View Full Version : ATF Reclassifies Wetted Nitrocellulose as Explosive Materials Under Federal Laws
titsonritz
08-30-16, 21:36
The puppet masters will go for any angle to reach their objective of disarming us. Here they are hamstringing the ammo manufacturers. :mad:
http://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/atf-reclassifies-wetted-nitrocellulose-as-explosive-materials-under-federal-laws/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork#axzz4IkyVDHBv
It explicitly states it would make it harder for military and police to get ammo. Do they just sit around all day attempting to dream up dumb shit to pass off as rulings to justify their dubious positions or what?
It explicitly states it would make it harder for military and police to get ammo. Do they just sit around all day attempting to dream up dumb shit to pass off as rulings to justify their dubious positions or what?
It's almost as if they want to destroy this country as we know it.... But nah, it's all just coincidence I'm sure.
Every few weeks it's something new....
This is another solution to a problem that did not exist. "ATF’s sudden and unexpected change in policy on wetted nitrocellulose will likely have a significant impact on industry’s ability to deliver products to the military and commercial markets. Industry members have relied on the exemption for wetted nitrocellulose for many years and are aware of no accidental detonations or diversion of this product into illicit channels. Consequently, it is unclear why ATF believed it necessary to change its policy and, more importantly, why ATF announced the change in a newsletter article with no advance notice to industry."
Do they even piss test at the ATF anymore? Seriously. Someone somewhere is on Salvia or something.
Leave shit alone
It is almost as if they wanted to reduce the supply and increase the cost of ammunition.....like all their failed "price it out of affordability" $/rd ammo taxes.
Try this.
Constructive possession is when a person has all the necessary components to "readily assemble" an unregistered but regulated firearm such as a machine gun, SBR or destructive device.
Specifically mentioned under the ATF definition of "destructive devices" are molotov cocktails.
Do you right now have in your home a glass bottle, a rag and some form of accelerant such as alcohol or gasoline? Well then you are in "constructive possession" of an unregistered destructive device.
With the existing ATF definitions and regulations, I could easily convict nearly every American of a felony, including everyone at ATF and most other agencies of enforcement.
Moose-Knuckle
08-31-16, 05:00
It wasn't that long ago that the BATFE ruled the M201A1 ignitor fuse used in MIL/LEO/Civi smoke grenades as a DD. The M201A1 fuse is made with a Perchlorate mixture and Perchlorate is on the BATFE list of explosive compositions. I can remember when ammo dealers would sell ALS OC, CS, and smoke grenades to anyone online and at guns shows.
Just wait for them to rule small arms primers as DDs.
Averageman
08-31-16, 06:52
I'm just guessing someone from the DOD might want to take a drive down to the ATF, find the Director and give him a swift kick in the nuts.
If you look at what this will do to production of military ammunition, they pretty much screwed everyone serving.
wilson1911
08-31-16, 07:21
If I read the article correctly. Company's will now have to apply for an explosive license, store components in magazines, introduce record keeping, and it will limit how much you can transport at a given time.
1. This will bring deliveries of components to a screeching halt
2. It will introduce storage limitations which will require millions of dollars in mag bunkers having to be built instead of housing in a warehouse. The sheer volume of this makes me cringe.
3. There was no warning given for compliance...is this even legal ?
4. There is a mention of getting a variance, but I do not think they would grant these for the entirety of the regulation.
By changing their ruling, I do not think they are trying to stop shipments, but create a revenue stream for more govt money. Everyone who touches said items will have to get an explosive license. ATF agents will roll in for inspections of your explosives wearing a gun on his hip. Don't laugh, they do this. I usually laugh when they are looking thru the mag full of dets or prima cord. The huge numbers alone will automatically guarantee fines for record keeping mistakes. They would be able to put a company out of business overnight from fines.
The alphabet agencies must have a think tank of jackoffs who sit around and just find new ways to mess with Americans.
At least this affects every shooter. Maybe the entire gun community will be outraged this time.
In case you didn't think the ATF was already asinine...I'm very interested to see how the ammunition manufacturers respond to this.
The alphabet agencies must have a think tank of jackoffs who sit around and just find new ways to mess with Americans.
Every agency has useless inept bureaucratic desk pushers who have nothing better to do. But this is what happens when you give those same morons regulatory authority
https://www.change.org/p/federal-government-wetted-nitrocellulose
Get started somewhere, anywhere.
Doc Safari
08-31-16, 11:35
Wow. Not only does Obama take our nuclear arsenal offline, now he's taken our conventional arsenal offline.
With all due respect to the hit civilian shooters will take over this, our national defense will be compromised too.
How is this product used in smokeless powder production? Is it a key component or an additive
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https://www.change.org/p/federal-government-wetted-nitrocellulose
Get started somewhere, anywhere.
Signed.
Appears to be a key component in the manufacturing of the powder.
Make sure to sign up, only 2 away from being a "Public" Petition. Share it on Facebook, social medias (I am at work and, sadly, can't share it myself until I get home) but let's start it here, with M4C.
https://www.change.org/p/federal-government-wetted-nitrocellulose
The newsletter reads like they change only affects how some places store the stuff and not it's usage or availability
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/655e4ffa4104065f578279d2219af82e.jpg
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The newsletter reads like they change only affects how some places store the stuff and not it's usage or availability
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/655e4ffa4104065f578279d2219af82e.jpg
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We are gaining support, in an hour we are now public, I am posting this in as many places as I can.
Kind of sad how they abused the language and wording in that article to avoid flashback.
I just want the government to stop dicking with liberty...
I just want the government to stop dicking with liberty...
Same, but it will never happen. The struggle has been constant since governments began, actually it's been going on since the beginning of mankind... someone always wants to control someone else.
wilson1911
08-31-16, 14:08
The newsletter reads like they change only affects how some places store the stuff and not it's usage or availability
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/655e4ffa4104065f578279d2219af82e.jpg
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What they are stating is technically correct. The regs state how you must store, transport, and record keeping of all materials. There is nothing in the regs about how this effects anyone. That's your problem. They are not stopping anyone from doing business, but if you do.....it's the gov way or no way. Anyone with an IQ over 3 knows this could collapse the market overnight...making anyone in possession a felon.
The worst part of it is having to store in it magazines, which also have a weight limit that can be stored at said location. Bunkers allow much more storage room than a magazine, but again, also fall under restrictions.
A store owner might buy a type 2 mag, but what are the manufactures going to do about entire drums of product ?
More bullshit.....yet....again.......
Their strategy is solid. Death by 1000 papercuts.
Doc Safari
08-31-16, 14:12
Practical reality without all the hysterics?
Will this realistically bankrupt the ammo industry (like Obama did the coal industry)?
Or...
Will it result in a drastic rise in prices over the next few months (and possibly a temporary shortage)?
It seems like with the demand that firearms and ammo purchases have enjoyed under this administration that the industry will eventually absorb it with some very real temporary pain.
Am I wrong? Correct me if I am, but cite your evidence.
Just trying to cut through what's actually going to happen versus starting yet another panic.
wilson1911
08-31-16, 14:47
I would think all products would be pulled from the shelves until this is sorted. Even if you disregard everything in the regs, you will still have to have records, which no one has. Who is going to keep selling a product without record keeping ? the ATF will pull up your order from a distributor and ask you how come you only have 3 pounds of powder and show that you ordered 500. Where is your manifest sir ???
All explosives must be checked in and out.
I'm not going to go into the regs, but lets just say that you cannot run out and buy a type 2 mag and wheel it over to where you used to have the powder on the shelves.
Lets wait and see what happens over the next few days. The key is what variances they will allow.
ColtSeavers
08-31-16, 15:21
So, this came out in June? Why are we just now hearing/freaking out about it? I would have thought it would have been much more immediate if it was causing any sort of problems?
I was rapping with someone today and he said something like "If you make everybody a criminal, you are just going to end up with more criminals than you can handle that are likely smarter than you".
Not saying I would, for obvious reasons, but if I wanted some crack cocaine; it would be stupid easy for me to get.
Yet any Cocaine is Sched II and illegal. But words on paper are words on paper and real life is real life.
Last I checked, cocaine and heroin is on the uptick.
Did anyone ever stop Special Agent Hooeverdafuk( Scandinavian name I am sure) in his cubicle and and ask "What good is this going to do anybody? Why can't you just sit back, play Candy Crush and collect a paycheck like all the other revenuers?"?
Governs least, governs best is not a pipe dream.
Because how are you really going to enforce anything?
What was working fine for decades is now suddenly wrong?!
The ATF fails as a revenue agency and definitely fails as a law enforcement agency. I am vexed as to why they still have relevance in the 21st century.
But, hey whatever
Because how are you really going to enforce anything?
This is how the Clintons do it.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uK5cdRq8jak/TawkdDmI-JI/AAAAAAAAH9A/uz4580-pN1U/s1600/flagatWaco.jpg
Note the ATF flag.
Yes, that happened. And will probably happen again.
You gotta have a real lack of conscience to be okay with immolating women and children then run up an agency flag in triumph like it was Mt. Suribachi
ColtSeavers
08-31-16, 17:23
https://www.atf.gov/file/109341/download
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/...-2016-addendum
Nitrocellulose - Update*
ATF’s June 2016 Explosives Industry Newsletter included a brief discussion of Nitrocellulose, and attempted to clarify the circumstances under which wetted Nitrocellulose is considered a high explosive under 27 CFR, Part 555. As with all explosives, ATF’s focus is on the potential public safety risks associated with materials that can be misused or diverted to unlawful purposes. Subsequent contact from industry members who import, transport, store or employ wetted Nitrocellulose in the production ofammunition, however, has brought to our attention issues that were not fully addressed in the Newsletter and require further consultation and consideration with the industry. Accordingly, ATF has and will conduct further industry outreach concerning wetted Nitrocellulose. In the interim, previously authorized industry practices concerning wetted Nitrocellulose will not be affected.*
Thanks Colt!
Good to see it was brought up after the fact that they published it without clarification. Will update.
I couldnt find that when i was researching this earlier, but it is relieving.
SomeOtherGuy
08-31-16, 20:23
In addition to post #32, note that "wetted nitrocellulose" is used for transportation and intermediate storage. The finished smokeless powder isn't wetted, or else it wouldn't burn. This may be a C-F for powder manufacturers but even if implemented as published it would not seem to directly affect ammunition (vs. powder) makers or reloaders, since fully manufactured smokeless powder is a different material than wetted nitrocellulose.
Per post #32, hopefully this will just go away anyway.
So are they backpedaling?
So are they backpedaling?
They have amended their statement to include that the impact to the ammunition manufacturers is noted and they can continue previously approved methods on an "interim" basis. Meaning they may be allowed to continue until they have the equipment on sight at the locations, or possible won't apply to them. But, I really have no idea on when/if they plan to push it further.
We are at 53 supporters, while not a ton, I got a notice saying less than 15% of all submissions get that much support. Even at 100, they'll issue a letter to the BAFTE expressing our concerns about the potential impact to the industry, sport, and livelihoods of many. This will include reloading, purchasing, military/government impact, etc.
It will be much less a demand for continuing current process, and much more a demand of justification on why these regulations are needed, and if nothing concrete can be provided, it should remain as it has been for decades.
If nothing else this should highlight the ineptitude that is the ATF and supports their dissolving
If nothing else this should highlight the ineptitude that is the ATF and supports their dissolving
If more than just this merry band of gents that is us cared you would be onto something. But alas most gun owners are either completely unaware of, or at most ambivalent to the ineptitude of this grouping of treasury agents.
They have amended their statement to include that the impact to the ammunition manufacturers is noted and they can continue previously approved methods on an "interim" basis. Meaning they may be allowed to continue until they have the equipment on sight at the locations, or possible won't apply to them. But, I really have no idea on when/if they plan to push it further.
We are at 53 supporters, while not a ton, I got a notice saying less than 15% of all submissions get that much support. Even at 100, they'll issue a letter to the BAFTE expressing our concerns about the potential impact to the industry, sport, and livelihoods of many. This will include reloading, purchasing, military/government impact, etc.
It will be much less a demand for continuing current process, and much more a demand of justification on why these regulations are needed, and if nothing concrete can be provided, it should remain as it has been for decades.
That's how it read to me also. Talk about lack of competence....lol......
"We make these rulz by the.......huh....piwrs, or um powrs, power? Yes, power vested in us.....(inaudible) oh....um.....so I guess we can't really unforced,....mmmm.... Enforce our own rulz....(inaudible)...oh rules.....silly me I before E except after P,Q,Z and C should have nown it wazs ES...lol.. Anyway..... These rules since we decried? Decree? Ah **** it.......decided that you can't do that anymore, for the safeties of the khildrens that it's now explosives....... (inaudible) your right never been done before, and mechanicisms in place to actually administer this ruley-O dont exist..... That's a problem carlos......."
"Carlos, this is a stupid problem, but , a problem non the less.... What if we just make the rule, and then just say, if it comes up, that we'll let you go ahead and keep doing what you've been doing for basically evar, since ahemm...."WE" don't even know how in the blue **** we're.....mmm..."WE" don't even know how to ummmmm..... Administrate? Our own rulz..."
Idiots...... Are they actually this ****ing stupid.......is this a joke? All seriousness, how can they even do this with a straight goddam face......
That's how it read to me also. Talk about lack of competence....lol......
"We make these rulz by the.......huh....piwrs, or um powrs, power? Yes, power vested in us.....(inaudible) oh....um.....so I guess we can't really unforced,....mmmm.... Enforce our own rulz....(inaudible)...oh rules.....silly me I before E except after P,Q,Z and C should have nown it wazs ES...lol.. Anyway..... These rules since we decried? Decree? Ah **** it.......decided that you can't do that anymore, for the safeties of the khildrens that it's now explosives....... (inaudible) your right never been done before, and mechanicisms in place to actually administer this ruley-O dont exist..... That's a problem carlos......."
"Carlos, this is a stupid problem, but , a problem non the less.... What if we just make the rule, and then just say, if it comes up, that we'll let you go ahead and keep doing what you've been doing for basically evar, since ahemm...."WE" don't even know how in the blue **** we're.....mmm..."WE" don't even know how to ummmmm..... Administrate? Our own rulz..."
Idiots...... Are they actually this ****ing stupid.......is this a joke? All seriousness, how can they even do this with a straight goddam face......
This made me laugh, a lot. Seems like an accurate presentation.
https://www.change.org/p/federal-government-wetted-nitrocellulose
We are at 60 supporters today. 40 more and our letter will go to the BAFTE.
https://www.atf.gov/file/109341/download
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/...-2016-addendum
Is it really even a contest at this point that BATFE is the STUPIDEST federal agency in existence? I mean the State Dept. tries to give them a run for their money but... :confused:
Whomever dreamed up a need to regulate or tax liquor, smokes, and guns seriously needed a kick in the balls with a steel toed boot.
Just a friendly reminder that for almost 40 years into the 20th century, whorehouses were legal, dope was legal, except for a brief upset there liquor was legal, and full auto was at your local hardware store and people were doing pretty good until government got involved and started taxing shit and shipping folks off to other people's wars then banning stuff.
Seriously....Great Gatsby parties where people got riggity riggity REKT happened quite a bit.
Boy I sure feel free.
Whomever dreamed up a need to regulate or tax liquor, smokes, and guns seriously needed a kick in the balls with a steel toed boot.
Just a friendly reminder that for almost 40 years into the 20th century, whorehouses were legal, dope was legal, except for a brief upset there liquor was legal, and full auto was at your local hardware store and people were doing pretty good until government got involved and started taxing shit and shipping folks off to other people's wars then banning stuff.
Seriously....Great Gatsby parties where people got riggity riggity REKT happened quite a bit.
Boy I sure feel free.
Firefly, you make my day.
Up to 82 Supporters today. 18 away from submitting a letter to Krissy Carlson herself expressing concerns over the ATF over stretching their abilities.
https://www.change.org/p/federal-government-atf-wetted-nitrocellulose
A big thanks to any and all here who supported. While it may not impact us immediately, if they continue to try and pull stuff like this, it's going to be a bad situation for all of us. It's 12.6% Wetted Nitro today, what will it be next month that impacts our industry?
It would appear they have un-decided their decision. At least for now.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/09/robert-farago/breaking-atf-withdraws-wetted-nitrocellulose-regs-proposal/
It would appear they have un-decided their decision. At least for now.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/09/robert-farago/breaking-atf-withdraws-wetted-nitrocellulose-regs-proposal/
Except for the fact that they're just trying to find another way to do it...
However, because of industry input about the possible consequences of this proposed regulation, the BATFE has decided to withdraw it for further consideration. It could still happen, but for now it’s on hold.
This is simply another way to say, "well shoot, we didn't get that one through under the radar, so we are looking for another way to make it happen, stay tuned."
ColtSeavers
09-03-16, 10:03
Except for the fact that they're just trying to find another way to do it...
This is simply another way to say, "well shoot, we didn't get that one through under the radar, so we are looking for another way to make it happen, stay tuned."
They're just waiting for the elections results.
If more than just this merry band of gents that is us cared you would be onto something. But alas most gun owners are either completely unaware of, or at most ambivalent to the ineptitude of this grouping of treasury agents.
They know *EXACTLY AND PRECISELY* what they are doing...
-----------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Mr. Goodtimes
09-03-16, 10:24
Too bad Trump won't abolish the ATF.
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