View Full Version : Critique Future Lightweight Build
Planning on a precision lightweight build for future 3 gun training so goal would be to minimize weight and recoil but maximize performance and accuracy.
Barrel: 16' melonited 223 wylde Lothar Walther light med contour with 1-8 twist (30oz)
Gas tube: 0.750 (0.7 oz)
Gas block: Superlative Arms adjustable (1.7 oz)
Muzzle: SiCo ASR (3.5 oz) - would have used VG6 but i have an omega in stamp land so kind of stuck with asr.
Handguard: KMR (original) 13' with barrel nut (7.7 oz)
Upper: V7 GI forged (6.8 oz)
BCG: Young Manufacturing Super Light (9.2 oz)
Charging Handle: Raptor AXTS (1.2 oz)
Milspec fwd assist and dust cover assembly (1 oz)
Lower: V7 GI forged (8 oz)
Buffer tube: BCM millspec (3.8 oz)
Castle nut: Milspec (0.6 oz)
Buffer and spring: JP H2 SCS Gen 2 (6.9 oz)
Stock: MFT Minimalist (5.8 oz)
Grip: Hogue (2 oz)
Trigger: Geissele DMR (2.5 oz)
Various safety, pins etc (2 oz)
All togethet 93 oz (5.8 lb) before any optics or sights. Any improvements i should make?
titsonritz
09-09-16, 10:51
BCG: Young Manufacturing Super Light (9.2 oz)
I'd suggest a standard BCG over a LW version, it is just not the place to skimp.
What i heard was that Young has the most similar to the standard bcg. What would be your rec for a standard BCG? Does the h2 buffer make sense for this set up?
I'd suggest a standard BCG over a LW version, it is just not the place to skimp.
NWcityguy2
09-09-16, 19:32
There really isn't any point in taking weight away from the carrier just to add it again with the buffer. I'd recommend sticking with a standard BCG as well. Lightening all the weights is fine for race guns that are shot under a very controlled set of conditions, but I've seen those same guns go down on windy/dusty days.
Do i need the h2 buffer still if im using standard bcg?
There really isn't any point in taking weight away from the carrier just to add it again with the buffer. I'd recommend sticking with a standard BCG as well. Lightening all the weights is fine for race guns that are shot under a very controlled set of conditions, but I've seen those same guns go down on windy/dusty days.
NWcityguy2
09-09-16, 20:06
Need? Probably not. I run standard buffer weights in all of my ARs, and in two of them I also use a Tubbs Flatwire spring. The spring is 20% stronger than a standard spring, has a longer lifespan (allegedly), and eliminated the "sprong" noise while shooting.
The thing with buffer weights is that an AR will have a certain level of tolerance for different weights unless it is running right on the edge of it's limits. Upping, or lowering, the weight can bring it back to functionality, but there is an underlying problem nonetheless.
So the jp scs isnt that much of an improvement then?
Need? Probably not. I run standard buffer weights in all of my ARs, and in two of them I also use a Tubbs Flatwire spring. The spring is 20% stronger than a standard spring, has a longer lifespan (allegedly), and eliminated the "sprong" noise while shooting.
The thing with buffer weights is that an AR will have a certain level of tolerance for different weights unless it is running right on the edge of it's limits. Upping, or lowering, the weight can bring it back to functionality, but there is an underlying problem nonetheless.
NWcityguy2
09-09-16, 20:23
I've never used them, so I won't say that. But it is a lot of money to solve a problem that doesn't need fixing.
justin_247
09-09-16, 21:53
BCG: Young Manufacturing Super Light (9.2 oz)
...
Buffer and spring: JP H2 SCS Gen 2 (6.9 oz)
If you're going to run a JP buffer system, you should probably run a JP carrier, too. And being that JP specializes in spaceguns for match shooting and whatnot, they can probably help you pick out what would work best for you.
Not a problem but I would like to minimize recoil. Is the Tubbs spring a good alternative to SCS to reducing felt recoil and noise?
I've never used them, so I won't say that. But it is a lot of money to solve a problem that doesn't need fixing.
Makes sense - the only thing I don't like about JP was that their LMOS doesn't have forward assist serration for the occasional need for that function... If misfeed occurs, I'd rather not waste 10 sec to clear the problem.
If you're going to run a JP buffer system, you should probably run a JP carrier, too. And being that JP specializes in spaceguns for match shooting and whatnot, they can probably help you pick out what would work best for you.
If you want to consider a change I would go to a regular bolt carrier group, as mentioned here, and then I would look into a different barrel option. 30oz isn't exactly light when it comes to barrels. Look into going with a BCM lightweight or Ballistic Advantage and that will get you down to around 20-22oz. Which will help you maintain weight while you switch to a m16 cut BCG.
I am going to respectfully disagree with some of the comments above. I shoot a fair amount of 3 gun competitions and after a lot of experimenting, I use a light weight bolt carrier in my AR.
I have used bolt carriers that were standard mil-spec, super light weight aluminum, a steel JP low mass carrier (model number JPBC-3), and at least a few other types. Right now, I am using the steel JP low mass carrier. I think there is a significant benefit (regarding movement of the gun when shooting) when using a light weight carrier. But I also use an adjustable gas block (tuned to my gun/ammo combination). So that probably helps to take advantage of the light weight carrier.
Personally, I would avoid aluminum bolt carriers simply because of long term durability issues. I agree that you should not go light on the bolt carrier and go heavy on the buffer. That defeats the purpose.
I have also experimented with different weight buffers and the weights inside the buffers. If you experiment with the same, just realize that it is important to have some loose weight inside the buffer. I think you really need to keep the buffer effect for reliability reasons, particularly if you go with any light weight bolt carrier.
I have done very little experimenting with buffer springs.
Right now the setup for my competition rifle is a standard weight carbine buffer, standard strength carbine buffer spring, and a JP low mass bolt carrier. I am very happy with this setup and have no plans to change it. I use a Syrac adjustable gas block, but I am not so happy with that.
I hope this helps.
Joe Mamma
Well regardless of what bolt carrier group you go with OP. There are definetely better barrel options to lighten that gun up at least another half pound.
I use a light weight carrier and an empty buffer in mine...but with a stronger recoil spring. I tune the gas to run with my own loads, and everything balances out (and is reliable). The caveat is that if you change ammo, you might have to spend some time dialing it in again. I also agree that your barrel option weighs more than it needs to. I'm a certified brake hater, and I ended up putting a brake on mine; but it shoots like a laser gun.
The benefit to this is ridiculously low recoil... It's fast, and fun. It's a game gun. Have fun with it.
Planning on a precision lightweight build for future 3 gun training so goal would be to minimize weight and recoil but maximize performance and accuracy.
Gas block: Superlative Arms adjustable (1.7 oz)
Handguard: KMR (original) 13' with barrel nut (7.7 oz)
Upper: V7 GI forged (6.8 oz)
Lower: V7 GI forged (8 oz)
Stock: MFT Minimalist (5.8 oz)
Check out the Robar/KSP Polymar upper and lower receivers. They have metal reinforcements where needed and Robar guarantees 1MOA out of their factory rifles with them. I have a set and the finishing on them is very good.
Why not go with a Ti adjustable gas block, or Ti gas block and adjustable gas carrier (like the 2A Armament RBC)?
The Rogers super stoc spartan is lighter than the MFT.
I use a light weight carrier and an empty buffer in mine...but with a stronger recoil spring. I tune the gas to run with my own loads, and everything balances out (and is reliable). The caveat is that if you change ammo, you might have to spend some time dialing it in again. I also agree that your barrel option weighs more than it needs to. I'm a certified brake hater, and I ended up putting a brake on mine; but it shoots like a laser gun.
The benefit to this is ridiculously low recoil... It's fast, and fun. It's a game gun. Have fun with it.
I'm running a combo like this too in my lightweight gun (4.5lbs inc optic). KSP Ti BCG, empty CAR buffer, SLR Ti adj gas block, and JP carbine spring (had larger operating space than milspec, Sprinco blue, and Tubbs springs).
I'm actually going to try switching to the BAD Ti gas block and the 2A Armament RBC BCG just to see how they work.
I don't want to sacrifice accuracy and durability though - is there another barrel that weigh less than the LW and produce similar performance?
Well regardless of what bolt carrier group you go with OP. There are definetely better barrel options to lighten that gun up at least another half pound.
I'd suggest a lighter barrel.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XFX15A58R16NLQ&name=Faxon+Firearms+16"+Gunner+.223%2f5.56+4150+QPQ+Nitride+Barrel&groupid=6477
I don't see any issue with a lightweight bolt carrier if you're running an adjustable gas block. It looks like all of the posters overlooked that part.
ExplorinInTheWoods
09-11-16, 09:32
I would do the REV Arms M-Lok rail it's crazy light and for the light BCG use an adjustable gas block.
Lightweight BCGs/buffers are fine as long as you have an adjustable gas block like the Superlative Arms or SLR rifleworks.
Barrel isn't the lightest, but the LW will certainly be far more accurate than most other lightweight barrels. Really your call if you want to trade weight for precision.
Other than that it looks good.
No bueno on Lothar. That woody guy talks the talk but is not gonna deliver on a single retail order. He said i wont see my barrel back for at least two months. Gonna need alterntives - at least he said he'll send my check back... Probably a noveske?
Lightweight BCGs/buffers are fine as long as you have an adjustable gas block like the Superlative Arms or SLR rifleworks.
Barrel isn't the lightest, but the LW will certainly be far more accurate than most other lightweight barrels. Really your call if you want to trade weight for precision.
Other than that it looks good.
Really? I have heard that repeated a lot, but mine was quick and easy. Mailed my order on a Thursday, they got it on a Friday, I had my barrel on the following Wednesday. Less than 1 week turn around, and this was just two months ago. Maybe that was a thing in the past, but my experience was the exact opposite.
Unless you have a direct experience otherwise, I would say LW if more than fine.
Oh man if you got a stash of those id love to buy from you ;)
Really? I have heard that repeated a lot, but mine was quick and easy. Mailed my order on a Thursday, they got it on a Friday, I had my barrel on the following Wednesday. Less than 1 week turn around, and this was just two months ago. Maybe that was a thing in the past, but my experience was the exact opposite.
Unless you have a direct experience otherwise, I would say LW if more than fine.
Haha sorry they all have homes now. Again I wouldn't worry about ordering straight from LW.
Darn... well he already cancelled my order saying he doesn't have time to deal with individual orders that require meloniting. What do you think of a Green Mountain, Noveske recon or a Battle Arms ultralight at this point.
Haha sorry they all have homes now. Again I wouldn't worry about ordering straight from LW.
Well that sucks! I would suggest adding to that list the AR Performance Scout, and Criterion Melonited barrels.
Whoa those ARPs are great prices! I think they might be the winner here. But just saw that they are actually quite known for their 6.8 SPCs and that's a much better hunting round. Wish the ammo isn't so expensive tho. Any other barrel suggestions? You are awesome :)
Darn... well he already cancelled my order saying he doesn't have time to deal with individual orders that require meloniting. What do you think of a Green Mountain, Noveske recon or a Battle Arms ultralight at this point.
The ARP 5.56 barrels are just as good as their 6.8s. Should be under 1moa with good ammo and very durable. Real problem is that it is tough to find 'em in stock. If you want more options in a similar price range, Integrity Arms has some good 5R barrels.
Empty buffers and light carriers can cause ftf's, you need some mass to strip rounds out the mag and overcome friction from debris in the action. It can't all be replaced with spring weight. My suggestion is SLR titanium gas block, LMT enhanced carrier and a carbine buffer at the lightest. I think any rifle that is to be relied on should have at least an H buffer.
Why LMT over other full mass bcgs? Im thinking of running a lw with that slr and a rubber city low mass carrier. If i get the lothar barrel do i need to get their headspaced bolt or will any m4 bolt work?
Empty buffers and light carriers can cause ftf's, you need some mass to strip rounds out the mag and overcome friction from debris in the action. It can't all be replaced with spring weight. My suggestion is SLR titanium gas block, LMT enhanced carrier and a carbine buffer at the lightest. I think any rifle that is to be relied on should have at least an H buffer.
Do some reading on the LMT-e, alternate venting and cam track that delays unlock. Most users report being able to run their AGB's 1 click closer to closed using the LMT-E vs normal carrier.
Well that sucks! I would suggest adding to that list the AR Performance Scout, and Criterion Melonited barrels.
How about this guy?
http://www.makereadyproshop.com/satern-18-ss-double-fluted-lightweight-3gun-barrel/
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