View Full Version : HK416 wins French trials?
Firearms Blog is reporting that the French have chosen the 416 over the SCAR as the FAMAS replacement.
True or internet rumor?
No news releases from the Ministre de la defense . . .
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/30/breaking-next-french-infantry-rifle-german-heckler-koch-reportedly-wins-french-aif-rifle-competition/
I'm surprised since I'm used to them being hell bent on domestically developed weapons.
call_me_ski
08-31-16, 14:51
I'm surprised since I'm used to them being hell bent on domestically developed weapons.
They normally are. However there is little left in the way of domestic small arms production in France. The last FAMAS was made 20 years ago and the rifles are tired. Even if they wanted to buy more FAMAS rifles it would be difficult.
It would make a lot more sense.
Also, some units have been using H&K for a while now.
As a side note, notice how small arms production has shifted east in the last few decades?
Also, some units have been using H&K for a while now.
As a side note, notice how small arms production has shifted east in the last few decades?
I don't see it as much of a change. FN has been a massive NATO supplier from its inception. We used FN to replace the M60, first on vehicles then for the infantry. FN got the call for the SAW and got in on the M16A2. HK seems to be branching out though, that's for sure. I wonder if the fact that domestic manufacturers have the option for good volume in the private sector compared to European ones has anything to do with it. A lot of these foreign companies rely on government contracts for their very existence.
It isn't exclusive to small arms either. Our MBT uses a German gun made here under license. The Leopard II currently has an even better version that we are choosing not to adopt since the barrel length may be a detriment to the urban fighting we keep finding ourselves in.
Then again "decades" is a long time. So in the 80s I guess it really got underway.
I hardly believe that even though the famas is so old that they are anywhere close to being worn out. Just sayin
Ned Christiansen
08-31-16, 18:48
The FAMAS fleet is not necessarily all worn out (part of it certainly is though). It suffers from other maladies, one biggie being little in the way of support, as the outfit that made them is no longer in operation. There is also an ammo issue; the FAMAS is particular about ammo, especially the cases.
I think it may have run its course as the French rifle and perhaps suffers a crisis of confidence. There are a few more levels to it but I still have this fantasy of someone buying them all and offering the kits here with US-made receivers.
Darn shame really, when things were right I think they were satisfied and well-enough served by it, and it keeps things interesting and patriotic when each country has its own home-grown weapons.
My friends there told me a month ago it was gonna be between the SCAR and the HK and that the HK was probably gonna get it.
There is still support there for the FAMAS but I'll bet they wind up in the smelter or the channel....
Spin Drift
08-31-16, 21:05
Sort of makes sense, they only have 111000 Army personnel, of which just how many are combat arms troops?
N.Z. played it smart and adopted the L.M.T. when they needed a new rifle.
I know N.Z. is much smaller than France, but same kind of deal.
You have to imagine that with the recent terror attacks in France and their commitment to fight ISIS that their defense budget probably got a good bump. I think I remember Larry Vickers or someone (can remember who and might be making this up due to the Maker's Mark) mentioning that the UK and France were both looking at the AR platform in some way or another after the success it has had across with the many European special operations units for its versatility and modularity (not to mention the UK purchase of LMT DMR's). Having said that, what makes France odd is that they are still utilizing Ruger Mini-14's they purchased over 30 years ago for their Police Forces, so the adoption of a new service rifle does seem a little off considering that they switched over to the 1/9 twist version with in the last 20 years. Then again I'm just a keyboard quarterback and have no actual knowledge of France's DOD.
The HK is impressive. Too bad that quality doesn't carry over to civilian rifles.
The UK has already been using the M4 with SOF personnel and of course the LMT L129A1 with UK forces. I believe UK armed police personnel recently started getting SIG MCX's or something.
You have to imagine that with the recent terror attacks in France and their commitment to fight ISIS that their defense budget probably got a good bump. I think I remember Larry Vickers or someone (can remember who and might be making this up due to the Maker's Mark) mentioning that the UK and France were both looking at the AR platform in some way or another after the success it has had across with the many European special operations units for its versatility and modularity (not to mention the UK purchase of LMT DMR's). Having said that, what makes France odd is that they are still utilizing Ruger Mini-14's they purchased over 30 years ago for their Police Forces, so the adoption of a new service rifle does seem a little off considering that they switched over to the 1/9 twist version with in the last 20 years. Then again I'm just a keyboard quarterback and have no actual knowledge of France's DOD.
The UK has already been using the M4 with SOF personnel
Isn't it a Diemaco/Colt Canada C7 or something?
They normally are. However there is little left in the way of domestic small arms production in France. The last FAMAS was made 20 years ago and the rifles are tired. Even if they wanted to buy more FAMAS rifles it would be difficult.
they could still use something with a french name like the SCAR
sundance435
09-01-16, 16:39
You have to imagine that with the recent terror attacks in France and their commitment to fight ISIS that their defense budget probably got a good bump. I think I remember Larry Vickers or someone (can remember who and might be making this up due to the Maker's Mark) mentioning that the UK and France were both looking at the AR platform in some way or another after the success it has had across with the many European special operations units for its versatility and modularity (not to mention the UK purchase of LMT DMR's). Having said that, what makes France odd is that they are still utilizing Ruger Mini-14's they purchased over 30 years ago for their Police Forces, so the adoption of a new service rifle does seem a little off considering that they switched over to the 1/9 twist version with in the last 20 years. Then again I'm just a keyboard quarterback and have no actual knowledge of France's DOD.
No, their defense budget got a slight bump (like 1 or 2%) this year and is on track for a 4% bump next year, but that's after years of sustained budget and personnel cuts. They were stretched pretty thin just by a limited, sustained op in Mali when they had only limited assets already committed to Libya.
If I was in the budget office at the MOD, an off-the-shelf option like the HK would certainly be more attractive. You wouldn't have the sunk costs of developing your own. Add to that the fact that many French Army FAMAS's inherently can't accurately fire STANAG ammunition because of the barrel twist (1:12) (or take STANAG magazines, for that matter) and the lack of support, then the 416 probably doesn't cost a lot more in the long term.
The HK is impressive. Too bad that quality doesn't carry over to civilian rifles.
You must not be looking at the same rifles I am. Not a fanboy at all, but the MR556 is amazing quality...which coincidentally, is why it costs too much.
You must not be looking at the same rifles I am. Not a fanboy at all, but the MR556 is amazing quality...which coincidentally, is why it costs too much.
$2800 For a non-chrome lined Barrel bugs me. You can find Barrett Rec7 for around $1800 and they weigh only 7.2 lbs with what I imagine is just as reliable piston.
No, their defense budget got a slight bump (like 1 or 2%) this year and is on track for a 4% bump next year, but that's after years of sustained budget and personnel cuts. They were stretched pretty thin just by a limited, sustained op in Mali when they had only limited assets already committed to Libya.
If I was in the budget office at the MOD, an off-the-shelf option like the HK would certainly be more attractive. You wouldn't have the sunk costs of developing your own. Add to that the fact that many French Army FAMAS's inherently can't accurately fire STANAG ammunition because of the barrel twist (1:12) (or take STANAG magazines, for that matter) and the lack of support, then the 416 probably doesn't cost a lot more in the long term.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they upgraded the Famas to a barrel with a 1/9 twist.
From what I understand, the HK416 was capable of passing the French drop-tests with the highest marks. The drop-test is really the only one that the French take seriously.
From what I understand, the HK416 was capable of passing the French drop-tests with the highest marks. The drop-test is really the only one that the French take seriously.
Boom! Funniest thing I've read in awhile!
From what I understand, the HK416 was capable of passing the French drop-tests with the highest marks. The drop-test is really the only one that the French take seriously.
Nice!
It did the white flag attached waving thingie good too.
Mr. Goodtimes
09-02-16, 10:09
I think it's definitely a step in the right direction. While the 416 wouldn't be my very first choice, it is an extremely high quality weapon and wouldn't be far from my first choice. It's definitely an infinitely better option than what most euro trash countries come up with.
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I think it's definitely a step in the right direction. While the 416 wouldn't be my very first choice, it is an extremely high quality weapon and wouldn't be far from my first choice. It's definitely an infinitely better option than what most euro trash countries come up with.
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Have you used a 416 in combat? What would be your first choice?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they upgraded the Famas to a barrel with a 1/9 twist.
They did, back in 1995.
FAMAS G2, upgrades to allow use of Ball, F4 or F5, their version of SS109, and a few other odds and ends.
However, only the Fusiliers Marins and Commandos Marine (not to be confused with the Troupes de marine) have issued the G2 on a wide scale, the Armée de terre, still uses the F1
They did, back in 1995.
FAMAS G2, upgrades to allow use of Ball, F4 or F5, their version of SS109, and a few other odds and ends.
However, only the Fusiliers Marins and Commandos Marine (not to be confused with the Troupes de marine) have issued the G2 on a wide scale, the Armée de terre, still uses the F1
Really? The French have perfected food, wine, and given us one of the greatest gun films of all time (the Professional), but sure as hell missed the mark when it comes to creating a firearm that can take a 5.56 round.
wildcard600
09-03-16, 09:53
Really? The French have perfected food, wine, and given us one of the greatest gun films of all time (the Professional), but sure as hell missed the mark when it comes to creating a firearm that can take a 5.56 round.
That's what happens when you destroy your domestic arms production. It would be interesting to know if there is any premier small arms company not owned by the state that survives on only military and police sales.
HK uses French Steel and that may have played into the decision.
mebiuspower
09-03-16, 10:49
Really? The French have perfected food, wine, and given us one of the greatest gun films of all time (the Professional), but sure as hell missed the mark when it comes to creating a firearm that can take a 5.56 round.
The French still can't put a car together.
HK uses French Steel and that may have played into the decision.
That's surprising considering the quality of steel available in Germany.
That's surprising considering the quality of steel available in Germany.
French Steel (http://www.aubertduval.com/aubert-duval-about-us/aubert-duval-company-history.html)
Germany is the largest producer of steel in the EU, yet still imports large amounts of steel, not to mention pig iron and iron ore from many other places. That is just an indicator of how much steel Germany consumes annually.
French Steel (http://www.aubertduval.com/aubert-duval-about-us/aubert-duval-company-history.html)
Did I miss where the H&K tie-in was on that page?
From what I understand, the HK416 was capable of passing the French drop-tests with the highest marks. The drop-test is really the only one that the French take seriously.
And you have deployed with and worked with French Armed Forces how many times?
I think it's definitely a step in the right direction. While the 416 wouldn't be my very first choice, it is an extremely high quality weapon and wouldn't be far from my first choice. It's definitely an infinitely better option than what most euro trash countries come up with.
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Do you have examples of poor weapons chosen by "euro-trash" countries?
Did I miss where the H&K tie-in was on that page?
Nope it isn't advertised.
Do you have examples of poor weapons chosen by "euro-trash" countries?
Damn those Euro-trash, huh Arctic? [emoji3][emoji3]
And you have deployed with and worked with French Armed Forces how many times?
I was wondering the same thing...
I might diss the French politicians... I would not diss their Army, especially some of their units.
I dunno man. You could criticize French politics, their attitudes here and there, and their food but....
If my fat ass were kidnapped up by a bunch of crazy ass Africans hepped up on dope, Gucci Mane CDs, that messed up African moonshine I saw on Youtube, and said they were gonna eat me after my turn in the cracker barrel then hell freaking yes I want the FFL paratroopers to storm in like the Guns of the Navarrone.
All that aside...I don't know squat about FAMASes and again wonder why every NATO country doesn't just use some kind of AR for everybody.
You have to imagine that with the recent terror attacks in France and their commitment to fight ISIS that their defense budget probably got a good bump. I think I remember Larry Vickers or someone (can remember who and might be making this up due to the Maker's Mark) mentioning that the UK and France were both looking at the AR platform in some way or another after the success it has had across with the many European special operations units for its versatility and modularity (not to mention the UK purchase of LMT DMR's). Having said that, what makes France odd is that they are still utilizing Ruger Mini-14's they purchased over 30 years ago for their Police Forces, so the adoption of a new service rifle does seem a little off considering that they switched over to the 1/9 twist version with in the last 20 years. Then again I'm just a keyboard quarterback and have no actual knowledge of France's DOD.
In the late 1970's or early 1980's the French National Police and the Gendarmerie adopted French license built versions of the Ruger Speed Six .357 revolvers and the Mini 14 known as the AMD Mousqueton (carbine). The AMD is select fire with a true 5.56 chamber, a modified charging handle and an M-1 carbine style sling cut in the stock. They specifically wanted something which did not look like the FAMAS. At the time it was a good upgrade from a .32 acp pistols and a mix of WWII era SMG's.
They currently carry the SIG SP2022 pistols and use a mix of AMD carbines and HK MP-5's. You will see French police reserve units with all sorts of stuff including the old MAT 49 SMG's. Their special units favor Glocks and a variety of long guns including HK G36C's, 416's, SCARs, SIGs and Benelli shotguns.
In the late 1970's or early 1980's the French National Police and the Gendarmerie adopted French license built versions of the Ruger Speed Six .357 revolvers and the Mini 14 known as the AMD Mousqueton (carbine). The AMD is select fire with a true 5.56 chamber, a modified charging handle and an M-1 carbine style sling cut in the stock. They specifically wanted something which did not look like the FAMAS.
During the same era our PDs were lucky to have a patrol shotgun, much less a carbine. A few did have semi minis. The trend for every US beat cop to have an operator AR is quite new.
The need for French national police force to be nonmilitary in nature stems from the same reason we did not have a national police until DHS. Plus some history regarding military usage around civvies.
Mr. Goodtimes
09-04-16, 07:57
Have you used a 416 in combat? What would be your first choice?
In combat? No. And I'm not claiming to be an SME as I haven't even stayed at a holiday inn in quite some time. An SR-15 would be my pick. Lighter, longer rail, better recoil impulse, just as reliable.
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Mr. Goodtimes
09-04-16, 08:29
Do you have examples of poor weapons chosen by "euro-trash" countries?
The G36, the FAMAS... While the FAMAS isn't really a bad weapon it is a bullpup.
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The G36, the FAMAS... While the FAMAS isn't really a bad weapon it is a bullpup.
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So, out of 50 nations in Europe, you came up with two examples?
Many of the so-called "euro trash" countries are strong US allies, and have supported your efforts in recent modern conflicts.
Also, you statement/assertion really holds no merit, as the weapons chosen by each country's military have been so after passing whatever requirements that have been put forth (regardless of whether they are good requirements or the right requirements).
The only big story about personal weapons not working working properly I am familiar with is the G36 issue with the Bundeswehr, and HK was recently found to be in compliance with contract spec, thus not at fault.
And you have deployed with and worked with French Armed Forces how many times?
I have worked with both the Legion and the Army....... and that was funny. Get over it.
So, out of 50 nations in Europe, you came up with two examples?
Many of the so-called "euro trash" countries are strong US allies, and have supported your efforts in recent modern conflicts.
Also, you statement/assertion really holds no merit, as the weapons chosen by each country's military have been so after passing whatever requirements that have been put forth (regardless of whether they are good requirements or the right requirements).
The only big story about personal weapons not working working properly I am familiar with is the G36 issue with the Bundeswehr, and HK was recently found to be in compliance with contract spec, thus not at fault.
I have also worked with almost every SOF unit from Europe and I can tell you that those that don;t use the M4 (and its variants) want to use it no matter what they currently have. Special units in the French Army have been using the 416 for at least 10 years that I know of. So this is no big surprise. And they too would rather use a Mk18 any day. As a matter of fact i and friends with one French SOF guy that would leave his 416 in the rack and sign out a MK18 from us when he went out.
Yes, many of these European are our allies and many would prefer to use a M4 any day over what they have.
Before you get too self-righteous remember why your official language is not Russian or German......
And back on track. ;)
I am not denying that the AR FOW offers lots of advantages over other platforms; that wasn't my point. The main advantage is modularity and modernization with the advent of the pic rail system - very few other designs followed this development during the same time; it took a while for them to catch up.
Weapons selection for large contracts is what it is, with end user trials that do affect the outcome - in addition to other requirements.
We fielded the HK416 military wide starting in 2008, and thus far the verdict is that the system has a much longer service life than the C8's that our SOF use. Our Army SOF still haven't converted to 416's, for various reasons, but will have to when the C8 inventory is depleted.
And I did get the joke. Just trying to convey that the French mil is a bit different now than perhaps WW2....
Oh, and dancke schön/spasiba :)
We fielded the HK416 military wide starting in 2008, and thus far the verdict is that the system has a much longer service life than the C8's that our SOF use.
The HK416 has continued to evolve and, while the original had some parts wear issues, I believe HK has worked that out.
As I understand it, the A5 is supposed to have at least twice the service life of a legacy AR. Has that been your experience?
Mr. Goodtimes
09-04-16, 16:45
So, out of 50 nations in Europe, you came up with two examples?
Many of the so-called "euro trash" countries are strong US allies, and have supported your efforts in recent modern conflicts.
Also, you statement/assertion really holds no merit, as the weapons chosen by each country's military have been so after passing whatever requirements that have been put forth (regardless of whether they are good requirements or the right requirements).
The only big story about personal weapons not working working properly I am familiar with is the G36 issue with the Bundeswehr, and HK was recently found to be in compliance with contract spec, thus not at fault.
Let not ye angus be hurt good sir. The euro trash comment was sarcastic, a joke, and meant tongue and cheek. I'm going to go out on a limb and presume you own one of or both of the two rifles in question?
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MountainRaven
09-04-16, 16:58
Let not ye angus be hurt good sir. The euro trash comment was sarcastic, a joke, and meant tongue and cheek. I'm going to go out on a limb and presume you own one of or both of the two rifles in question?
Arctic has (or had) a very professional relationship with the HK416N (and the AG3 before that).
I think it is safe to posit, given his career in a NATO military as a grunt with deployment(s) to Afghanistan, that he has served alongside French soldiers rocking the FAMAS in combat, in addition to Germans, Spaniards, Lithuanians, and Latvians armed with G36s.
Oh, and dancke schön/spasiba :)
Nei, mange takk! :p
Ha, you could say he has experience with the 416.
And I did get the joke. Just trying to convey that the French mil is a bit different now than perhaps WW2....
Oh, and dancke schön/spasiba :)
Gut, weil ich hoffe, Sie verstehen , dass ich nicht ein Scherz...... :jester:
I hope that is correct because my French is much better then my German..... which sucks.
And I too have used the 416 a few times and I do not like it at all. That is also a few times down range......
BoringGuy45
09-05-16, 00:08
Gut, weil ich hoffe, Sie verstehen , dass ich nicht ein Scherz...... :jester:
I hope that is correct because my French is much better then my German..... which sucks.
And I too have used the 416 a few times and I do not like it at all. That is also a few times down range......
I've only been able to hold a 416; didn't get any trigger time. I didn't like the way it felt (too front heavy). What didn't you like about the operation of it?
Did I miss where the H&K tie-in was on that page?
You can find a hint there: http://www.aubertduval.com/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf_gb/A_D_Armement_Mars_2010.pdf
HK uses A&D as exclusive alloys supplier because A&D are are willing to work with HK on special demands, even considering that HK is small customer.
The HK416 has continued to evolve and, while the original had some parts wear issues, I believe HK has worked that out.
As I understand it, the A5 is supposed to have at least twice the service life of a legacy AR. Has that been your experience?
I have no experience with the A5, and cannot speak to any new material choices and/or new manufacturing protocols used for the A5.
The norwegian mil could have gotten the A5 had they waited just a bit longer - instead they purchased 17000 new slightly modified HK416N to supplement the 25000 already in service. The changes were the slimline stock, grip without finger tab and no adjustable gas regulator.
One important thing to remember about HK is that they build rifles to customer specifications. The HK416N is not the same spec as what was issued to US SOF, for example. You can specify barrel profiles, receiver extensions, gas blocks, sights etc.
Gut, weil ich hoffe, Sie verstehen , dass ich nicht ein Scherz...... :jester:
I hope that is correct because my French is much better then my German..... which sucks.
And I too have used the 416 a few times and I do not like it at all. That is also a few times down range......
Different strokes for different folks. I like the rifle, and carried it on duty for 5 years. It has performed well in training and in combat, in various climates ranging from hot desert to the arctic.
Special units in the French Army have been using the 416 for at least 10 years that I know of. So this is no big surprise. And they too would rather use a Mk18 any day. As a matter of fact i and friends with one French SOF guy that would leave his 416 in the rack and sign out a MK18 from us when he went out.
Curious why they would select a MK18 over the 416? Also interested in what you didn't like about it.
Ned Christiansen
09-05-16, 10:58
http://www.invaluable.co.uk/auction-lot/very-rare-pre-ban-french-semi-automatic-famas-bul-725-c-50241039d1
MountainRaven
09-05-16, 13:25
Curious why they would select a MK18 over the 416? Also interested in what you didn't like about it.
Particularly given that the most used configuration of the Mk18 is pretty much right in the HK416's boathouse (per Vickers: sub-14.5" barrel with suppressor).
http://www.invaluable.co.uk/auction-lot/very-rare-pre-ban-french-semi-automatic-famas-bul-725-c-50241039d1
It sure is an Ugly little thing, but deliciously different. I'd own one in a fast second.
Ned Christiansen
09-05-16, 21:04
I had one on order from Century Arms in, I think, 1980 for, as I recall, $1100. The story was they never made it through customs, and I got my money back.
I had one on order from Century Arms in, I think, 1980 for, as I recall, $1100. The story was they never made it through customs, and I got my money back.
That is a shame, so close.
HKGuns and Fjallhrafn:
I don't intend to speak for docsherm, but I would assume that it has to do with weight and recoil impulse. It is different than on an M4/DI gun.
For me, I don't find those things as an issue, but I had been using a G3 prior.
For someone who has been using an M4/MK18, the added weight and different recoil impulse might not be worth the squeeze.
HKGuns and Fjallhrafn:
I don't intend to speak for docsherm, but I would assume that it has to do with weight and recoil impulse. It is different than on an M4/DI gun.
For me, I don't find those things as an issue, but I had been using a G3 prior.
For someone who has been using an M4/MK18, the added weight and different recoil impulse might not be worth the squeeze.
Thanks Arctic. I figured that was the case too, but I too don't find one or the other a deal breaker. Hopefully Doc comes back to give us his read.
2 SOF units got HK416. One unit got it after using light and handy SR16s. Second got them after using basically 5.56 AKMs (Beryl). First unit do not have much love fo HK because heavy and kicking (while they admit that ultra reliable), second loves them because they are light and soft shooting (and as reliable as their old Beryl and Mini Beryl rifles).
This are not official statements from both units, this is what I got about their feelings on matter from few members of those units that I had opportunity to talk with. But I think it sums nicely how it is easy to form opposite views on same product.
leibermuster
09-07-16, 13:31
Gut, weil ich hoffe, Sie verstehen , dass ich nicht ein Scherz...... :jester:
I hope that is correct because my French is much better then my German..... which sucks.
And I too have used the 416 a few times and I do not like it at all. That is also a few times down range......
What specifically did you not like?
HKGuns and Fjallhrafn:
I don't intend to speak for docsherm, but I would assume that it has to do with weight and recoil impulse. It is different than on an M4/DI gun.
For me, I don't find those things as an issue, but I had been using a G3 prior.
For someone who has been using an M4/MK18, the added weight and different recoil impulse might not be worth the squeeze.
Sorry for the late reply:
Thanks for the input Artic1.
He was correct on the recoil impulse, I hate that. I do not mind the weight except that it is VERY unbalanced.
From what I have heard the only reason that the 416 was ever used in USSOM was because it had a CHF barrel and that gave it a greater life span (we are talking years not the normal months). Now that the MK18 has a CHF barrel I see no need to need for it. I also do no like piston guns, not to the point of MARKM, but I do not like them. Extra parts that can fail and they are not needed. I also just did not like to shoot it. I used a 14.5 M4 over it many times.
Guns are like woman, you will never find two men that agree that one is better than the other.
methical20
09-07-16, 21:49
Sorry for the late reply:
Thanks for the input Artic1.
He was correct on the recoil impulse, I hate that. I do not mind the weight except that it is VERY unbalanced.
From what I have heard the only reason that the 416 was ever used in USSOM was because it had a CHF barrel and that gave it a greater life span (we are talking years not the normal months). Now that the MK18 has a CHF barrel I see no need to need for it. I also do no like piston guns, not to the point of MARKM, but I do not like them. Extra parts that can fail and they are not needed. I also just did not like to shoot it. I used a 14.5 M4 over it many times.
Guns are like woman, you will never find two men that agree that one is better than the other.
@docsherm - Thank you for sharing your opinion and experience with us. It is appreciated.
You mentioned that the MK18 uses a CHF barrel now? I thought it was a standard Colt 10.3". Is there another supplier, or is Colt making CHF barrels for the military?
Sorry for the late reply:
Thanks for the input Artic1.
He was correct on the recoil impulse, I hate that. I do not mind the weight except that it is VERY unbalanced.
From what I have heard the only reason that the 416 was ever used in USSOM was because it had a CHF barrel and that gave it a greater life span (we are talking years not the normal months). Now that the MK18 has a CHF barrel I see no need to need for it. I also do no like piston guns, not to the point of MARKM, but I do not like them. Extra parts that can fail and they are not needed. I also just did not like to shoot it. I used a 14.5 M4 over it many times.
Guns are like woman, you will never find two men that agree that one is better than the other.
Thanks for sharing Doc.
I like blondes and brunettes as long as they have.......well you know.
Spin Drift
09-07-16, 22:28
The FAMAS never did it for me, but I just saw the PE 57 ad, almost bought one from Reed in 84(?), when he 1st opened Lawmen's and Shooters.
I was worried about ammo availability for the 7.5 Swiss caliber… I think it was about $2500, I had just bought a Steyr-Daimler-Puch stamped standard FAL for $1440 out the door from Buck's Gun Rack in Daytona, I was still in class at ERAU.
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/scarce,-desirable-sig-model-pe57-semi-automatic-r-724-c-95249b396c?campaign=rr
Ned Christiansen
09-07-16, 22:31
I was present for the KaBooming of an StG57 about ten years ago. That was an unhappy occurrence.
Yes, handloads. Not saying they were bad but they had already been fired once through the fluted chamber. I gather that's a no-no.... or at least since that day I have felt that it may be.
From what I have heard the only reason that the 416 was ever used in USSOM was because it had a CHF barrel and that gave it a greater life span (we are talking years not the normal months).
In all the testing reports and studies published by BRL and ARL about cold rotary forged and rotary swaged barrels, the one thing that has never been mentioned in them is that CHF or CRS barrels have a longer life.
For barrel made from the same 41V50 steel:
- They have stated that the grain structure is finer.
- They have stated that the hoop strength is slightly higher.
- They have stated that the barrel-to-barrel variation is smaller.
- They have stated that the process time is shorter.
- They have stated that it is possible to make a finished, chambered, profiled barrel in a single pass (rotary forging only).
- They have often recommended that rotary forging and rotary swaging be used more extensively in barrel manufacture, as once the machine cost is amortized, the product is substantially cheaper to make, while consistency improves.
But, they have never stated they last longer.
In all the testing reports and studies published by BRL and ARL about cold rotary forged and rotary swaged barrels, the one thing that has never been mentioned in them is that CHF or CRS barrels have a longer life.
Snip
But, they have never stated they last longer.
One Army study found exactly that, I'd have to dig it out.
My layman read: There is a reason it's specified for machine gun barrels. And they recommended switching to it for m-16 barrels
In addition to longevity, it was smoother (less fouling), and in many cases more accurate than production button rifling alternatives. And accuracy did not degrade as fast.
This was specifically for Steyr process chf. Not all processes are the same.
I was present for the KaBooming of an StG57 about ten years ago. That was an unhappy occurrence.
Yes, handloads. Not saying they were bad but they had already been fired once through the fluted chamber. I gather that's a no-no.... or at least since that day I have felt that it may be.
I know very little about the stg57. But do reload extensively for mil autoloaders, many with fluted chambers.
Far more likely to have seating depth induced pressure than case failure from reloading after shooting in a fluted chamber. And even if you did have a case wall split, it'd be very obvious and not likely to exceed pressure limits. Could still be ugly though.
Jam the bullet in the lands? Huge pressure spike. Partial powder charge? Can have SEE with huge spikes depending on the powder used. Squib load, the normal? Spikes. Etc.
Again, no data on the specific rifle or incident. Just stating there are many more likely reloading kaboom causes.
Thanks for sharing Doc.
I like blondes and brunettes as long as they have.......well you know.
I like Redheads..... ;)
@docsherm - Thank you for sharing your opinion and experience with us. It is appreciated.
You mentioned that the MK18 uses a CHF barrel now? I thought it was a standard Colt 10.3". Is there another supplier, or is Colt making CHF barrels for the military?
To the best of my knowledge Colt never made any Mk18s. The only Colts I have seen were some M4s cut down by NSW. The first Mk18 mod 0 was a 10.5" LMT and the Mod 1 is a DD CHF 10.3. They were all put on existing Colt M4 lowers. When I got mine issued it came as just the upper.
ClearedHot
09-08-16, 15:59
To the best of my knowledge Colt never made any Mk18s. The only Colts I have seen were some M4s cut down by NSW. The first Mk18 mod 0 was a 10.5" LMT and the Mod 1 is a DD CHF 10.3. They were all put on existing Colt M4 lowers. When I got mine issued it came as just the upper.
Just curious, did you actually see LMT 10.5" uppers on issued Mk18 Mod 0's? Knowledgeable guys like Scottryan have always said that was never actually a thing; And there hasn't been any pics of LMT uppers on Mk18 Mod 0's in the wild to suggest otherwise.
Just curious, did you actually see LMT 10.5" uppers on issued Mk18 Mod 0's? Knowledgeable guys like Scottryan have always said that was never actually a thing; And there hasn't been any pics of LMT uppers on Mk18 Mod 0's in the wild to suggest otherwise.
I HAD a LMT MOD 0 back in 2006-7 time frame. They do exist.......
Knowledgeable guys like Scottryan
You can't be serious. That is a parallel universe paradox.
Serious Account
09-09-16, 12:01
Looks like it's official.
http://www.journallessentinelles.com/101-000-h-k-pour-l-armee-francaise-82245
RAM Engineer
09-10-16, 21:10
@docsherm - Thank you for sharing your opinion and experience with us. It is appreciated.
You mentioned that the MK18 uses a CHF barrel now? I thought it was a standard Colt 10.3". Is there another supplier, or is Colt making CHF barrels for the military?
I'm interested to know the story on this too.
I'm interested to know the story on this too.
He answered that already.
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