The Right Optic and Roles for a 16" .308 semi-auto

[MeanStreaker]

I'm still looking for the right glass for my Larue PredatAR 7.62 and would appreciate any thoughts.

For the longest time it wore a TA11E ACOG as I wanted this (and still mostly think of it) as a practical, general purpose, jack-of-all-trades setup to try and do well enough on man size targets from 0-600 yards. I have always been very experienced with ACOGs on various AR15s, so this seemed like a natural fit.

I was soon blown away with just how accurate the lightweight 16" 7.62 barrel was, so I started playing with more precision scenarios. Well, trying for precision groups at 200 yards with an ACOG is probably not ideal, so I sold it to try something else.

And I'm still looking...

--Do I want to keep this thing straight up "general purpose" and pick up a 1-6 variable? Which one? (I'm looking really hard at the Vortex Razor HD Gen II and the SWFA SS HD.)

--Do I want to give up some 0-50 yard speed and get something like a 2.5-10 Nightforce or maybe even 3x-18x? I don't want to go too crazy here since the light and compact nature of the PredatAR was very attractive to me. (Factoring in, I have a squared away "general purpose" 5.56 BCM 16" wearing an ACOG, and a couple other 5.56 BCMs wearing micro Aimpoints.)

Hmmm... What do I want? What do I want? :confused:

My budget is probably $1500ish and below.

Thoughts? Who wants to give me some sage advice? Should I stop trying to "general purpose" everything?

[B Cart]

I went through this same train of thought with my 18" 7.62x51 AR-10. I started with a 1-6 optic, but soon realized I wanted more magnification to be able to be more precise at longer distances (mainly for hunting coyotes, ringing steel, and a potential SHTF rifle). I then went to a 2.5-10 and liked that, but it still left me wanting more magnification (maybe it's because I shoot a lot of long range with really accurate bolt guns and expensive scopes). So I finally ended up putting an SWFA 3-15 FFP scope on top with an offset micro red dot at 45 degrees, and that has been the perfect setup for me. The red dot is sighted in to 15 yards, and is very easy to make quick hits at close CQB distances (5-75 yards), and then the scope takes over very easily from 75 to 1,000 yards. I have run a lot of drills with this gun under time engaging close silhouette targets and then engaging steel targets out to 700-800 yards. It transitions quickly and I feel like the gun fits a pretty good "general purpose" role from 0-1,000 yards.

As for optics within your budget, you can get some pretty good scopes in the 3-15 or 3-18 range for +/- $1,200 and then throw a Burris fastfire 3 or similar reflex red dot offset at 45deg and I think you would find that would give you all the capabilities you want.

I hope that helps!

[Koshinn]

I'm still looking for the right glass for my Larue PredatAR 7.62 and would appreciate any thoughts.

For the longest time it wore a TA11E ACOG as I wanted this (and still mostly think of it) as a practical, general purpose, jack-of-all-trades setup to try and do well enough on man size targets from 0-600 yards. I have always been very experienced with ACOGs on various AR15s, so this seemed like a natural fit.

I was soon blown away with just how accurate the lightweight 16" 7.62 barrel was, so I started playing with more precision scenarios. Well, trying for precision groups at 200 yards with an ACOG is probably not ideal, so I sold it to try something else.

And I'm still looking...

--Do I want to keep this thing straight up "general purpose" and pick up a 1-6 variable? Which one? (I'm looking really hard at the Vortex Razor HD Gen II and the SWFA SS HD.)

--Do I want to give up some 0-50 yard speed and get something like a 2.5-10 Nightforce or maybe even 3x-18x? I don't want to go too crazy here since the light and compact nature of the PredatAR was very attractive to me. (Factoring in, I have a squared away "general purpose" 5.56 BCM 16" wearing an ACOG, and a couple other 5.56 BCMs wearing micro Aimpoints.)

Hmmm... What do I want? What do I want? :confused:

My budget is probably $1500ish and below.

Thoughts? Who wants to give me some sage advice? Should I stop trying to "general purpose" everything?

It really depends on what your use is.

For me, as a general purpose 16" 308, I have a Leupold CQBSS 1.1-8x on top and offset irons on the side. Another way is a 2.5-10 on top and offset red dot on the side. SOCOM supposedly runs a 3-18x and a T-1 on top of that.

On a budget, I'd run a Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x32 and Magpul MBUS Pro Offset Sights. Good mix of speed, cost, weight, and reliability. Using offset irons means QD rings aren't required for your main optic, which saves weight. If you're running a magnified optic and a offset red dot, most people would also run foldable irons in the standard spot, which is more weight. And if you're using irons because of massive humidity or mud everywhere or what have you, your offset irons will be useful while the offset red dot won't be as useful. Also, your entire setup works without batteries. And finally, irons at close range (with large aperture) aren't terribly slower than a red dot at close range.

[SomeOtherGuy]

It really depends on what your use is.

For me, as a general purpose 16" 308, I have a Leupold CQBSS 1.1-8x on top and offset irons on the side. Another way is a 2.5-10 on top and offset red dot on the side. SOCOM supposedly runs a 3-18x and a T-1 on top of that.

On a budget, I'd run a Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x32 and Magpul MBUS Pro Offset Sights. Good mix of speed, cost, weight, and reliability. Using offset irons means QD rings aren't required for your main optic, which saves weight. If you're running a magnified optic and a offset red dot, most people would also run foldable irons in the standard spot, which is more weight. And if you're using irons because of massive humidity or mud everywhere or what have you, your offset irons will be useful while the offset red dot won't be as useful. Also, your entire setup works without batteries. And finally, irons at close range (with large aperture) aren't terribly slower than a red dot at close range.

I agree with all of this.

Having run a number of rifle competitions that involve shots as close at 10-15 feet using magnified optics - as recently as this past weekend with a 4x Browe (similar to ACOG) - I think people greatly overestimate the need for a 1x. Sure, if all of your shots are at bad breath distance you want that, but if a few of them are close-up while most are at 25 yards plus, 2 or 3x is very little compromise, and 4x isn't bad. I had no issue making centered A-zone hits with the Browe at 10 feet, so close that the target was blurry. (Remember your holdover/under just like with any other sighting system so close in.)

Important caveat: the location of the scope objective matters a lot. A 4x ACOG/Browe with the objective only a few inches ahead of your face is a totally different experience at close range vs. a 4-20x scope where the objective might be 18" away from your eye. Conventional scopes form their image at the objective, and an objective that's way far out will mess up the feel at short distances. I have had no significant short-range issues using the Browe and using a Leupold 2-7x VX-R scope. I've had only slight issues using a SWFA SS 3-9x. I wouldn't recommend this with something really long with long eye relief.

I can't tell you your uses, but I would say that 2.5-10x would cover a lot of potential uses at both ends of the distance spectrum. There are of course good 1-6x options and an increasing number of 1-8x options, as well as the Burris 1.5-8x28 which could also be a good bridge.

I've owned the two 1-6x scopes you mentioned. The Razor is pretty good, but very heavy, and optimized for 3-gun or other short range use. The SWFA 1-6x has somewhat limited field of view at both ends and I personally don't like the reticle. The best 1-6x I've used is the Leupold Mark 6, which has no major drawbacks other than cost.

Also, consider the comment about offset irons and fixed optic mounts. If you're going to keep BUIS anyway, offset ones add minor cost and weight but let you save significant cost and weight on the optic mount, and will be faster in transition than using a QD mount to remove a dirty or shattered optic.

[MeanStreaker]

Any thoughts on the Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10 x 32 for what I'm looking for?

[Failure2Stop]

Another vote for: it all depends on what you're using it for.

If you're staying inside 600, there are a lot of 1-6 options that work well.
If you want to reach out to 800-1k, the CQBSS with H27D is the current market leader.
2.5-10x will do good precision, but not great for the close stuff.
3-18/4-16 are nice, but definitely precision oriented, and lose the close game.

Neither an offset or piggybacked optic will make the affair "good" up close, unless your standards of performance are very low.

If you have a "need" to reach out past 600 with guaranteed first round hits, you have to be lasing targets, which means that you are carrying around a LRF or mounting one. If you're mounting a LRF, you'll probably want it at 12:00 to read the display, so a piggybacked optic won't work for that application unless pushed toward the side.

[MeanStreaker]

Thanks F2S.

I know I committed a cardinal sin by not stating my exact needs in the opening post. But I did so because I'm still wavering between two slightly different roles for my PredatAR 7.62 and I would appreciate any feedback on that decision... as well as what optic helps fulfill the role. :D

Role 1- Minimum weight, truly general-purpose 0-500 yards, with great CQB distance abilities and the ability to hit a 20" target out to 500 yards.

OR

Role 2- "General purpose", but giving up some of the 0-25 yard emphasis in order to have "more precision". Specifically, in regards to "more precision" I desire the ability to more precisely/quickly hit say a 4" target inside 200 yards... I am not defining "more precision" as "now be able to hit a 20" target out to 1000 yards instead of only 500".


If I were to go Role #1 above, I'm guessing a 1-6 variable is what I want. (Reminder I had the ACOG TA11E and the chevron does not lend itself to precision at 200 yards.)

However, I'm strongly leaning towards Role #2, since I have multiple 5.56 ARs set up for Role #1. The Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10 x 32 is my leading contender now as I think it will still be "OK enough" at 0-50 yards.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Any thoughts on the Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10 x 32 for what I'm looking for?

It's a pretty good scope. I owned one for a bit, then sold it. The field of view at 2.5x was much smaller than their specifications claim, according to my own measurements with the example in my possession. Around 40' where the spec was, IIRC, 47.9'. Glass quality was very good, as was illumination. The FFP reticle, MRAD flavor, was a little thin for fast use at 2.5x. It has the same feel and mechanicals as the other PST scopes, which is tolerable at the price but definitely not going to confuse you with premium or military-grade optics. If $800 and under is your budget, it's one good option. However, I strongly prefer the SWFA SS 3-9x, which looks very simple on the spec sheet but is actually a really solid do-lots optic, for less money and with comparable glass and better mechanicals.

[sinister]

Again (as mentioned) define your role and expectation.

If you are doing most of your work from bad breath and blood-spatter close to 50-200 Meters use a 5.56.

If you occasionally have to do emergency assaulting then the 7.62, with reach to 300 (to 500 depending on your mission and skill set).

If you just want a 7.62 -- again, focus on where 90% of your work is going to be and pick an optic that covers the range.

An academic argument supports golf club selection. If you're supporting live, breathing dudes you should really nail down where you get the most flexibility and not have to work-around weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Discerning guys will develop a case of the jaws if they expect you to cover down on a task and you're always late, slow, or totally off-the-reservation on response.

General purpose means doing a lot of things. Sometimes none of them exceptionally well.

[ALCOAR]

Perfecting-the-Recce-concept-The-case-for-308-7-62 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?104468-Perfecting-the-Recce-concept-The-case-for-308-7-62)

Perhaps give that thread a read.....I'd go with Role 2 for sure. Have a sub 12-13lb light precision 16" .308 with a relative LW 2.5-10x on top. With that optic it's a true 100yd-800/1000yd rifle given a shooter is present.

[Koshinn]

Another vote for: it all depends on what you're using it for.

If you're staying inside 600, there are a lot of 1-6 options that work well.
If you want to reach out to 800-1k, the CQBSS with H27D is the current market leader.
2.5-10x will do good precision, but not great for the close stuff.
3-18/4-16 are nice, but definitely precision oriented, and lose the close game.

Neither an offset or piggybacked optic will make the affair "good" up close, unless your standards of performance are very low.

If you have a "need" to reach out past 600 with guaranteed first round hits, you have to be lasing targets, which means that you are carrying around a LRF or mounting one. If you're mounting a LRF, you'll probably want it at 12:00 to read the display, so a piggybacked optic won't work for that application unless pushed toward the side.

Slightly off topic, but I noticed you recommend the Vortex Razor HD Gen II 1-6 for a good 5.56 optic but don't like the CQBSS for 5.56. The CQBSS is atually 2 oz lighter than the Razor Gen II. Are there other reasons for that preference?

[hypno02]

Slightly off topic, but I noticed you recommend the Vortex Razor HD Gen II 1-6 for a good 5.56 optic but don't like the CQBSS for 5.56. The CQBSS is atually 2 oz lighter than the Razor Gen II. Are there other reasons for that preference?

Curious as well. The Razor GenII is an awesome optic but If I had the cash available I'd definitely opt towards the mk6.

Reasons:
Exposed BUT locking turrets
Better reticle
Lighter

That being said I went from a Mk8 1-8 on my Scar17 to a 2.5-10x32 NF. Didn't like the lack of parallax adj on the NF and they eyebox didn't impress me compared to my Mk4 3.5-10 mk4. I'm running with a 3-18mk6 on the SCAR right now. If I wanted one optic on the rifle for a SHTF situation it'd have to be the mk8. But, I'll get more enjoyment and practical usage out of the 3-18 mk8 for the time being.

[HKGuns]

3-18 MK6......

[GFX_9]

I run an aimpoint micro h2. Weight is a concern, and as sweet as a razor 1-6 can be, it just wasnt viable for what i use the rifle for, which is basically used the same as my ar15's.

[mic2377]

I run a Bushnell 1-6.5 SMRS on my 308 AR. For 0-500 yds I wouldn't trade it for a higher magnification. I consider 1x very important for <50 yd moving targets, ie those encountered during hunting.

For longer stuff I have a 6.5 CM upper that has a higher mag optic. It really is trade-off, pick your usage.

[brianc142]

I run a Bushnell 1-6.5 SMRS on my 308 AR. For 0-500 yds I wouldn't trade it for a higher magnification. I consider 1x very important for <50 yd moving targets, ie those encountered during hunting.

For longer stuff I have a 6.5 CM upper that has a higher mag optic. It really is trade-off, pick your usage.
I run the same on my 16" 308 AR. It's hard to beat the Bushnell Elite Tactical line bang for buck. If I were going to buy another 1-6, I would go with the Razor HD or MK6 Leupy, leaning toward the Vortex for price. I know plenty of guys that run the Razor that can run anything they want.

[SniperOverwatch]

Thanks F2S.

I know I committed a cardinal sin by not stating my exact needs in the opening post. But I did so because I'm still wavering between two slightly different roles for my PredatAR 7.62 and I would appreciate any feedback on that decision... as well as what optic helps fulfill the role. :D

Role 1- Minimum weight, truly general-purpose 0-500 yards, with great CQB distance abilities and the ability to hit a 20" target out to 500 yards.

OR

Role 2- "General purpose", but giving up some of the 0-25 yard emphasis in order to have "more precision". Specifically, in regards to "more precision" I desire the ability to more precisely/quickly hit say a 4" target inside 200 yards... I am not defining "more precision" as "now be able to hit a 20" target out to 1000 yards instead of only 500".


If I were to go Role #1 above, I'm guessing a 1-6 variable is what I want. (Reminder I had the ACOG TA11E and the chevron does not lend itself to precision at 200 yards.)

However, I'm strongly leaning towards Role #2, since I have multiple 5.56 ARs set up for Role #1. The Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10 x 32 is my leading contender now as I think it will still be "OK enough" at 0-50 yards.

IMO, unless you're on the local SWAT team stacking up and busting down doors for a living, you don't really need a "CQB" gun other than your HD one. So look at your mission...what will you actually be doing with the gun. Not imagining doing, but actually doing.

I suspect you're right, and Mission 2 is more realistic.

[Tim]

I'm still looking for the right glass for my Larue PredatAR 7.62 and would appreciate any thoughts.

...I wanted this (and still mostly think of it) as a practical, general purpose, jack-of-all-trades setup to try and do well enough on man size targets from 0-600 yards...

I was soon blown away with just how accurate the lightweight 16" 7.62 barrel was, so I started playing with more precision scenarios.

--Do I want to keep this thing straight up "general purpose" and pick up a 1-6 variable? Which one? (I'm looking really hard at the Vortex Razor HD Gen II and the SWFA SS HD.)

Thoughts? Who wants to give me some sage advice? Should I stop trying to "general purpose" everything?

I cut some things from your post to try to focus what you are saying as it seems you want a general purpose rifle - man sized targets out to 600 yards - and got sidetracked by it being accurate and wanting to stretch it's legs at smaller targets.

I went through the same process and have a 16" AR-10 with a SWFA 1-6. It is my go-to 7.62 rifle as it can do many things well. Six power is enough for me at any practical distance to hit a man sized target and I like the reticle on the SWFA at 1X for close in shots.

To give perspective, I also have an iron sight only M1A and another AR-10 with a 20" barrel topped with a 3.5-15 Nighforce F1 that fill different roles.

I say top the rifle with the low power variable you like and then start putting bullets that are 2 to 3 times heavier than most 5.56's on target.