View Full Version : .22LR bolt guns?
Are there any decent .22LR bolt guns? Preferably something that fits in a Rem700 or Ruger 10/22 stock/chassis, but if those don't exist then I'm open for anything really.
I won't be using .22LR match ammo (I can't find any). Just looking for a training gun at 50-100 yds that's cheaper to shoot than center fire bolt guns.
Edit: I found the Remington 40x in .22lr. Apparently the CMP had them for a while but they're long long gone. New production ones are extremely expensive.
BuzzinSATX
08-17-16, 19:21
Have you considered the Ruger 77-22? I had a friend who had on e that shot under 2 MOA with decent ammo (CCI Mini Mags I think). May shoot better. Biggest thing that I remember shooting it many years ago was that it felt much like a standard size bolt action rifle, at least much more so than my Marlin 22...
http://www.ruger.com/products/77Series7722/models.html
As a bonus, it uses 10-22 mags.
This one is interesting...
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/91084
Here is some discussion on the rifles accuracy:
http://cheapermalice.com/2011/08/ruger-7722-accuracy-improvement/
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92598
Seems like the biggest issue to accuracy is the barrel fit into the receiver. Again, it was several years ago since I last shot one, and now that I really don't hunt, I'm more interested in the 10-22 breakdown...
But after this research, I'll probably pick one up if I come across a decent used one.
For myself I think I've settled on the CZ 455 Varmint Tacticool. I was considering the Savage FV-SR.
tigershilone
08-17-16, 22:57
Popular choices in current production 22 bolt guns that are affordable ($400 +/-100): ruger american, savage, browning t-bolt, and my choice the CZ455.
Moving up the $$$ tree ($1000-1800) gets you into sako, suhl, maybe a remington 40x and anschutz.
Wanna spend big $ ($2000-4000) gets you into the 2500x actions, gorham customs, stiller, turbo, and other benchrest customs that will damn near punch a single hole at 50yds all day long.
Going back to the affordables, the savage has a pretty good trigger but suffers from well known extractor problems and shitty stamped mags that the lips eventually open and dump ammo all over the place. Ruger 77-22's I've seen at the matches just cant seem to be accurate, when they show they always place at the bottom of the score list. Have no experience with the t-bolt, never seen one at a match. CZ's are pretty popular, mags that work and pretty reliable and accurate. They have an occasional failure that the bolt pulls out on the extraction stroke if trigger is set to light or improperly.
There are a lot of used bolt guns out of production that are very nice, even if parts support is an issue. Kimber (yea, kimber) made a very good bolt gun for the military as a trainer model82G and they were an absolute steal of a deal when the CMP had them for around $200 and H&R made a beauty as well. Unfortunately both are usually selling for $600+ now used when you can find them.
Rimfire central has the skinny on all the 22 stuff
My current setup for 22 steel matches: CZ455 tacticool, upgrades include threaded bolt knob, cheek rest, pillared and partially bedded, factory trigger adjusted to 2.1lbs
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o95/tigershilone/IMG_0941.jpg (http://s118.photobucket.com/user/tigershilone/media/IMG_0941.jpg.html)
For myself I think I've settled on the CZ 455 Varmint Tacticool. I was considering the Savage FV-SR.
That CZ is very nice and accurate as the rifles that cost double or triple.
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SeriousStudent
08-18-16, 01:26
I will also second the CZ 455 Tacticool. Tigershilone made me a sweet custom bolt knob for it, too. It definitely improved how well I can run the bolt at speed.
My cz455 is a blast to shoot, very accurate. Can aquire 25 round magazines for it too.
How about a Win mod52 in sporter stock for $500?
PWS T3 summit rifle. Tons of 10/22 parts and silly accurate.
Does anyone have experience with the new Ruger American rimfire? I like that it takes 10/22 mags and they offer a threaded barrel option from the factory.
Are there any decent .22LR bolt guns?
Just go straight to Rimfire Central and look around...
I won't be using .22LR match ammo (I can't find any).
Look harder. It's out there, but you'll need to order it via the errornet, and it'll cost you a bit...
So a while back I was researching this and ended up with the Tacticool as probably what I wanted but then I started to read about the custom work people get done and I honestly don;t even know what it means.
Like these terms...
upgrades include threaded bolt knob, cheek rest, pillared and partially bedded, factory trigger adjusted to 2.1lbs
So if I wanted to order a Tacticool and have some basic refinements done for a 'get it right from the start' rifle. What would be good to get done? How much does it cost? and who would you get to do it?
Look harder. It's out there, but you'll need to order it via the errornet, and it'll cost you a bit...
It seems like match grade .22LR is around the same price as I pay to load my own match grade .223?
So if I wanted to order a Tacticool and have some basic refinements done for a 'get it right from the start' rifle. What would be good to get done? How much does it cost? and who would you get to do it?
That's like asking how you should remodel your new house...
If you don't like the bolt knob, then you'll want to have it cut off, have the stub threaded so that you can change it.
If your face doesn't fit the stock, then you'll want a cheek rest.
If the accuracy isn't good enough, then you'll want to bed it.
In short, buy it and shoot it first, and then make changes as needed/desired.
It seems like match grade .22LR is around the same price as I pay to load my own match grade .223?
If you mean 15-20¢/round, then yes.
That said, my .22 bolt gun shoots CCI Subsonics (≈11¢/round) as well as anything. I took two gophers with it yesterday!
I'm happy with a CMP Rem 40x and a Lupy LR 6.5 - 20 updated by the factory with a fine tapered reticle and T1 turrets. I added an aluminum accesory channel to the forestock and reshaped/stipled (more verticle) the wrist. The trigger is accptable as is but the single feed is abit slow. Looked at at opening up the bottom of the receiver and fitting savage magwell parts for a detachable mag but the thought of fubaring it has kept it as is. The rifle consistantly shoots under .4 @ 50 and consistantly .85 - 1.25 at 100 depending on fodder.
tigershilone
08-20-16, 23:37
So a while back I was researching this and ended up with the Tacticool as probably what I wanted but then I started to read about the custom work people get done and I honestly don;t even know what it means.
Pillaring is putting in metal sleeves into the wood stock to keep the action screws from crushing the wood and thus torquing the action causing inconsistency and making the rifle holding technique sensitive
Bedding is using epoxy to form a tolerance fit of the action (sometimes action and barrel) to the wood stock inletting, again at an attempt to prevent action torque and aid consistency.
This thread at the hide gives pretty good picture descriptions especially posts 10 and 21 http://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=188123
Rimfire central has several posts on bedding, member djdilliodon does this frequently for under $100 http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=724881
Bolt threading usually costs between $65-$85 for a 5/16-24 threaded stub (pretty much the industry standard for all bolt guns regardless of caliber)
(mods if other board references not allowed pls delete)
tigershilone
08-20-16, 23:41
PWS T3 summit rifle. Tons of 10/22 parts and silly accurate.
I would love to try out one of these, however PWS only makes them in limited quantities of 100 and often pre-sells them all. I only want the action, not a complete rifle and I cant find one.
SeriousStudent
08-20-16, 23:48
Pillaring is putting in metal sleeves into the wood stock to keep the action screws from crushing the wood and thus torquing the action causing inconsistency and making the rifle holding technique sensitive
Bedding is using epoxy to form a tolerance fit of the action (sometimes action and barrel) to the wood stock inletting, again at an attempt to prevent action torque and aid consistency.
This thread at the hide gives pretty good picture descriptions especially posts 10 and 21 http://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=188123
Rimfire central has several posts on bedding, member djdilliodon does this frequently for under $100 http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=724881
Bolt threading usually costs between $65-$85 for a 5/16-24 threaded stub (pretty much the industry standard for all bolt guns regardless of caliber)
(mods if other board references not allowed pls delete)
Yer fine.
I have been doing a lot of reading on Rimefire Central as well. I am probably going to get mine pillar bedded this winter, after the fall shooting season is over.
If we're recommending specific guns, then look at a Ruger American Rimfire (RAR).
They're great starter guns, and maybe they're everything you'll ever want...
Full disclosure: My .22 is an old Marlin (modified), and I just bought a new RAR "Predator" in .17HMR.
I bought the Savage that comes with
A5 ish stock which is awesome
Tactical bolt Knob
Threaded barrel for your can ( think positive )
Fluted barrel for cool effect ( how hot can it get )
Their acu trigger which is pretty nice for a .22
And I think it came with a base for the scope.
Crazy cheap , like $259. I was stunned at what this rifle came with for the dollar.
PB
Crazy cheap , like $259. I was stunned at what this rifle came with for the dollar.
Amen... the "sticker shock" with rimfires is how inexpensive they are. My new RAR was $275.-, shipped.
Thanks Bimmer and Tigershilone.
So about the stock. Is there anyone that offers a stock similar to Tacticool but with the built in LOP and cheek riser adjustments. I haven't seen one, but I see them for the higher caliber models.
Affordable.. not one of those high dollar setups.
tigershilone
08-21-16, 15:52
STock for what brand and model of rifle?
That 455.
I've been trying to find this 10/22 some guy builds and I know it's not a bolt bun pre se, but I understand you can lock the bolt if desired. I -think- it runs $550 from the guy ready to roll. I was wondering what you guys thought of it but I can't find the link.
It's not a KIDD build, it's just some individual that I believe makes barrels and then builds a modestly tricked out 10/22.
ETA: here it is... I still haven't found the vid of the guy actually shooting it on YT. http://www.1022rifle.com/rifle-ruger
ETA: here it is. He actually gets to shooting around the 10:00 mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4u9L6nCiU4
Again, I know this isn't a bolt but it's setup for suppressed and correct me if I'm wrong but can't the Ruger 10/22 be made to fire single shot ( if you want to be as quiet as possible ).
I guess maybe you would not be allowed to compete with it against bolt guns? I don't know.
Would any of these bolt guns mentioned be any more accurate than that? You know the $450-$750 price range?
This was my other choice I had found. I forgot what I read that I gravitated away from it. It's possible I got to reading something that was way more expensive or, I got disillusioned at the accuracy of a sub- $750 gun.
To me that looks pretty damn accurate. Are the CZs more accurate than that?
I know this is veering a bit OT, but I'm really torn between the semi and bolt and probably don't understand all the reasons someone would want a bolt specifically... unless to train for high power bolt action... which I'm not really interested in.
I'm looking for accurate fun gun.
The 10/22 can be made as accurate as the bolt guns. People compete with them side by side the bolt guns in the challenges.
For $750 I would get the CZ and find some optics, bipod, and ammo.
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tigershilone
08-21-16, 18:56
That 455.
ETA: here it is... I still haven't found the vid of the guy actually shooting it on YT. http://www.1022rifle.com/rifle-ruger
ETA: here it is. He actually gets to shooting around the 10:00 mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4u9L6nCiU4
Again, I know this isn't a bolt but it's setup for suppressed and correct me if I'm wrong but can't the Ruger 10/22 be made to fire single shot ( if you want to be as quiet as possible ).
I guess maybe you would not be allowed to compete with it against bolt guns? I don't know.
This was my other choice I had found. I forgot what I read that I gravitated away from it. It's possible I got to reading something that was way more expensive or, I got disillusioned at the accuracy of a sub- $750 gun.
I'm looking for accurate fun gun.
For cz455 stocks there is boyds, stocky's has some and manners and KRG. The latter 2 definitely push out of your $750 budget as they are $450-600 by themselves. The tacticool cz455 comes with a boyds "Tacticool" stock from the factory.
That link you posted doesnt look to have a threaded barrel on that rifle, so no suppressor :( or add the cost of threading a barrel. Cheaper to buy threaded to begin with. His barrels are fedderson and they have a good rep over at rimfire central as a upper mid tier barrel (my opinion from what I have read and researched, no hard experience). The stock is a hogue. ppl either love em or hate em. Finally the trigger looks to be stock, the one place you make the most gains with a 10/22 is the trigger pack, then barrel then stock. His pricing is fairly reasonable for an aftermarket barrel and stock, I'd research more before ordering. I really really like the magpul x22 stock as it has a lot of adjustments built in.
You can hold the 10/22 bolt closed with your thumb pretty easily with subsonic and sv ammo. Haven't tried it with hi vel or mini mags, but I don't shoot those anyway as accuracy suffers terribly when they go transonic at 80-100 yards. There are sellers on ebay with a bolt blocker peice of sheetmetal and this guy with a true dedicated bolt lock setup http://www.colossic.com/defenseproductboltlock.html that looks very interesting, but pricey at $85.
Fun plinker, go with the 10/22, for the OP's search for 22 bolt action I still stand by the CZ455 for a moderate budget. There are dedicated benchrest accuracy 10/22 based rifles out there, but the budget starts at $1000 for those.
tigershilone
08-21-16, 19:04
I bought the Savage that comes with
A5 ish stock which is awesome
Tactical bolt Knob
Threaded barrel for your can ( think positive )
Fluted barrel for cool effect ( how hot can it get )
Their acu trigger which is pretty nice for a .22
And I think it came with a base for the scope.
Crazy cheap , like $259. I was stunned at what this rifle came with for the dollar.
PB
Really the best bang for the buck, threaded bull barrel, knob and a pretty good trigger. Weak points again are the stamped mags that dump ammo randomly and extractor issues. I've watched a few timed matches that were terribly frustrating for ppl shooting savages when the extractor doesnt do it's job or the mag puts four rounds in the chamber area instead of one. If you get those issues sorted out the savages do very well accuracy wise.
It seems like match grade .22LR is around the same price as I pay to load my own match grade .223?
Eley, Wolf, SK, and CCI is where it's at. Lapua if you're made of money. Sometimes remington subsonic shoots ok in some guns too. In .22lr guns are usually partial to a specific loading, you just have to find it. Also generally speaking the higher the velocity the crappier the accuracy.
Are there any decent .22LR bolt guns? Preferably something that fits in a Rem700 or Ruger 10/22 stock/chassis, but if those don't exist then I'm open for anything really.
I won't be using .22LR match ammo (I can't find any). Just looking for a training gun at 50-100 yds that's cheaper to shoot than center fire bolt guns.
Edit: I found the Remington 40x in .22lr. Apparently the CMP had them for a while but they're long long gone. New production ones are extremely expensive.
I am a fan of the Savage. Cheap, accurate, threaded barrel, Picatinny scope rail.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Cerakoted/Savage_22LR.jpg
C4
I am a fan of the Savage. Cheap, accurate, threaded barrel, Picatinny scope rail.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Cerakoted/Savage_22LR.jpg
C4
That's the Savage Mk II FV-SR right? I'm looking into getting one of those now actually, thanks to this thread.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-25-16, 17:10
Lots of ways to go, but for my son I went with a CZ455 VPT, Harris bi-pod, SS 10X scope, rear bag and a 'Yo Dave' trigger. The stock trigger isn't bad, but the Yo Dave transforms the rifle I think. Nice, clean break at an OK weight.
He really enjoys it and it shoots Wolf ME pretty well. With that Manners stock, the ability to add a Lilja barrel later and lots of parts available, I think it is the way to go.
For daddy, I went with a 40X converted to a repeater. Just had it out for real the first time yesterday.
http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a426/MileHighPhotos/FullSizeRender-2_zpsvvy2agbh.jpg
Likes Lapua.
http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a426/MileHighPhotos/FullSizeRender-1_zps5rv9he7c.jpg
http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a426/MileHighPhotos/FullSizeRender-3_zpsuehvirjd.jpg
firefighter37
08-25-16, 19:09
My FV-SR is fun, but I don't find it any more accurate than my 10/22. I got my Savage for $215, and the trigger alone in my 10/22 cost more than that, so I guess its not an apples to apples comparison.
What I like about the bolt gun is I take my time, the 10/22 I just waste ammo.
I like Savage — I have a 10FCP-SR — but their .22 magazines and stocks are famously crappy...
I'll show mine, too:
41132\
An old Marlin 25, bought from a cousin for $50, then barrel free-floated, trigger lightened, decent scope mounted. It easily shoots dime-size groups at 25yds, and quarter-sized groups at 50.
41131
New Ruger RAR "Predator, .17HMR.
If I had it to do over again, I'd go buy another Ruger.
I won't by another Savage. I read about the ejector problems but didn't believe them. First precision class I took gun won't eject. This happened within the first 200 rounds. I also had an upgraded ejector kit installed.
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I won't buy another Savage. I read about the ejector problems but didn't believe them....
That's just centerfire guns, right?
I don't want to run too far off the tracks here, but I immediately bought spare bolt parts for my 10FCP-SR, anticipating breakage down the road.
That's just centerfire guns, right?
I don't want to run too far off the tracks here, but I immediately bought spare bolt parts for my 10FCP-SR, anticipating breakage down the road.
I have no idea if it's just center fire or not.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So why is the bolt knob so important. Honestly that's the last thing I would think anyone would care about but it seems like everyone wants an upgraded knob.
What I like about the bolt gun is I take my time, the 10/22 I just waste ammo.
That was the other issue I ran into between the 10/22 and CZ455 decision i had reached. I'm not one simply sling lead just for the heck of it but it seemed like the 10/22 was really customization. I think I 'm kinda leaning back to that Tacticool CZ now. To bad you can't get the CZ455 threaded and a Magpul x22 stock.
Lots of ways to go, but for my son I went with a CZ455 VPT, Harris bi-pod, SS 10X scope, rear bag and a 'Yo Dave' trigger. The stock trigger isn't bad, but the Yo Dave transforms the rifle I think. Nice, clean break at an OK weight.
He really enjoys it and it shoots Wolf ME pretty well. With that Manners stock, the ability to add a Lilja barrel later and lots of parts available, I think it is the way to go.
For daddy, I went with a 40X converted to a repeater. Just had it out for real the first time yesterday.
http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a426/MileHighPhotos/FullSizeRender-2_zpsvvy2agbh.jpg
Likes Lapua.
http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a426/MileHighPhotos/FullSizeRender-1_zps5rv9he7c.jpg
http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a426/MileHighPhotos/FullSizeRender-3_zpsuehvirjd.jpg
So what does that stock cost? I can't seem to find it on their web site. That rifle must be up in the $2K range isn't it?
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-26-16, 17:17
Which rifle? The CZ Varmint Precision Trainer(VPT) is in a Manners T4(IIRC) stock and the rifle is at Buds for $850.
The rifle pictured is my Remington 40X in a standard AICS stock, non foldable version. I redid the whole rifle. New Benchmark barrel, new PTG bolt and a conversion to repeater. $2k would be about right for a stock 40X converted to a repeater. I've had my 40X for 5+ years, but I think OK examples are about $1200(?) and the conversion is $500-600. Add in some shipping. AICS stocks are coming down in price maybe pick one up for $800. Mine has been spread out over five years, so the hurt wasn't as sharp.
Which rifle? The CZ Varmint Precision Trainer(VPT) is in a Manners T4(IIRC) stock and the rifle is at Buds for $850.
The rifle pictured is my Remington 40X in a standard AICS stock, non foldable version. I redid the whole rifle. New Benchmark barrel, new PTG bolt and a conversion to repeater. $2k would be about right for a stock 40X converted to a repeater. I've had my 40X for 5+ years, but I think OK examples are about $1200(?) and the conversion is $500-600. Add in some shipping. AICS stocks are coming down in price maybe pick one up for $800. Mine has been spread out over five years, so the hurt wasn't as sharp.
Oh, ok, I got mixed up. I thought you meant that tan rifle was a CZ.
Popular choices in current production 22 bolt guns that are affordable ($400 +/-100): ruger american, savage, browning t-bolt, and my choice the CZ455.
Moving up the $$$ tree ($1000-1800) gets you into sako, suhl, maybe a remington 40x and anschutz.
Wanna spend big $ ($2000-4000) gets you into the 2500x actions, gorham customs, stiller, turbo, and other benchrest customs that will damn near punch a single hole at 50yds all day long.
Going back to the affordables, the savage has a pretty good trigger but suffers from well known extractor problems and shitty stamped mags that the lips eventually open and dump ammo all over the place. Ruger 77-22's I've seen at the matches just cant seem to be accurate, when they show they always place at the bottom of the score list. Have no experience with the t-bolt, never seen one at a match. CZ's are pretty popular, mags that work and pretty reliable and accurate. They have an occasional failure that the bolt pulls out on the extraction stroke if trigger is set to light or improperly.
There are a lot of used bolt guns out of production that are very nice, even if parts support is an issue. Kimber (yea, kimber) made a very good bolt gun for the military as a trainer model82G and they were an absolute steal of a deal when the CMP had them for around $200 and H&R made a beauty as well. Unfortunately both are usually selling for $600+ now used when you can find them.
Rimfire central has the skinny on all the 22 stuff
My current setup for 22 steel matches: CZ455 tacticool, upgrades include threaded bolt knob, cheek rest, pillared and partially bedded, factory trigger adjusted to 2.1lbs
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o95/tigershilone/IMG_0941.jpg (http://s118.photobucket.com/user/tigershilone/media/IMG_0941.jpg.html)
Great summary of the price points and best options in each.
Given the OP's use for the rifle, sounds like you're in the first price point and in that group, I'd go with the CZ or maybe the RAR. CZ would get the nod from me, I've owned several (452/455) in both .22 and .17 HMR, and they are reliable enough and extremely accurate for a low-cost trainer. Also my Dad has the Browning T-bolt and while an interesting design, the bolt action is not going to give you a good training platform for your centerfire rifles. Plus I found Dad's sample of one was not as accurate as the CZ's. I've heard some similar opinion about the T-bolt accuracy on rimfirecentral. Also my Dad has one of the recent heavy barreled Savage .22's (don't recall which model), and while it's every bit as accurate as the CZ's, the bladed accutrigger, the sometimes sloppy tolerances/fit of the parts, machining, etc., is just not as good. Again, an example of one, but I hear this repeated by others about the Savages. Doesn't seem to affect rifle accuracy or functioning enough to matter, but some find it an annoyance. All things considered, I'd take the CZ for a trainer in this price range.
@FMCDH
the next time you go out with both the CZ455 and 40X, could you shoot a few groups with each for comparison. Or actually just some groups from the CZ455... I can see the 40X above.
I would just like to see a same day, same shooter, same conditions, comparison of good groups and bad groups from each rifle. It would be nice to see a visual of the two price points. The $850 CZ vs $2K 40X
tigershilone
08-28-16, 14:49
So why is the bolt knob so important. Honestly that's the last thing I would think anyone would care about but it seems like everyone wants an upgraded knob.
Mine gives me an extra 1.125" inch longer extension over where the factory round knob would stop at. This gives me more room to get my fingers/thumb on the handle without interfering with the scope bell and lets me run the bolt faster without slipping off like I occasionally did with the round knob. Doesn't seem like a big deal until you try it.
The CZ bolt throw put the handle way high, causes interference issues with some scope and ring combos.
So why is the bolt knob so important...
Doesn't seem like a big deal until you try it...
On a bolt action, the bolt handle is important...
Unlike an AR, where you probably rarely/never use the charging handle, on a bolt gun you're grabbing/manipulating the bolt handle as often as you use the trigger.
My RAR came with a thicker-than-standard bolt handle, but it's smooth and slippery. I'm thinking of upgrading to aftermarket, though throwing $50+ at a <$300 gun doesn't seem economical.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-29-16, 10:44
@FMCDH
the next time you go out with both the CZ455 and 40X, could you shoot a few groups with each for comparison. Or actually just some groups from the CZ455... I can see the 40X above.
I would just like to see a same day, same shooter, same conditions, comparison of good groups and bad groups from each rifle. It would be nice to see a visual of the two price points. The $850 CZ vs $2K 40X
And add in the ammo variable. 22lr 'Match' (Subsonic 40gr) runs from $8 to $20 per 50. So far I am definately seeing a correlation.
Of course I was, and it is common to, look at 50y groups when the goal of these rifles is to shoot out to 200y. On the Hide, someone figured out that at 200y, with the drop rate of ammo, that you need down very low (like fps) to keep elevation under control. It seems this is where the more expensive ammo really stands out when measured.
On the Hide, someone figured out that at 200y, with the drop rate of ammo, that you need down very low (like fps) to keep elevation under control...
Huh?
Anyway, AFAIK, "match" .22lr is subsonic because supersonic rounds will inevitably go transonic within 50-100yds. Starting subsonic means never going transonic, even if trajectories aren't as flat...
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-29-16, 19:46
Huh?
Anyway, AFAIK, "match" .22lr is subsonic because supersonic rounds will inevitably go transonic within 50-100yds. Starting subsonic means never going transonic, even if trajectories aren't as flat...
Sorry, deviation in fps, not absolute fps. That would be silly. ;) A big deviation in fps causing vertical stringing on longer shots.
I've been looking into getting a .22 bolt action rifle myself. I handled a Sako Finnfire II at a LGS, and it felt great. Should they be good to go? I don't see much about them online. I know they're not the cheapest option, but around $800 it didn't seem to be too crazy.
I did think about the CZ mention earlier here, but I'm wondering if after all the upgrades people are mentioning the guns just won't come out to the same price?
Are there any known issues with Sako's that I should be aware of? I'd like to just get something trouble and hassle free from the start. CZ is not out of the question, but the Finnfire did feel great in person for whatever it's worth.
Speaking of options, what is that muzzle device I see on most all the >2K$ rifles. It looks like it has calibrations on it.
when the goal of these rifles is to shoot out to 200y.
I did not know that. I thought .22lr was sort of a max out at 100Y deal.
And add in the ammo variable.
Right, I guess that's where I was going with the good groups / bad groups. I was wondering for instance if the overall relation was somewhat linear or if say the lower priced rifles fell apart more drastically with bad ammo.
IOW, if the very best group on the expensive rifle was 100% and the worst group was 80%.... would the lesser rifle exhibit that same 20% difference even if it's comparative performance was 90% for best group. Or might it's worse group fall off more significantly. I guess that's ammo sensitivity. Just wondering if there is some relation to cost or if every rifle is basically a crap shoot as to what it likes.
FWIW, I shoot my 28" CZ 452 Ultra Lux out to 200 yards fairly frequently. It does quite well at cans and small swingers out that far, but I don't think I've ever gotten inside a 3 inch group at 200. It still has the stock sights, though. If you like the CZ irons look at the JP peep blade inserts for the rear. You can also buy very nice competition sights for them.
I found it very lightly used for $300, and it's wonderful.
Just found this vid.... man, I like that setup...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGeoVHTWZwQ
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-29-16, 22:55
I did think about the CZ mention earlier here, but I'm wondering if after all the upgrades people are mentioning the guns just won't come out to the same price?
To me, the CZ has to have a new trigger. Beyond that if it is in a free floated stock, it is most of the way there. Bedding the action and a Lilja barrel are the next big steps, but they are getting into the area of diminishing, though real, returns.
Speaking of options, what is that muzzle device I see on most all the >2K$ rifles. It looks like it has calibrations on it.
I think you are referring to the barrel tuners. I haven't played with one, and I seem to only see them on benchrest style rifles. Affects the harmonics of the barrel to tune it for the best groups.
When you speak about the speed of ammo. I basically see three types.
Fast - meaning you know it will go supersonic and then transonic over a long distance. Some was up over 1400 fps.
Slow - all that named Sub-sonic, very low fps.
Med or Match. .. All the "Match" stuff seems to be around 1050 fps. I don't know if that could go through the sonic barrier or not. Probably not where I live. So if I want to buy some variety of ammo, would you say all the 1050 and below stuff is safe. No way it could go supersonic? I just couldn't figure why the only labeled sub-sonic is very slow when it appears to me the Match stuff is also sub-sonic as well.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-01-16, 18:33
Not an expert, but what I have gleaned.
'Match' always means more expensive ;)
Match rounds seem to be plain lead with a wax coating. I don't know if the standard subsonics are copper washed like the standard and high velocity stuff- at least the stuff my plinking 22s like.
The match rounds seem to go for $7/50 all the way up to $20/50. It does seem like the price correlates pretty well with performance, but there seem to be ammo/rifle combinations that work better than others for a given price point. I agree that 1050ish seems standard with 1070 being the higher end for Lapua ammo.
Read up on the Eley ammo loading process. They are complete nuts. IIRC, Hundreds of variables they looked at and controlled for. They have four machines for their top of the line ammo, and then you can pick the lot you want- or go down to Killough Shooting sports and try lots out with your rifle to see what shoots best.
I've got the disease, but I don't have the sickness to that level.
Thought this was interesting, plus it has pictures!
http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/
tigershilone
09-01-16, 23:17
Took forever to find this again, very very informative site on shooting 22lr http://www.thewindisnotyourfriend.com/read/long-rifle-wind.html
completely copied from that website, no work is mine. It is one of the better theories I've found for why subsonic is more accurate than High velocity other than the transonic turbulence explanation.
The following article is from “The Quest for Rimfire Accuracy”
Those unfamiliar with smallbore rifle competition are often surprised to learn that target shooters almost universally use standard velocity ammunition in preference to the many varieties of high and hyper-velocity rounds available. The reason given is the low-velocity ammunitions resistance to wind deflection.
Despite what might seem at first to be the case, wind deflection is not proportional to the time of flight. Instead, it is proportional to the amount of delay in the flight caused by air resistance. The 1145 f.p.s. standard velocity .22 long rifle round takes .287 seconds to go 100 yds., but would take only .262 seconds to cover the same distance in a vacuum. The latter figure is easily found by dividing 300 ft. by the speed of the bullet (1145 f.p.s.), which would remain the same throughout its flight if it were in a vacuum. Thus the delay caused by air resistance is .025 second with the standard velocity ammunition.
The 1335 f.p.s. high velocity ammunition, which will take .259 second to cover 100 yds., would take only .225 second in a vacuum. Thus, the delay for this bullet is .035 second or 37% greater than that of the standard velocity round .22. The high speed round, then, suffers about 37% more wind deflection than the standard velocity.
This remarkable result is due to the very rapid rate at which air resistance increases with increase in bullet speed in the region near the speed of sound. The .22 rimfires are the only important rifle cartridges that occupy this speed range, and they are the only ones that show more wind deflection as velocity is increased.
While air resistance always increases when the bullet is shot faster, the rate of this increase is less steep at supersonic velocities. Rifle bullets in general, contrary to the case of rimfires, are made less sensitive to the wind by raising their velocities. NRA Firearms Fact Book
I copied this article a while back and if anyone knows who the Author is please contact me so I can give credit. Thanks,
Fascinating!
I wonder how this works out for the guys shooting .300Blackout subsonic/transsonic...
Ended up with this:
http://i.imgur.com/ck80JeR.jpg
I got this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FMWMSG/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_awd_x_pmo5xbEB73XW8
Cut one and stuck it on the end of my bolt. I can dry fire without any problems now.
Now I have 99 extra o-rings. If anyone needs one, I'll mail one for $1 (cost of a stamp, an envelope, and my time to go to the post office), additional o-rings for $0.10 each.
I did not know that. I thought .22lr was sort of a max out at 100Y deal.
.
Negative. I shoot out to 235yds all the time. Shooting steel at that range is fun, and can be challenging if the wind picks up.
My cheap savage likes eley, wolf, and remington subs when I can find them.
Ended up with this:
http://i.imgur.com/ck80JeR.jpg
I got this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FMWMSG/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_awd_x_pmo5xbEB73XW8
Cut one and stuck it on the end of my bolt. I can dry fire without any problems now.
Now I have 99 extra o-rings. If anyone needs one, I'll mail one for $1 (cost of a stamp, an envelope, and my time to go to the post office), additional o-rings for $0.10 each.
Have you got around to shooting it yet?
conradpatriot
09-27-16, 21:55
The Savage Mk ll is a fantastic.22. Super accurate. Mine is an older one that was made before the accutrigger. I put a rifle basix in it and it will shoot quarter size groups at 75 yards with golden bullet.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'll second the opinion about the Savage MKII. Mine shoots good groups at 200 yards with Wolf 40g MT. You can hit 8" steel with regularity. On a no wind day I fired a 1-3/8” W x 2-3/8” H group at 208 yards
Shot about 300 rds on Saturday. Tested a bunch of ammo, it seems to like CCI Target standard velocity ammo the best. It printed atrocious groups with Blazer, like 6 MOA or something at 50 yards.
Can't go wrong with CZ=hammer forged barrels, had my 452 FS since 2008 and shoot the snot out of it. Till this day I'm still amazed on how accurate it still is, recently mounted a rear peep sight for shooing irons accurately...and it does
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/image_zpsls77r3gx.jpeg
Ended up with this:
http://i.imgur.com/ck80JeR.jpg
I got this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FMWMSG/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_awd_x_pmo5xbEB73XW8
Cut one and stuck it on the end of my bolt. I can dry fire without any problems now.
Now I have 99 extra o-rings. If anyone needs one, I'll mail one for $1 (cost of a stamp, an envelope, and my time to go to the post office), additional o-rings for $0.10 each.
I bought this gun too and I'm so impressed the features you get for the price. I added the A5 like stock for it but the stock it comes with isn't bad.
Nice review on a CZ
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/06/foghorn/gun-review-cz-455-varmint/
Can't go wrong with CZ=hammer forged barrels, had my 452 FS since 2008 and shoot the snot out of it. Till this day I'm still amazed on how accurate it still is, recently mounted a rear peep sight for shooing irons accurately...and it does
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/image_zpsls77r3gx.jpeg
That wood stock looks fabulous , especially for a .22LR. Nicely done.
Canonshooter
10-01-16, 03:55
The Savage has amazing potential for the price. Here is what I did with mine, complete with links to other threads;
Savage MKll-FV
Clearidge Ultra RM Rimfire Scope (http://www.clearidgeoptics.com/ultra-rm-s/1814.htm) with fine duplex/dot reticle in bedded mounts (http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555474)
Modified Boyds' Rimfire Hunter Stock (http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=556190)
Apachee Trigger set to 30 ounces
Mountain Shooter Sling (https://www.triadtactical.com/Mountain-Shooter-Sling.html)
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/rfh-15.jpg
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/rfh-16.jpg
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/rfh-17.jpg
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/FVtarget-2.jpg
That wood stock looks fabulous , especially for a .22LR. Nicely done.
Thanks...actually luck of the draw. When it arrived to my FFL he actually wanted to buy it from me
It's probably been said a few times in this thread but the CZ 455 is the best budget .22 in my opinion. All the Savage rimfire rifles I have shot(while very accurate) just feel like a toy compared to the CZ. My CZ has a chopped and threaded barrel and sits in a PDC custom chassis. I can put rounds in the same hole all day with cheap Eley ammo. Gun feels just like my centerfire rifle as far as ergonomics go.
Ben
This is my newest, a CZ 455 in an XLR Evolution Chassis.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/Dr_Wolfenstein/cz4_zps0umcjold.jpg
I was able to convince Nick at XLR to inlet these for the CZ action by hosting a group buy on the Hide. Now XLR will offer these as a standard inlet for the same price as the basic Evolution chassis. These pics are from XLR ans were posted on their FB page. I haven't received the chassis back, but it's supposed to arrive this Friday.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/Dr_Wolfenstein/cz2_zpsrzfc7t0r.jpg
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/Dr_Wolfenstein/cz1_zpsbknt8m5y.jpg
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/Dr_Wolfenstein/cz_zps7sqy6unx.jpg
Specs are: base CZ-455 action; Rifle Basix trigger; custom bolt knob using BO mini; modified firing pin; Lilja varmint taper 21" barrel; DIP AL bits (magwell, extended mag release, and magwell block), and Murphy Precision 20 MOA picatinny rail. For optics, using the Burris XTR II 5-25x50 with Mil SCR reticle:
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/Dr_Wolfenstein/IMG_4024_sm_zpsopnehslm.jpg
First range results with light winds to 8 MPH
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/Dr_Wolfenstein/CZ%20455%2010-27-16%20mixed_zpsp3hlt5vm.jpg
The chassis is the Evolution with the longer (14") handguard, tactical buttstock, and newer "buffer" stock tube that does not require a castle nut.
tigershilone
04-08-18, 21:00
So why is the bolt knob so important. Honestly that's the last thing I would think anyone would care about but it seems like everyone wants an upgraded knob.
Old thread but explaining pictures to update it with:
Stock CZ455 knob vs aftermarket threaded knob with the stock handle threaded to accept it. A lot easier to manipulate the bolt:
https://i.imgur.com/3grsiJ0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/QtVtt1S.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xNOMix5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gR1YjOw.jpg
tigershilone
04-08-18, 21:04
Unfortunately I cant do these anymore, CZ has changed teh way they cast their handles and now have a hollow area in the ball where I machine the threads. Cant machine metal that is not there and it isn't worth my time to TIG weld in new material to fill the hollow area. That's too bad as I had a fair amount of time invested into making this modification.
the new handle next to one of my conversions:
https://i.imgur.com/LdY0A8n.jpg
custom made tooling for holding handles:
https://i.imgur.com/1ShbgJG.jpg
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-14-18, 16:54
That looks sweet!
MI_Steve77
04-14-18, 22:22
Unfortunately I cant do these anymore, CZ has changed teh way they cast their handles and now have a hollow area in the ball where I machine the threads. Cant machine metal that is not there and it isn't worth my time to TIG weld in new material to fill the hollow area. That's too bad as I had a fair amount of time invested into making this modification.
the new handle next to one of my conversions:
https://i.imgur.com/LdY0A8n.jpg
custom made tooling for holding handles:
https://i.imgur.com/1ShbgJG.jpg
Nice setup! Too bad they changed the casting.
When did CZ change their bolts?
Curious if there is a way to tell if mine is hollow (left hand Lux).
tigershilone
04-14-18, 23:27
When did CZ change their bolts?
Curious if there is a way to tell if mine is hollow (left hand Lux).
Middle of 2016, started rolling out new hollow handles vs the old solid ball. You either have a solid ball or there is a hole in it, pretty easy to tell. I'm not set up to do left bolts anyway........
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