companies can actually produce a good gun anymore.
This was one of the things I had to do with one of the rifles my friends got. Properly tighten and stake the castle-nut/end-plate.
Doc Safari
09-29-16, 08:56
Maybe two is sufficient for you. I have and need 5 top quality. Others are trunk and cache guns. They are relatively inexpensive, but not "sub par" from a likely, practical use standpoint. I'll spend my money my way - you do the same, Mysterymeat.
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Gospel.
Doc Safari
09-29-16, 09:07
More recently one of our own members here, who is also a police officer contacted me after a new S&W carbine came apart (receiver extension/castle nut) after a short stint in a qualification course.
Even on mine the castle nut was just barely staked in place. I admit it's a shortcoming of the S&W. But it's an easy fix. I know, I did it.
I fully expect to have to do other things to my Sport II. That MIM hammer probably won't last, but for a gun that may not see another round through it for six months I'm happy to let the $650 Smith get the "truck gun" abuse while my good stuff stays ready for a really rainy day.
Even on mine the castle nut was just barely staked in place. I admit it's a shortcoming of the S&W. But it's an easy fix. I know, I did it.
I fully expect to have to do other things to my Sport II. That MIM hammer probably won't last, but for a gun that may not see another round through it for six months I'm happy to let the $650 Smith get the "truck gun" abuse while my good stuff stays ready for a really rainy day.
But the difference is you know the difference and will use them appropriately to your personal needs/goals. Many simply refuse to accept there's a difference and will put a budget AR in the primary HD/SD/Duty role vs low count plinker, training, hunting.
It reminds me of Qs I get on say a piece of gym equipment, will it be for home use using relatively light weight or commercial use with hard use and heavy weight regularly, etc. Those details are essential to making any recs. You make them as an informed person knowing the difference, where as some just refuse to admit there's any differences. My sense is Iraqgunz is discussing the latter group.
The dilemma for me arises when an acquaintance asks me to advise them on a purchase.
Regardless of their intended use, I shy away from recommending lesser brands.
If something goes wrong with a budget rifle, that person may forever hold a low opinion of the AR.
Doc Safari
09-29-16, 10:01
But the difference is you know the difference and will use them appropriately to your personal needs/goals. Many simply refuse to accept there's a difference and will put a budget AR in the primary HD/SD/Duty role vs low count plinker, training, hunting.
It reminds me of Qs I get on say a piece of gym equipment, will it be for home use using relatively light weight or commercial use with hard use and heavy weight regularly, etc. Those details are essential to making any recs. You make them as an informed person knowing the difference, where as some just refuse to admit there's any differences. My sense is Iraqgunz is discussing the latter group.
Good Point.
And I think that's WHY WE'RE HERE.
The world is so complicated today with different manufacturers making ostensibly the same product that it's impossible for the consumer to sort out the details without doing some research. Of course, Caveat Emptor has never expired either, has it?
Go back to the early days of the AR15. Who made an SP1 besides Colt? Nobody. The choice was easy.
Now it seems like anyone can buy receivers and parts kits and open an AR company overnight. It's nuts.
To boot, even an old respected name like Smith and Wesson can make what is apparently a second-rate AR, but then anyone who has done the research would know that.
Hell, even Glock doesn't necessarily make the quality it once did or that people think it once did. But you wouldn't know that without the research.
Unfortunately, the days of simple choices are over and you have to really dig into the available information. No excuses.
Doc Safari
09-29-16, 10:08
The dilemma for me arises when an acquaintance asks me to advise them on a purchase.
Regardless of their intended use, I shy away from recommending lesser brands.
If something goes wrong with a budget rifle, that person may forever hold a low opinion of the AR.
This actually happened to me. During the 90's I bought into the lie that Bushmaster was just as good as or better than Colt. After cussing several Bushmasters for various problems, I decided the AR was a joke. It wasn't until I talked to several owners over the years did I start to think it was a brand problem rather than a design problem.
This is life man. There are different classes of people and not everyone can afford the best stuff, nor should they be put down or demeaned for that. I could say there is no excuse for buying a shit house unless you can't afford a better one. So maybe everyone who has a house that isn't at least $250,000 is living in a pile of shit and should be ashamed. Or how about if you don't have a new luxury high end car then you're driving a piece of shit. Besides you're 1 million times more likely to be killed in a shit, unsafe car than you are in a gun fight. Some of you guys need to take a chill pill on this stuff. This is a hobby and some of you take it to the extreme, which is your right to do and it's great to enjoy something so much that you are passionate about it. But there are other things in people's lives that are way more likely to happen that will kill them and way more priorities that should take precidence over having an expensive gun. People have been killing and fighting people for centuries with sub par weapons.
I don't see how it is possible to be able to afford a 550 rifle but not an 850 dollar one.
I don't see how it is possible to be able to afford a 550 rifle but not an 850 dollar one.
That's a logical fallacy of one more or less does not matter. If $550 means $850 is not a problem, if $850 is not a problem $1200 is not a problem etc. I do however advocate for saving until you can afford something worth spending money on. The issue I think a lot of people are running into now is the it's now or never, they think that if they don't buy something now they might not be able to in a few months. They could be right. I myself am at a bit of a dilemma, I have been in live for an appointment with a really well known tattoo artist for over a year. I have an appointment with him in November but I am considering canceling and buying another AR, after all I don't hear anyone talk about banning tattoos.
Good Point.
And I think that's WHY WE'RE HERE.
The world is so complicated today with different manufacturers making ostensibly the same product that it's impossible for the consumer to sort out the details without doing some research. Of course, Caveat Emptor has never expired either, has it?
Go back to the early days of the AR15. Who made an SP1 besides Colt? Nobody. The choice was easy.
Now it seems like anyone can buy receivers and parts kits and open an AR company overnight. It's nuts.
To boot, even an old respected name like Smith and Wesson can make what is apparently a second-rate AR, but then anyone who has done the research would know that.
Hell, even Glock doesn't necessarily make the quality it once did or that people think it once did. But you wouldn't know that without the research.
Unfortunately, the days of simple choices are over and you have to really dig into the available information. No excuses.
All true. I came here many moons ago at the invite or a regular member to learn about ARs. At the time I had an old BM I'd purchased used, and slapped some silly stuff on it (which in my defense was free at least) and was none the wiser really. Reading and learning helped change that and for the better.
It's interesting to note that in virtually every industry there's commercial hard use grade and hobby grade, be it tools like a drill press to vehicles, to cameras, etc. The issue is whether hobby grade will fit your needs or not, or if you wast want to not risk your life to a hobby grade tool you purchased.
But the difference is you know the difference and will use them appropriately to your personal needs/goals. Many simply refuse to accept there's a difference and will put a budget AR in the primary HD/SD/Duty role vs low count plinker, training, hunting.
It reminds me of Qs I get on say a piece of gym equipment, will it be for home use using relatively light weight or commercial use with hard use and heavy weight regularly, etc. Those details are essential to making any recs. You make them as an informed person knowing the difference, where as some just refuse to admit there's any differences. My sense is Iraqgunz is discussing the latter group.
What has given you the idea that a Sport II or Ruger AR556 can't handle a HD or SD role? You do know that most defensive situations are over within a few shots, and even if it was an awful, worst case scenario, which would be maybe a full 30 round magazine, but let's even say it's a few hundred rounds just to give you the benefit of the doubt here. That would be no different than taking the gun to the range and shooting for an hour, which last time I checked Smith and Wesson rifles aren't failing every time the owner takes it to the range.
Also I don't think anyone is saying that one of these Sport IIs or whatever is as good as the higher end rifles. At least I'm not saying that. I know that the higher end guns will perform better and longer without issues, although even they are not completely free from failures. But most people that own an AR are just not going to use their gun in situations where you would see much benefit to having a serious gun. I doubt the guy squeezing to put together $600 to buy a rifle is going to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on the ammo it would take to destroy their gun. And they are just fine weapons for SD or HD use all day long. I had a Ruger AR556 last year that I bought cheap to mess around with and that gun never once had an issue in the 8 months and over a thousand rounds that I used it for. I would've grabbed that gun in a second and felt comfortable that it was going to go bang when I squeezed the trigger. It's great to own high end stuff, but it's just not a necessity for everyone, and those people should not have to be demeaned when they come here asking for help in a decision. The bottom line is that these guns will be just fine for most people. Period.
What has given you the idea that a Sport II or Ruger AR556 can't handle a HD or SD role?
You do know that most defensive situations are over within a few shots, and even if it was an awful, worst case scenario, which would be maybe a full 30 round magazine, but let's even say it's a few hundred rounds just to give you the benefit of the doubt here. That would be no different than taking the gun to the range and shooting for an hour, which last time I checked Smith and Wesson rifles aren't failing every time the owner takes it to the range.
Also I don't think anyone is saying that one of these Sport IIs or whatever is as good as the higher end rifles. At least I'm not saying that. I know that the higher end guns will perform better and longer without issues, although even they are not completely free from failures. But most people that own an AR are just not going to use their gun in situations where you would see much benefit to having a serious gun. I doubt the guy squeezing to put together $600 to buy a rifle is going to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on the ammo it would take to destroy their gun. And they are just fine weapons for SD or HD use all day long. I had a Ruger AR556 last year that I bought cheap to mess around with and that gun never once had an issue in the 8 months and over a thousand rounds that I used it for. I would've grabbed that gun in a second and felt comfortable that it was going to go bang when I squeezed the trigger. It's great to own high end stuff, but it's just not a necessity for everyone, and those people should not have to be demeaned when they come here asking for help in a decision. The bottom line is that these guns will be just fine for most people. Period.
Nothing. I'm saying I wouldn't assign a hobby grade gun to the HD/SD role considering what's at stake. Your mileage may vary.
Some people will continue to argue and not get it. Maybe there needs to be a new site. AlmostasgoodasM4carbine.net
Doc Safari
09-29-16, 10:46
Some people will continue to argue and not get it. Maybe there needs to be a new site. AlmostasgoodasM4carbine.net
LOL. But I think it's not "arguing". "Almost as good" is NOT "just as good." I get it. Everyone knows Taurus isn't as good as Smith, but people still buy them because sometimes that's all they can afford, and maybe it's better to put the wear and tear on a beater rather than your "nearly identical but much better quality" Smith & Wesson revolver. In other words, go practice with your junk Taurus, drop it in the dirt, shoot too-hot reloads through it, get blood on it, and in general just "F" it up rather than your "good" Smith. Makes logical sense to me.
I'm lucky. I have the best. I also have the AlmostAsGoodAsTheBest because I'd rather experiment and fudge up a budget gun rather than a top tier military-grade weapon. I've always believed in having my cake and eating it too and that's how I roll.
That's a logical fallacy of one more or less does not matter. If $550 means $850 is not a problem, if $850 is not a problem $1200 is not a problem etc. I do however advocate for saving until you can afford something worth spending money on. The issue I think a lot of people are running into now is the it's now or never, they think that if they don't buy something now they might not be able to in a few months. They could be right. I myself am at a bit of a dilemma, I have been in live for an appointment with a really well known tattoo artist for over a year. I have an appointment with him in November but I am considering canceling and buying another AR, after all I don't hear anyone talk about banning tattoos.
It's fine as long as you cap it at +1. We're looking at just two numbers here, not stacking endlessly.
Unless you're the paycheck to paycheck guy and just "must have it now" I don't see the issue. If your budget allows you to set aside 150 every other week for purchases than you wait 4 additional weeks. Or, go ahead and put the purchase on a credit card. Letting a few hundred roll over to the next statement cycle isn't going to make or break anyone.
Considering the amount of my employees that are broke 2 days after payday maybe that is it's own epidemic and where this line of thinking comes from.
The total purchase if it is your first AR is going to be far over the cost of the rifle anyway.
You will need at least 5-7 mags, there's another 100 bucks.
1000rds of XM855 or XM193 will cost 350-450.
Are you adding an optic? A usable sling? Weaponlight? Weapons maintenance supplies? Depending on optic, this could cost more than the rifle. All in it will run 2,000 or so to get started. Saving 150-300 on the rifle itself is a very small part of this package at the end of it and I just don't see how it can possibly not be budgeted for whether your budget calls for this to be saved up for 6 months or 6 days.
Some people will continue to argue and not get it. Maybe there needs to be a new site. AlmostasgoodasM4carbine.netThis.
The current hue and cry of some (often recent) members demanding that a forum deliberately specialized toward a particular range on the spectrum of AR ownership and use must change to suit their broader interests and priorities should be appropriately re-focused or dialed out.
There's nothing wrong with hobby grade, budget-mindedness, and casual consumer approaches -- in their place -- which is covered well by other sites but distracts from what has traditionally been the purpose here and why many of us choose this site over the alternatives.
wildcard600
09-29-16, 11:22
No, they were on clearance because Wal-Mart as a chain refuses to carry them any longer for political reasons, and liquidated them.
Any proof to that ? WM's typical shopper does not buy $800 rifles and AR-15 sales were way down in the middle of last year everywhere. The companies official statement was that sales were slow so they phased them out. Have you inquired about ordering a 6920 or are you just basing your comment on trash talk about walmart caving to political pressure ?
Any proof to that ? WM's typical shopper does not buy $800 rifles and AR-15 sales were way down in the middle of last year everywhere. The companies official statement was that sales were slow so they phased them out. Have you inquired about ordering a 6920 or are you just basing your comment on trash talk about walmart caving to political pressure ?WM certainly wouldn't make their reasons official given their significant presence in very pro-2A communities, but considering that they not only stopped selling 6920s but all "sporting rifles" and anything high capacity, reading between the lines is easy.
Any proof to that ? WM's typical shopper does not buy $800 rifles and AR-15 sales were way down in the middle of last year everywhere. The companies official statement was that sales were slow so they phased them out. Have you inquired about ordering a 6920 or are you just basing your comment on trash talk about walmart caving to political pressure ?
I heard Wal-Mart just clearanced a lot of guns to get them moving, not that they are ceasing any sales. This sucks, they were started in AR I expect more.
This.
The current hue and cry of some (often recent) members demanding that a forum deliberately specialized toward a particular range on the spectrum of AR ownership and use must change to suit their broader interests and priorities should be appropriately re-focused or dialed out.
There's nothing wrong with hobby grade, budget-mindedness, and casual consumer approaches -- in their place -- which is covered well by other sites but distracts from what has traditionally been the purpose here and why many of us choose this site over the alternatives.
Reminds me of the high end audio forums I used to visit where some members would argue Bose and other consumer grade stuff was "just as good as X" when the purview of the forum was to discuss high end audio.
Doc Safari
09-29-16, 11:43
Reminds me of the high end audio forums I used to visit where some members would argue Bose and other consumer grade stuff was "just as good as X" when the purview of the forum was to discuss high end audio.
I disagreed with that whole philosophy until I read this post. Okay, point taken. It's supposed to be only about military-grade weapons. But in that case perhaps the point hasn't gotten across, otherwise no one would even discuss Brand X anymore.
Maybe the solution IS to dump the inferior brands into a sub-forum for Budget AR's. :confused:
I disagreed with that whole philosophy until I read this post. Okay, point taken. It's supposed to be only about military-grade weapons. But in that case perhaps the point hasn't gotten across, otherwise no one would even discuss Brand X anymore.
Maybe the solution IS to dump the inferior brands into a sub-forum for Budget AR's. :confused:
Maybe that's the answer, but I'm frankly not qualified to make the assessment of what would go where and why and do my best to learn from the SMEs and listen to the more tapped in members when it comes to all things AR. I just see some parallels to other topics/forums I have interests in.
I think that there is absolutely a need here for a sub-forum for budget ARs. I know "the other site" covers the cheap ones (as in, "cheaply made") as well as budget in significant breadth and depth, but I think the SMEs here are in a uniquely qualified position to speak to them re: quality, upgrades, repair, maintenance, etc.
Some people will continue to argue and not get it. Maybe there needs to be a new site. AlmostasgoodasM4carbine.net
Yes, some will continue to argue - and often they will read one or two posts and jump in, not grokking what is being said. What some don't seem to get in THIS thread is that many have already gotten their "Tier 1" rifles, but they choose to save $400 per on their trunk guns, or cache guns, or whatever-the-f#(+ they-damn-well-please-to-use-them-for guns. Multiplied by 3,4,5 that $400 adds up.
No one is saying good as. Just good enough. Good enough for the highly unlikely event of EVER being used, and good enough to be comforting that it is there in extremis. Their money, their choice. Screw the condescending, elitist BS. They HAVE their DDs. They KNOW the difference. They also have intelligence, life experience, and a solid grasp on reality.
Oh, and no financial stake in selling ARs.
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Lots of anecdotal data supports the conclusion that some low-cost ARs have a higher failure rate than higher-cost ARs. Some of these higher-cost ARs have earned great reputations, and I suspect, largely with good reason. Nonetheless, we have all heard stories of various low-cost ARs running for thousands of rounds without issue, potentially outshooting some higher-cost rifles, and similar stories of failures even with high end ARs. What would be helpful would be to have real data compiled and analyzed to give the consumer a failure rate. We have this for cars, allowing us to compare brands before we buy. For "serious use" applications, reliability is at the very top of most people's lists in important qualities of a fighting rifle. Accuracy, weight, and cost are factors we can compare, too, but reliability is so critical that a nice comparison chart would be of great use. The reality is that we all have to make a choice- do you buy the $550 "bargain" rifle or one that costs twice- or four times!- the cost? That $1,500 difference can buy a lot of ammo for practice, a training course, a spare rifle (or 3), or maybe even pay the rent or some tuition for your kid's school. How do we make the best decisions?
http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/how-car-brands-compare-for-reliability/
A chart. Whouda thunk it??
Good enough for the highly unlikely event of EVER being used, and good enough to be comforting that it is there in extremis.
So a security blanket... Having a gun that's good enough to never be used is mental masturbation at best, damning yourself at worst.
So a security blanket... Having a gun that's good enough to never be used is mental masturbation at best, damning yourself at worst.
See? Another knee jerk reaction from a snippet reader with a short attention span and a poor grasp of logic.
Inebriated, I hope you can sleep well at night knowing that - in the 1/2 in a million chance I need to go dig up a rifle, or that my G19 is insufficient for the occasion on the road and I need one of my trunk guns - they will manage to accurately and reliably fire all the rounds necessary. I promise.
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titsonritz
09-29-16, 12:38
No, they were on clearance because Wal-Mart as a chain refuses to carry them any longer for political reasons, and liquidated them.
Any proof to that ? WM's typical shopper does not buy $800 rifles and AR-15 sales were way down in the middle of last year everywhere. The companies official statement was that sales were slow so they phased them out. Have you inquired about ordering a 6920 or are you just basing your comment on trash talk about walmart caving to political pressure ?
WM certainly wouldn't make their reasons official given their significant presence in very pro-2A communities, but considering that they not only stopped selling 6920s but all "sporting rifles" and anything high capacity, reading between the lines is easy.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/26/news/companies/walmart-ar-15-guns/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/aug/26/walmart-discontinue-ar-15-rifles
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/8/26/wal-mart-to-stop-selling-ar-15-other-semi-automatic-rifles.html
http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/26/news/companies/walmart-ar-15-guns/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/aug/26/walmart-discontinue-ar-15-rifles
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/8/26/wal-mart-to-stop-selling-ar-15-other-semi-automatic-rifles.html
Note however WM claims that move due to "slumping demand" vs political pressure. I'd assume they decided the $ sales of such guns added to their bottom line not worth the hassle they get from selling them at this point.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/26/news/companies/walmart-ar-15-guns/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/aug/26/walmart-discontinue-ar-15-rifles
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/8/26/wal-mart-to-stop-selling-ar-15-other-semi-automatic-rifles.htmlTo clarify, I was saying that Walmart wouldn't make their reasons having to do with kowtowing to political pressure official; obviously they gave a much-reported financial justification that happened to neither jibe with national sales trends nor explain Walmart's complete removal of anything associated with scary-type rifles.
See? Another knee jerk reaction from a snippet reader with a short attention span and a poor grasp of logic.
Inebriated, I hope you can sleep well at night knowing that - in the 1/2 in a million chance I need to go dig up a rifle, or that my G19 is insufficient for the occasion on the road and I need one of my trunk guns - they will manage to accurately and reliably fire all the rounds necessary. I promise.
From where this member sits, seems to be exactly what you're engaging in above.
titsonritz
09-29-16, 12:52
Note however WM claims that move due to "slumping demand" vs political pressure. I'd assume they decided the $ sales of such guns added to their bottom line not worth the hassle they get from selling them at this point.
Petty funny, "slumping demand" my ass.
I disagreed with that whole philosophy until I read this post. Okay, point taken. It's supposed to be only about military-grade weapons. But in that case perhaps the point hasn't gotten across, otherwise no one would even discuss Brand X anymore.
Maybe the solution IS to dump the inferior brands into a sub-forum for Budget AR's. :confused:
I pointed this out to the very folks arguing (not you) for the budget ARs and was branded "keyboard commando", lol. Professional grade is the theme for THIS forum. Regardless of a budget gun's suitability or lack thereof for a particular purpose.
Alas, some people just like to argue. [emoji57]
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Doc Safari
09-29-16, 12:58
I pointed this out to the very folks arguing (not you) for the budget ARs and was branded "keyboard commando", lol. Professional grade is the theme for THIS forum. Regardless of a budget gun's suitability or lack thereof for a particular purpose.
Alas, some people just like to argue. [emoji57]
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It just seems to me that if a forum wants to dedicate itself to top tier weaponry, the only way to curtail the interruptions of "hey what's wrong with my Del-Ton" is to acknowledge that Del-Ton exists, and relegate all discussions of it and other inferior brands to an area where it immediately becomes clear that it's been sent to the bottom feeder forum for a reason.
It seems like all the counter arguments in the world don't get the point across as fast as the person seeing that his thread has been moved to the "junk AR" forum. It sort of gives the author a "light going on" moment where they start to ask themselves, "Wow, my post on my new proud AR has been sent to the Junk AR forum without even any discussion. Maybe I should do some reading and find out why no one's going to agree with me that my Del-Ton is better than Colt."
It just seems to me that if a forum wants to dedicate itself to top tier weaponry, the only way to curtail the interruptions of "hey what's wrong with my Del-Ton" is to acknowledge that Del-Ton exists, and relegate all discussions of it and other inferior brands to an area where it immediately becomes clear that it's been sent to the bottom feeder forum for a reason.
It seems like all the counter arguments in the world don't get the point across as fast as the person seeing that his thread has been moved to the "junk AR" forum. It sort of gives the author a "light going on" moment where they start to ask themselves, "Wow, my post on my new proud AR has been sent to the Junk AR forum without even any discussion. Maybe I should do some reading and find out why no one's going to agree with me that my Del-Ton is better than Colt."
I think it could serve many purposes. A lot of people (most?) have done no research or have had bad intel by do-gooders when they purchase their first AR. It is what it is. If they come here after a purchase seeking advice, why not give it to them? A sub-forum, label it whatever you want, would be a good place. If that old saying "good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment" is true, then if they can come here and have an enlightening moment and become another "quality AR" disciple, all the better.
My perspective comes from after carrying one in the employ of Uncle Sam, when I got my own, it was a POS. I was had in a bad trade. But I turned lemons into lemonade with the help of people here, eventually got BCM, just got a DD. I would guess I am not the only one. But the big advantage was that after I got a ration of shit about getting a POS, people were helpful in helping me learn about the rifle and how to maintain it/shoot it/troubleshoot it, etc.
From where this member sits, seems to be exactly what you're engaging in above.
And yet post count does not equal correct. I expected better reading comprehension, Will. If you read everything, please point to what I said - specifically and in context - that leads you to believe I'm doing the "good as" thing? I don't believe any who read it can support that position.
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These always go the same way. I just don't get it with this place. I stayed out of this thread for 9 pages and I just couldn't keep my mouth shut anymore. I've never seen such a shit show with a bunch of people that are supposed to share the same interest. Besides, like I said about the house and car thing above. I see a lot of pictures here of pretty, high end AR15s sitting on the trunk or in the bed of some hunk of shit old car or truck, and these are the same guys that are saying that there is no excuse not to buy a high end AR, while they have a much higher chance of getting in an accident in their death trap of a vehicle because suspension is old, tires are worn, brakes are bad, etc, etc. Oh, but they wouldn't trust their life with a Smith and Wesson Sport. It's just laughable. I love this place, I get a lot of great info and I've learned a ton and built a great collection of very nice guns with the knowledge that I got here. But there is a place at the table for everyone and in this case the point they are trying to make isn't even a factor. People just don't shoot enough to see a difference in most cases. So why not just support gun ownership and help people make the best decision that they can within their financial means instead of telling them that what they can afford is a bunch of shit.
The problem is that this isn't a "hobbyist" forum. So you are less likely to find people that view AR's as range toys.
With Colt AR's being well under $1k, there is really no need to buy some $500 dollar AR to bet your life on. Save your money, and get something good. I do understand that not everyones life is worth the same, but at the very least, buy a Colt.
I do follow what your saying. Is a S&W Sport (or whatever low level AR brand you like) better than a sharp stick? Well, of course it is, but a little more saving up, gets you into a gun that will holds its value, be a much better barter/trade weapon and is built to a known/set standard. In a perfect world, the money that people saved buying a $500 dollar AR would go to a carbine class (so they actually know how to use it), but alas, that is a pipe dream.....
C4
Reminds me of the high end audio forums I used to visit where some members would argue Bose and other consumer grade stuff was "just as good as X" when the purview of the forum was to discuss high end audio.
Did you have a full-on audiophile system in every room in your home? In your workshop? Same system in your work truck as in your main ride?
Likely, you had front line gear in one, maybe two rooms, and in your primary vehicle. Not everywhere, because it wasn't necessary.
You had great gear where you needed it and good enough where the need was much less.
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Doc Safari
09-29-16, 13:19
The problem is that this isn't a "hobbyist" forum. So you are less likely to find people that view AR's as range toys.
C4
And I think that right there is the rub. I think the normalcy bias is that every forum is a "hobbyist" forum. It's a hurdle to overcome to promote a forum as being primarily for professional operators.
I owe a debt of gratitude to this forum for pointing me to Colt and BCM when I was literally almost on the phone to order another Bushmaster.
I've got my Colt and BCM now. They are tier one, professional grade M4's, and I appreciate this forum for steering me right.
But I like my Grade B Smith Sport II for what it is as well.
I'd like to be able to discuss my Colt and BCM on a professional level, and maybe how it relates to training, actual SD situations, etc.
But I also want to be able to ask someone, "What should I do to upgrade my Smith?"
Just a thought.
Did you have a full-on audiophile system in every room in your home? In your workshop? Same system in your work truck as in your main ride?
Likely, you had front line gear in one, maybe two rooms, and in your primary vehicle. Not everywhere, because it wasn't necessary.
You had great gear where you needed it and good enough where the need was much less.
Sent from my XT1585 using TapatalkExcept his point was about a forum that's purpose was to discuss high end gear getting hijacked by folks wanting to chit-chat about and justify their other purchases.
The discussion isn't about the utility or lack thereof (for whatever purpose) of hobby-grade equipment; the discussion is about the forum's purpose and that purpose being undermined.
And yet post count does not equal correct. I expected better reading comprehension, Will. If you read everything, please point to what I said - specifically and in context - that leads you to believe I'm doing the "good as" thing? I don't believe any who read it can support that position.
Where did I say anything about post count? Reading comp indeed!
Except his point was about a forum that's purpose was to discuss high end gear getting hijacked by folks wanting to chit-chat about and justify their other purchases.
The discussion isn't about the utility or lack thereof (for whatever purpose) of hobby-grade equipment; the discussion is about the forum's purpose and that purpose being undermined.
TF you yapping about? Read the last page or so and decided to weigh in? Maybe suck up and get some brownie points?
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Where did I say anything about post count? Reading comp indeed!
Tres facile.
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Did you have a full-on audiophile system in every room in your home? In your workshop? Same system in your work truck as in your main ride?
Likely, you had front line gear in one, maybe two rooms, and in your primary vehicle. Not everywhere, because it wasn't necessary.
You had great gear where you needed it and good enough where the need was much less.
Ugh, you're doing exactly what you're accusing others of doing as a " knee jerk reaction from a snippet reader." I said as much a few pages back to
Doc Glockster, and if you had read the thread you'd see I'm not claiming every AR or gun people own has to be front line gear.
If we take a moment, to put things in perspective, those of you with your CCW (and that recommend buying a low end AR), what pistol do you carry? Can I give you a SCCY or a Hi-point to bet your life on??? No you say? Same goes for AR's....
C4
And I think that right there is the rub. I think the normalcy bias is that every forum is a "hobbyist" forum. It's a hurdle to overcome to promote a forum as being primarily for professional operators.
I owe a debt of gratitude to this forum for pointing me to Colt and BCM when I was literally almost on the phone to order another Bushmaster.
I've got my Colt and BCM now. They are tier one, professional grade M4's, and I appreciate this forum for steering me right.
But I like my Grade B Smith Sport II for what it is as well.
I'd like to be able to discuss my Colt and BCM on a professional level, and maybe how it relates to training, actual SD situations, etc.
But I also want to be able to ask someone, "What should I do to upgrade my Smith?"
Just a thought.
There are all kinds of gun forums on the net. Not everyone will fit you. Pick and choose. Unfortunately, there are few "professional" forums out there of this size.
You have the luxury of disposable income. You can buy high end and low end AR's. What is important though, is that you recognize the difference.
C4
If we take a moment, to put things in perspective, those of you with your CCW (and that recommend buying a low end AR), what pistol do you carry? Can I give you a SCCY or a Hi-point to bet your life on??? No you say? Same goes for AR's....
C4
Good point and analogy.
Doc Safari
09-29-16, 14:00
If we take a moment, to put things in perspective, those of you with your CCW (and that recommend buying a low end AR), what pistol do you carry? Can I give you a SCCY or a Hi-point to bet your life on??? No you say? Same goes for AR's....
C4
That's reducing it to the ridiculous, though.
I don't think any seriously informed person would "recommend" a low-end AR even if that person sees a niche for owning one.
I have a Glock. That doesn't mean I wouldn't carry a Ruger LC9 on another day, if I thought a Ruger LC9 was "good enough" and knew enough about them to know their limitations. It doesn't mean I'd expect a Ruger LC9 to survive battlefield conditions in a training class. But if I've done the research and found out that the gun is reliable in an SD situation that most people will encounter, then it's "god enough" even if it's not a top tier weapon.
All right, I get it: someone who posts how great their DPMS is probably hasn't done their homework. A person recommending a DPMS doesn't know what he's talking about.
But someone who says, "I bought my DPMS as a truck gun and for malfunction drills and showing my kid how to shoot" isn't making it the equal of a Colt or Noveske, or whatever.
It's a different scenario.
I keep my top tier weapons for the barbarian hordes coming over the hill. For stopping a coyote from threatening my cows in the middle of a dust storm I think my Smith will prolly get the job done, and my Colt/BCM doesn't have to take the bad weather and ranch abuse just for me to dispatch a predator.
That's why the bottom line question is always, "What do you want the gun for?"
That's reducing it to the ridiculous, though.
I don't think any seriously informed person would "recommend" a low-end AR even if that person sees a niche for owning one.
That's just it. Most people DO BELIEVE that they are "informed" and do recommend low end AR's for LE and Civy use.
I have a Glock. That doesn't mean I wouldn't carry a Ruger LC9 on another day, if I thought a Ruger LC9 was "good enough" and knew enough about them to know their limitations. It doesn't mean I'd expect a Ruger LC9 to survive battlefield conditions in a training class. But if I've done the research and found out that the gun is reliable in an SD situation that most people will encounter, then it's "god enough" even if it's not a top tier weapon.
For me, about the lowest quality gun I would bet my life on would be a Glock or S&W.
All right, I get it: someone who posts how great their DPMS is probably hasn't done their homework. A person recommending a DPMS doesn't know what he's talking about.
Depends. They might have done a ton of research (on a forum that is frequented by "hobbyist" shooters).
C4
That's just it. Most people DO BELIEVE that they are "informed" and do recommend low end AR's for LE and Civy use.
For me, about the lowest quality gun I would bet my life on would be a Glock or S&W.
Depends. They might have done a ton of research (on a forum that is frequented by "hobbyist" shooters).
C4
But, but they have shot at 100yds from a bench a few times over the past years and the weapon has never let them down! And the three shot groups are great!
Doc Safari
09-29-16, 14:14
There are all kinds of gun forums on the net. Not everyone will fit you. Pick and choose. Unfortunately, there are few "professional" forums out there of this size.
You have the luxury of disposable income. You can buy high end and low end AR's. What is important though, is that you recognize the difference.
C4
Point taken, and you and I agree more than you might think. I think that's why the differentiation between a professional forum and a hobbyist forum needs to be immediate, obvious, and error-free. Otherwise every hobbyist will bring their bias to a professional forum every time.
Still, everyone criticizes TOS for the sheer volume of idiotic advice and that's why I appreciate this forum.
I can remember a recent post I read on another forum where the person wanted to know how to stake their castle nut, and at least a few replies were "My castle nut has never loosened. You don't need to stake it."
Well, that's one reason people come to a professional forum: to get real advice from people who really know how to tell you to upgrade your second-string purchase rather than telling you, "You got a Del-Ton, Bro, I wouldn't worry about the quality. It's probably good to go."
A person should always opt for quality if they can afford it (or even if they can't). But isn't it more productive to steer people to the truth and offer fixes to their mistakes rather than to constantly say "What you bought is crap. We can't help you." Okay, I know, at some point some choices really are so bad they can't be fixed, but I've always opted to take lemons and at least attempt making lemonade rather than saying "Them's some sour lemons you got there."
Just my humble opinion.
I, too, get tired of seeing posts from people that want to tell everyone that Del-Ton is better than Colt even though Del-Ton has literally been around about 15 minutes. I'd love to see those posts disappear. Trouble is they won't. EVER.
Better to provide a way to make it clear to the site visitor right up front that the forum is geared toward professional quality equipment and not range toys than to expect people to somehow naturally accrue to that by saying, "Read some past threads first, then see if you really want to post about your Del-Ton." I think that's terribly off-putting and unwelcoming. It doesn't make the person want to stay and learn (and maybe patronize the advertisers).
I know I probably stepped on some toes with that last statement, but I'm just speaking from the standpoint of a business person who understands marketing and not pissing off future customers as soon as they walk in the door.
Really, I'm trying to offer a constructive perspective and not trying to be argumentative.
Maybe that's the answer, but I'm frankly not qualified to make the assessment of what would go where and why and do my best to learn from the SMEs and listen to the more tapped in members when it comes to all things AR. I just see some parallels to other topics/forums I have interests in.
I agree, in my opinion, you can purchase an whatever AR you want for whatever purpose you want. Just know that if you want to treat it as the military does you might want to understand the importance of Mil-spec and types of rifles that surpass it. This is a board for all knowledge of AR's and as such I think we need to set some ground rules for what qualifies as what, after all we don't need to wonder into the other sites territory.
See? Another knee jerk reaction from a snippet reader with a short attention span and a poor grasp of logic.
Grow up. I read your posts in this thread, and I saw exactly what you're about before I posted. I saw that you said you want "top quality" for some things, but not your trunk and cache guns. I saw that you put some arbitrary noise about having "top quality" first, but going with budget builds later, as if the role for the rifles you're talking about are irrelevant. I saw that you lumped trunk guns and cache guns in with "whatever else they want" guns, as if you aren't staking your life on a trunk or cache rifle just the same as a primary HD rifle, regardless of it's use potential. And I saw your noise about elitism, as well as IG having a stake in selling rifles. Golly, that sure discredited him!
You're in a hole. Good luck getting out.
Inebriated, I hope you can sleep well at night knowing that - in the 1/2 in a million chance I need to go dig up a rifle, or that my G19 is insufficient for the occasion on the road and I need one of my trunk guns - they will manage to accurately and reliably fire all the rounds necessary. I promise.
Your decisions don't impact my sleep patterns or sleep quality in the least. But I wish you the best of luck if you ever do have to call on your trunk gun. I hope, for your sake, it works just as well as one of your "top quality" guns with which you regularly train and learn, and you can look back at that $400 you saved with fondness.
Note however WM claims that move due to "slumping demand" vs political pressure. I'd assume they decided the $ sales of such guns added to their bottom line not worth the hassle they get from selling them at this point.
Or when the president threatens to cut the millions of dollars in welfare money that WalMart receives each year (EBT, WIC, etc).
Grow up. I read your posts in this thread, and I saw exactly what you're about before I posted. I saw that you said you want "top quality" for some things, but not your trunk and cache guns. I saw that you put some arbitrary noise about having "top quality" first, but going with budget builds later, as if the role for the rifles you're talking about are irrelevant. I saw that you lumped trunk guns and cache guns in with "whatever else they want" guns, as if you aren't staking your life on a trunk or cache rifle just the same as a primary HD rifle, regardless of it's use potential. And I saw your noise about elitism, as well as IG having a stake in selling rifles. Golly, that sure discredited him!
You're in a hole. Good luck getting out.
Your decisions don't impact my sleep patterns or sleep quality in the least. But I wish you the best of luck if you ever do have to call on your trunk gun. I hope, for your sake, it works just as well as one of your "top quality" guns with which you regularly train and learn, and you can look back at that $400 you saved with fondness.
Because Lord Knows, if it doesn't have the Inebriated stamp of approval, my heretofore stone cold reliable trunk gun will shit the bed during the 120 rds it might be called upon. In the 1/2 in a million chance it's needed at all. Have an independent thought, you brainwashed little suck up. Well, at least you're toeing the party line. Maybe you'll get some congratulatory PMs from The Great Ones. ****head.
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TF you yapping about? Read the last page or so and decided to weigh in? Maybe suck up and get some brownie points?
Sent from my XT1585 using TapatalkWell, I'll take brownie points over what you're working toward, but no, I've had a consistent message for a while now in this thread and others similar where members like you who don't get it or refuse to accept it keep pushing the discussion the wrong way.
My specific point was you twisted WillBrink's meaning; if you have to change what someone says in order to respond to it, reconsider your response.
Because Lord Knows, if it doesn't have the Inebriated stamp of approval, my heretofore stone cold reliable trunk gun will shit the bed during the 120 rds it might be called upon. In the 1/2 in a million chance it's needed at all. Have an independent thought, you brainwashed little suck up. Well, at least you're toeing the party line. Maybe you'll get some congratulatory PMs from The Great Ones. ****head.
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I am not sure why you are so angry, who the "great ones" are or whom Inebriated is "sucking up" to. If we leave that mess behind, lets talk about where people are attacked most.
1. Their home.
2. Their car.
3. Street.
The "need" for a firearm is an interesting one. I see that you believe that there is a 500,000 chance that you will "need" a firearm to defend yourself, but yet you still have them (most likely more than one). So you must have some concerns.
To put things in context, the USCG says that there were 937 "collisions" in 2014. For all the boats out there, that number seems pretty low when you figure in that there are over 13 million REGISTERED boats in the US. But, yet, everyone carries a life vest or some kind of floatation device. Odd.
Point is, that I would never cut corners if I thought I needed to bet my life on something.
YMMV.
C4
The "need" for a firearm is an interesting one. I see that you believe that there is a 500,000 chance that you will "need" a firearm to defend yourself, but yet you still have them (most likely more than one). So you must have some concerns.
Logic is for losers, Grant.
Because Lord Knows, if it doesn't have the Inebriated stamp of approval, my heretofore stone cold reliable trunk gun will shit the bed during the 120 rds it might be called upon. In the 1/2 in a million chance it's needed at all. Have an independent thought, you brainwashed little suck up. Well, at least you're toeing the party line. Maybe you'll get some congratulatory PMs from The Great Ones. ****head.
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You so clearly do not get it. You could've at least tried to argue like a big boy instead of being a child about it.
Whatever, learn at your own pace. Have a good rest of your evening.
Exactly and I see it all the time. To include police depts.
That's just it. Most people DO BELIEVE that they are "informed" and do recommend low end AR's for LE and Civy use.
For me, about the lowest quality gun I would bet my life on would be a Glock or S&W.
Depends. They might have done a ton of research (on a forum that is frequented by "hobbyist" shooters).
C4
Logic is for losers, Grant.
Sycophant pussy.
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Let it all out.
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