View Full Version : Geissele Super Precision vs. NF Unimount...torque-less RTZ T&E, live fire
Today I tested my Geissele and Nightforce "unimounts". I have two 1-4 NXS FC-2 reticle scopes, each mounted in the respective mounts.
I first tightened the Geissele to 65 inch-lb, and fired 6 shots---1 off target, and 5 in a group.
I then completely loosened the mount, and then tightened it with just my fingers, using my T-shirt to help me better grip the nut. I repeated the 6 shots as above.
I then did this for the Nightforce mounted Nightforce.
I used a front sand-bag, and sat at a bench. The weapon is a 16.1" CHF/CL barreled (factory) DDM4 with DD LITE rail, and Surefire 556-212 muzzle device. A Surefire 556-212 suppressor was installed for this test. Ammunition used was 5.56 "Browntip" as factory loaded for SOCOM (not a clone or handload. My rifle REALLY likes this stuff, along with 75gr Gold Dot, which I was out of.).
Below are the results of my testing. I aimed at the "bullseye" for each group, and did not compensate in any way for rounds impacting off-zero. I used 5-shot groups because if that is statistically insignificant to detect shift, then the shift was insignificant to anything you are going to shoot at within the effective range of the 5.56 caliber, in my OPINION.
http://i66.tinypic.com/nbt44o.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/2my40wk.jpg
http://i65.tinypic.com/2nbgbk1.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/2ajxlom.jpg
Good test....and great post. Love seeing hard use kit in head to head comparisons.
Maybe next time larger sample sizes or multiple 5 rd groups, but that's a small critique overall.
RobertTheTexan
08-24-16, 14:28
Good test....and great post. Love seeing hard use kit in head to head comparisons.
Maybe next time larger sample sizes or multiple 5 rd groups, but that's a small critique overall.
Agree 110%. Great seeing this kind of data on kit that you could easily go one way or the other on. They price about the same, so any intel that can help make better informed decision is is a good thing and appreciated.
SomeOtherGuy
08-24-16, 15:45
In just looking at the photos I can't see any apparent shift with either one. Is that your conclusion?
Ideally, someone could use the "On Target" software to measure both group size and distance from the aiming point, to have a quantified amount of shift for each one.
Group size
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982081/mount%201-1_zpsrfmb7ux3.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982081/mount%201-1_zpsrfmb7ux3.jpg.html)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982081/mount%202-1_zpsyn8ql7td.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982081/mount%202-1_zpsyn8ql7td.jpg.html)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982081/mount3-3_zpsludgqk7f.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982081/mount3-3_zpsludgqk7f.jpg.html)
had to zoom in this last one to get the group text in frame
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982081/mount%204-4_zpspfwadcvm.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982081/mount%204-4_zpspfwadcvm.jpg.html)
Shift in targeted aimpoint
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982083/group%20s1_zpsipv6cuwx.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982083/group%20s1_zpsipv6cuwx.jpg.html)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982084/group%20s2_zpsox6r3jmd.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982084/group%20s2_zpsox6r3jmd.jpg.html)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982085/group%20s3_zps5yncgaod.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982085/group%20s3_zps5yncgaod.jpg.html)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982086/group%20s41_zpsd8agh53k.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982086/group%20s41_zpsd8agh53k.jpg.html)
how much do the two mounts weight?
Nightforce A192 weights 5.5 oz. It is the lightest battle tested mount I am aware of. Pretty sure Geissle weights more.
http://i.imgur.com/gIBgUhx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zZ97E59.jpg
RobertTheTexan
08-24-16, 18:10
In just looking at the photos I can't see any apparent shift with either one. Is that your conclusion?
Ideally, someone could use the "On Target" software to measure both group size and distance from the aiming point, to have a quantified amount of shift for each one.
I'm impressed with tools available to shooters today. I just downloaded an app by JBM and noticed they even have apps that interface with some Kestrels. Not mine (a 2500) but still pretty cool. That's said if I based a decision off this data alone (which I wouldn't) it seems to me the Geissele was just slightly better performing than the Nightforce, but this is in a realm I am the least of many, and so I could be mistaken.
Coal Dragger
08-24-16, 19:15
I have noticed that my Nightforce Uni-Mount is not torque sensitive when I use a wrench, never thought to test it only finger tight. Impressive results for both. Frankly just as good or better than some QD mounts at RTZ with only finger tight nuts.
Could someone explain to me the real world utility of having a mount which has RTZ with finger tight nuts? Something besides the engineering aspect of having an inherently good mount design-which I understand is desirable, but when would anyone ever shoot like that? Also, can the mount slamming back and forth cause damage to the rail?
I'd like to see a test designed to reflect not having a torque wrench in the field, but instead a small wrench or pliers. A test where one nut is at 25 inch pounds and the other at 50, and vice versa. And one at 60 and the other at 80, you get the idea.
That being said, I like my NF Unimount. I've installed it once, added nail polish witness marks, and am not planning on touching it...unless I win the lottery and get a thermal.
Thank-you TRIDENT82!
-My Geissele mount weighs 7.2oz.
-I did not weigh the NF, but 5.3-5.6oz is a very likely margin that it lives in.
-I chose 5-shot groups because we are talking about attaching something with our fingers, in the field. If we cannot see or quantify a statistical deviation based on such crude and poor practices, then in my mind, the mount has more than served its purpose and the spirit in which it was designed: for someone far from home in a terrible place, with a leatherman or maybe even just a piece of thin scrap-metal or a coin, to be able to attach it to the rifle and be confident in putting a bullet COM out to the effective range of his MK12 or whatever. Not to win a benchrest trophy.
Could someone explain to me the real world utility of having a mount which has RTZ with finger tight nuts? Something besides the engineering aspect of having an inherently good mount design-which I understand is desirable, but when would anyone ever shoot like that? Also, can the mount slamming back and forth cause damage to the rail?
I'd like to see a test designed to reflect not having a torque wrench in the field, but instead a small wrench or pliers. A test where one nut is at 25 inch pounds and the other at 50, and vice versa. And one at 60 and the other at 80, you get the idea.
That being said, I like my NF Unimount. I've installed it once, added nail polish witness marks, and am not planning on touching it...unless I win the lottery and get a thermal.
I considered doing this, but Geissele was kind enough to have already performed said test. It waggles all over the place within a several MOA area when 1 nut is tighter than the other. However, it DOES stand to reason that the end-user will torque 1 nut more or less as tight as the other, even without a calibrated tool.
Finger-tight is simply a worst-case scenario, and any leatherman or even 2 dimes (I can get 5 in-lb easily using 2 dimes in the slot) will allow even more torque.
When I detached the mounts, the nuts "popped" loose (indicating that they had not rattled loose in 6 shots) on both mounts. The mount was not loose on the rail. Neither mount showed any sort of damage, nor did the rail. Not even "abnormal anodizing polishing" of surfaces that shouldn't see it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3o2QKoOpjk
*Finger-tight looks to RTZ to well within the capability of all but the very most precise of platforms...note, the video is at 145 yards.
*Applying torque to 1 nut only, he achieved a shift of about 1 MOA (accounting for 145y target distance).
I considered doing this, but Geissele was kind enough to have already performed said test. It waggles all over the place within a several MOA area when 1 nut is tighter than the other. However, it DOES stand to reason that the end-user will torque 1 nut more or less as tight as the other, even without a calibrated tool.
Finger-tight is simply a worst-case scenario, and any leatherman or even 2 dimes (I can get 5 in-lb easily using 2 dimes in the slot) will allow even more torque.
When I detached the mounts, the nuts "popped" loose (indicating that they had not rattled loose in 6 shots) on both mounts. The mount was not loose on the rail. Neither mount showed any sort of damage, nor did the rail. Not even "abnormal anodizing polishing" of surfaces that shouldn't see it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3o2QKoOpjk
*Finger-tight looks to RTZ to well within the capability of all but the very most precise of platforms...note, the video is at 145 yards.
*Applying torque to 1 nut only, he achieved a shift of about 1 MOA (accounting for 145y target distance).
Great info. I'd still wager that when limited to a simple tool one could easily have a 5% or more difference in torque value from one nut to the other. It would be neat to compare RTZ between the two mounts with this in mind.
Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
SomeOtherGuy
08-24-16, 22:33
Shift in targeted aimpoint
Thank you Trident! It looks like both mounts did very well, but the Geissele was nearly perfect while the NF had a modest shift. The NF still did extremely well and better than I would expect of any mount tested this way.
Thank you Trident! It looks like both mounts did very well, but the Geissele was nearly perfect while the NF had a modest shift. The NF still did extremely well and better than I would expect of any mount tested this way.
I think you have it backwards?
Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
I think you have it backwards?
Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
I honestly do not feel that the platform used is precise enough to make that conclusion, although this singular test did seem to show it. Me + this rifle and ammo combo are about a 1.5 MOA 10-shot capable platform. These groups were hovering around 1 MOA, which means that +- 0.5 MOA is statistically meaningless, in my opinion. I would say that both mounts performed equally, is my impression.
vicious_cb
09-11-16, 13:06
Thanks for posting the results. What is your current preference between these 2 mounts? Also I'm looking at the NF 1-4x fc3g and the vortex razor HD Gen ii 1-6x jm-1. Any thoughts why one would be better than the other? The use will be on a 14.5 or 16 inch 5.56 gun where 90% of the time its at 1x being used like a red dot while other other 10% it's being used to PID and range targets at max power.
Thanks for posting the results. What is your current preference between these 2 mounts? Also I'm looking at the NF 1-4x fc3g and the vortex razor HD Gen ii 1-6x jm-1. Any thoughts why one would be better than the other? The use will be on a 14.5 or 16 inch 5.56 gun where 90% of the time its at 1x being used like a red dot while other other 10% it's being used to PID and range targets at max power.
I think the Geissele is structurally sounder. They both RTZ the same for me. The Nightforce is about 1.5-2oz lighter. The Nightforce is machined much cleaner (less tool/machine marks). It's totally half dozen one or the other.
indianajonze
09-15-16, 15:00
For me the NF mount is the best non qd mount on the market. I strongly considered the geissele as I love their stuff, but to me its a clear #2 to the NF. It's heavier, has machine marks all over it and for some reason the very bright, bold writings on the sides bothered me. Makes my AR look like a billboard. NF is the very definition of stealth. Strong, silent, light and beautiful. On top of all this, it's actually cheaper than the geissele. No contest...
Sent from my Nexus 6P
I chose the Geissele extended Alcoa alloy version mount because it was the only non QD mount that had just the right ring spacing and amount of forward extension for my K16i and how I run my stock, has 0 cant and is the perfect height for me (1.540"), not to high and not to low. The machining and finish on mine is as perfect as I could ask for. The only thing I would change, would be to tell them to subdue the white lettering a little more, not a big deal for me though, and I don't think the bad guy is going to know or care either. For me, whether it is scope mounts, rails, barrels etc., a parts durability always trumps what it weighs. IMHO, with the Geissele mount you get both.
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3257.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3257.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3258.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3258.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3259.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3259.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3260.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3260.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3268.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3268.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3270.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3270.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3266.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3266.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3267.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3267.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3261.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3261.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3262.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3262.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3263.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3263.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3264.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3264.jpg.html)http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_3262.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_3262.jpg.html)
I have both mounts and like them both and would think any shooter would be fortunate to own either. But that Geissele mount is a work of art. Its stout and looks great. I just mounted the 20moa version and am very happy.
PB
Look like yours is cleaner than mine and without chipped anodizing. I still see some striations on the ring ID though, even though your focus was blurry on the ring IDs.
Look like yours is cleaner than mine and without chipped anodizing. I still see some striations on the ring ID though, even though your focus was blurry on the ring IDs.
Yeah, I can just barely see faint striations looking closely at the ring I.D's and cannot feel anything running my finger over them. Kind of like swirl marks in a cars clear coat or a smudge on a cell phone screen
you cannot wipe off.
Yeah, I can just barely see faint striations looking closely at the ring I.D's and cannot feel anything running my finger over them. Kind of like swirl marks in a cars clear coat or a smudge on a cell phone screen
you cannot wipe off.
Yep. Functionally not an issue, but for the price you kind of expect better.
CanineCombatives
09-17-16, 00:25
I'll keep flying below the canopy with my alamo dloc's
I'll keep flying below the canopy with my alamo dloc's
They used to have a ton of issues, but now as I understand it are not made in house, and are very solid after the redesign.
CanineCombatives
09-17-16, 03:01
I just talked to Dustin a few weeks back to order a 34mm for my new NF 4-16x, he told me about the production switch, I think I got my first one around 2011 and have been running them exclusively since then, all have been dead nuts, never needed lapping and grip like vices.
Now if geissele would get some sr25 mounts out in distribution that would be great.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.