View Full Version : What pistol for a steady diet of +P+, ?
In my never ending quest for the perfect offensive/defensive pistol, I wonder !
With the exception of the Glock 17/34, what pistols can take a steady diet of
+P+ 9mm ammunition?
I find the Glock a efficient tool and nothing more, I don't like the grip angle and
hate the trigger.
I am looking for a pistol that is high capacity, can tolerate +P+, and has a better
trigger than the Glock.
I am thinking the earlier HK USP series holds the most promise, but I can't
afford to buy every 9mm out there.
Anybody have one that fulfills my needs without frame cracking, falling apart?
steady diet of +P+ 9mm ammunition?
Why do that? How much is a "steady diet" to you?
If you want +p+ instead of maxing a cartridge to past its design/safe levels why not buy a caliber that is already there.
Buy a 10 mm or .357 sig
For those who dont know the + means above the max design pressure.
+p+ means above the + above max.
Buy known good ammo and learn to hit what you shoot
Fyi. Central nervous aka head will kill far more likley than a chest or arm or leg shot.
A bullet/ load that meets fbi to the face will always work better than a +p+ to the leg
For example federal 9mm hst or 9mm corbon dpx or those in 45 acp
There is a reason frames crack from +p and or +p+
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In my never ending quest for the perfect offensive/defensive pistol, I wonder !
With the exception of the Glock 17/34, what pistols can take a steady diet of
+P+ 9mm ammunition?
I find the Glock a efficient tool and nothing more, I don't like the grip angle and
hate the trigger.
I am looking for a pistol that is high capacity, can tolerate +P+, and has a better
trigger than the Glock.
I am thinking the earlier HK USP series holds the most promise, but I can't
afford to buy every 9mm out there.
Anybody have one that fulfills my needs without frame cracking, falling apart?
What benefits are there to +p+ vs standard pressure 9mm in modern defensive ammo? That would seem to be the Q to start with no? Added costs, added recoil, added wear & tear on the gun, minimal (or even reduced...) improvements in terminal ballistics.
I know all of that, and at the present state of development there are a good half dozen very efficient
9mm cartridges that eclipse all but the best .40/.45 .
You can carry a butt load of them and they take up less room, recoil less.
Plus I can practice with normal loads.
I have a very generous supply of 100gr Hirtenberger FL Police and WW 127gr. +P+.
I like having the best available, but unlike the govt, I bought them myself.
I had a Sig 226 that was my go to for carrying in the woods when I was first getting into guns (didn't have any larger caliber pistol at the time) so I was looking for the most powerful ammo I could find.
I put about 1000 rounds of +P+ stuff through it over the course of about a year. It functioned fine long after I discontinued use of +P+ ammo and handled anything I fed it without issue for thousands of rounds with no visible signs of damage.
HK
But.... why do that? It will result in premature failure of the pistol, no matter what make and/or model.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Glock 17 and HK USP 9mm Full-size
I have shot hot loads out of my G17 and a SIG P226. I typically just carry a standard quality JHP loading now.
Agree with others that shot placement is more important than any wonder bullet.
The wear and tear is not worth it.
That said the dual-spring design in the USP full-size will take a lot hot rounds.
arbninftry
08-21-16, 21:28
Hands down the USP. It has a heavy slide (designed for the .40), and as mentioned earlier the dual recoil spring.
The down side, the trigger sucks. You have to put a match or LEM trigger in it to make it workable.
TacticalMark
08-21-16, 22:18
I have a very generous supply of 100gr Hirtenberger FL Police and WW 127gr. +P+.
I like having the best available, but unlike the govt, I bought them myself.
I don't think the above performs better then 124/147gr HST or GD's. I'd take the +P+ stuff you have and sell it at a gun show.
I would not mind the LEM at all.
Just for the record, I stipulated a pistol capable of digesting +P+ all day.
I did not say I was going to shoot up my supply of hot 9mm fodder.
It's too expensive to just piss away, but it will be my go to ammo.
Pistols were made to be used, would you buy a Mustang GT and never
go fast?
I am not concerned if they look used, they are supposed to be used.
I doubt most people here have ever seen the Hirtenberger FL Police TSP.
TacticalMark
08-21-16, 22:34
Isn't the Hirtenberger 100gr +P+ for SMG's? To the original question, buy a HK USP or Sig and good luck with your adventure.
I have a very generous supply of 100gr Hirtenberger FL Police and WW 127gr. +P+.
I like having the best available, but unlike the govt, I bought them myself.
That Hirtenberger isn't anything special. Shoot it up for practice and get something that was manufactured in the last decade at least. Or trade it out to someone who impresses easily and doesn't know any better.
RA9TA is okay. Modern, major-manufacture service grade pistols will shoot a lot of it. As with the Hirt though, don't get too impressed. It's a good load, but one of many. If you bought it retail, you probably paid too much.
You still have not quantified "steady diet", nor your more recent "all day." I suspect the quantity is too small to matter.
Favorite 9mm defensive loads from ~2008.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?7768-Favorite-9mm-defensive-loads
I settled on the Hirtenberger 100gr FL Police, truncated cone, semi jacketed soft tip that clocks 1400 fps, overpenetrates " that is why the FBI rejected it " expands to twice its diameter. I bought many cases from Kieslers Police Supply in the 80's, still have 7K.
Sorry to dissapoint you, but I hope you never have to rely on it. It was co-developed by Austrian police with Hirtenberger so that it doesn't expand in bad guys at all. I have the official specs lying in front of me and can scan them if you want- and can read German. All it does is to prevent ricochetts better than FMJ.
Hirtenberger 9mm Police Ammo from ~2010
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?70156-Hirtenberger-9mm-Police-Ammo
Thought I would share this with fellow board members, this is picture of Hirtenberger 100gr truncated cone soft tip FL bullet, it is a +P+ load that exits my Glock model 34 at 1,420 fps. it is very accurate and loud. This ammo was imported by a police supply company in Indiana when the FBI was testing 9mm ammo for service use. It failed the FBI test because of excessive penetration, but passed on expansion, average size in medium .479", passed the deflection test when fired through automobile glass on 30 degree angle. You don't see it around much anymore, but it is very effective. It is the current Austrian Federal Police 9mm service load. I guess if they shoot you over there, that is where they want you to stop.
Yes it did come from Kiesler's Police Supply, apparently they have changed their policy concerning FFL sales. I also understand they will not sell to civilian/FFL entities at all. I bought a lot of it many years ago and down to a couple of cases now. No, I am not interested in selling any, I tried some time ago and apparently it was too expensive, now I don't enough to sell any.
ColtSeavers
08-21-16, 23:13
I know of standard pressure
+P pressure
And specific type of weapon pressure (ruger or subgun only loads for example)
About any modern handgun can handle a steady diet of +P.
About any modern weapon cannot handle a steady diet of loads specifically made for a type of weapon other than them.
No idea how long your russian roulette luck will hold out while toying with the last sentence.
Hands down the USP. It has a heavy slide (designed for the .40), and as mentioned earlier the dual recoil spring.
The down side, the trigger sucks. You have to put a match or LEM trigger in it to make it workable.
It's true that most modern service pistols are built for .40 specifications to simplify design dimension, materials logistics and holster compatibility.
Though many manufacturers don't recommend using +P+ because it isn't really a standard.
USP but then you have to find the trigger you like
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If you want +p+ instead of maxing a cartridge to past its design/safe levels why not buy a caliber that is already there.
Buy a 10 mm or .357 sig
For those who dont know the + means above the max design pressure.
+p+ means above the + above max.
Buy known good ammo and learn to hit what you shoot
Fyi. Central nervous aka head will kill far more likley than a chest or arm or leg shot.
A bullet/ load that meets fbi to the face will always work better than a +p+ to the leg
For example federal 9mm hst or 9mm corbon dpx or those in 45 acp
There is a reason frames crack from +p and or +p+
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I agree with this.
If you want something above the standard 9mm load then buy a cartridge specifically design for that level. Shooting 9mm +P+ is like souping up a Honda Civic. If the idea is to go fast then you should start with something else.
I know all of that, and at the present state of development there are a good half dozen very efficient
9mm cartridges that eclipse all but the best .40/.45 .
You can carry a butt load of them and they take up less room, recoil less.
Plus I can practice with normal loads.
I have a very generous supply of 100gr Hirtenberger FL Police and WW 127gr. +P+.
I like having the best available, but unlike the govt, I bought them myself.
Sell for a profit, buy modern ammo.
Coal Dragger
08-22-16, 08:03
The SIG P226 X5 would also be a good candidate for this dubious goal. All steel frame, using dimensions originally specific to aluminum alloy so there is extra strength. Plus this pistol has a dual recoil spring/buffer similar to the HK USP which is also an excellent candidate.
If you don't have to have a semiautomatic pistol for this duty there are some revolvers that would be ideal for this. In fact far better suited to it than a semi-auto. A Ruger Super Blackhawk in .357 Magnum with a 9mm conversion cylinder for example. Maybe one of the new Korth Mongoose .357's with the 9mm cylinder if you've got $$$ to burn. Either of those handguns, plus a few other revolvers with conversion cylinders wouldn't even notice a hot 9mm round. I doubt very seriously that a 9mm case can hold enough powder to damage a conversion cylinder in a revolver made as tank like as those mentioned.
Gary1911A1
08-22-16, 13:13
I know you said "besides the Glock 17", but for the cost of the pistol and spare parts like the recoil spring unit you could buy two 17s' for what a HK USP would cost.
You didn't specify 9mm, but based on the guns you mentioned I conclude that is what you meant...
I was looking at the HK mk23 again (sold the one I had a long time ago) but that is geared up for .45 Super; what a beasty gun;
But, went ahead and purchased a USP tactical .45 last week. Shot it this weekend with the tirant.
The USP line seems so robust;
I would think about a USP 9mm tactical, if it in the budget; it pretty sure it comes with a match trigger
Sorry to dissapoint you, but I hope you never have to rely on it. It was co-developed by Austrian police with Hirtenberger so that it doesn't expand in bad guys at all. I have the official specs lying in front of me and can scan them if you want- and can read German. All it does is to prevent ricochetts better than FMJ.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A soft tip that does not expand is counter intuitive.
I have shot several deer in 100llb + weight and everyone exited T&T w/5/8" permanent wound channel.
Pamphlets and spec sheets don't impress me much, 14" of transverse tissue destruction through shoulder
area exiting past last rib from a .38 cal. pistol does.
You act like i'm trying to sell you some but I'm not, I am genuinely impressed with this cartridge and I
imagine it would penetrate all but the best vests.
Defaultmp3
08-22-16, 16:25
I imagine it would penetrate all but the best vests.I highly doubt that, especially if it's a soft point bullet.
Whatever
Can you name another standard duty caliber in soft point or JHP that will "penetrate all but the best vests?" out of a pistol? If not, why would that one? You're not making a lot of sense in this thread.
In all fairness, about 12 odd years ago Second Chance (or Point Blank, It's been a while but at the time they were the soft armor guys) let some bumsteers out the pasture. They were IIA and a .38 +P would tear through it. Those vests got recalled (I had one) but enough velocity would eat through them.
Today, no commercial round is going through the latest IIIA soft armor. Unless you use a rifle round or some weird Eastern European steel core 9mm AP, it isn't happening.
In all fairness, about 12 odd years ago Second Chance (or Point Blank, It's been a while but at the time they were the soft armor guys) let some bumsteers out the pasture. They were IIA and a .38 +P would tear through it. Those vests got recalled (I had one) but enough velocity would eat through them.
Today, no commercial round is going through the latest IIIA soft armor. Unless you use a rifle round or some weird Eastern European steel core 9mm AP, it isn't happening.
Understood, but were discussing latest bullet tech and latest vests, vs outdated bullet and vests...
For stateside CCW or LE duty use I see no compelling need to base a weapon choice around a specialty round meant for a likely low probability specific situation.
Dennis.
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Understood, but were discussing latest bullet tech and latest vests, vs outdated bullet and vests...
I see. Actually new soft armor is pretty good and usually has a pocket for a trauma plate.
I really wouldn't gamble the farm on a pistol caliber. If it is that bad, just get a rifle or start aiming for faces, groins, and femorals.
Per +p+ I don't know of any manufacturer who is going to say "SURE, blast hot loads to your little hearts content all day" Not even Glock or HK do that. I have some 9BPLE rounds that I shoot for the heck of it once and again because they are kinda old, I personally haven't made it through a whole box at a range day simply because it just isn't fun to shoot. It is snappy like a .40. I don't even shoot my .357 Sig for fun too much. And some bullets get some cocky velocity.
So...I dunno where this is ultimately going.
teutonicpolymer
08-22-16, 19:08
In my never ending quest for the perfect offensive/defensive pistol, I wonder !
With the exception of the Glock 17/34, what pistols can take a steady diet of
+P+ 9mm ammunition?
I find the Glock a efficient tool and nothing more, I don't like the grip angle and
hate the trigger.
I am looking for a pistol that is high capacity, can tolerate +P+, and has a better
trigger than the Glock.
I am thinking the earlier HK USP series holds the most promise, but I can't
afford to buy every 9mm out there.
Anybody have one that fulfills my needs without frame cracking, falling apart?
My friend, excluding the Glock 34 because you want a better trigger then looking at a USP doesn't make a lot of sense... Maybe the USP match trigger beats the standard Glock setup or even the minus connector but a USP with match trigger is almost double the cost of a Glock. Then there is also the fact that there are a ton of options for Glock triggers.
That being said, if I were to get a 9mm USP it would be a 9mm expert while they are still around. I have issues with the USP like the mag release being bad (too small and it prohibits a high middle finger grip) as the main problem but I still think it is a cool gun.
If velocity is what you seek then why not just go to .357 Sig?
teutonicpolymer
08-22-16, 19:10
The SIG P226 X5 would also be a good candidate for this dubious goal. All steel frame, using dimensions originally specific to aluminum alloy so there is extra strength. Plus this pistol has a dual recoil spring/buffer similar to the HK USP which is also an excellent candidate.
If you don't have to have a semiautomatic pistol for this duty there are some revolvers that would be ideal for this. In fact far better suited to it than a semi-auto. A Ruger Super Blackhawk in .357 Magnum with a 9mm conversion cylinder for example. Maybe one of the new Korth Mongoose .357's with the 9mm cylinder if you've got $$$ to burn. Either of those handguns, plus a few other revolvers with conversion cylinders wouldn't even notice a hot 9mm round. I doubt very seriously that a 9mm case can hold enough powder to damage a conversion cylinder in a revolver made as tank like as those mentioned.
If he can't afford multiple 9mms how can he afford a Korth lol
Nevermind , thanks on HK info though
Just shoot normal defensive ammo and buy the pistol you shoot best and controls are laid out to your liking. I can't think of many situations where I find myself wanting +P+ ammo.
ETA: Triggers are subjective, I'd take any HK trigger variant over any gLoCk trigger.
Defaultmp3
08-22-16, 20:18
I have issues with the USP like the mag release being bad (too small and it prohibits a high middle finger grip) as the main problem but I still think it is a cool gun.On the size front, installing the HK45C magazine release has been a popular workaround.
If velocity is what you seek then why not just go to .357 Sig?Or just go to an FN 5.7×28mm. IIRC, both the Five-seveN and the PS90 are excellent guns, with good accuracy, low recoil, nice trigger characteristics, and excellent reliability. Extremely poor wound ballistics, but hey, if you want to punch through armor without using a rifle...
A soft tip that does not expand is counter intuitive.
I have shot several deer in 100llb + weight and everyone exited T&T w/5/8" permanent wound channel.
Pamphlets and spec sheets don't impress me much, 14" of transverse tissue destruction through shoulder
area exiting past last rib from a .38 cal. pistol does.
You act like i'm trying to sell you some but I'm not, I am genuinely impressed with this cartridge and I
imagine it would penetrate all but the best vests.
Killed a deer, therefore it should go through "all but the best vests"
Solid logic backed by pure science.
teutonicpolymer
08-22-16, 22:53
On the size front, installing the HK45C magazine release has been a popular workaround.
Or just go to an FN 5.7×28mm. IIRC, both the Five-seveN and the PS90 are excellent guns, with good accuracy, low recoil, nice trigger characteristics, and excellent reliability. Extremely poor wound ballistics, but hey, if you want to punch through armor without using a rifle...
Hk45c mag release + all polymer USP 9mm magazines= bad news as the metal mag catch eats the magazine notch. Same thing happens with Glocks with aftermarket metal mag releases.
wildcard600
08-22-16, 22:53
Seems like I stumbled into a Donnyhan or Stengun thread.....
:O
Any of the brand-name full or compact size 9mm pistols should be fine.
I don't think the above performs better then 124/147gr HST or GD's. I'd take the +P+ stuff you have and sell it at a gun show.
I agree.
I had several hundred rounds of GD 115 gr +p+ and I sold it to a buddy.
Standard pressure 9X19 will do what pistols are supposed to do as far as one can place bullets using pistol sights.
I agree.
I had several hundred rounds of GD 115 gr +p+ and I sold it to a buddy.
Standard pressure 9X19 will do what pistols are supposed to do as far as one can place bullets using pistol sights.
More than that you should be looking for your rifle in the trunk
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I see. Actually new soft armor is pretty good and usually has a pocket for a trauma plate.
I really wouldn't gamble the farm on a pistol caliber. If it is that bad, just get a rifle or start aiming for faces, groins, and femorals.
Per +p+ I don't know of any manufacturer who is going to say "SURE, blast hot loads to your little hearts content all day" Not even Glock or HK do that. I have some 9BPLE rounds that I shoot for the heck of it once and again because they are kinda old, I personally haven't made it through a whole box at a range day simply because it just isn't fun to shoot. It is snappy like a .40. I don't even shoot my .357 Sig for fun too much. And some bullets get some cocky velocity.
So...I dunno where this is ultimately going.
You'll have to ask the OP that one, but from my POV, seems to be going nowhere in a hurry. No one but OP seems to see any value in finding a gun to run that ammo on a "steady diet."
I have a buddy who purchased cases and cases of Black Talon back in the day before it was taken off cuz it was cop killer bullet able to penetrate an inch of armor plate and ten vests, and no amount of discussion that newer ammo from same manufacturer is as good or better, and one just re branded minus cool black coating.
Don't understand why someone would want to degrade the reliability of a modern semi-auto by using more powerful than recommended ammo under the reasoning that the more powerful ammo is better when every controlled test has said that it isn't.
But, for grins: USP9 should meet your requirements.
Our P226s held up remarkably well to extensive shooting of Win 127g +P+ and Frangible +P rounds. The .357 Sig P226s also held up well.
Is the .40 dead was interesting, but this ? Hmmmm
Is the .40 dead was interesting, but this ? Hmmmm
I'm thinking the OP is already checked out of this thread.
Is there any problem with occasionally shooting +p+ in a glock 19 or 34? I have gold dot 115 +p+ and 9bple that I bought when it was all I could find- if it is accurate and I don't mind the recoil is the only reason not to use it the fact that there are better options? Like gd 124 +p for instance?
How's about an oldy. S&W 5906!
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No I have not checked out, I am just bewildered about how fast this went off the rails.
In the initial post queried about what pistol besides my Glock 17/34 would withstand a steady diet of +P+
ammunition.
Instead of answers I got questions like "why do that " , " what is a steady diet ", suggestions that if I want
to go fast, buy 10mm/357Sig, sell the old ammo, buy new , that HST & GD are superior, steady diet, all day,
ect, ect.
Now I am probably not going to win any friends with this, but instead of answering the question this got driven
off the tracks by people acting like the media?
Asking questions not germane to post, postulating scenarios then expressing doubt about where topic is going ?
Christ I don't know where it's going, you guys are driving the narrative.
If you read the entire post from start till now, and the additions contributed by readers you can see that I mentioned
I bought many cases the Hirtenberger, many is 10 cases, cases are 2K rounds, I sold lots of ammo @ gunshows
in Az over the years, lots of Cor-Bon and lots of high performance ammo.
I stated that at one time I had 7K left, now I have 5K !
I shot all that ammo, a steady diet by any calculation, did it wear out pistols?
Yeah !, why do that ? because I can !
I have seen this particular behavior all over the internet, contributing to posts that don't address the point.
Hell, I do it myself, I don't think any of it is malicious , your point of view and experiences drive your questions.
I have even seen the OP of some posts berate those steering topic away, and so have you.
I am a guest here and believe I am too polite to indulge in such behavior, hence this explanation of my post.
I was just looking for feedback from those who have wondered the same, if I have offended anyone here
I apologize, that was not my intent, I have lived long enough to accumilate plenty of enemies.
I don't need any more.
How's about an oldy. S&W 5906!
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I thought about that suggestion, but he wanted a pistol that would hold up to a steady diet of +P+ AND has a better trigger than a Glock. I've fired a lot of ammunition through the second and third generation S&W pistols and I don't consider the triggers to be better than a Glock trigger.
Lowprone,
USP would be the only other pistol but....
Have you thought about getting an UZI carbine? They are rated for SMG ammo which can be pretty hot.
Just a thought.
threefeathers
08-23-16, 17:01
I carry three handguns that are stoked with Win Ranger 127 +P+. My Glock 17, SW CORE, HKP2K. I have a reload recipe that exactly copies the POI of the carry load. These three will fire it all day long.
I thought about that suggestion, but he wanted a pistol that would hold up to a steady diet of +P+ AND has a better trigger than a Glock. I've fired a lot of ammunition through the second and third generation S&W pistols and I don't consider the triggers to be better than a Glock trigger.
Yea but triggers are subjective. 3rd gens are about the only DA triggers I like Out of all the DA guns.
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No I have not checked out, I am just bewildered about how fast this went off the rails.
In the initial post queried about what pistol besides my Glock 17/34 would withstand a steady diet of +P+
ammunition.
Instead of answers I got questions like "why do that " , " what is a steady diet ", suggestions that if I want
to go fast, buy 10mm/357Sig, sell the old ammo, buy new , that HST & GD are superior, steady diet, all day,
ect, ect.
Now I am probably not going to win any friends with this, but instead of answering the question this got driven
off the tracks by people acting like the media?
Asking questions not germane to post, postulating scenarios then expressing doubt about where topic is going ?
Christ I don't know where it's going, you guys are driving the narrative.
If you read the entire post from start till now, and the additions contributed by readers you can see that I mentioned
I bought many cases the Hirtenberger, many is 10 cases, cases are 2K rounds, I sold lots of ammo @ gunshows
in Az over the years, lots of Cor-Bon and lots of high performance ammo.
I stated that at one time I had 7K left, now I have 5K !
I shot all that ammo, a steady diet by any calculation, did it wear out pistols?
Yeah !, why do that ? because I can !
I have seen this particular behavior all over the internet, contributing to posts that don't address the point.
Hell, I do it myself, I don't think any of it is malicious , your point of view and experiences drive your questions.
I have even seen the OP of some posts berate those steering topic away, and so have you.
I am a guest here and believe I am too polite to indulge in such behavior, hence this explanation of my post.
I was just looking for feedback from those who have wondered the same, if I have offended anyone here
I apologize, that was not my intent, I have lived long enough to accumilate plenty of enemies.
I don't need any more.
When you post a question, you have to be willing to accept that your premise may not be shared by everyone or even anyone. Getting thin skinned about the response isn't conducive to your learning. There are large percentage of folks in this thread who don't understand why you are doing this is pretty much a clue that could save you money and wear on your pistol.
Don't be offended by the response, but be willing to consider the alternatives presented, all of them. I frankly don't care what you do with your money / ammo, but you asked so I provided my input. It was free and you can use it or choose to ignore, again, I frankly don't care.
I'm not going to get hostile or offended if you choose to ignore my opinion. Hell, I might just be the craziest person in the thread.
ETA: In fact, I can think of darn few instances where anything is universally agreed. There is always one in the crowd, even when the Clinton's are the topic. Go figure.
Yea but triggers are subjective. 3rd gens are about the only DA triggers I like Out of all the DA guns.
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I competed with the Gen 3 S&W 9mm's. Box stock, the triggers left a lot to be desired. After 40 minutes of stoning the trigger assembly, triggers were tolerable.
I competed with the Gen 3 S&W 9mm's. Box stock, the triggers left a lot to be desired. After 40 minutes of stoning the trigger assembly, triggers were tolerable.
I'm not arguing. Trigger feel is different for everyone. Like I said...I'm not a fan of DA/SA but as far as they go I find them to be better than Sig, Beretta, CZ, most HK, ...etc...etc... To me they are a bit on the heavy side but short and smooth. Just how they feel to me. I don't own any but if I did ....
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In all fairness, about 12 odd years ago Second Chance (or Point Blank, It's been a while but at the time they were the soft armor guys) let some bumsteers out the pasture. They were IIA and a .38 +P would tear through it. Those vests got recalled (I had one) but enough velocity would eat through them.
Today, no commercial round is going through the latest IIIA soft armor. Unless you use a rifle round or some weird Eastern European steel core 9mm AP, it isn't happening.
Dang you are good - 12 years ago. Don't hold me to the spelling but it was a shipment of tarwin bought from a supplier who had supposedly checked it. Several penetrations and one fatality:
On March 27, 2005, a sergeant with the Panama City Beach Florida Police Department was killed when defective material allowed two 9mm pistol rounds to penetrate the officer’s vest, striking him in the chest.
Reminder, NIJ specs are based on bullet type, weight, and velocity:
NIJ LEVEL IIA: (Lower Velocity 9mm, .40 S&W). This armor protects against 9mm Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 332 m/s (1090 ft/s) or less and .40 S&W caliber Full Metal Jacketed (FMJ) bullets with nominal masses of 11.7 g (180 gr) impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Level I threats. Level IIA body armor is well suited for full-time use by police departments, particularly those seeking protection for their officers from lower velocity .40 S&W and 9mm ammunition.
NIJ LEVEL II: (Higher Velocity 9mm, .357 Magnum). This armor protects against .357 Magnum jacketed soft-point bullets with nominal masses of 10.2 g (158 gr.) impacting at a velocity of 425 m/s (1,395 ft/s) or less and against 9mm full-jacketed bullets with nominal velocities of 358 m/s (1,175 ft/s). It also protects against most other factory loads in caliber .357 Magnum and 9mm as well as the Level I and IIA threats. Level II body armor is heavier and more bulky than either Levels I or IIA. It is worn full time by officers seeking protection against higher velocity .357 Magnum and 9mm ammunition.
NIJ LEVEL IIIA: (.44 Magnum; Submachine Gun 9mm). This armor protects against .44 Magnum, Semi Jacketed Hollow Point (SJHP) bullets with nominal masses of 15.55 g (240 gr.) impacting at a velocity of 426 m/s (1,400 ft/s) or less and against 9mm full-metal jacketed bullets with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr.) impacting at a velocity of 426 m/s (1,400 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against most handgun threats as well as the Level I, IIA, and II threats. Level IIIA body armor provides the highest level of protection currently available from concealable body armor and is generally suitable for routine wear in many situations. However, departments located in hot, humid climates may need to evaluate the use of Level IIIA armor carefully.
NIJ LEVEL III: (High-powered rifle). This armor, normally of hard or semirigid construction, protects against 7.62mm full-metal jacketed bullets (US military designation M80) with nominal masses of 9.7 g (150 gr.) impacting at a velocity of 838 m/s (2,750 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against threats such as 223 Remington (5.56mm FMJ), 30 Carbine FMJ, and 12-gauge rifled slug, as well as Level I through IIIA threats. Level III body armor is clearly intended only for tactical situations when the threat warrants such protection, such as barricade confrontations involving sporting rifles.
NIJ LEVEL IV: (Armor-piercing rifle). This armor protects against .30–06 caliber armor-piercing bullets (US military designation APM2) with nominal masses of 10.8 g (166 gr.) impacting at a velocity of 868 m/s (2,850 ft/s) or less. It also provides at least single-hit protection against the Level I through III threats.
Level IV body armor provides the highest level of protection currently available. Because this armor is intended to resist “armor piercing” bullets, it often uses ceramic materials. Such materials are brittle in nature and may provide only single-shot protection since the ceramic tends to break up when struck. As with Level III armor, Level IV armor is clearly intended only for tactical situations when the threat warrants such protection.
OP - Someone mention a 5906 Smith. That wasn't my first thought. My first thought was, dang if it had good sights and decock/safety levers that guy needs a Ruger P85. BEEEEEFY.
You would destroy a 59/69 series SW. I broke 5, 3 69 series and 2 5906's With only 9mm NATO ball.
You would destroy a 59/69 series SW. I broke 5, 3 69 series and 2 5906's With only 9mm NATO ball.
06 or 04? The 6 ending were all stainless.the 4 were alloy.
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personally i will say go for an FN 5.7, great fire power for defensive weapon, the grip, balance, smoothness and reaction are impeccable.
You would destroy a 59/69 series SW. I broke 5, 3 69 series and 2 5906's With only 9mm NATO ball.
I wrecked two 5904s and one 6904 shooting +P+. Shooting standard velocity reloads, the longest any of my third generation S&W pistols lasted was 22,000 rounds.
If I were to shoot a lot of +P+ nowadays, I would take a look at a CZ75.
CZ75 will not have much love for +P+. Same problem as with .40SW - they do not work to good with broken slide stop pin. If CZ then P07/P09 will be much better as polymer frame ads some cushion to this pin and distributes stress into frame.
Anyway for long run HK USP is probably unbeatable as ultimate +P+ machine with it's over-engineered 3-stage floating recoil assembly, but any modern, quality, polymer framed handgun (preferably with fully supported chamber and ideally with cold hammer forged barrel) can easily take +P+ for long time, as long as recoil spring is kept in good shape.
personally i will say go for an FN 5.7, great fire power for defensive weapon, the grip, balance, smoothness and reaction are impeccable.
Does the 5.7 shoot +P+ 9mm? No. Why is this relevant to the OPs request for info? He's pretty clear on what he wants to shoot ammo wise.
I can't speak about any other pistols, but I can vouch for Glocks. I have had several G.19 go over 80,000 rds the bulk of which was 124 +p gold dot. One G19 went thru 80,000 rds of +p Gold Dot plus about 7 or 8000 rds of Rem 115 +p+ jhp and the rest mixed ball both standard and Nato totaling the round count on that gun to 130,000 rds. So the whole point to this is they can last for quite awhile, you need to stay up on your recoil spring replacement and they will last a lot longer ( I didn't and had 3 frames go down on me). Hope this helps.
personally i will say go for an FN 5.7, great fire power for defensive weapon, the grip, balance, smoothness and reaction are impeccable.
Um, what? Just no. Relevant to the OP how again?
5906 and 6906, one 6946(DAO) It was more than the frames cracking, trigger bars, sear springs, ejectors, decocking barrels cracking, ambi levers falling off. Trigger play spring breaking, that being hardly an issue and wonder why they ever had it there anyhow.
I learned replace the stainless decocking barrel with a blue steel one, single sided and to avoid the hammer bite, a 69 series hammer on the 59.
I really don't see the point of a steady diet of +p+ unless you are getting it for free and if you are, then a new pistol when one breaks isn't a big deal. Shoot enough to verify function then shoot ball and shoot your load out once a year or so depending on carry environment.
If you're not worried about wearing out a pistol (sensible shooters know it's part of the gig) then it doesn't matter which pistol you get, beyond making sure it won't lead to a catastrophic unsafe failure.
I don't know if a PPQ will hold up to +P+ ammo better than another quality handgun, but it does have a good trigger and is accurate
Hands down the USP. It has a heavy slide (designed for the .40), and as mentioned earlier the dual recoil spring.
I agree with this. USP 9mm is very overbuilt.
To the OP, you are getting non relevant replies because your question isn't really practical. Any modern quality pistol will shoot +p+ just fine.
A pistol is a mechanical object that experiences wear. Every time you shoot it wear occurs. This is excellerated with higher pressure ammo regardless of the manufacturer. This can be mitigated by using a more powerful recoil spring.
Every pistol has a finite life. But for modern pistols it is largely irrelevant because you will pay 5 times or more the cost of the pistol in ammo before it wears out. Very few people actually wear out a pistol.
5k is not a lot of rounds for a pistol. Shoot without worry.
If it is really a concern buy a 9mm 1911 or a steel framed sig 226 or 229.
CZ75 will not have much love for +P+. Same problem as with .40SW - they do not work to good with broken slide stop pin. If CZ then P07/P09 will be much better as polymer frame ads some cushion to this pin and distributes stress into frame...............
I have limited experience with the CZ75. It appeared to be sturdier than the S&W 5904. Thanks for the heads up.
5906s really weren't good pistols.
If you really like 3rd gen Smith DAO triggers then you must've spent your youth turning the Wheel of Pain only to matriculate to some hardcore Blacksmithing asa teen and have huge mitts that can crush a brick.
I have spindly girl hands, I reckon, and did not enjoy the Smith trigger at all.
I learned to live with these triggers, could manipulate them but never thought that they were good. Does it count that in my old age that I can still grip a 1911 or even BHP with my right hand--fingers over slide and thumb behind grip--and chamber a round with one hand? When I would demonstrate this trick to the gun shop crowd, most would say so what? In my youth I unloaded countless box cars of 100 pound sacks and have some of the muscle left. I ruined my right shoulder by doing tricks with the sacks held over my head with one hand. My lower back is held together by pins, plates, and screws. I had fun. Life is good. God is great. Ditto if I wake up tomorrow.
After reading the entire thread, I realize that I responded with a non relevant reply. To give a relevant one I will say that the Browning Hi-Power might be adversely affected by +p+ ammo. At least one famous custom pistol smithing outfit warns against using even + in the BHP. BHP factory hammer springs are rated at 37 lbs(from memory), and some say that this heavy weight's purpose is to reduce slide velocity. I asked a factory tech a question about why the heavy hammer spring. He said he had no idea.
Talked with a good friend in Mesa, Az. who said he had read the post and understood what I was asking.
We talked about HK triggers ect and then he suggested I just get a 1911 pattern 9mm buy a bunch of
recoil, mainspring, firing pin springs like you would for a 45 super or like the 38 super crowd did long ago.
That resonated with me and snapped me out of my tunnel vision that kept me fixated on polymer striker
fired pistols.
I will not batter my High Powers up because the only ones I think might be marginally ok are the investment
cast MK 111 pistols that were built for the 40 S&W w/heavier slide and make a fairly strong 9mm.
I will probably get a new Colt 9mm because the heavy slide and appropriate springs will change the dwell
time and tame the recoil.
There seems to be a scarcity of 1911 high cap 9mm's but I will have fun finding the appropriate vehicle to
change most of those Hirtenbergers into once fired brass.
There may be others, but to my knowledge, the HK USP 9 is the only pistol who's manual specifically mentions it is rated for +P+.
I wrecked two 5904s and one 6904 shooting +P+. Shooting standard velocity reloads, the longest any of my third generation S&W pistols lasted was 22,000 rounds.
If I were to shoot a lot of +P+ nowadays, I would take a look at a CZ75.
All of our original Sim Guns were 3904's with cracked frames, they had not shot anything but standard velocity - actually Blazer and Silvertip.
Lowprone, from my experience with steel 1911 9mm's, you can fire l.e. +p+ ammo and not ruin your pistol. My opinion is that you don't need super recoil springs and will do well with the original but remember to change it every 2000 rds. But, to experiment do this. From Wollf springs buy a calibration pack with different weights. Next, determine how far your 1911 throws regular pressure empties with standard ammo. Replace the original spring with heavier ones while you fire your selected +p+ ammo. Finally select a spring that has a similar ejection pattern as does the original spring with regular ammo.
The 38 Super competition guys were fooling around with dangerously(stupid to me)high pressures and compensated pistols. There is no need to go there. Also, they had experts putting them together, and these competitors usually used one pistol with a spare to back them up, and at the same time, one was in the shop.
I would not fire the Hirtenberger ammo in any 9mm handgun that I valued unless it was a Ruger single action with a 9mm conversion cylinder. I have a K frame Smith in 9mm, and I won't fire the Hirtenberger stuff in it.
As a serious reloader for 46 years, I will tell you that high pressure does not always produce correspondingly high velocity. Graphing pressure and velocity does not show a linear relationship. Said another way, you can blow up your pistol and not achieve high velocity.
Another concern for hot 9mm or .38 Super ammo in the 1911 is the extent of unsupported area in the case head--or how far does the case protrude from the chamber. Hot ammo beyond factory +p+ will likely blow out the unprotected case head so we have another reason to avoid Hirtenberger and similar choices.
Thanks for the heads up.
No problem. With regular 9mm, even 9mm NATO it rarely is a problem. But those that use CZ75 in .40SW or shoot 9mm loaded for Major Power Factor for IPSC always have few spare slide stops with pin on hand. Other solution used is to ditch slide stop and install pin that can freely rotate inside frame - this way stress is distributed more evenly into pin and it does not crack so easy.
5906s really weren't good pistols.
If you really like 3rd gen Smith DAO triggers then you must've spent your youth turning the Wheel of Pain only to matriculate to some hardcore Blacksmithing asa teen and have huge mitts that can crush a brick.
I have spindly girl hands, I reckon, and did not enjoy the Smith trigger at all.
Lol. I don't have a lot of first hand experience with them. I've owned a few but never used them like I do Glocks. By the time I was old enough to buy guns the 3rd gens were being phased out. I bought one, then another, because at the time they were cheap(er) as more and more departments went away from them to Glocks, Sigs and HKs. My first was like new, without the mag safety. Came with 4 mags for $250. At one time I conceal carried a 5906 and later a 4566. This was before I got into Glocks. Personally I never had an issue with them and from all my research they seemed to be the "Glock" of their time. Eventually as I got more and more into guns I sold them off one by one.
As for the trigger.....I dunno. From everything I've read on different DA guns they all seem to be around the 10# DA pull but for whatever reason the 3rd gens always felt smoother and lighter especially when combined with the thicker rubber Hogue palm swell grips. I have avg hands but ET like fingers. I like 2x4 grips
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sundance435
08-25-16, 10:34
5906s really weren't good pistols.
This is objectively not true. On a personal note, if you can find a 5906, I can anecdotally verify having seen 20+ 5906's, over time, chew through more +p and +p+ than most shooters will fire in a lifetime. I wonder if one of the newer Zastava 9mm Tok's would handle it? It's a design based around a load similar in pressure to a 9mm +p, though +p+ pressures are subjective to manufacturers. I have no idea what the quality of the steel is like or whether the parts are mostly cast, stamped, forged, or MIM.
sundance435
08-25-16, 10:37
All of our original Sim Guns were 3904's with cracked frames, they had not shot anything but standard velocity - actually Blazer and Silvertip.
3904, 5904, 6904 = aluminum frames. 5906 = stainless frame. Apples and oranges.
3904, 5904, 6904 = aluminum frames. 5906 = stainless frame. Apples and oranges.
Yes I know. The post I quoted referenced 04's not 06's. Point being, the aluminum frames cracked with Blazer 9mm and Silvertips, not +P stuff.
MountainRaven
08-25-16, 21:15
5906s really weren't good pistols.
If you really like 3rd gen Smith DAO triggers then you must've spent your youth turning the Wheel of Pain only to matriculate to some hardcore Blacksmithing asa teen and have huge mitts that can crush a brick.
I have spindly girl hands, I reckon, and did not enjoy the Smith trigger at all.
I have pianist's hands, ran a 4506 last year, and had nary a problem with it. That "nary a problem" extends to running the DA/SA trigger. It wasn't as nice as my P226R Legion or my Beretta (with Wilson Combat steel trigger and 16lb. mainspring), but it was pretty far from horrible.
Of course, most of my time spent on DA/SA trigger has been on H&Ks. So I suppose there might be some Wheel of Pain in there.
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