View Full Version : If Not A Emotion Like Love, What Causes A Dog To Sacrifice His Life For Another...?
It certainly isn't training, because every dog won't do it on command for just anybody.
But when a suitable bond exists dogs will die trying to protect humans they have bonded to. And in some cases won't be willing to live without them. The case of the warrior Yorozu who was killed in 587 being one of the earliest examples. Not only did his dog prevent anyone from removing his body, he laid by his masters side refusing food and starved himself to death. And in an unusual practice for the Japanese at the time, the dog was buried with his master.
In these cases dogs demonstrate more "humanity" than many humans. So why do they do it, and more importantly how?
Most of us have been taught that humans are the only self aware species on the planet capable of abstract thought, reason and emotions. Yet we have all seen dogs contemplate complex problems and solve them by some manner of reasoning. And we have seen them form powerful bonds with humans, other dogs and on occasion other species and have been willing to lay down their lives in sacrifice to protect those they are bonded with or even refuse to go on living without them.
And while we might decry a human with no loyalty as a "dog", the parent species they were domesticated from, wolves are one of the few monogamous mammal species known to exist. Something we seem to have breed out of them in the course of domesticating them.
Obviously it is a different kind of intelligence. They don't use tools to nearly the extent that humans employ them, but we have seen them pick up a stick and use it as a tool. They don't seem to have a capacity for algebra but seem to possess basic reasoning skills especially when it comes to eliminating threats or protecting packs and bonds.
And then there is the big one, dogs dream. This suggests a higher order brain function and the potential for abstract contemplation of the world around them. And they don't seem to simply be replaying movies of the days events. Dogs seem to exhibit a wide range of dream experiences from the happy (field full of rabbits that need chasing) to the distressing.
I sometimes catch my dog looking at me, and I wonder what he's thinking. Then I wonder if he isn't wondering about a very similar question.
Moose-Knuckle
08-18-16, 03:40
There is a sub-culture who claim to be sensitive to animal psychic communication.
Not my cup of tea but I cannot prove there is no such phenomenon either, a Google search will turn up some researchers in this area.
Instinct. It's just how they do.
In the limited time I have spent on this planet I have spent most of it with a Rottweiler by my side. I got my first at age 2 and she was incredibly loyal to me, we grew up together and she went everywhere with me. She was kind and loving but was also very fiercely protective and showed me all the love and adoration possible. She protected me from charging dogs numerous times in the park near my house that I grew up hanging out at and even once attacked a dog who attacked me for no apparent reason while walking in the park. She once even stepped in front of me and scared off the weird homeless guy who lived there as well when he tried to touch me. I firmly believe she would have died trying to protect me and been happy about it. She had no advanced training, only a basic dog obedience class at your local pet store.
We as a family had one after her that I was also the closest with and when that one passed I got two of my own. They are litter mates (brother and sister) brought up the same with the same amount of love and attention and the same amount of obedience training but they couldn't be more different. I'm genuinely convinced my girl (who has a better relationship with my lady) would watch me get eaten alive from a safe distance if my boy wasn't there. On the other hand I am pretty sure my boy who I have developed much more of a bond with would die trying to save me all by himself. The two of them together however I'm absolutely positive they would do anything they could to protect my lady and I including give their lives.
I often catch myself wondering what they're thinking when they're staring at me too and I always enjoy watching them when it is clear they are dreaming.
I am genuinely convinced by my experiences with dogs that love has some part in it but the majority is that it is instinctual for a dog to be protective of anyone they have a real bond with.
Instinct. It's just how they do.
Yep. They are pack animals and this governs all of their behaviors. This is why they take commands and defend what's theirs.
I still love them though. Almost nothing beats the loyalty of a good dog.
In the limited time I have spent on this planet I have spent most of it with a Rottweiler by my side. I got my first at age 2 and she was incredibly loyal to me, we grew up together and she went everywhere with me. She was kind and loving but was also very fiercely protective and showed me all the love and adoration possible. She protected me from charging dogs numerous times in the park near my house that I grew up hanging out at and even once attacked a dog who attacked me for no apparent reason while walking in the park. She once even stepped in front of me and scared off the weird homeless guy who lived there as well when he tried to touch me. I firmly believe she would have died trying to protect me and been happy about it. She had no advanced training, only a basic dog obedience class at your local pet store.
We as a family had one after her that I was also the closest with and when that one passed I got two of my own. They are litter mates (brother and sister) brought up the same with the same amount of love and attention and the same amount of obedience training but they couldn't be more different. I'm genuinely convinced my girl (who has a better relationship with my lady) would watch me get eaten alive from a safe distance if my boy wasn't there. On the other hand I am pretty sure my boy who I have developed much more of a bond with would die trying to save me all by himself. The two of them together however I'm absolutely positive they would do anything they could to protect my lady and I including give their lives.
I often catch myself wondering what they're thinking when they're staring at me too and I always enjoy watching them when it is clear they are dreaming.
I am genuinely convinced by my experiences with dogs that love has some part in it but the majority is that it is instinctual for a dog to be protective of anyone they have a real bond with.
I would love to get a Rottweiler again. I had a bitch when I was younger and she was far and away the best dog I ever had. Obedient and loyal to the extreme but tough as anything when she had to be and relaxed when the situation called for it.
I just can't get my wife onboard. She believes in shelter dogs only and on top of that is not overly fond of Rottweilers.
BoringGuy45
08-18-16, 08:57
I think dogs and cats are smarter, have a greater understanding of human communication, and have a wider range of emotion than we give them credit for.
sevenhelmet
08-18-16, 09:13
I think their loyalty is an extension of the pack animal instinct- once a dog adopts you into its "pack", as either a member or the alpha, then they'll lay down their life for you (if they're not too scared by a threat). But in order for that human loyalty to work, a dog needs the ability to recognize loyal behavior and form attachments. I think that in a dog's case, that includes a basic level of self-awareness. While it's based on instinct, it's not just pure instinct that attaches a dog to a human (e.g. lack of better options). A lifetime of having dogs makes me believe it's more complex than pure instinct. I think there are lots of self-aware animals out there, and it would be unscientifically arrogant of us to believe that we're the only self aware species on the planet. We do have an advantage in communication, learning, expression, and higher reasoning, but I think emotion and awareness are not unique to us.
Crow Hunter
08-18-16, 09:21
Don't get caught in the anthropomorphic trap.
It is purely pack instinct based on their position within their "pack" hierarchy. Everything they do is related to that. If they think they are Alpha or Beta, they will act a certain way. If they think they are the "enforcer" they will act a certain way. If they are the "mediator", they act a certain way. If they are the "nurturer", they act a certain way. This is all based on their temperment and how they are socialized as puppies and where they fit in the "pack". If there pack is small, they may take on a couple of different roles but they aren't thinking about what they are doing, merely reacting to stimuli based on their instinctual programming and their role in the pack.
There aren't "good dogs" and "bad dogs" there are only properly socialized and not properly socialized dogs. Although I am sure there are some with mental diseases that would make them serial killers or sociopaths in human terms.
They don't have human emotions the way we understand them though.
My two dumb labs, who are litter mates are also completely different dogs. They do have "personality" but it is maleable. Put them in situations where their "pack" positions are pushed and their "personality" will change.
It is funny to watch. I am the Alpha while my wife is sometimes interpreted as Beta but sometimes she is interpreted as the "nurturer" when that happens, one of them will try to assert that he is Beta and he has a complete "personality" change while the other continues on in his "mediator" position and tries to break up and "mediate" the inevitable "fight" that occurs between my wife and the black lab. This has been reduced significantly since he has gotten older and she has finally taken my advice and taken a more dominating attitude with him.
Similarly when my wife and I got married she had a dog that firmly believed that she was Alpha and my wife was Beta. She was a horrible dog. Until I came into the picture and became Alpha after about a week of pretty much constant domination on my part. I never hurt her but when I was outside and around her, I would randomly without warning push her down and force her to submit to me. My wife told me that I was "being mean" to her at first and that I should stop. I told her to just wait, you will see. Initially she fought back and even tried to nip/bite me but once she realized that I was Alpha she went from being required to be on a chain at all times to being able to be walked down the street without a leash and following commands to sit, lay down, come and heel. My wife thought it was a miracle. My wife said that the dog "loved me". I told her that no, I was now Alpha of the pack, and she obeyed because I was Alpha. Once my wife started doing what I did to the dog, the dog would then obey her as well. The dog didn't change, her role in the pack changed and once she realized she was no longer the "boss" she took on a different role. She wound up becoming "enforcer" so you still had to watch her around other dogs and new people.
So to make a long story slightly longer, it is pack instinct not "love" or "loyalty" the way humans understand it.
Yep. They are pack animals and this governs all of their behaviors. This is why they take commands and defend what's theirs.
I still love them though. Almost nothing beats the loyalty of a good dog.
I would love to get a Rottweiler again. I had a bitch when I was younger and she was far and away the best dog I ever had. Obedient and loyal to the extreme but tough as anything when she had to be and relaxed when the situation called for it.
I just can't get my wife onboard. She believes in shelter dogs only and on top of that is not overly fond of Rottweilers.
I have heard that a Pit is a very good breed for "knowing when and when not to exercise force" against someone, provided you properly socialize it, and it will typically not shy when you put pressure on it (say, someone kicks your door in, and it goes to barking at them. If they hit it with a bat, it's not going to run off. It's going to kill them or die trying, because it knows what's going on---it's being assaulted by someone not its alpha, and who IS a threat.
Yet I have been told they also know that the 5 year-old nephew pulling the ear is NOT the man with a baseball bat.
Thoughts on this? I am not talking about abused animals. I am talking about a healthy, properly socialized pit with normal breeding.
Anyone who thinks dogs do not have emotion and some minute form of cognition are in denial or blind. I can tell when my dog is irritated, happy, tired, and so on.
I trust dogs more than humans.
“The more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.”
― Mark Twain
Yep. They are pack animals and this governs all of their behaviors. This is why they take commands and defend what's theirs.
I still love them though. Almost nothing beats the loyalty of a good dog.
I would love to get a Rottweiler again. I had a bitch when I was younger and she was far and away the best dog I ever had. Obedient and loyal to the extreme but tough as anything when she had to be and relaxed when the situation called for it.
I just can't get my wife onboard. She believes in shelter dogs only and on top of that is not overly fond of Rottweilers.
Lucked out.. My lady had a Rottie growing up as well and when we had the opportunity to get two of them for free as pups we jumped at it. Between my parents and I we currently have 5 Rotties. They're great with all the nieces and nephews. I wish you good luck convincing your wife!
I have heard that a Pit is a very good breed for "knowing when and when not to exercise force" against someone, provided you properly socialize it, and it will typically not shy when you put pressure on it (say, someone kicks your door in, and it goes to barking at them. If they hit it with a bat, it's not going to run off. It's going to kill them or die trying, because it knows what's going on---it's being assaulted by someone not its alpha, and who IS a threat.
Yet I have been told they also know that the 5 year-old nephew pulling the ear is NOT the man with a baseball bat.
Thoughts on this? I am not talking about abused animals. I am talking about a healthy, properly socialized pit with normal breeding.
That's how my Rottweiler was. The first time I saw it I was nervous and literally sprinted in to stop it. One of my friends married a girl with a 3 year old and moved them out to him. We had a 4th of July cook out at a park and the girl immediately was excited at the sight of my dog (her mother explained they had one at her dad's house in Sacramento) and grabbed two fistfuls of ears and started hanging. I ran in to shut that down immediately while the child's mom was saying "its alright, that's how she played with my dad's Rottweiler" and I was pleased to see she did not react in any way other than play with the child. I still broke it up and made the play less rough and under my direct supervision because you can never be too safe around animals when kids are involved.
Anyone who thinks dogs do not have emotion and some minute form of cognition are in denial or blind. I can tell when my dog is irritated, happy, tired, and so on.
I trust dogs more than humans.
Noone is saying otherwise, but they sacrifice themselves out of instinct, not some altruistic or agape love reasoning.
Outlander Systems
08-18-16, 10:06
I'm with Endur on this one.
I've seen more "humanity" out of dogs than 90% of "humans".
This is amazing food for thought.
As the Alpha of my Girlfriend's and I's Mutt (she's a chocolate lab dachshund mix; she's practically a thick 30-40lb tube of muscle with stubby legs) she takes on the role of enforcer pretty heavily, nearly always. She is great walking, won't bark, won't have many issues. Get her in "her" locations. The back of the car, in the home, etc, she is very verbal and affirmative of whom is welcome and who is not. It works great, most of the time, we have an "X" taped onto the ground where she sits during all door openings and closings. Close enough to observe, see the person, identify, and respond if needed.
Now, where her role changes is unique.
Sometimes the Girlfriend's parents will dogsit for us while we go on a trip, or go somewhere for the day where we feel the dog should be watched, and she changes into to the Beta there. The Alpha is no longer me though, it's the girl's father.
She'll grab toys, want to overly play, be far more disobedient than when with us on our own terms.
Chalk this up to a dog knowing what they can get away with at "Grandparent's" house; or maybe they are just instinctively reverting to a different pack role to "fit in"; or just having us trained enough to get our attention when we are there.
Once we leave her, apparently she calms down and relaxes for the GPa, but it's a funny situation any which way.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-18-16, 10:31
Good dogs seem to have the mentality that they are on your team, they have your back and they zero tolerance for bad things happening.
Plus, if you want to know where is the best choke point to control your house, see where your dog sleeps.
The drive that makes them do that? Millions of years of pack mentality ancestors, a highly pliable DNA and 20,000 years of evolutionary pressure from humans for these traits is the scientific answer. But then there are the dogs that see an owner after a long absence, and it is hard to discount that there is real emotion at play there.
Dogs seem to love me. It's almost like my have heard of my ear scratching abilities.
I think dogs and cats are smarter, have a greater understanding of human communication, and have a wider range of emotion than we give them credit for.
This. I lost my best friend a little over a month ago to cancer. He was 14. I am convinced they feel love. I am convinced they understand us far more than we know. I have been through a lot in the last few years and I still shake my head at some on the things he did while I was down that can really only be explained by having a loving/caring nature.
Regardless of how you view it, they hold characteristics and are much better friends/beings than most humans.
I have heard that a Pit is a very good breed for "knowing when and when not to exercise force" against someone, provided you properly socialize it, and it will typically not shy when you put pressure on it (say, someone kicks your door in, and it goes to barking at them. If they hit it with a bat, it's not going to run off. It's going to kill them or die trying, because it knows what's going on---it's being assaulted by someone not its alpha, and who IS a threat.
Yet I have been told they also know that the 5 year-old nephew pulling the ear is NOT the man with a baseball bat.
Thoughts on this? I am not talking about abused animals. I am talking about a healthy, properly socialized pit with normal breeding.
I had a pitbull in the early 70's - they were primarily known as staffordshire terriers back then. He was with us through the birth of our two boys and their young years. He definitely took some abuse from unknowing youngsters. One day he was laying next to our first son, who was playing with a playschool pound the peg hammer set. I happened to glance up just as my son looked at the peg, looked at the hammer then whapped Wrinkles with the hammer right between the eyes. Wrinkles shook his head, looked at me like WTF, got up and moved away.
Wrinkles, a rescue German Shepahrd, and a Rottie that my son had when he started his family, were the smartest, most intuitive dogs I've ever owned.
Speaking to what CrowHunter was talking about -
I raised boxers for years. At one point Vladimir, my male, had an incident with the neighbors dog - my fault entirely - and I thought it was best to find him a home elsewhere. When the guy who had agreed to take him and my remaining female, Sasha, showed up to pick Vladimir up I wasn't home and my wife handled the turn-over (I had previously met with the guy and inspected the property - it was an ideal set up for Vladimir and Sasha). Vladimir went with Sasha into the crates without any problem. The next day the guy called and said I don't think it is going to work, Vladimir is growling at me, and acting aggressive. It dawned on me that Vladimir still thought he was my dog. I went out to the guy's house, greeted Vladimir, played a little with him, then had him sit, handed the lead to the other guy, shook his hand and turned and walked away. It worked. This saddened me because it meant I would never be able to see him or Sasha again.
When I read CrowHunter's post it seemed to dovetail with my experience in this incident.
It is kind of weird, and really don't know where I got the idea, but when I get a new male, at some point I go into the backyard and mark it, and them. Seems to work.
I think dogs and men really do have a connection. Look at War Dogs and K9s.
There is a place where training ends and a real bond begins.
WickedWillis
08-18-16, 13:05
I think dogs and cats are smarter, have a greater understanding of human communication, and have a wider range of emotion than we give them credit for.
I agree very much with this.
So to make a long story slightly longer, it is pack instinct not "love" or "loyalty" the way humans understand it.
One could probably argue that human emotions are some form of instinct and little more and have something of a point.
But are you really saying that when a dog starves itself to death (suicide) rather than continue living without a person they are bonded to that such actions are nothing more than instinct?
Plus, if you want to know where is the best choke point to control your house, see where your dog sleeps.
My cat does this.
If I were a 7" tall 5 lb sniper, I'd be posting up where my cat hangs out.
My cat does this.
If I were a 7" tall 5 lb sniper, I'd be posting up where my cat hangs out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhfVgNKjFKE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhfVgNKjFKE
Imagine using a Tiger instead of a GSD in combat. That'd be horrifying. Hell, my house cat would be terrifying if I was anywhere near her size, +/- 50%. Just last night I was watching Forgotten Weapons on youtube in bed and I looked down and suddenly my cat was next to me. I didn't hear her enter the room, didn't hear or feel her jump on the bed, and didn't hear or feel her walk on the bed. She just appeared next to me watching the history of the Barret M82.
Also, you could call combat tiger units C@ instead of K9.
Yea trained attack Cats would just about terrifying! I've got an inside/outside Russian Blue cat that weighs about 17lbs and he's an absolute killer. We no longer have any squirrels in our yard or most of the cul de sac. Very rare to see one now. If he were the size of my Lab,75lbs, only way to stop him would be to shoot him. Funny thing about him though is that he shares a bed with my dog. They are best buds.
Yea trained attack Cats would just about terrifying! I've got an inside/outside Russian Blue cat that weighs about 17lbs and he's an absolute killer. We no longer have any squirrels in our yard or most of the cul de sac. Very rare to see one now. If he were the size of my Lab,75lbs, only way to stop him would be to shoot him. Funny thing about him though is that he shares a bed with my dog. They are best buds.
Or an even bigger cat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqep-QbGww
Or an even bigger cat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqep-QbGww
Not sure if that was a legit attack or not. Regardless it was a nice intercept.
titsonritz
08-18-16, 16:43
I think dogs and cats are smarter, have a greater understanding of human communication, and have a wider range of emotion than we give them credit for.
Anyone who thinks dogs do not have emotion and some minute form of cognition are in denial or blind. I can tell when my dog is irritated, happy, tired, and so on.
I trust dogs more than humans.
I agree 100%.
As to the OP, it is love, pure and simple.
I can see how defending an owner or house can be pack mentality and instinct. But it has been documented that dogs can go through depression at the loss of an owner or fellow companion. I've personally witnessed that with the last GSD I rescued whose owner had went to work, had a stroke driving home, and ended up wrecking his car and becoming paralyzed. She never saw him again. She had the worst separation anxiety I had ever seen. And after training that out of her, she would still never lay down or rest until I would get back home everyday. Depression is an emotional response to a loss, pack mentality would dictate she fill the role of the now missing/dead alpha pack member.
I remember and get chills when that GSD had to be put down. I got home and had to put her in the ground and my pitt, who was just a pup, saw her dead body and completely lost it. He literally screamed and I couldn't restrain him from going to her, I had never and still have yet to hear a dog make that kind of noise. I ended up having to put him in the house and could still hear him from 200 yards away.
Fast forward to now, my new GSD will stare at me for a solid hour while she's lying down. As soon as I look over at her, her tail starts wagging. It never fails, she won't get up but if I look away and look back it starts going again. To me that describes how much joy she gets just from me looking at her. It cracks me up every time.
But maybe I'm just looking at it all wrong. To be honest I don't really care I guess, they make my life complete and they can bond with me for whatever reasons they want to.
Not sure if that was a legit attack or not. Regardless it was a nice intercept.
Probably not. I think it was a play attack on the leopard's part, cats usually stalk a bit closer before breaking into a sprint. But even a play attack by a leopard can ruin your day/life.
Also that tiger was on to the leopard for a few seconds before the leopard even started his approach. When the tiger put his legs under his body, that's like a pre-pounce/ready stance.
Did you see how the guy didn't even notice what was going on until the tiger had already intercepted the leopard? Cats are scary man.
I like how those lions couldn't care less. They look up for a second then go back to doing whatever they were doing.
I can see how defending an owner or house can be pack mentality and instinct. But it has been documented that dogs can go through depression at the loss of an owner or fellow companion. I've personally witnessed that with the last GSD I rescued whose owner had went to work, had a stroke driving home, and ended up wrecking his car and becoming paralyzed. She never saw him again. She had the worst separation anxiety I had ever seen. And after training that out of her, she would still never lay down or rest until I would get back home everyday. Depression is an emotional response to a loss, pack mentality would dictate she fill the role of the now missing/dead alpha pack member.
I remember and get chills when that GSD had to be put down. I got home and had to put her in the ground and my pitt, who was just a pup, saw her dead body and completely lost it. He literally screamed and I couldn't restrain him from going to her, I had never and still have yet to hear a dog make that kind of noise. I ended up having to put him in the house and could still hear him from 200 yards away.
Fast forward to now, my new GSD will stare at me for a solid hour while she's lying down. As soon as I look over at her, her tail starts wagging. It never fails, she won't get up but if I look away and look back it starts going again. To me that describes how much joy she gets just from me looking at her. It cracks me up every time.
But maybe I'm just looking at it all wrong. To be honest I don't really care I guess, they make my life complete and they can bond with me for whatever reasons they want to.
Another cat story: My cat cries when I leave for work every day. My Mom came to stay with me once and when I went to work, she said my cat stood at the door and had this really sad meow, and wouldn't stop for like an hour, which shows it's not loneliness in general, it's specifically me that she misses. My cat also greets me at the door when I come home and follows me around the house wherever I go, even if it's just to sleep in the same room as I'm watching TV or whatever... or to make sure I'm ok in the bathroom or shower. She tries to sleep next to me at night, but I generally toss and turn so she gets fed up at some point and goes off to do her own nocturnal thing.
As cats (besides lions) aren't generally known as pack animals, I don't know how the "alpha/beta" thing works with them. They might see humans as their actual parents. But then why do they bring dead animals? Are they showing off or do they feel bad for your terrible hunting skills or is it a present?
I've been a professional dog trainer since the early 90's. I work dogs all day every day. I've competed at the highest levels of professional bite work sports, and won many National Titles. I'm the guy people call when vets and other trainers tell them to euthanize their aggressive dog. I've personally raised and trained dozens of puppies. I've put my hands on hundreds if not thousands of dogs in some manner of training or problem solving, or just working them. I feel qualified to answer the questions raised on this thread.
The answer is all of the above. Steyr is right, and so is Crowhunter. I think the quote that best sums it up was from Firefly:
I think dogs and men really do have a connection. Look at War Dogs and K9s.
There is a place where training ends and a real bond begins.
When we see these rare cases of "altruistic" dogs, it is due to training, upbringing, time spent working with the dog, the individual dog's personality and traits, genetics, the handler/trainers ability, all the things the handler/trainer did or didn't do, and sometimes its just the circumstances. Like the man said: There is a place where training ends and a real bond begins. What I'm adding is that this is a rare circumstance, and few people will ever see it. Most of what we see is the instinct that Crowhunter talked about. He described the science of dog behavior perfectly. But in rare cases, there is just more to it than that. People who have not seen it doubt it, and most people haven't seen it. Most day to day interaction and behavior fits into Crowhunter's mold, but that are just certain times when it goes beyond that, and that, it seems to me is the topic of this thread.
There are certainly genetic, instinctual factors at work here. Compare what a German Shepard or Malinois will do for its person to what a lab or cocker would do in the same situation. Not the same thing. I can protection train any dog, but I'll get a lot farther with a Mal or a GSD. I've protection trained Danes, Standard poodles, corgis, jack russel terriers, dobermans, labs, rottweilers, bull mastiffs, pit bulls, and many others. All have their quirks and limitations. Dutch Shepards tend to be hard hard dogs. They want the fight so bad that they will fight the handler, decoy and trainer all at once to get their bite and keep it. Mals and most GSDs have at least some "handler sensitivity" built into them. But look at pit bulls. Similar to the Dutch, we have bred them to ignore the pain, ignore any nuance of self preservation, and fight to the death. Wolves won't do this. Any wild animal will cut and run with even a little resistance. If wolves actually fought over every dispute within the pack, they would tear each other to shreds and the species would have gone extinct long ago. Instead wolves and many other wild animals engage in "ritualistic combat". Lots of sound and fury, but very little actual damage. Sometimes dogs will do this too, but often they don't. Because of these facts, we can't just write all this off as simple instinct. There are genetic AND environmental factors at work here. Nature AND nurture, and not all dogs are created equal in this respect.
But in addition to these instincts, or lack thereof as the case may be, there is something more that only certain dogs seem to display. Seldom do people in our society attain this bond anymore, but it seems a few of you guys know what I'm talking about. Many people will have dogs their whole lives and never reach the point we are discussing. The people who usually see it are police and military guys, or service dog people. Once you have spent enough time with a dog, and its one of these individual dogs that has this innate bonding ability, a very special level of relationship can be achieved. I've reached this level with only seven dogs in the last quarter century. I'm not going to call it psychic, but there is a level of intuitiveness that is seldom seen. I tested this. My second dog that I reached this level with was named Twister. I could stand in front of her and think of behaviors and she'd do them. Sit, down, stay, beg up, on-your-side, etc… If I walked around the corner, out of her sight, and thought of the same behaviors, she'd just sit there. She was so tuned into me and interested in complying with my wishes that even though I was trying to be still and not move a muscle, I was giving her the most subtle of cues from eye movements or breath patterns, or who knows what. But she had to see me for it to work.
Another way I describe this is when I reach a certain level with a dog, I can just speak English to the dog, and they understand. The best dog that ever lived was a dog named Bullet. I raised him from a pup. We competed in dog sports together and he went to work with me all over the world and did 100's of jobs with me. To say that we loved each other does not even begin to describe our bond. That dog would literally do anything for me. Once we were out on a hike in the evening and I got out a little too far and waited a little too long to start coming back. In the dusk, I could not make out my landmarks to get back. I was not far from civilization and I could see the lights on one side, but I couldn't find the trail. I was in no danger, but man I did not want to go cross country and trudge through the thorns and foxtails. Frustrated with myself, and just talking for no good reason, I looked at Bullet and flippantly said, "Get us out of here Bullet. Find the damn trail". I meant it as a joke. I'd never taught him to track or do anything like this. Plus he was always more of a visual dog than a scent dog anyway. Well you can guess what happened. He turned around, ran back the way we came, put his nose to the ground and ran about 20 yards to the left of where we entered this clearing and stood there looking at me as if to say "C'mon dummy. Let's go!" I hesitated for just a second. "No way did he just do that", I thought to myself. Incredulously I walked over to where he was and there was one of the landmarks I'd missed. Right at the head of the trail I'd been searching for. He did this three times on that walk and got us right back to the car. He just knew what I wanted, and most importantly, he wanted to do it for me. I find that this "willingness", is the main missing "ingredient" for the times when dogs aren't this good. I've worked with lots and lots of very "smart" dogs. Quick learners, eager beavers, adept problem solvers, but not all dogs display this element of wanting to please their person, and actively, diligently thinking about how to achieve the goal of making the master happy.
So its really a combination of things. Doesn't matter how much time you spend, doesn't matter how smart the dogs is, doesn't matter how much you love the dog, without this element of willingness, the magic we are speaking of won't happen. Bullet finally died at 13.5 and now I work Bullet's son. He is the snarler in my avatar. Seven is his name. This is the first time I've done this back to back with the same genetics, but Seven is just like his Daddy. If I leave town for a day, he is beside himself. He will work for other people, but he wants to work for me. I have no doubt that just like his Daddy, Seven would kill or die for me and he shows the same level of intuitiveness. Drives my wife crazy. "That's your dog", she says. I counter with, this dog would DIE for you if I wasn't even home. She answers with, "Only because he thinks you'd want him to…" She's right!
^^^ that's awesome. I have an amazing dog now that's my best friend. He listens well enough and is "proper" so to speak but he's. It a trick doing dog. He's just a good ole friend and he has a natural instinct to protect what is his rather it be me or the house/car.
I never worked with him to be awesome at obedience I just wanted a "good" dog that didn't jump or bite the neighbors but watching professional handlers work their dogs is truly amazing.
I once watched a military trainer do a show and he had a two dogs thy worked as a team. It was scary how vicious they were in command and how he could make them stop inches from you and start wagging their tail. They KNEW that at any time they would let you let them or rip your face off with the words.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160819/6401692334cbe6594bb541199733eacf.jpg
Here is just a regular old dog with my rifle lol.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Imagine using a Tiger instead of a GSD in combat.
I'll go one better. Baboon. As fierce as any cat, but with built in loyalty. The males fight off leopards and chimps in the wild. I've considered the idea many times, but I can't think of a suit to use for practice and training that would adequately protect the helper.
I'd say chimp too, but as soon as it realized it could kick your a$$, it would. Ever seen the footage of those chimps on the war path. Scary stuff.
I'll go one better. Baboon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5QLvoLxSow Sands of the Kalahari
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5QLvoLxSow Sands of the Kalahari
That is one of the most ridiculous movie scenes I've ever seen in every way measurable. But funny.
But in addition to these instincts, or lack thereof as the case may be, there is something more that only certain dogs seem to display. Seldom do people in our society attain this bond anymore, but it seems a few of you guys know what I'm talking about. Many people will have dogs their whole lives and never reach the point we are discussing. The people who usually see it are police and military guys, or service dog people. Once you have spent enough time with a dog, and its one of these individual dogs that has this innate bonding ability, a very special level of relationship can be achieved. I've reached this level with only seven dogs in the last quarter century. I'm not going to call it psychic, but there is a level of intuitiveness that is seldom seen. I tested this. My second dog that I reached this level with was named Twister. I could stand in front of her and think of behaviors and she'd do them. Sit, down, stay, beg up, on-your-side, etc… If I walked around the corner, out of her sight, and thought of the same behaviors, she'd just sit there. She was so tuned into me and interested in complying with my wishes that even though I was trying to be still and not move a muscle, I was giving her the most subtle of cues from eye movements or breath patterns, or who knows what. But she had to see me for it to work.
I almost touched on this. I used to work with a bunch of K9 trainers and some of my dogs were GSDs who flunked the "ok now let go" portion of qualifying. I was around them enough to become pretty familiar with the training program, especially since most of it wasn't relevant to a personal dog that wouldn't be involved in LE work.
Regarding the "almost psychic" part I always combined verbal command with hand signals until the dog would respond to hand signal commands only. While working with some of these dogs, I began to realize they were tuned in a lot more than I understood. They were not only reading hand signals but body posture and things like that. I was able to achieve completely non verbal communication with a few of them and to an outsider it probably did look like mental telepathy.
Not only would they take command cues from body language, they could accurately gauge the severity of the situation. They knew the difference between practice runs and "we got goblins in the yard."
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-19-16, 05:13
That Chavez guy doesn't 'fix' dogs, he fixes dog Owners.
Like Demi Moore says in a Few Good Men
Galloway: Because they stand on a wall and say, "Nothing's going to hurt you tonight, not on my watch."
That's how I feel every night when I leave the dog downstairs to go to bed. I think dogs have their own version of "surrounded by a pile of brass, covered in other people's blood".
I think dogs and cats are smarter, have a greater understanding of human communication, and have a wider range of emotion than we give them credit for.
Anyone who thinks dogs do not have emotion and some minute form of cognition are in denial or blind. I can tell when my dog is irritated, happy, tired, and so on. I trust dogs more than humans.
I'm with Endur on this one. I've seen more "humanity" out of dogs than 90% of "humans".
I am convinced they feel love. I am convinced they understand us far more than we know. I have been through a lot in the last few years and I still shake my head at some on the things he did while I was down that can really only be explained by having a loving/caring nature.
Regardless of how you view it, they hold characteristics and are much better friends/beings than most humans.
These prior posts pretty much describe where I am at on the question.
That is one of the most ridiculous movie scenes I've ever seen in every way measurable. But funny.
Bulletdog, you post above was awesome.
As far as apes go, I am more of a Clyde type of Man myself.
https://youtu.be/i98QrSSHxo4
ramairthree
08-19-16, 07:39
What is your experience with the Dutch/Mal working dogs?
Basically, that line of working dogs here winning lots of IPO etc. that come from litters with a mix of brindles they call Dutch Sheppards (even though the guys that do DS show dogs hate that) and fawns they call malinois, etc.
I've been a professional dog trainer since the early 90's. I work dogs all day every day. I've competed at the highest levels of professional bite work sports, and won many National Titles. I'm the guy people call when vets and other trainers tell them to euthanize their aggressive dog. I've personally raised and trained dozens of puppies. I've put my hands on hundreds if not thousands of dogs in some manner of training or problem solving, or just working them. I feel qualified to answer the questions raised on this thread.
The answer is all of the above. Steyr is right, and so is Crowhunter. I think the quote that best sums it up was from Firefly:
When we see these rare cases of "altruistic" dogs, it is due to training, upbringing, time spent working with the dog, the individual dog's personality and traits, genetics, the handler/trainers ability, all the things the handler/trainer did or didn't do, and sometimes its just the circumstances. Like the man said: There is a place where training ends and a real bond begins. What I'm adding is that this is a rare circumstance, and few people will ever see it. Most of what we see is the instinct that Crowhunter talked about. He described the science of dog behavior perfectly. But in rare cases, there is just more to it than that. People who have not seen it doubt it, and most people haven't seen it. Most day to day interaction and behavior fits into Crowhunter's mold, but that are just certain times when it goes beyond that, and that, it seems to me is the topic of this thread.
There are certainly genetic, instinctual factors at work here. Compare what a German Shepard or Malinois will do for its person to what a lab or cocker would do in the same situation. Not the same thing. I can protection train any dog, but I'll get a lot farther with a Mal or a GSD. I've protection trained Danes, Standard poodles, corgis, jack russel terriers, dobermans, labs, rottweilers, bull mastiffs, pit bulls, and many others. All have their quirks and limitations. Dutch Shepards tend to be hard hard dogs. They want the fight so bad that they will fight the handler, decoy and trainer all at once to get their bite and keep it. Mals and most GSDs have at least some "handler sensitivity" built into them. But look at pit bulls. Similar to the Dutch, we have bred them to ignore the pain, ignore any nuance of self preservation, and fight to the death. Wolves won't do this. Any wild animal will cut and run with even a little resistance. If wolves actually fought over every dispute within the pack, they would tear each other to shreds and the species would have gone extinct long ago. Instead wolves and many other wild animals engage in "ritualistic combat". Lots of sound and fury, but very little actual damage. Sometimes dogs will do this too, but often they don't. Because of these facts, we can't just write all this off as simple instinct. There are genetic AND environmental factors at work here. Nature AND nurture, and not all dogs are created equal in this respect.
But in addition to these instincts, or lack thereof as the case may be, there is something more that only certain dogs seem to display. Seldom do people in our society attain this bond anymore, but it seems a few of you guys know what I'm talking about. Many people will have dogs their whole lives and never reach the point we are discussing. The people who usually see it are police and military guys, or service dog people. Once you have spent enough time with a dog, and its one of these individual dogs that has this innate bonding ability, a very special level of relationship can be achieved. I've reached this level with only seven dogs in the last quarter century. I'm not going to call it psychic, but there is a level of intuitiveness that is seldom seen. I tested this. My second dog that I reached this level with was named Twister. I could stand in front of her and think of behaviors and she'd do them. Sit, down, stay, beg up, on-your-side, etc… If I walked around the corner, out of her sight, and thought of the same behaviors, she'd just sit there. She was so tuned into me and interested in complying with my wishes that even though I was trying to be still and not move a muscle, I was giving her the most subtle of cues from eye movements or breath patterns, or who knows what. But she had to see me for it to work.
Another way I describe this is when I reach a certain level with a dog, I can just speak English to the dog, and they understand. The best dog that ever lived was a dog named Bullet. I raised him from a pup. We competed in dog sports together and he went to work with me all over the world and did 100's of jobs with me. To say that we loved each other does not even begin to describe our bond. That dog would literally do anything for me. Once we were out on a hike in the evening and I got out a little too far and waited a little too long to start coming back. In the dusk, I could not make out my landmarks to get back. I was not far from civilization and I could see the lights on one side, but I couldn't find the trail. I was in no danger, but man I did not want to go cross country and trudge through the thorns and foxtails. Frustrated with myself, and just talking for no good reason, I looked at Bullet and flippantly said, "Get us out of here Bullet. Find the damn trail". I meant it as a joke. I'd never taught him to track or do anything like this. Plus he was always more of a visual dog than a scent dog anyway. Well you can guess what happened. He turned around, ran back the way we came, put his nose to the ground and ran about 20 yards to the left of where we entered this clearing and stood there looking at me as if to say "C'mon dummy. Let's go!" I hesitated for just a second. "No way did he just do that", I thought to myself. Incredulously I walked over to where he was and there was one of the landmarks I'd missed. Right at the head of the trail I'd been searching for. He did this three times on that walk and got us right back to the car. He just knew what I wanted, and most importantly, he wanted to do it for me. I find that this "willingness", is the main missing "ingredient" for the times when dogs aren't this good. I've worked with lots and lots of very "smart" dogs. Quick learners, eager beavers, adept problem solvers, but not all dogs display this element of wanting to please their person, and actively, diligently thinking about how to achieve the goal of making the master happy.
So its really a combination of things. Doesn't matter how much time you spend, doesn't matter how smart the dogs is, doesn't matter how much you love the dog, without this element of willingness, the magic we are speaking of won't happen. Bullet finally died at 13.5 and now I work Bullet's son. He is the snarler in my avatar. Seven is his name. This is the first time I've done this back to back with the same genetics, but Seven is just like his Daddy. If I leave town for a day, he is beside himself. He will work for other people, but he wants to work for me. I have no doubt that just like his Daddy, Seven would kill or die for me and he shows the same level of intuitiveness. Drives my wife crazy. "That's your dog", she says. I counter with, this dog would DIE for you if I wasn't even home. She answers with, "Only because he thinks you'd want him to…" She's right!
Bulletdog, you post above was awesome.
As far as apes go, I am more of a Clyde type of Man myself.
I never worked with "Clyde", but the guys who did were mentors of mine. Orangs are awesome. Scary smart too. Everyone talks about the intelligence of pigs, dogs, dolphins, parrots, corvids and elephants, but none of those are anywhere near as smart as an orangutan. Its the closest thing to dealing with another human I have seen in the animal kingdom.
Regarding the "almost psychic" part I always combined verbal command with hand signals until the dog would respond to hand signal commands only. While working with some of these dogs, I began to realize they were tuned in a lot more than I understood. They were not only reading hand signals but body posture and things like that. I was able to achieve completely non verbal communication with a few of them and to an outsider it probably did look like mental telepathy.
One of my benchmark tests for training up any dog is that they have to do all their commands with verbal only and the handler behind them or out of sight, and they have to do all their commands with hand signals and no verbal at all.
Know what else is fun and challenging? Train them to work through a walky-talky at great distance from the handler. Oddly, most of them hear the sound, but the electronic reproduction of the human voice just doesn't seem to carry any weight with them at first. Even a smart dog usually takes 2 or 3 days to figure it out.
My labs all work with hand signals as well as verbal commands. I run field trials and hunt tests with them and when running blind retrieves they will take hand casts to a bird with varying degrees. Meaning I can give them angled casts or straight back or 90 degree left or right casts. Even come in casts to varying degrees also. There are some blind retrieves where we will have to thread them threw cover and if we miss the specific cover or have to battle the dog to get them to do it you are pretty much out of the trial. It's amazing how literal they will take a cast. BTW a blind retrieve is where the dog does not have a clue where a bird has been placed or shot in a real hunting situation and you have to send you dog to retrieve it using hand signals to get him to the bird.
What is your experience with the Dutch/Mal working dogs?
Basically, that line of working dogs here winning lots of IPO etc. that come from litters with a mix of brindles they call Dutch Sheppards (even though the guys that do DS show dogs hate that) and fawns they call malinois, etc.
I was apprenticing in late '91 with a guy who did lots of protection dog work. We had just finished working a bunch of bite gained bull mastiffs, a wolf/GSD hybrid that was personal potation trained (probably one of the most dangerous animals I've ever seen to this day…) and a Schutzhund III GSD German import. Our contact asks my mentor if I'm ready to take a hit from "Diva". He sort of shrugged his shoulders. Being young, eager and inexperienced, I proclaim, "Hell yeah, I'm ready!. Go get Diva!" Mona comes out of the house with this little female that looks like a shepard mix from the pound. "What is that?", I ask. In her thick Hungarian accent Mona proclaims its a "melon law". "A malamute?" "NO! A melin waaa." "Okay. Well, send her, I'm ready!" They exchanged a look of uncertainty, and they she sent her on me with a word I'd never heard.
I had never seen any animal of any species cover that much ground that fast. I barely got the sleeve up in time and she knocked be onto my back about 8 feet from where we started. They quickly pulled her off of me and as my mentor stood over me laughing, when I regained the ability to breathe again, I asked in a raspy voice, "What kind of dog was that again?" "That was a malinois." "I got to get me one of those some day…"
After that introduction to the breed, it was 10 years until I got my first mal in 2001. Bullet. He competed 21 times and got 1st place 19 times. The two times he got second, my fellow competitors told me I was cheated. The club I worked with had many mals and Dutches from at least two distinctly different lines. Their personalities and traits were all very different. I've heard other people consider Dutches and Mals different colors of the same breed, and I know some people mix them, but from my experience with the lines I've worked with, they are VERY different animals in many ways. The Dutches in my club were stone cold killers. No thought of their own safety or well being. Not enough respect for the handler to out half the time. Full on gladiators. Dangerous dogs really. The Mals tended to think about things more, which is good for some situations and bad for others. The Mals would generally out for their trainers if we did things right and had the right foundation. Only the mals progressed to the top of the sport. No other breed could make it, but the Dutches came the closest.
Here is my three dog team of those days:
http://i67.tinypic.com/a9xmrr.jpg
That is Bullet on the left. Brownie, his littermate brother, is in the middle. They were big dogs out of Belgian lines. Low prey drive, high fight drive. 90 and 85 pounds respectively. And thats Hank, my Dutch on the right. His Daddy was/is the hardest hitting dog I've ever seen. He enjoyed hurting people. Hank was a quirky weirdo, but very lovable to those who got to know him. The three of them would full on agitate loose together and never glance sideways at each other. Bumping shoulders, swapping sides, all the while focused forward. For a time I had a fourth mal that was a younger sibling from the same sire and dam as Bullet and Brownie, but I left him in South Africa with a friend.
I don't know what it is about GSD/Wolf hybrids. Every time I come across a wolf hybrid, that's the one. Maybe it is because the GSD already has the longer snout, I don't know but people seem to love making that hybrid. I encountered one as a child and even just being a kid I knew not to **** with that dog. It just wasn't the same.
ramairthree
08-19-16, 12:07
I had a white Shepard 50/50 wolf hybrid for 15 years.
Smartest and most loyal and most fit dog I have ever had.
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/ramairfour/image_zpsnmmea52x.jpeg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/ramairfour/media/image_zpsnmmea52x.jpeg.html)
I am not a professional trainer, but have been working with working dogs for 35 years now.
I have been blessed with some remarkable dogs that were also companions and even friends. IMO, sometimes that next level only comes when your the right person for a particular dog, I would say more than often the human is the weakest link. While not all canines are smart, most are willing in spades...
I do feel much is done on pure instinct, very hard to argue against that, but to say there is not more going on is silly....Anyone that has much time involved with canines has seen it firsthand. "Man's best friend"? I think so.
Bulletdog, good looking trio👍
I agree completely with you on the Mal/Dutch's, I have a five year old Dutch that's has more drive than a battalion of Marines. Dangerous, reckless drive... Handler aggressive, you bet...I work him/run/walk him 2 hours a day to keep him even. If I could figure out how to post a pic on this phone I would, he is a remarkable specimen that truly should be dragging hadji down a dirt road in the Middle East somewhere-
I think dogs and cats are smarter, have a greater understanding of human communication, and have a wider range of emotion than we give them credit for.
I agree, my black lab absolutely loves me, without question. She even gets jealous of my wife.
She also works with hand signals very well around the house and in the field.
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-2/p854428661-5.jpg
I agree, my black lab absolutely loves me, without question. She even gets jealous of my wife.
She also works with hand signals very well around the house and in the field.
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-2/p854428661-5.jpg
^^^ Beauty👍
RioGrandeGreen
08-21-16, 23:39
Yea trained attack Cats would just about terrifying! I've got an inside/outside Russian Blue cat that weighs about 17lbs and he's an absolute killer. We no longer have any squirrels in our yard or most of the cul de sac. Very rare to see one now. If he were the size of my Lab,75lbs, only way to stop him would be to shoot him. Funny thing about him though is that he shares a bed with my dog. They are best buds.
I've seen a huge mountain lion in my AOR stalk cows at night and they didn't even know he was there. Yes, I was using a parful thermal sight. Big cats are scary as hell.
I agree, my black lab absolutely loves me, without question. She even gets jealous of my wife.
She also works with hand signals very well around the house and in the field.
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-2/p854428661-5.jpg
Damn Brother, that is a beautiful pup.
I've seen a huge mountain lion in my AOR stalk cows at night and they didn't even know he was there. Yes, I was using a parful thermal sight. Big cats are scary as hell.
My dad use to do wedding photography on the side years ago. He did the wedding of a man who's father got rich post WWII selling Jeeps in upstate SC. The father had a huge home in the Cashiers/Highlands area with a good bit of land as well. Anyway, he owned a pet cougar named Baby from the time it was born. He built this house so that the cat could live indoors with him and his wife, but also had a tunnel system aka cougar door for he cat to go outside on it's own into a large enclosed area. The cougar was fine around him and her, but did not really tolerate anyone else. It was unreal how much meat that cat put down every week.
I can't help but imagine how hilarious the security cam footage would be of some mountain methhead breaking into his home and not knowing what was stalking around inside. Like Buffalo Man V2.0
https://youtu.be/_dBeH_TZ90s
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