View Full Version : Looking for a Stiff/Rigid free float rail
Im looking for thoughts on a rigid/stiff mounted free float rail. Ideally 10" KeyMod but that's not a deal breaker to mount a IR laser to. Weight is always a concern but I have noticed recently that the newer light keymod rails have a lot of flex on them and for an aiming device I would like something with a bit less deflection.
Thoughts?
I have two geissele rails and they are very rigid. You'd have to pick up a keymod rail on the EE since last I looked the new rails were only in mlok.
The most rigid rail I know of is the Hodge/Mega wedgelock.
Vegasshooter
09-04-16, 22:42
I'm running a Geiselle on one of mine. It is M-Lok, but very stiff. I would definately trust it with anything. They are built in such a way as they extend a tiny bit onto the upper receiver and have Allen screws on each side that lock the rail in place against the upper. Super secure and rigid.
Probably the Geissele MLOK rail. It's pretty rigid and bomb proof.
bulldozer3
09-04-16, 23:59
To hop in here... any opinion on the SLR Ion ultralight mlok? Similar desires, would be going on a DD m4v7 lw and used with a bipod
Some deflection testing has been done on a few popular hand guards for these purposes, and the Wedge Lock had the least deflection of the ones tested.
You might consider the KAC URX4 10".
To hop in here... any opinion on the SLR Ion ultralight mlok? Similar desires, would be going on a DD m4v7 lw and used with a bipod
I have a friend with a 14.5" pinned upper with that rail. It is very solid, and a quality rail, but I would still prefer the Geissele rail specifically dealing with rail flex that would impact POI with a laser.
Probably the Geissele MLOK rail. It's pretty rigid and bomb proof.
Agreed, and
I have a few of the new lightweight models and I have noticed how hot they get very quickly. Just another drawback vs the Geissele MLOK or other such more stout systems.
PB
Geissele if you don't mind the weight, KMR if you do.
BoringGuy45
09-05-16, 21:56
Agreed, and
I have a few of the new lightweight models and I have noticed how hot they get very quickly. Just another drawback vs the Geissele MLOK or other such more stout systems.
PB
Which models in particular?
Which models in particular?
I have a Noveske , which I like and a KMR , which I like. But they heat up under heavy fire.
PB
BoringGuy45
09-05-16, 22:16
I have a Noveske , which I like and a KMR , which I like. But they heat up under heavy fire.
PB
Hmmm...
Something to think about. I was about to pull the trigger on an SLR Ion MLOK Lite 10.7" rail for my 12.5" SBR build. But it looks similar to the ones you have, and heat is one of the things I was taking into consideration. I like the 10.7" length for a 12.5" barrel over a 9.5" rail though. I dunno at this point.
556BlackRifle
09-06-16, 02:27
Another vote for Geissele SMR. Currently only available in M-Lok but you may find a used or NOS keymod if you look hard enough.
The DD LITE III is built like a tank and is as rigid as a rail can get. Bolt up system is very robust. Steel barrel nut. Also, the rail is fairly slim for a quad rail. The 12" rail weighs right at 13 oz.
You might consider the KAC URX4 10".
I would like to know how the URX 4 stacks up against the other quality rails on the market. in reference to its unique mounting system and I would like to know how its weight compares
lennyo3034
09-20-16, 13:49
Some deflection testing has been done on a few popular hand guards for these purposes, and the Wedge Lock had the least deflection of the ones tested.
Do you have a link to the test? I'd be curious to see.
Do you have a link to the test? I'd be curious to see.
Indeed!
You might consider the KAC URX4 10".
I like my URX4, but the Geissele rails are super sturdy. They are noticeably heavier, but feel incredibly solid.
Some deflection testing has been done on a few popular hand guards for these purposes, and the Wedge Lock had the least deflection of the ones tested.
I don't care about seeing the testing, only if the Geissele rails were in the test.
JK, I don't actually care b/c I can actually buy the Geissele rail I want. Hodge 11.5 is vaporware anyway...
Stiffest design I know of is made by Barnes Precision Machine.
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I don't care about seeing the testing, only if the Geissele rails were in the test.
JK, I don't actually care b/c I can actually buy the Geissele rail I want. Hodge 11.5 is vaporware anyway...
The Hodge 11.5 rail is currently in stock below and for those interested in them, word has it we will probably see complete barreled uppers in October or November. Their stock of Hodge 13.5 inch rails sold out in one day. Also, smaller Hodge/SLR micro type gas blocks works best with these rails so you have no rail to gas block clearance issues.
http://www.weaponoutfitters.com/rifle-parts-components/ar-15-upper-receiver/handguards-rail-systems/hodge-defense-systems-wedge-lock-rail-system-11-5.html
Thanks yeah I grabbed one yesterday. Thought it was funny they came out the same day I said it would never happen.
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The Hodge 11.5 rail is currently in stock below and for those interested in them, word has it we will probably see complete barreled uppers in October or November. Their stock of Hodge 13.5 inch rails sold out in one day. Also, the Hodge/SLR micro gas block works best with these rails.
http://www.weaponoutfitters.com/rifle-parts-components/ar-15-upper-receiver/handguards-rail-systems/hodge-defense-systems-wedge-lock-rail-system-11-5.html
URX4 MLOK or Hodge. Decisions, decisions...
I would get the wedge lock simply b/c it's likely stronger and weight isn't significantly more.
Also if you don't get the wedgelock while it's in stock, who knows when they will come back if the length you're wanting only comes in the Hodge version and not mega.
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I don't care about seeing the testing, only if the Geissele rails were in the test.
JK, I don't actually care b/c I can actually buy the Geissele rail I want. Hodge 11.5 is vaporware anyway...
I am willing to bet the G rails were in the testing...just a hunch.
Probably since there are definitely pics of rifles on magpuls site with geissele MLok rails
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Any link to this test?
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I'm guessing it was internal magpul testing and they're not going to publish results
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I'm guessing it was internal magpul testing and they're not going to publish results
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Well that stinks, but I can understand they want to stay neutral.
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Just ordered an 11.5" Hodge. Hoping to have it installed in the next couple of weeks. I'll report back with a review.
Anybody have any experience with the new V7 Enlightened Handguards in Aluminum-Lithium alloy? They claim it's more rigid than 7075 and more corrosion resistant than 6061.
Anybody have any experience with the new V7 Enlightened Handguards in Aluminum-Lithium alloy? They claim it's more rigid than 7075 and more corrosion resistant than 6061.
I do not have experience with them, but the geometry and design of a handguard as well as the attachment system is likely to have more advantage than 2055 ALLI over 7075, due to elasticity modulus superiority of the 2055 T-84 being roughly 6-8% greater than 7075 T-651.
Anybody have any experience with the new V7 Enlightened Handguards in Aluminum-Lithium alloy? They claim it's more rigid than 7075 and more corrosion resistant than 6061.
I have one of the 15" rails. The rail itself is very solid. I still hate the NSR style mounting system though (timing those things always sucks).
Anyone with first hand experience with the Hodge wedge lock handguards?
I am contemplating one for a SBR build or a SLR solo lite.
So hodge wedge lock or SLR solo lite in 10.75"?
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I have one of the 15" rails. The rail itself is very solid. I still hate the NSR style mounting system though (timing those things always sucks).
The NSR mounting system is one of the most superior systems on the market.
The barrel nut is long. It doesn't allow the rail to squirm around on the nut. It also had a mechanical fastener connection between rail and barrel nut.
Just about every rail that pinches a barrel nut and uses friction to stay there is a piece of shit.
I don't know about all rails that squeeze the barrel nuts are a POS. That's most of the rails in the market.
The NSR mounting system is one of the most superior systems on the market.
The barrel nut is long. It doesn't allow the rail to squirm around on the nut. It also had a mechanical fastener connection between rail and barrel nut.
Just about every rail that pinches a barrel nut and uses friction to stay there is a piece of shit.
This isn't what empirical data suggests.
Anyone with first hand experience with the Hodge wedge lock handguards?
I am contemplating one for a SBR build or a SLR solo lite.
So hodge wedge lock or SLR solo lite in 10.75"?
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I've installed a few. What would you like to know?
I've installed a few. What would you like to know?
Are they worth the money? I'm looking to build a 11.5 SBR and wanting to get a high quality rail with a secure locking mechanism. If Geissele made a 10.75 I would go with them as I really like my 13" MK-1 but they don't
The Hodge rails are expensive as heck but this build will be my last for a long time.
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Are they worth the money? I'm looking to build a 11.5 SBR and wanting to get a high quality rail with a secure locking mechanism. If Geissele made a 10.75 I would go with them as I really like my 13" MK-1 but they don't
The Hodge rails are expensive as heck but this build will be my last for a long time.
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That's very subjective. Magpul moe works fine...but...
Are the hodge rails ergonomic? Yes. I like how the balance a weapon and how they feel when holding the weapon.
Are they well made? Yes, they are dimensionally very accurate regarding run out of the top rail and barrel nut fit. It is a very close slip fit.
Are they secure? Yes. Rock solid.
I am personally a fan of them, and view them as worth the money. However, you need to take into account that a very lo pro gas block is needed. The hodge defense model from SLR is best. Barring that, Daniel defense will work.
As always though, quantifying "worth the money" is very personal.
Yea i should have used worth the money aspect. More looking for quality and gonna hold up to abuse as this will be my do all rifle.
I was planning on a SLR sentry 6 or 7 gas block.
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Yea i should have used worth the money aspect. More looking for quality and gonna hold up to abuse as this will be my do all rifle.
I was planning on a SLR sentry 6 or 7 gas block.
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I am unsure about that gas blocks size and thus clearance. As far as durability, yes, the rail is very solid both in design, material, and attachment.
This isn't what empirical data suggests.
And what did I say that is wrong ?
I don't know about all rails that squeeze the barrel nuts are a POS. That's most of the rails in the market.
When I grab the rail in one hand and the muzzle in the other and move them in different directions and they don't pop back to concentric, the rail is sliding on the barrel nut.
Nobody wants to talk about this on the internet but it is a fact.
When I grab the rail in one hand and the muzzle in the other and move them in different directions and they don't pop back to concentric, the rail is sliding on the barrel nut.
Nobody wants to talk about this on the internet but it is a fact.
I'm happy to talk about it...show us? I highly doubt that you're able to do this with the Wedgelock system.
I'm happy to talk about it...show us? I highly doubt that you're able to do this with the Wedgelock system.
I have never tried it with the wedge lock system.
The only rails that I know that will pop back to center are KAC, DD, Larue, and Noveske NSR. These are also the only rails I will install on my projects. There might be others that are good but I haven't tried them.
Incase anyone is wondering, according to Hodge, a Syrac adjustable gas block will not fit.
Back to the URX4 for me.
wouldn't a 10" geiselle mk1 be tough to beat?
I have never tried it with the wedge lock system.
The only rails that I know that will pop back to center are KAC, DD, Larue, and Noveske NSR. These are also the only rails I will install on my projects. There might be others that are good but I haven't tried them.
What do you mean by "pop back to center"?
Are you compressing the barrel and tube against each other or away from each other to the 9 and/or 3 o-clock positions, or are you saying you are twisting them against each other clock and counter-clock-wise, or what? I am a bit confused by what you mean.
What do you mean by "pop back to center"?
Are you compressing the barrel and tube against each other or away from each other to the 9 and/or 3 o-clock positions, or are you saying you are twisting them against each other clock and counter-clock-wise, or what? I am a bit confused by what you mean.
I grab the end of the rail in one hand, and I grab the flash hider in the other and I pull them in opposite linear directions. A lesser rail will have the barrel not centered in the rail after I do this.
Sometimes I can do this with as little as hand pressure by squeezing the end of the barrel and rail with my hand.
I have done this with a 15" KMR (Maganese/Aluminum), Samson, Midwest Industries, and Armalite keymod rails. Shorter KMRs I can't seem to get enough leverage on them to be able to do this. I haven't tried a KMR Alpha 15" yet. The Armalite and Samson in particular were the worst.
Hey guys...hope all is well with all of you. I want to address rail and barrel deflection. First off in my observations, rail and barrel deflection can come from various sources. What is deflection, to me it's when a constant load is being placed on the rail, and how much it moves under a load. Why is deflection important to you....to me, it's in the use of aiming devices such as lasers etc. What causes deflection....here is where it gets sketchy....so your results may vary.
Type of fitment of rail onto barrel nut.
Type of barrel nut and how long, and how much bearing surface it has to the rail.
Upper receiver, how tight the barrel extension goes into the upper, concentricy of face of upper, threads, torque value, heat, demential mass in the upper, etc...can be variables.
Type of fitment between the lower and upper.
Basically if one were to test the "flexibility" in a rail not attached to a barrel/upper, you would not likely see much flexibility to make any real difference.
If you see barrel deflection under a rail load, it's the upper flexing via the threads the nut is attached to.
You have to ask yourself, what is important to you in the way you use your carbine, and how much difference does it really make? Not everyone runs lasers, not everyone loads a bipod, and will a sling and or a barricade effect you enough in a dynamic environment.
I have tested mine, as well as others, we did great, but yet there are others out there who did great as well.
There is no standardized testing that I know about... so yet another variable ��
DD, Geissele, KAC... I've used them all, and all with good results.
Cheers, Jim Hodge
To add...
When considering deflection, you would also need to consider, accuracy of your rifle, and accuracy of your ammunition, on a lower, with shooter in the loop.
Jim
I grab the end of the rail in one hand, and I grab the flash hider in the other and I pull them in opposite linear directions. A lesser rail will have the barrel not centered in the rail after I do this.
Sometimes I can do this with as little as hand pressure by squeezing the end of the barrel and rail with my hand.
I have done this with a 15" KMR (Maganese/Aluminum), Samson, Midwest Industries, and Armalite keymod rails. Shorter KMRs I can't seem to get enough leverage on them to be able to do this. I haven't tried a KMR Alpha 15" yet. The Armalite and Samson in particular were the worst.
Funny, when I was trying to see if I could subjectively feel a difference in my various rails' flexibility (and thus rigidity/mounting system) the other day I decided that this wasn't a good way to test since the barrel flexed more than the rails did, and they all returned to center/concentric (KMR 13, KMR-A 15, URX4 14.5, and V7 Enlightened 15).
Grabbing the rail at the mounting point and applying pressure at the end to try and deflect it is a better way, but the SNR was too low to really conclude anything.
In order to evaluate my own rails, I held the ARs in firing position and applied 3:00 and 9:00 pressure at the end of the rail while co-witnessing an Aimpoint dot and BUIS. I also attached a visible laser to the end of the rail and visualized the relationship of the Aimpoint and laser dots.
On the original KMR it was very easy for me to move the Aimpoint dot completely off the FSP.
The NSR and Troy Alpha performed about equally. They were both significantly stiffer than the KMR, but I could still get some movement in the dot in relation to the rail if I applied a lot of force. I was not however able to move the dot completely off the FSP.
On the Daniel Defense Lite/M4 and Geissele SMR rails I could not induce any noticeable shift.
As others have inferred, it is all cost/benefit. The KMR is great on a build where your objectives are to minimize weight, get your support hand out as far as possible for ergonomic purposes, prevent the barrel or fsp from burning you, and hang a sling. It is very comfortable to shoot with, and the weight savings is noticeable. It is not, however, probably the best choice if you really need an IR laser or BUIS to hold zero if the rail is loaded whether by a barricade, bipod, sling, or heavy manual pressure. I also have less faith in its ability to hold zero without cross-checking and periodic adjustment in the long-term.
I do however have a great deal of faith in the Geissele SMR or Daniel Defense Lite rails to maintain the information of the zero indefinitely with something like stowed MBUS Pros, but that comes at a cost of 4-5 ounces. Whether that cost is worth paying is personal and relative to application.
The barrel nut on the KMR is too short. It should be twice as long.
Look at a NSR or Giessele barrel nut. Bill Giessele even talks about this in one of his internet videos.
The barrel nut on the KMR is too short. It should be twice as long.
Look at a NSR or Giessele barrel nut. Bill Giessele even talks about this in one of his internet videos.
I believe the Wedgelock barrel nut is at least as long as the Geissele, but don't have the specifics in front of me.
Does anyone know of an adjustable gas block that would work with the Hodge rail?
Does anyone know of an adjustable gas block that would work with the Hodge rail?
You could also go the adjustable BCG route. I tested my 2A Armament RBC this weekend and found it very easy to use. It also opened up operating spaces that I wasn't able to get using the SLR Sentry block I had on there before.
GunFighter98
09-26-16, 22:15
Definitely Daniel Defense or Geissele. ScottyRyan is correct with other brands not being very strong designs despite a lot of support on this forum. I have had personal experience with a couple of the most popularly recommended that have progressively bent and shifted. This is especially noticeable if you actually use buis or fixed irons at the end of your rail.
Definitely Daniel Defense or Geissele. ScottyRyan is correct with other brands not being very strong designs despite a lot of support on this forum. I have had personal experience with a couple of the most popularly recommended that have progressively bent and shifted. This is especially noticeable if you actually use buis or fixed irons at the end of your rail.
Please elaborate.
GunFighter98
09-26-16, 23:21
I am not going to name any specific manufacturers. I was in contact with them both and they have had amazing customer service and I will continue to support them, however, there are better products available. Essentially I was experiencing zero shifts due to shifting on the barrel nut as well as the rail itself becoming warped. This was causing the windage on my rear sights to be nearly maxed out. A bubble level placed on various locations on the rail clearly showed it was not linear throughout the length of the rail.
I am not going to name any specific manufacturers. I was in contact with them both and they have had amazing customer service and I will continue to support them, however, there are better products available. Essentially I was experiencing zero shifts due to shifting on the barrel nut as well as the rail itself becoming warped. This was causing the windage on my rear sights to be nearly maxed out. A bubble level placed on various locations on the rail clearly showed it was not linear throughout the length of the rail.
Why not?
Were these aberrations due to "normal" use, or from dropping rifles from 30 feet, etc.?
I am not going to name any specific manufacturers. I was in contact with them both and they have had amazing customer service and I will continue to support them, however, there are better products available. Essentially I was experiencing zero shifts due to shifting on the barrel nut as well as the rail itself becoming warped. This was causing the windage on my rear sights to be nearly maxed out. A bubble level placed on various locations on the rail clearly showed it was not linear throughout the length of the rail.
If it's true, it's not slander. You're sharing information, not saying "X product is crap and I hate them". By the way, the Geissele just squeezes the barrel nut, as well...
Im looking for thoughts on a rigid/stiff mounted free float rail. Ideally 10" KeyMod but that's not a deal breaker to mount a IR laser to. Weight is always a concern but I have noticed recently that the newer light keymod rails have a lot of flex on them and for an aiming device I would like something with a bit less deflection.
Thoughts?
My 2 cents:
One of the downsides to Keymod systems is that often they are very thin-walled. While I don't have the ability to post the report, Crane has found that M-LOK had far superior recoil shear lugs and zero retention characteristics. I'm not saying that's the end all be all system, but I would offer it as an alternative.
I have seen rail deflection tests first-hand, and noted that two rail designs did notably better than the others - what I have seen didn't quite match the data seen by another in this thread, but that's okay. Naturally, a barrel nut with longer bearing surface to distribute the load will do better than a design without.
So, rigidity is a concern, but I'd also ask what other requirements you have. For the purposes of this post, I'm assuming a 13" rail with M-LOK mounting points. If the utmost in weight reduction is within your criteria, a Geissele Mk8 gets a nod. If you have a billet upper, and don't mind drilling for the anti-rotational pin, Mega is a solid option (unless you have a Mega upper already, which works nicely). If field stripping includes taking the rail off with no intermediary parts to worry about, Geissele systems are a STRONG choice (very similar to HK rails in this regard. This can be important if you are working near salt water and high humidity).
Here's my personal reasoning:
1. I prefer Geissele rail systems above the others.
2. They have proven to have a great blend of high strength to minimal weight
3. The aluminum barrel nut works as a *fantastic* heat sink, but if I need that much more rigidity, a steel barrel nut is an option (heats up hand guard slower, stays hot longer, but the aluminum nut pulls heat from the chamber faster. That feature wasn't an engineering accident.)
4. Installation is faster than any rail I know of. I've installed a barrel (with a pre-drilled gas block on a barrel. Just popped the barrel nut on, popped the gas block on and smacked that pin in) and rail inside 5 minutes. DD RIS IIs for instance take about 20-23 minutes.
5. On the rare occasion I have to strip a rail to brush off mud on the barrel, and spray with hot/soapy water after salt water exposure, its easy, extremely fast, and does retain zero upon re-installation. If I were to mass-issue a rail, it would be a G-variant with an eye toward this feature.
6. I believe 6061 is the right metal for the application. Honestly, the strength gained from going to a 7075 extrusion I see as nominal. A forging may yield a larger gain, but 7075 is harder to work with, as it likes to bow/warp due to stresses inherent to the metal (what gives it its strength).
7. Anti rotation features don't limit me on upper receiver choice as much (Geissele systems don't work on all billet receivers. Nature of the beast), as I normally use Colt, BCM or DD forged uppers anyways. I don't want to have to drill any extra holes in the thing.
8. I have greater flexibility with gas blocks than some other rails with smaller ID
9. The ID of Geissele or ALG rails are as narrow as I really want to go. Any thinner, and the hand guard heats up significantly faster - more space is good for air flow!!
10. I can't speak for every manufacturer because I don't know someone personally at all of them - but what I will say is Bill Geissele (and family/crew) is one of the most moral, straightforward and nicest people I have ever met. He refuses to cut corners in an industry where very few will actually know the difference, and I know the product will always be strongly supported. He does not do business by seeking friends or contacts in high-level positions, but instead opts to just make the best product he can and let it stand on its own merits. I contend his only fault is that he isn't hurrying the hell up to start machining improved F-14 Super Tomcats for the next world war.:(
Hope this helps, Sir!
S/F
If it's true, it's not slander. You're sharing information, not saying "X product is crap and I hate them". By the way, the Geissele just squeezes the barrel nut, as well...
But the barrel nut is one of the longest in the industry. It also has two bolts that pass through two slots cut in the barrel nut.
The Barnes Precision handguard were designed around this very principal to be rigid enough for sighting systems to stay consistent. They use the longest barrel nut in the industry and are built solid.
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In this thread, it is obvious who has extensive experience building guns and who doesn't.
This issue we are discussing had been a known phenomena for 10 years with various rails.
In the past 5 years I could forsee this exploding into a huge issue when everyone was making rails that pinch a short barrel nut and have a slit where two screws hold the rail on by friction.
Now here we are.
But the barrel nut is one of the longest in the industry. It also has two bolts that pass through two slots cut in the barrel nut.
But you're knocking one of the longest barrel nuts in the industry, that uses a wedge to clamp down on said barrel nut, and that has a slip-fit with the hand-guard. I would like to see evidence that the Wedgelock system has an issue before you bash it.
But you're knocking one of the longest barrel nuts in the industry, that uses a wedge to clamp down on said barrel nut, and that has a slip-fit with the hand-guard. I would like to see evidence that the Wedgelock system has an issue before you bash it.
I never criticized the wedge lock specifically. I was taking about clamp on systems in general.
The thread title is about stiff rails. Not about the wedge lock.
I never criticized the wedge lock specifically. I was taking about clamp on systems in general.
The thread title is about stiff rails. Not about the wedge lock.
That's fine, but your comment came after it was mentioned. Of course, I think that's all coincidence, but I would like to know more about your opinion of it after you handle one. Update us if you do?
Has anyone shaved an FSB to fit under a hodge or cmr? How frustrating is it going to be?
Has anyone shaved an FSB to fit under a hodge or cmr? How frustrating is it going to be?
I've done one for a friend under a CMR
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If the barrel nut plays such a large role in rigidity, then surely the Knight's URX4 would be a top contender since the whole damn thing is the barrel nut.
bowman57_2
10-03-16, 15:48
If the barrel nut plays such a large role in rigidity, then surely the Knight's URX4 would be a top contender since the whole damn thing is the barrel nut.
Ive been thinking the same thing forever.
So I was looking to replace my Odin Works handguard with one of the new BCM KMR-A handguards. But after reading some of the posts it seems like you guys don't have a lot of faith in the KMR rails? Everything I had read up until just now said the KMR had the best mounting system in the business. I'm not super hard on my guns, but I do expect them to hold up and shoot when I ask them to, so I want good reliable products on them. That being said will the KMR work for me? Thanks
Ben
So I was looking to replace my Odin Works handguard with one of the new BCM KMR-A handguards. But after reading some of the posts it seems like you guys don't have a lot of faith in the KMR rails? Everything I had read up until just now said the KMR had the best mounting system in the business. I'm not super hard on my guns, but I do expect them to hold up and shoot when I ask them to, so I want good reliable products on them. That being said will the KMR work for me? Thanks
Ben
The KMR-A will work perfectly for you.
The KMR-A will work perfectly for you.
Thank you!
Ben
jerrysimons
10-04-16, 10:16
How did I miss this thread?
Thanks texasjim and m4guru for the info!
Yes, wedge lock is stout. I have no doubt it is the strongest rail attachment method on the market coupled with ease of installation. No timing required. The wedges are a thing of beauty to install. You are putting (figurative?) tons of pressure on the barrel nut with finger force. Seriously. No reason to poo poo a friction lock. texasjim told me, when by happen stance I met him with his Mod 2, that the rail would suspend a cars weight. Salesmanny I know but impressive nontheless 😉 The rigidity of the rail itself is high being made of 7075 t6. I don't even know of another rail that is (we are not even taking about the aluminum lithium version only the hush hush guys are running around with so far. Incidently V7WS has an AlLi rail). Secondly the wedge lock rail profile is thick! Which is part of the reason for gas block compatibility issues. I am in the process of documenting low pro gas block fittment for both the MEGA wedge lock and the Hodge Defense wedge lock rails as well as differences between the two versions.
I have no doubt the wedge lock design is at the top of the food chain in rail strength but it is also extremely ergonomic. The scalloped and radiused 10:30 and 1:30 faces feel amazing to hold in the hand coupled with a slim outer diameter.
How did I miss this thread?
Thanks texasjim and m4guru for the info!
Yes, wedge lock is stout. I have no doubt it is the strongest rail attachment method on the market coupled with ease of installation. No timing required. The wedges are a thing of beauty to install. You are putting (figurative?) tons of pressure on the barrel nut with finger force. Seriously. No reason to poo poo a friction lock. texasjim told me, when by happen stance I met him with his Mod 2, that the rail would suspend a cars weight. Salesmanny I know but impressive nontheless [emoji6] The rigidity of the rail itself is high being made of 7075 t6. I don't even know of another rail that is (we are not even taking about the aluminum lithium version only the hush hush guys are running around with so far. Incidently V7WS has an AlLi rail). Secondly the wedge lock rail profile is thick! Which is part of the reason for gas block compatibility issues. I am in the process of documenting low pro gas block fittment for both the MEGA wedge lock and the Hodge Defense wedge lock rails as well as differences between the two versions.
I have no doubt the wedge lock design is at the top of the food chain in rail strength but it is also extremely ergonomic. The scalloped and radiused 10:30 and 1:30 faces feel amazing to hold in the hand coupled with a slim outer diameter.
Careful buddy...you're going to talk me into keeping it
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jerrysimons
10-04-16, 10:26
So I was looking to replace my Odin Works handguard with one of the new BCM KMR-A handguards. But after reading some of the posts it seems like you guys don't have a lot of faith in the KMR rails? Everything I had read up until just now said the KMR had the best mounting system in the business. I'm not super hard on my guns, but I do expect them to hold up and shoot when I ask them to, so I want good reliable products on them. That being said will the KMR work for me? Thanks
Ben
Hugh fan of the KMR here and yes the mounting system is genius. The KMR and KMR-A rails are good to go. They are not quite in the bomb proof category that the Wedge Lock rails are in but the wedge lock rails achieve that at the cost of weight. KMR is still at the top of the market in terms of design and strength but it is of the more standard 6061 t6 aluminum category for the KMR-A and has a less thick profile with a shorter barrel nut. Wedge lock is almost in a category of its own to all other rails.
jerrysimons
10-04-16, 10:27
Careful buddy...you're going to talk me into keeping it
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Wait for the AlLi version ;)
Wait for the AlLi version ;)
I just want to know if the hodge rail will work with a SLR sentry adjustable gas block?
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jerrysimons
10-04-16, 13:24
I just want to know if the hodge rail will work with a SLR sentry adjustable gas block?
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Initial short answer is no. Syrac Gen 2 seems like it fits under the MEGA Wedge Lock rail. Still working on the long answer. Will probably make a separate thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?189184-Centurion-12-5-quot-Suppressed-Adjustable-Block
Initial short answer is no. Syrac Gen 2 seems like it fits under the MEGA Wedge Lock rail. Still working on the long answer. Will probably make a separate thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?189184-Centurion-12-5-quot-Suppressed-Adjustable-Block
Alright thanks. Gonna have to change up my build list now. Grrr
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Alright thanks. Gonna have to change up my build list now. Grrr
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You could always go with a standard gas block and adjustable carrier instead.
Wait for the AlLi version ;)
I am not sure if there will be an AlLi version of the rail.
You could always go with a standard gas block and adjustable carrier instead.
Or just use a barrel that's not overgassed...
Or just use a barrel that's not overgassed...
I think 99% of barrels on the market are technically over-gassed.
I think 99% of barrels on the market are technically over-gassed.
Well, a good place to start currently in the 14.5" middy market is DD and BCM. BCM also seems to make a pretty spot-on 16.1" barrel, although I think DD's 16'1" barrel might be a tiny bit over-gassed. For a 16.1" middy, I'd look for a 0.071-0.073 port, and for a 14.5" middy, I'd look for 0.074-0.076".
jerrysimons
10-06-16, 15:19
From this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?189184-Centurion-12-5-quot-Suppressed-Adjustable-Block
MEGA 9" rail on a 10.5" barrel mocked up. I just test fitted both SLR Riflework's Sentry 7 and a Syrac Ordinance's Gen 2 adjustable gas blocks. The Syrac fits inside the rail ALL DAY. The SLR Rifleworks clears the rail but only by a hair less than a millimeter where the screw holds the leaf spring in place. It clears but it is too close for comfort with barrel whip and rail flex factored. Now you could clearance either the rail or the face of the screw on the GB or both and it would be fine but that is custom fitting and maybe a little bit jerry rigging. For sure the first MLOK slot on the leaf spring side of the rail would not be usable with the SLR Sentry 7 as the carbine length gas with 9.31" OAL rail puts the GB right under the first MLOK slot (Hodge Defense rails have one slot, MEGAs have two).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/3C97BEBA-2F83-4A1F-9C2A-AAFF87A5AF53_zps54xi4zl1.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/3C97BEBA-2F83-4A1F-9C2A-AAFF87A5AF53_zps54xi4zl1.jpg.html)
Syrac Gen 2
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/283EE923-D37C-4C68-8D0A-C3168CD8E5FD_zpsplzqfw9m.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/283EE923-D37C-4C68-8D0A-C3168CD8E5FD_zpsplzqfw9m.jpg.html)
SLR Rifleworks Sentry 7
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/5EAB9198-4A5B-4422-8FD4-7ECCEDADFE26_zpsya8lgjmm.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/5EAB9198-4A5B-4422-8FD4-7ECCEDADFE26_zpsya8lgjmm.jpg.html)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/1B33A9D3-DDF6-467F-943B-B4B1FF1E0215_zpsajti2olu.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1B33A9D3-DDF6-467F-943B-B4B1FF1E0215_zpsajti2olu.jpg.html)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/21F8ADB0-0FCF-4A1B-95D2-4D39873864B4_zpsdohx74mm.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/21F8ADB0-0FCF-4A1B-95D2-4D39873864B4_zpsdohx74mm.jpg.html)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/939DB44F-73C5-4D83-99D8-FE0348307F78_zps60lfpb7p.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/939DB44F-73C5-4D83-99D8-FE0348307F78_zps60lfpb7p.jpg.html)
The first MLOK slots on the end of the 9.3" rail are directly over the carbine length gas block placement. The size of the Syrac Gen 2 gas block, even though it clears the rail internally enough for use, renders some of the MLOK slots unusable. I only checked MLOK function with the Syrac Gen 2 because it cleared better under the rail then the SLR Sentry 7 did (see pics above). The SLR Sentry 7 adjustable would likely be worse since it didn't clear as well. I used Arisaka Defense MLOK attachments because they rock!
Pics:
10:30 clears
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/88767361-7BF9-4D1E-9326-6C61CC8B57C9_zpsp1ldbhrn.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/88767361-7BF9-4D1E-9326-6C61CC8B57C9_zpsp1ldbhrn.jpg.html)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/EE69920D-7AD6-49CA-A590-D5EAF6E46459_zpsjh51fqh3.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/EE69920D-7AD6-49CA-A590-D5EAF6E46459_zpsjh51fqh3.jpg.html)
9:00 clears but it is close, screws might need to be shortened
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/EE1AF4CC-7D7C-408B-853C-90D07509F018_zpsgu6lph4q.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/EE1AF4CC-7D7C-408B-853C-90D07509F018_zpsgu6lph4q.jpg.html)
6:00 does not clear anything not even a Magpul MLOK panel
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/0741DD1D-7F98-4D18-A40C-B8DC108EFB4B_zpsn7zmexdo.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/0741DD1D-7F98-4D18-A40C-B8DC108EFB4B_zpsn7zmexdo.jpg.html)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/89E27096-863A-413E-9398-C8C1E7B16024_zpst1drcxhu.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/89E27096-863A-413E-9398-C8C1E7B16024_zpst1drcxhu.jpg.html)
3:00 does not clear, not with out cuting the screws down a little that is. The upper is only mocked up. The barrel might be leaning a little or the outer dimension of the GB are not concentric with the inner (read thicker on one side).
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/B20457C5-5475-4B41-9AAD-F50C1BE2DC80_zpsripd2tig.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/B20457C5-5475-4B41-9AAD-F50C1BE2DC80_zpsripd2tig.jpg.html)
1:30 clears
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/A42B84CC-5CCC-4497-B126-14005D76E4D0_zpshxczhvr8.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/A42B84CC-5CCC-4497-B126-14005D76E4D0_zpshxczhvr8.jpg.html)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/accidentprone86/Mobile%20Uploads/B47ECC5A-0403-49B2-9BA4-D9BCFF553151_zpsoylknpkd.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/accidentprone86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/B47ECC5A-0403-49B2-9BA4-D9BCFF553151_zpsoylknpkd.jpg.html)
This damn rail is thin! In the pic with my KAC CQB showing the over hang of the Arisaka Defense inline ring mount past the rail, well the part over hanging on the light mount is actually below the outer diameter of the silencer! Good thing there is a little gap between the end of barrel and the end of rail. The Hodge Defense 10.75" rail with a 11.5" barrel might have some issues here depending on the "[non]issued" silencer and the particular attachment.
I have a SLR GB7 gasblock coming. I will do further testing to see if the GB7 gasblock will work better underneath the MLOK slots. The 6 o'clock was really tight with the Syrac the GB7 is going to have to be real short to work!
I know, sort of a necro here... Almost a year out. But I love the collection of relevant info.
So far, folks in this thread have said the Geissele, DD, Wedgelock, Larue, Noveske, and KAC are good to go for mounting IR lasers and not shifting. One person commented that the shorter KMR-As don't get enough leverage to shift, though the longer ones do flex too much.
What about two new rails on the market? Anybody have hands-on to see how rigid they are?
1. The new DD MFR M-Lok. It's incredibly lightweight. But appears to use a similar mounting system, with a potentially shorter barrel nut. I can't really tell from just reading the online manual.
2. The Griffin Armament "Low-Pro RIGID™ rails" claim to be designed specifically to remain rigid for IR laser mounting. They have a crazy long barrel nut and reinforcing ridges inside. Yet they are also exceptionally lightweight, though not as light as the new DD rail.
Barnes Precision Machine makes the stiffest I know of. It was actually designed around use of laser aiming and illumination systems
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What kind of weight are we looking at with the BPM rail? They seem to be the only manufacturer that doesn't list it.
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