View Full Version : Road Rage Shooting...
Thought some of you might appreciate this OP on a forum I frequent...bad deal all the way around:
http://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609113
Averageman
09-09-16, 13:22
Thought some of you might appreciate this OP on a forum I frequent...bad deal all the way around:
http://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609113
That's a big bucket load of crazy.
The 3rd Party is lucky he didn't catch a round trying to break that up. I'm staying out of two grown ass men going at it, somehow there's a good chance this kind of stuff was earned.
No Woman or Kids catching it, no allah akbar, well you all have fun with that. I will be a good witness from over here in the shade.
Outlander Systems
09-09-16, 13:28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqeWNclrO0E&feature=youtu.be
Looks like this happened in Texas so I would bet on a no-bill from the grand jury.
It looks like he made some mistakes in allowing the other guy to wrestle with him and let himself get cornered but IMO he acted within the limits of our law. No way I would vote for indictment if I was on his jury.
If that's Texas, I'm saying "tough crap" to a prosecutor and going with "not guilty".
In fact, I'd probably do it from a jury seat in any state. Simply do not care about the dead guy once he breaks out the car window, takes a full swing at the head of another man, and breaks in the windshield. At that point, he's better off to society -- in the ground.
If that's Texas, I'm saying "tough crap" to a prosecutor and going with "not guilty".
In fact, I'd probably do it from a jury seat in any state. Simply do not care about the dead guy once he breaks out the car window, takes a full swing at the head of another man, and breaks in the windshield. At that point, he's better off to society -- in the ground.
I'm with you on that, my comments were just aimed towards the way I've seen these cases go down here over the years. Even the Joe Horn case where the guy definitely said some things that would make a lawyer or CHL/LTC instructor cringe never made it to trial since the Grand Jury no-billed him.
Averageman
09-09-16, 14:15
Looks like this happened in Texas so I would bet on a no-bill from the grand jury.
It looks like he made some mistakes in allowing the other guy to wrestle with him and let himself get cornered but IMO he acted within the limits of our law. No way I would vote for indictment if I was on his jury.
I would say the third party is damned lucky he didn't take one being a jerk and getting involved. Had he been shot it may well have been justified also.
I would say the third party is damned lucky he didn't take one being a jerk and getting involved. Had he been shot it may well have been justified also.
I'm with you on that. He comes in aggressively and instantly makes physical contact. In a situation like that it was probably not possible to see where he came from and my first thought would have been that he was out of that vehicle as well and a threat. If someone wrestles for my gun I'm assuming they want to use it on me and pulling the trigger or drawing my back-up knife and using it. The fact that he didn't shoot the interloper shows he definitely was not the aggressor here as he would have been justified in taking him out too in my mind.
Averageman
09-09-16, 14:33
I'm with you on that. He comes in aggressively and instantly makes physical contact. In a situation like that it was probably not possible to see where he came from and my first thought would have been that he was out of that vehicle as well and a threat. If someone wrestles for my gun I'm assuming they want to use it on me and pulling the trigger or drawing my back-up knife and using it. The fact that he didn't shoot the interloper shows he definitely was not the aggressor here as he would have been justified in taking him out too in my mind.
I would say that the adrenalin load at that point, plus the previous attack showed the Guy was amazingly level headed. He may well have assisted in making the case for the guy in a way. If he has to take the stand it certainly shows he had restraint.
This is my train of thought as well...I'm a bit disappointed in my Texas brethren as there are two threads going on this & some of the replies have me scratching my head. Shoot till the threat has stopped, correct?? Many feel the 3rd shot over the shoulder of 3rd party are grounds for man slaughter??
http://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609084
If that's Texas, I'm saying "tough crap" to a prosecutor and going with "not guilty".
In fact, I'd probably do it from a jury seat in any state. Simply do not care about the dead guy once he breaks out the car window, takes a full swing at the head of another man, and breaks in the windshield. At that point, he's better off to society -- in the ground.
I'll never know what I am going to do in that situation (I hope), but I can see where if applying what he did to what my actions might be, I would say, "Yeah, the shooter was a complete moron for going gang banger style, over the top, and popping him in the back of the head." I also can not imagine myself shooting from the open car door and then closing the distance to the threat, in THAT scenario. If my hand was forced like this, there would probably have been 9-12 shots in that guy's chest the 1.5 seconds after he opened the door on me -- after he had struck the door frame, broke the door glass, and the broke windshield with a pipe/bat/rod.
I would have shot from where I was, and then assessed from the doorway. I think.....
Looks like this happened in Texas so I would bet on a no-bill from the grand jury.
It looks like he made some mistakes in allowing the other guy to wrestle with him and let himself get cornered but IMO he acted within the limits of our law. No way I would vote for indictment if I was on his jury.
I wouldn't make that bet in Travis county, but anywhere else in TX? Yeah.
His final shot is highly questionable IMO, but I wouldn't vote guilty on it. His tactics suck. I'd have Bill Drill'd him from inside the car, then exited on the passenger side to maintain space. At least that'd be the training default, so I hope that's how I'd do it. Of course I'm obsessive about domain awareness, so I'd never have allowed myself to get boxed in in a parking lot for starters. People with good PERSEC tend to not get involved these types of fracas' to begin with. Just sayin...
I wouldn't make that bet in Travis county, but anywhere else in TX? Yeah.
His final shot is highly questionable IMO, but I wouldn't vote guilty on it. His tactics suck. I'd have Bill Drill'd him from inside the car, then exited on the passenger side to maintain space. At least that'd be the training default, so I hope that's how I'd do it. Of course I'm obsessive about domain awareness, so I'd never have allowed myself to get boxed in in a parking lot for starters. People with good PERSEC tend to not get involved these types of fracas' to begin with. Just sayin...
IMO, Harris County is worse than Travis County and that is where Horn was no-billed.
When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong
While I try very hard, every day, to keep my situational awareness as high as possible, I think in the moment, I wouldn't have refrained from stopping threat #2.
I never would have been boxed in that way, I would have been out of the vehicle, weapon drawn and at the side of my leg positioning myself towards the front of the vehicle well before he would have gotten the trunk opened.
His body language showed intent, he motioned towards him, blocked him in, he was intending harm. If I see someone going to a trunk, I am thinking "potential long gun, identify hands, identify aggressive motions and notions.
This may be common for someone who drills the OODA loop, but, like I mentioned, if someone did get the drop on me, or I wasn't paying attention enough, I still think I wouldn't have allowed threat #2 to close distance.
I think he knew him. Or had seen him, or something. Because in that moment, it's a lot to handle someone reaching for your firearm while this is going on.
Sorry fellas...I think the vid is a good tool for discussion, but appears this isn't anything local to most all of us:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/graphic-video-shows-galilee-mayor-shooting-assailant-to-death/
Someone found the rest of the story.
Weird that it ended up on a small Texas forum like that first.
Wonder what the SD laws are like in Israel?
Digital_Damage
09-09-16, 16:57
blood feud... Looks like the guy doing the shooting firebombed the other guy the day before. Dude is going away.
This is my train of thought as well...I'm a bit disappointed in my Texas brethren as there are two threads going on this & some of the replies have me scratching my head. Shoot till the threat has stopped, correct?? Many feel the 3rd shot over the shoulder of 3rd party are grounds for man slaughter??
http://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609084
They probably have a more concrete appreciation of what 'shoot 'till the threat has stopped' means. It does not necessarily mean 'shoot them into the ground.'
In this case I think that most people will accept that the initial shot, or shots, were warranted. At 21 seconds the man shoots and his assailant starts to double over, he is no longer swinging, you could say the next couple shots are follow on's directly related to the first shot. The thought might be that man had fired to protect himself, and it may seem his brain was just a fraction slow in telling him to stop actions it has already initiated.
Where you will get argument is the fact that he continued to get out of the car and close with the man after the man's reaction to shots one two and three, he actually holds the third man back as he fires what I will call shots four and five, he is actually over the third man's shoulder, raising the gun to clear him and fire what I will call shot six. This all takes place within four seconds.
The questions here are 'was the man still in reasonable fear of his life as he fired those last shots, or, had he shifted from defense to offense?
By now we know this took place outside the U.S. Had it taken place in the U.S. a fundamental issue would be the way the jurisdiction's 'self-defense' statute is written. And how compelling the expert witnesses for the defense and prosecution are.
Leaveammoforme
09-09-16, 17:50
Sorry fellas...I think the vid is a good tool for discussion, but appears this isn't anything local to most all of us:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/graphic-video-shows-galilee-mayor-shooting-assailant-to-death/
Someone found the rest of the story.
blood feud... Looks like the guy doing the shooting firebombed the other guy the day before. Dude is going away.
Well that takes the fun out of it.
Still... Big lolz at the guy in dark clothing ghetto bouncing around.
Did that just happen?!
*bounces over behind car and peeks around*
Yep...it did!
Let's stay on track like it happened here & was a road rage incident like the replies imply...how can one go from clear self defense to man slaughter in 3-4 seconds & doped up on adrenaline?? Add No training /etc. & yet many are wanting to throw the man behind bars when the bad guy was still standing, looks like he still may have had the pipe in his hands or could have been armed himself. I just don't see how one could make such a rash conscience decision under an extreme amount of short time knowing the threat was indeed over. They are basing their decision due to the fact the video looks like an execution to the head because the bad guys appeared to look defenseless.
Under the circumstances, it's very fortunate the 3rd party didn't get a bullet as well with his aggression...it's a jacked up deal, but to me you cannot put the man away with the video I see.
Averageman
09-09-16, 18:09
If I'm toe to toe with someone who deserves being shot because of their aggressive assault with a bat against my car and body, I am as likely as not to empty a magazine, or only stop when they change shape or catch on fire.
I'm not a bad ass, not at all, if it gets to that point I'm scared as hell and operating on adrenaline and my reptile brain.
If I'm toe to toe with someone who deserves being shot because of their aggressive assault with a bat against my car and body, I am as likely as not to empty a magazine, or only stop when they change shape or catch on fire.
I'm not a bad ass, not at all, if it gets to that point I'm scared as hell and operating on adrenaline and my reptile brain.
This. People aren't as easy to kill as TV makes people think. Especially if I am blocked in and have no place to go. If cornered, anything goes.
This. People aren't as easy to kill as TV makes people think. Especially if I am blocked in and have no place to go. If cornered, anything goes.
This is a good point. Most people have never seen how someone really reacts when getting shot but TV makes it seem like a light switch where a torso hit keels someone over right away.
Every situation is different and a non-life threatening wound may take the fight out of one guy and invigorate the next.
Leaveammoforme
09-09-16, 19:16
Let's stay on track like it happened here & was a road rage incident like the replies imply.....(snip)
Going with this as a scenario only, no back story and you wake up boxed in having to exit drivers door-
-99% of M4C would have engaged #1
-95% of M4C would have engaged #2 in the #1 anchor shot time slot.
-90% of M4C would've then simultaneously reloaded, moved for cover and decided if bouncy fella was a threat or not.
-10% of M4C would have Jason Bourne'd everyone you can see in the video, +4 more you can not.
-90% of M4C would acquit the above.
Outlander Systems
09-09-16, 19:18
I would have jumped out the passenger side, but that's just me.
Explain Jason Bourne-ing.
Never saw the movies. Do you mean hand to hand?
Outlander Systems
09-09-16, 19:27
Homie ain't swinging that stick inside the car.
;)
If I turn dude's face into a canoe, I run the risk of going to jail.
If I let him beat me within an inch of life, he runs the risk of bankrolling a LOT of pet projects of mine once I guaranteed win the Civil Case.
If he starts getting some solid shwacks - canoe face.
Explain Jason Bourne-ing.
Never saw the movies. Do you mean hand to hand?
How about: Jack Baure'd everyone you can see in the video, +4 more you can not. Does that get you there?
Outlander Systems
09-09-16, 19:31
How about: Dano5326'd everyone you can see in the video, +4 more you can not.
That gets me there!
titsonritz
09-09-16, 19:40
I guess it's true, the whole "Israeli carry" thing, see 0:18.
I guess it's true, the whole "Israeli carry" thing, see 0:18.
I saw the same thing. Hang on a 'sec while I get ready to shoot.
I was thinking slam it in reverse and get out of there as soon as I sussed he getting a weapon. (He was lucky it was a stick)
Moose-Knuckle
09-10-16, 04:04
Fellas, IIRC the author of that thread on the bowhunter forum linked in the OP is a member here and a real life defense attorney who also happens to run a NFA Trust business.
I don't care what country your in, an imbecile comes at you with a blunt instrument swinging away that is a deadly force incident plain and simple.
The only thing I see wrong is Mr. Good Samaritan Nosey Pants decides to attempt to disarm the white sedan driver. WTF over?!
If that scenario happened in the US I would guess there is a decent chance of him getting indicted for the last shot over the shoulder. The percentages of you getting indicted would vary greatly state to state.
In my opinion:
First few shots after the door was opened: Golden. Text book self defense.
Next couple as the bystander starts interfering: Probably good as well. Still in close proximity with the suspect who looks to still possibly be armed.
Last shot while reaching over the bystander: That one is questionable. The bystander has already started separating the two guys. The suspect is doubled over and facing the other way. The victim had to reach over the bystander to shoot the guy the last time. That last shot might come back to bite you in the ass.
Would I indicted him based off the video? Probably not. Would some other Grand Jury? Definitely possible.
When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong
I laughed for about a minute straight...
That last shot might come back to bite you in the ass.
Would I indicted him based off the video? Probably not. Would some other Grand Jury? Definitely possible.
My thoughts entirely. That final shot is one that a whole lot of people would probably take issue with. The others? Self defense would be an easy and almost irrefutable argument, and short of it being somewhere completely insane (Cali/NY/etc...) there would be no issue. Granted, I've never been in the situation and I can't say how I would react. As some others have said, probably pulling the trigger until the threat was on the ground, and in this case that might have meant both the initial attacker and the samaritan who goes for the weapon.
I don't know...most of the self-defense pistol courses I've taken teach some variation of the Mozambique drill. Seems like that might be a valid argument for that last shot.
Outlander Systems
09-10-16, 09:11
Please, dude, "Djibouti Shooty."
:p
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