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View Full Version : So-called Inferior Choices



MX5
09-06-08, 15:10
Understand right from the start that I'm not bashing or defending any particular manufacturer of weapons, parts, ammo or lube; just making first hand observations. Make no mistake, I prefer top grade parts & equipment, recommend same whenever possible & trust my life to Tier 1 products.

Out of various Noveske, Colt, Rock River & Armalite ARs I use, there are two guns that I built for the express purpose of testing various parts & components to see how well they fair under moderate to hard use. These two ARs are relegated to practice & training purposes only. They were built using a mix of quality parts & parts from manufacturers that many would say are less than ideal, inferior or substandard. I'm not going to enter into that argument. All parts are readily available from known parts sources, were visually inspected & properly staked, torqued, & assembled by me. The heresy, if any, is the mix of parts manufacturers, ammo & lube used.

I'm not making recommendations for defensive, security, LEO or military work. But, on the other hand, these are parts manufacturers that are within the reach & consideration of many people that own ARs. Often, better parts can be had for the same money or less initially. Generally, better parts cost less in the long run.

Both of these weapons get fed steel cased Wolf ammo only (gasp) & Mobil 1 lube has been used exclusively (horror). The lube is a 2:1 mix of synthetic motor oil & ATF. Over the years both weapons have sent thousands of rounds downrange in practice & training classes with the likes of Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, John Farnam, John Benner, Dave Bowie, Lynn Freshly and others. They're run hard, receive minimal cleaning & liberal amounts of lube. Parts failures have been few, minimal malfunctions & no stuck cases.

They both have cast DPMS lower receivers, and an assorted mix of parts from DPMS, Rock River, Armalite, EGW, Yankee Hill, Midwest Industries, High Standard, EOTech, Millett & Bushmaster. Both barrels are marked 5.56 NATO, but a chamber reamer proved otherwise & brought them into spec.

The results of this ongoing, unscientific test are that the guns are accurate & keep running with boring regularity. I don't deny that others might have issues, but, I've seen many name brand weapons choke in classes with great frequency. Most problems end-up being related to lack of lube, magazines, reloaded ammo, loose gas blocks & bolts not staked.

Are there better parts & ammo? You bet there are & I use them as well. There are a lot of people reading this forum that purchased brand XYZ & are hearing that they have a pile of crap. Go easy on them, guide them - for their intended usage their choices might be perfectly fine.

If making your first choice, then read, ask questions & make an informed decision. If the choice is already made, then learn how to tighten, inspect, lube & Loctite accordingly & use it. Get some training & don't look back! I've made my choices & said my piece - make of it what you will. YMMV

Dace
09-06-08, 16:31
Okay...

MarshallDodge
09-06-08, 17:21
I hear you MX5. As a guy who does not own guns that are on the top of the "list" I was a little concerned even though I have owned AR-15's in one form or another since 1984. After reading "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!" (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376) I checked over my guns and even though they run just fine I will probably do some minor upgrades to a few of the parts.

I appreciate all the knowledge on this site. The reading material has helped me a great deal in getting to know my AR's even better. :cool:

Bushytale
09-06-08, 17:41
Good post MX5

MBRMan
09-07-08, 06:10
I'm sure someone will be along shortly to comment on your sample size of one, etc.;)

MBR

Paul45
09-07-08, 09:10
I have found thru the years, that if you know what you are doing, most guns will function with a little loving care and adjustments.
I agree is you put it together and check for the known issues you will mostly likely get a gun the will serve you very well.
If you go into harms way - get the best you can. Fun guns are great but you BUTT is worth the best.
I have both and enjoy the less than great - I get to play with them and coach them to function. The great guns get carried.

C4IGrant
09-07-08, 10:33
I agree with your post. The biggest issue with AR's is lack of staking, tight chambers, lack of lube and crappy mags. Fix these things and just about any AR should run.

The argument however is that the cost of the lesser grade parts run nearly the same as quality parts. So if you are a first time buyer, why not spend the extra $50-$100 and buy a weapon that is vastly superior?



C4

Remember911
09-07-08, 12:12
Could not have said it better. spend the $ . :cool:

threefeathers
09-07-08, 13:07
I understand what you are saying saying and when my freinds who are of limited funding I am happey to recommend High Standard, DPMS, Armelite, etc as basic weapons that will run for years.
I also tell them tolook into building usind DoubleStar, etc parts.

But for myself I got my son's Colt 6920's for defense.
That said one of them is getting really into service rifle and he chooses to use his Rock River NM for everything.

MX5
09-07-08, 15:24
...I'm not bashing or defending any particular manufacturer of weapons, parts...I prefer top grade parts & equipment, recommend same...Often, better parts can be had for the same money...Generally, better parts cost less in the long run...for their intended usage their choices might be perfectly fine...YMMV

Maybe choices were made that were less than ideal or maybe it'll be just fine for what you intend to do with it. Don't get wrapped around the axle, use it & learn. You might find it's just fine - or not. Look for quality & understand balance in all things.

Lonestar.45
09-07-08, 16:32
I don't doubt your experience.

I do, however, think it pretty ballsy to run through all the classes you say you have, with Wolf. Personally I would not spend that kind of money for those classes and bring Wolf. YMMV.

IrishDevil
09-07-08, 19:15
Most any AR that is well lubed and within spec will run on Wolf, it's decent training ammunition. I personally prefer to use Silver Bear, but when it's not available I use Wolf. Up until a week ago I had a dedicated Silver Bear/Wolf upper, which I sold, it was a carbine gas system and I've decided to pick up another in midlength.




I don't doubt your experience.

I do, however, think it pretty ballsy to run through all the classes you say you have, with Wolf. Personally I would not spend that kind of money for those classes and bring Wolf. YMMV.

mmike87
09-07-08, 21:37
I don't doubt your experience.

I do, however, think it pretty ballsy to run through all the classes you say you have, with Wolf. Personally I would not spend that kind of money for those classes and bring Wolf. YMMV.

I used Wolf in a class for close range stuff with no issues. I did however bring a second rifle and other "better" ammo along, too. I don't want to slow the class down with my rifle repairs - for any reason, not just that I had Wolf ammo.

If you can save money on ammo you should. Why wouldn't you? Someone sells a lot of Wolf. My local range is littered with thousands and thousands of Wolf cases. Someone is shooting a lot of Wolf successfully. It is what it is - smelly, 4-5" at 100 yards, and cheap by today's standards.

But, no one should shoot ammo they are not comfortable with.

RogerinTPA
09-07-08, 23:41
Agreed. If you can't buy the quality weapon today, why not postpone the purchase for a few months until you can? I believe Rob's "Chart" is making an impact in the AR industry. You can already tell how some are trying to "fill in some of the blanks" in order to get off the bottom of the chart. They know how to build these damn things to spec, but why should they when 90% of the population thinks any AR is just as good as a Colt?


The argument however is that the cost of the lesser grade parts run nearly the same as quality parts. So if you are a first time buyer, why not spend the extra $50-$100 and buy a weapon that is vastly superior?



C4

MX5
09-08-08, 08:01
I don't doubt your experience.

I do, however, think it pretty ballsy to run through all the classes you say you have, with Wolf. Personally I would not spend that kind of money for those classes and bring Wolf. YMMV.

Good point Lonestar. I wouldn't recommend that most people spend their time & money at classes like these using Wolf ammo. I don't want to be held-up while in class because someone else is having issues. In my case I trust the reliability of these two weapons with this ammo enough to take that chance. After many years, I've not had any ammo related problems with Wolf. Do I think it's great ammo? Not at all. But, this is what's available or affordable for a lot a people. This has been an ongoing test of sorts & I have the back-up training carbine with me. In the interests of not wasting my money & everyone's time, I carry a third suppressed Noveske carbine with a case of Lake City ammo, just in case. I may take chances, but they're calculated.

sff70
09-09-08, 16:50
While anyone can turn out a lemon, and even a blind squirrel can find a nut, instructors like Pat Rogers and LAV can and do offer opinions on what works and what doesn't.

Some brands account for the majority of stoppages and broken parts (bolts, especially) that they see.