View Full Version : Study: Pediatricians Not Discussing Guns
As if that's a bad thing. Cars, meds left out, chemicals, pools, tools, etc kill and injure far more children than guns (1). If safety of the children is their focus, than perhaps a simple guide handed to parents with advice on the major killers of children due to accidents and leave it at that. If I were a doc, I would stress to parents that leaving out meds
Study: Pediatricians Not Discussing Guns
Many children live in houses with guns, but pediatricians often don’t feel comfortable discussing gun safety with parents — even though most parents say they would welcome that conversation.
That’s a key finding from a study published Wednesday in the Journal of Pediatrics. It comes as some state legislatures and doctors tussle over proposals restricting what doctors can say to patients about firearms, and as doctor groups increasingly push physicians to treat gun violence as a public health concern.
The paper is based on a survey of about 1,200 parents in the area surrounding St. Louis. Parents visiting their pediatrician’s office filled out a questionnaire asking whether they owned firearms, whether their children were regularly exposed to guns and how they would react if the pediatrician brought up the question of firearm safety for children.
Based on the surveys, the researchers concluded that more than a third of children lived in houses with guns, while another 14 percent were regularly in houses that had them. About 77 percent said their pediatricians didn’t ask them any questions about gun safety. But, at least when it comes to safely storing guns, three-fourths of parents said the doctor should offer some advice. Parents who owned guns were less likely to want pediatricians discussing gun safety.
Cont:
http://www.theintelligencer.net/life/features/2016/09/769054/
(1) http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2013/09/29/how_common_are_child_gun_accidents_666.html
even though most parents say they would welcome that conversation.
But, at least when it comes to safely storing guns, three-fourths of parents said the doctor should offer some advice.
Dear Parents:
If you own guns and you have children it's up to YOU, NOT your pediatrician to discuss gun safety with your children. Its also up to YOU, NOT your pediatrician to be responsible and keep the guns secured.
If you are relying on your pediatrician in order to have this conversation, its WAY to late.
If you need advice on safely storing guns there are several people/organizations I would reach out to BEFORE a Dr.(no offense to our resident docs). NRA, GOA, local gun stores, local PD(not all are evil), local shooting ranges, appleseed organizations, etc... LOTS of gun organizations out there that go out of their way in this regard.
Im guessing these parents are also astonished when their teen age daughter gets pregnant because "its the doctors/schools responsibility to talk to them about sex" and "why didnt SOMEBODY ELSE talk to my kid about safe sex, provide condoms, etc....".
wildcard600
09-15-16, 09:03
As if that's a bad thing. Cars, meds left out, chemicals, pools, tools, etc kill and injure far more children than guns (1). If safety of the children is their focus, than perhaps a simple guide handed to parents with advice on the major killers of children due to accidents and leave it at that. If I were a doc, I would stress to parents that leaving out meds
Study: Pediatricians Not Discussing Guns
Many children live in houses with guns, but pediatricians often don’t feel comfortable discussing gun safety with parents — even though most parents say they would welcome that conversation.
That’s a key finding from a study published Wednesday in the Journal of Pediatrics. It comes as some state legislatures and doctors tussle over proposals restricting what doctors can say to patients about firearms, and as doctor groups increasingly push physicians to treat gun violence as a public health concern.
The paper is based on a survey of about 1,200 parents in the area surrounding St. Louis. Parents visiting their pediatrician’s office filled out a questionnaire asking whether they owned firearms, whether their children were regularly exposed to guns and how they would react if the pediatrician brought up the question of firearm safety for children.
Based on the surveys, the researchers concluded that more than a third of children lived in houses with guns, while another 14 percent were regularly in houses that had them. About 77 percent said their pediatricians didn’t ask them any questions about gun safety. But, at least when it comes to safely storing guns, three-fourths of parents said the doctor should offer some advice. Parents who owned guns were less likely to want pediatricians discussing gun safety.
Cont:
http://www.theintelligencer.net/life/features/2016/09/769054/
(1) http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2013/09/29/how_common_are_child_gun_accidents_666.html
Medical degrees now come with certifications of firearms expertise ?
If you are not smart enough to realize that guns need to be stored in places/condition where a child cannot access them without supervision, you are not smart enough to be raising a child.
How much firearms training are these doctors that are supposed to lecture us going to get? Who is going to instruct them? Will they have more firearms training and safe storage instruction than me? Shouldn't certified firearms instructors, like NRA certified instructors, be teaching people about firearms safety. Last I checked there was no semester on "Safe firearms handling and storage..." in med school.
Perhaps those who are educated about firearms should be the ones educating the doctors who are not educated or experienced with firearms. Just a thought...
The government should have no role in determining what a physician must or cannot discuss with a patient. If your doctor wants to discuss anything beyond good local ranges or the rediculous price of .22lr, then simply get a different doctor; it's not that hard, we grow like weeds.
I don't see how these issues are related.
Also, what kind of retard needs advice on firearm safety in the home? It is all self-explanatory.
Breaking news, firearms instructors are not discussing child health issues.
Ugh.
The government should have no role in determining what a physician must or cannot discuss with a patient. If your doctor wants to discuss anything beyond good local ranges or the rediculous price of .22lr, then simply get a different doctor; it's not that hard, we grow like weeds.
Indeed. Good ones, not so much.
Yeah. Lots of Nigerian and East Indian doctors just everywhere.
Anyways, guns are not an illness. I used to be a kid. No...not a kid. A hellion. I was a hellion. Anyways, guns and sharp objects were by and large kept out of my way as a toddler.
I survived. Not seeing the medical aspect here.
Just more save the world BS
ALL doctors in our healthcare system are by policy required to ask during an initial screening or exam. Our pediatrician is cool with not asking (he knows us and how we feel). From time to time when we have to take a kid for a sick visit we'll see a doc we haven't seen before, and they will ask. We decline. They move on. It's never been an issue, but I think it is asinine that they are compelled to ask in the first place.
The government should have no role in determining what a physician must or cannot discuss with a patient. If your doctor wants to discuss anything beyond good local ranges or the ridiculous price of .22lr, then simply get a different doctor; it's not that hard, we grow like weeds.
My local doctors office has been asking this of the kids for the past few years. I was slightly irritated but just listened to my kid answer the questions. It was kind of funny too. He did not get into lots of detail but told them the guns were all in the safe and locked and not he did not have access to them. He made a funny face at that one. That said I trust him with firearms. They're locked up to keep them from curious friends and the person looking for a quick score during a B&E. The domestic violence screening questions at the ER are even better. He made some very funny faces when asked those questions several years ago. I actually agree with those screening questions. We are asking our doc's to do too much. Cops too. We get calls about dogs in cars on a daily basis. Had one recently, it was 63F.
My local doctors office has been asking this of the kids for the past few years. I was slightly irritated but just listened to my kid answer the questions. It was kind of funny too. He did not get into lots of detail but told them the guns were all in the safe and locked and not he did not have access to them. He made a funny face at that one. That said I trust him with firearms. They're locked up to keep them from curious friends and the person looking for a quick score during a B&E. The domestic violence screening questions at the ER are even better. He made some very funny faces when asked those questions several years ago. I actually agree with those screening questions. We are asking our doc's to do too much. Cops too. We get calls about dogs in cars on a daily basis. Had one recently, it was 63F.
I once got a complaint about a coyote. It was from some midwest bs yuppie. I asked if he could tell if it was a coyote or just an ugly dog. I don't want to be accused of profiling.
Well he goes on about how it was coming through his yard. I asked what he wanted done. He said he did not know. I informed him that I couldn't just arrest a coyote.
I told him if he felt his life or property was threatened that he could shoot it. He said he didn't have a gun.
Ultimately I did a GNDN report and said if I seen any suspicious four legged animals, I would do a warrant check. He legitimately thought that was a thing.
But he was uppity anyway.
The epilogue was that it really was just a really really ugly dog.
I don't think coyotes are all that bad looking.
I even dated one and didn't want to chew off my arm.
I don't think coyotes are all that bad looking.
I even dated one and didn't want to chew off my arm.
Cougars are better =)
I once got a complaint about a coyote. It was from some midwest bs yuppie. I asked if he could tell if it was a coyote or just an ugly dog. I don't want to be accused of profiling.
Well he goes on about how it was coming through his yard. I asked what he wanted done. He said he did not know. I informed him that I couldn't just arrest a coyote.
I told him if he felt his life or property was threatened that he could shoot it. He said he didn't have a gun.
Ultimately I did a GNDN report and said if I seen any suspicious four legged animals, I would do a warrant check. He legitimately thought that was a thing.
But he was uppity anyway.
The epilogue was that it really was just a really really ugly dog.
I remember being on the phone with dispatch about 0300 one morning. She put me on hold and told me about a frantic man who called to report a prowler in his house. He was shocked and became frantic when dispatch told him Troopers were on the way and would be there in 30-45 min. He must have been a Flat Lander as they call us transplants here in VT. People need to be able to take care of themselves. At least for a while. He had no weapons in the house to defend himself with. I think it turned out to be his own dog eating food off the counter in his kitchen.
Was it Jessica's Dog seen here:
http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab160/usmcvet0331/coy%20dog_zpsfc55wzfy.jpg (http://s859.photobucket.com/user/usmcvet0331/media/coy%20dog_zpsfc55wzfy.jpg.html)
HardToHandle
09-15-16, 18:01
Doc: do you have guns in the house?
me: Hell yes!
Doc: Good... next question....
sevenhelmet
09-15-16, 18:55
I once got a complaint about a coyote. It was from some midwest bs yuppie. I asked if he could tell if it was a coyote or just an ugly dog. I don't want to be accused of profiling.
Well he goes on about how it was coming through his yard. I asked what he wanted done. He said he did not know. I informed him that I couldn't just arrest a coyote.
I told him if he felt his life or property was threatened that he could shoot it. He said he didn't have a gun.
Firefly, I can always count on you to make me laugh. That is signature-line worthy hilarious.
Ultimately I did a GNDN report and said if I seen any suspicious four legged animals, I would do a warrant check. He legitimately thought that was a thing.
But he was uppity anyway.
The epilogue was that it really was just a really really ugly dog.
If that came from where I think it did, you're harnessing your inner nerd. :cool:
Re: this thread, I'm so freaking sick of everything in the media centering on guns as the problem. Can somebody else's hobby that isn't a Constitutional right please take a turn as the scapegoat for a while? How about "do you have a computer in the house?". Online bullying is real, y'know. Check out TOS.
When obtaining a medical license requires obtaining a firearms instructor certification from a credible institution and scoring 85% or better on a decent qual course, I'll entertain gun safety tips from a medical provider. Until then, I think I'll stick with professional firearms instructors and the shooting industry for that subject.
Mission creep is something that should be guarded against, not embraced. :(
Moose-Knuckle
09-16-16, 03:14
My wife and I both take our son to his pediatrician appointments. So far the subject has not been brought up but if it does the answer we have both decided upon will be . . . no.
Moose-Knuckle
09-16-16, 03:15
I don't think coyotes are all that bad looking.
I even dated one and didn't want to chew off my arm.
Coyotes?!
You mean the dudes that run illegals into CONUS???
:jester:
Mission creep is something that should be guarded against, not embraced. :(
I would argue it's not mission creep, it is an active attempt of a governing body that is liberal in nature and specifically anti-gun as to them it poses as public health threat.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-16-16, 08:47
Never been asked but I think I have decided I have my response ready.
Yes, I think we have two caulk guns, a heat gun, and my wife has two small hot glue guns.
they have asked my wife a few times she says no
I want to go in sometimes and when he asks reply
does your wife have vibrators ?
Had a pediatrician ask once while I was filling out their office paperwork. I dropped the clipboard and pen right there on the floor, collected my son, and walked out without saying a word. The next day, I found a pediatrician who doesn't ask stupid questions.
I would argue it's not mission creep, it is an active attempt of a governing body that is liberal in nature and specifically anti-gun as to them it poses as public health threat.
That is absolutely correct. Generally speaking, physicians see themselves as the definitive authority in all matters dealing with health or disease. Thus, by labeling gun violence a health issue, pediatricians feel that they immediately become the final authority on the matter. Their lack of understanding of how firearms work is immaterial to them. After all most pediatricians cannot explain the epigenetic or molecular mechanisms of diseases they treat or the drugs they prescribe - that is the job of the PhD researcher or PharmD. Their perceived expertise is coming up with a treatment plan to eliminate what they see as the causative agent of the disease which is the gun in this case. A working knowledge of how a gun functions is no more needed than a working knowledge of how bacteria or cancer replicates its DNA.
This degree of arrogance is instilled in female pediatricians upon completing residency, and often coincides with the surgical insertion of the hyphen in their last name. The male pediatricians are less succeptible to this line of thinking, but it still occasionally occurs when the bow ties are tied a little too tight.
This degree of arrogance is instilled in female pediatricians upon completing residency, and often coincides with the surgical insertion of the hyphen in their last name. The male pediatricians are less succeptible to this line of thinking, but it still occasionally occurs when the bow ties are tied a little too tight.
I think that might be the funniest thing I've ever seen you write. I literally spit coffee. Pediatricians are the indeed red-headed stepchildren of the medical profession.
I always thought that the instillation of eye-rolling disdain for pediatricians was the sole province of General Surgery residencies.
I think that might be the funniest thing I've ever seen you write. I literally spit coffee. Pediatricians are the indeed red-headed stepchildren of the medical profession.
I always thought that the instillation of eye-rolling disdain for pediatricians was the sole province of General Surgery residencies.
Huh. I thought that was ED docs....
Huh. I thought that was ED docs....
ED docs are by nature inclined to be Real Doctors. No particular toward inclination toward social engineering. The things that they see every day provides a level of cynicism that just bakes that right out of them.
ED docs are by nature inclined to be Real Doctors. No particular toward inclination toward social engineering. The things that they see every day provides a level of cynicism that just bakes that right out of them.
Having been a medic, then an ED nurse for many years, it was an observation, not an insult. A surgeon at UNC Hospitals told me that ED docs are "family med docs with ATLS." And that's a program with a very strong EM department. Where I work now, EM is a division of surgery and definitely bottom-dwellers.
Honestly it never bothered me (ED nurses get the same rap of not being "good enough", esp compared to ICU nurses), and no ED doc I know gives a rat's behind what the other services thought, but that is a relatively prevailing thought.
Having been a medic, then an ED nurse for many years, it was an observation, not an insult. A surgeon at UNC Hospitals told me that ED docs are "family med docs with ATLS." And that's a program with a very strong EM department. Where I work now, EM is a division of surgery and definitely bottom-dwellers.
Honestly it never bothered me (ED nurses get the same rap of not being "good enough", esp compared to ICU nurses), and no ED doc I know gives a rat's behind what the other services thought, but that is a relatively prevailing thought.
Not in any hospital system where I've worked. Around here, the ED is a Land Unto Itself and the only doctors that can intrude without disdain are the surgeons. As Chief of Surgery the very last thing I want is responsibility for that department. The Medical Director of the ED is at the same level on the org chart as I am and that was done at my insistence. I remember fondly the day we went to all ABEM certified ED docs. I stopped getting silly calls from the ED at night, and it was now they that would slap the Hospitalists around over admissions...a task they kind of enjoy, I think.
Not in any hospital system where I've worked. Around here, the ED is a Land Unto Itself and the only doctors that can intrude without disdain are the surgeons. As Chief of Surgery the very last thing I want is responsibility for that department. The Medical Director of the ED is at the same level on the org chart as I am and that was done at my insistence. I remember fondly the day we went to all ABEM certified ED docs. I stopped getting silly calls from the ED at night, and it was now they that would slap the Hospitalists around over admissions...a task they kind of enjoy, I think.
At UNC Hospitals it is likely more like that. Where I work now, not so much. I envy the type of department which you describe.
At UNC Hospitals it is likely more like that. Where I work now, not so much. I envy the type of department which you describe.
I'm especially salty being one of the few "amphibians" at my shop (along with Tripp, BTW) who still covers the peds ED now and then. Most of the Peds EM faculty are fellowship trained pediatricians who look down on EM-trained interlopers. Unless, of course, we are covering holidays and RSV season. ;)
BTW, Tripp and I just got a Ntl Science Foundation grant with some of your peeps at UNC Epidemiology and Biostat. We created a mathematical model of optimal casualty evacuation in austere environments. He is handling the civilian/EMS side; I'm doing the JSOC side. All is well with his family and I'll tell him that you said hi.
I was never asked by a doctor. But I was once asked by a nurse at my child's pediatrician office. If you do what I did you will never be asked again.
Nurse: Are there any Firearms in the house?
Me: Do you enjoy anal sex?
Nurse: What?
Me: If you ask me a personal question that is none of your business then I am going to do the same.
Nurse: But it is one of the questions I am supposed to ask.
Me: Just following orders like a NAZI guard at a Concentration camp?
Nurse: What!?!?
Me: Do you really want me to ask you more questions or do you want to take care of my child?
Nurse: (Very confused) I think that we can move on?
I am a people person. :jester:
FYI: I was at my daughter's 1 year appointment so she did not understand what was said.
Having been a medic, then an ED nurse for many years, it was an observation, not an insult. A surgeon at UNC Hospitals told me that ED docs are "family med docs with ATLS." And that's a program with a very strong EM department. Where I work now, EM is a division of surgery and definitely bottom-dwellers.
Honestly it never bothered me (ED nurses get the same rap of not being "good enough", esp compared to ICU nurses), and no ED doc I know gives a rat's behind what the other services thought, but that is a relatively prevailing thought.
Where you work it seems EVERYONE is a division of General surgery.
At UNC Hospitals it is likely more like that. Where I work now, not so much. I envy the type of department which you describe.
At UNC, pretty much everyone other than sub-specialties of general surgery and internal med are their own department. OHNS, Urology, EM, Ophtho, etc... It makes for a much better work life for those departments because they have far more control.
Oh and Sensei your assessment of pediatricians was hilarious...and spot on.
Where you work it seems EVERYONE is a division of General surgery.
Duke and MUSC are the last university medical centers in the South where emergency medicine is a division of surgery or IM. Thus, it should come as no surprise that Duke was soliciting locums to staff their ED as recently as a year ago. It's sad because there are some very good people at Duke's EM Program (Alex, Charles and Josh to name a few), but the hospital leadership has its head up its ass in terms of compensation and knowing how to run an academic program.
As for MUSC, the only reason why it doesn't suck is Charleston and their Divisin Chair. Jauch is a good guy so I hear. That city is the bomb - excellent food, great bar scene, lots of eye candy, and passable beaches.
I'm very lucky at Wake. My Department has 14 Professors, 3 Deans (including GME and Academic Affairs), and the #3 VP in the health system. We're like the mafia - nobody leaves our department.
I was never asked by a doctor. But I was once asked by a nurse at my child's pediatrician office. If you do what I did you will never be asked again.
Nurse: Are there any Firearms in the house?
Me: Do you enjoy anal sex?
Nurse: What?
Me: If you ask me a personal question that is none of your business then I am going to do the same.
Nurse: But it is one of the questions I am supposed to ask.
Me: Just following orders like a NAZI guard at a Concentration camp?
Nurse: What!?!?
Me: Do you really want me to ask you more questions or do you want to take care of my child?
Nurse: (Very confused) I think that we can move on?
I am a people person. :jester:
FYI: I was at my daughter's 1 year appointment so she did not understand what was said.
I hate to see that shit happen. She was directed to ask that question and likely doesn't give a shit what your answer is. Did you derive some level of satisfaction from treating her that way? By embarrassing her that way, do you think that you really stuck it to the system that feels that it's some kind of relevant question?
As a physician, if someone treats me that way I just tell them to get the fu*k out of my office. She doesn't have that option.
.
SeriousStudent
09-16-16, 20:52
Hell yes, I discussed guns with my children's pediatrician!
How else were we going to settle on a fair price for the 6" Colt Python I sold him?
We talked a lot about bicycle racing, too.
Every now and there there was a chat about vaccinations, medical stuff, kids, etc. But mostly guns and bikes.
Duke and MUSC are the last university medical centers in the South where emergency medicine is a division of surgery or IM. Thus, it should come as no surprise that Duke was soliciting locums to staff their ED as recently as a year ago. It's sad because there are some very good people at Duke's EM Program (Alex, Charles and Josh to name a few), but the hospital leadership has its head up its ass in terms of compensation and knowing how to run an academic program.
As for MUSC, the only reason why it doesn't suck is Charleston and their Divisin Chair. Jauch is a good guy so I hear. That city is the bomb - excellent food, great bar scene, lots of eye candy, and passable beaches.
I'm very lucky at Wake. My Department has 14 Professors, 3 Deans (including GME and Academic Affairs), and the #3 VP in the health system. We're like the mafia - nobody leaves our department.
Duke is a strange place. The surgical sub specialties are beholden to gen surg for every aspect of their practice. That leads to faculty recruitment and retention problems. Contrast that with UNC where a department chair of a high revenue department can truly run the department how they see fit.
lol @docsherm. I bet she turned red as a beet.
I don't have kids but would just say "No".
None of their business and not germane to my child getting vaccinated/treated for childhood diseases/etc
I hate to see that shit happen. She was directed to ask that question and likely doesn't give a shit what your answer is. Did you derive some level of satisfaction from treating her that way? By embarrassing her that way, do you think that you really stuck it to the system that feels that it's some kind of relevant question?
As a physician, if someone treats me that way I just tell them to get the fu*k out of my office. She doesn't have that option.
.
I am sorry to offend your sensitive sensibility. Ask stupid questions, get stupid answers.
As a physician do you act like an ass? If so then you you should be expected to to be treated as such. I am VERY nice until others are not. If you , as a PHYSICIAN, asked me that I would tell you to F$%K yourself (as I was leaving) and file a grievance with the state board of medicine, my insurance company, and whatever state board of insurance that your state has for asking inappropriate questions about my lifestyle.
And to answer your question, no I did not "stick it to the system". I simply showed some one that you should think for your own...... If she did not get that then F@#k her. Actions have consequences, it is a new thing I am trying to instill into our society. ;)
I am not attacking you, I just do not like people that have no idea what they are doing. I spoke to her after that and she had no idea why she was asking that and was just reading from a list. Kind of like when you go to the VA you have to be asked a 1,000 times if you are depressed or drink too much before anyone will talk to you. They too are just following orders......and they are nurses, PA, NP, and physicians. And how many Vets Suffer because of that?
Rant off........
I am sorry to offend your sensitive sensibility. Ask stupid questions, get stupid answers.
"Do you enjoy anal sex"? Seriously?
Yes, it offends my sensitive sensibility, my sense of courtesy, and my sense of common human decency. Whatever questions we ask are done so with a sincere desire to provide you with whatever we think represents your best medical interests. You may disagree in which case a simple, and polite, "I prefer not to answer" will solve your problem. You apparently think that your disagreement gives you license to be a prick. I won't tolerate patients that treat me or any of my staff rudely with junior high-level self-indulgent sexually harassing comments and they get fired as patients. I hope you run into one of those kinds of doctor or nurse next time and that they can explain to you why being an ass won't get you better medical care. Frankly, I'm too busy and wouldn't waste the time. I'd have just had you escorted off the premises.
Rant off......
.
Eurodriver
09-17-16, 06:58
Hell yes, I discussed guns with my children's pediatrician!
How else were we going to settle on a fair price for the 6" Colt Python I sold him?
My orthopod was disappointed at the small size of the buck I shot, but was pretty happy that I did so 12 weeks after a calcaneal osteotomy! :dance3:
You may disagree in which case a simple, and polite, "I prefer not to answer" will solve your problem.
Asking about guns in a household has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's best medical interests. And a polite "I prefer not to answer" doesn't generate the kinds of conversations where doctors and nurses tell administrators that they're tired of patients telling them to get bent, so they're going to stop asking that question.
Asking about guns in a household has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's best medical interests. And a polite "I prefer not to answer" doesn't generate the kinds of conversations where doctors and nurses tell administrators that they're tired of patients telling them to get bent, so they're going to stop asking that question.
It doesn't work that way. It won't modify the way they practice medicine. The way it works...if you don't like the way your doctor practices or the question that he or his staff asks, you find another doctor. Being impolite to your doctor or his staff just gets you fired as a patient. You'll likely be asked to leave. Offensive questions like "do you enjoy anal sex?" are likely to get you escorted out the front door by security.
I am utterly opposed to doctors asking questions about guns in the home, but some doctors feel differently. None of us have to tolerate rudeness. Time is too short to deal with that bullshit.
Asking about guns in a household has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's best medical interests. And a polite "I prefer not to answer" doesn't generate the kinds of conversations where doctors and nurses tell administrators that they're tired of patients telling them to get bent, so they're going to stop asking that question.
Making crude jokes about sex toward the staff at your pediatrician's office is far more likely to cause problems for you than cause them to stop asking certain questions. Most of my nurses would probably call CPS if a parent asked them if they enjoy anal sex in front of their child under the assumption that said parent must be high.
If you really want to get a point across, then use a language that everybody understands - money. Simply tell them you are leaving the practice because of your concerns about the line of questioning.
Never said I agreed with that type of response. That's a bit extreme. But, asking a rude question often begets a rude answer. I view it in the same way as I do when a store clerk asks for my telephone number or email address while I'm making a purchase. Unless it has some direct bearing on my purchase, it's nothing more than the company trying to populate a database so they can either pester me with spam email/phone calls or sell my info to some data miner, i.e. some unnecessary BS that's likely to cause me aggravation in the future. If someone responds rudely to the clerk, that's the price of doing business when it's none of their business.
Here is a thought - when asked if you have firearms at home, say no. It's really none of their business, any more than if you have cutlery at home (for cooking, camping, or a collection), alcohol, cleaning supplies, porn, or anything else that some in society don't like.
Trying to argue with, insult or enlighten them is an exercise in futility. You can find another doctor, but what if this doctor is the one you want to treat you or you family?
Would you answer yes to an intrusive question from your child's teacher? Your minister/rabbi/guru? Your car mechanic? Saying it's none of their business is fine, but we all know what that answer really means - to them it means "yes".
Take Nancy Reagan's advise - just say no.
Answer however it makes you feel good. Just like the grocery store, your doctor reserves the right to refuse (non-emergency) service to anyone.
Never said I agreed with that type of response. That's a bit extreme. But, asking a rude question often begets a rude answer. I view it in the same way as I do when a store clerk asks for my telephone number or email address while I'm making a purchase. Unless it has some direct bearing on my purchase, it's nothing more than the company trying to populate a database so they can either pester me with spam email/phone calls or sell my info to some data miner, i.e. some unnecessary BS that's likely to cause me aggravation in the future. If someone responds rudely to the clerk, that's the price of doing business when it's none of their business.
A couple of thoughts:
1) There is a big difference between overtly rude and misguided.
2) We usually have no control over how this situations begin, but we have a lot of control over how they end. On one end of the extreme, we have seen the approach that involves security guards and a reinforcement of whatever negative opinions that office staff has toward gun owners. I'm sure that you can come up with an alternative that ends with a firearms novice being interested in the shooting sports.
It doesn't work that way. It won't modify the way they practice medicine. The way it works...if you don't like the way your doctor practices or the question that he or his staff asks, you find another doctor. Being impolite to your doctor or his staff just gets you fired as a patient. You'll likely be asked to leave. Offensive questions like "do you enjoy anal sex?" are likely to get you escorted out the front door by security.
I am utterly opposed to doctors asking questions about guns in the home, but some doctors feel differently. None of us have to tolerate rudeness. Time is too short to deal with that bullshit.
Wouldn't that also be noted in someone's EMR, for all future Docs to see?
My mother retired from working for specialists (Ortho's) as the Workman's Comp Manager. I've been around these stories of Docs higher on the ladder shit-talking the lower ones for most of my life. One of her bosses called the ED's "paper Doctors", lol.
I'd appreciate it if y'all would return to that, as I find the stories particularly entertaining. That's not a smart ass comment, I'm dead serious...it's hilarious.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well that devolved quickly! LOL
Seriously, some of you act like you don't understand how the world works. Simply saying yes, no or nunya doesn't get the point across that the practice is unacceptable. Does medical management actually believe that alienating a substantial segment of your client base, is good for promoting preventative medicine? Its not like we don't know that the medical side of the federal government is anti-gun (HHS, CDC) as is the AMA. Its not like we don't already distrust the incestual relationship between the medical field and the government. So when administrations implement questionnaires covering gun ownership, we see the camel's nose coming under OUR tent. We damned sure don't trust that the questionnaire will remain forever off limits to a myriad of government entities that can and do make people's lives a living hell. What you see as an opportunity to provide nonmedical safety information, the 2A supporter sees as the "system" collecting statistical information to further erode our rights. Doesn't matter one bit whether its true or not, because there's no transparency in the system for the client to confirm that themselves.
Here's another point. You doctors can crow about firing a patient, but the patient sees an anti-gun doctor who must agree with the anti-gun agenda. That you're pro gun is completely irrelevant. You've offended your patient to the point they have to decide whether to submit to your authority in exchange for a most important service, LIE to you or stand up for themselves and risk getting ejected. Does that really sound like an ideal relationship? Do you like when your clients distrust you and lie to you? Do you think it furthers your mission when they distrust you? Probably not.
If you're not telling your administration that gun ownership is NOT within the purview of practicing medicine, you're part of the problem. Patients can vote with their feet, but in some areas they may never find a health system that respects their boundaries. Well you have the same option. You can say you don't want to work for a system that doesn't respect its patients. You can vote with your feet and go to work for a system that does. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. If doctors and nurses are complaining that a practice is infuriating patients and creating a hostile work environment, that practice will STOP. If the administration never hears a complaint, it will continue to erode doctor patient relationships.
You could even suggest a compromise. Take the question off the questionnaire and offer gun safety phamplets in the lobby or exam room. It offers the same solution while protecting client privacy concerns. I wouldn't be surprised if that option was rejected by some powers that be, because it doesn't further their agenda. Why don't you find out? Go to your administration and tell them a patient was REALLY upset about the question, offer the comprise and see what they say? You'd be improving client relations AND protecting your staff from hostile reactions like "Do you enjoy anal sex?" What's not to like?
Thoughts?
Well that devolved quickly! LOL
Seriously, some of you act like you don't understand how the world works. Simply saying yes, no or nunya doesn't get the point across that the practice is unacceptable.........
You could even suggest a compromise. Take the question off the questionnaire and offer gun safety phamplets in the lobby or exam room. It offers the same solution while protecting client privacy concerns. I wouldn't be surprised if that option was rejected by some powers that be, because it doesn't further their agenda. Why don't you find out? Go to your administration and tell them a patient was REALLY upset about the question, offer the comprise and see what they say? You'd be improving client relations AND protecting your staff from hostile reactions like "Do you enjoy anal sex?" What's not to like?
Thoughts?
My thoughts are that all the medical folks come away with is the assessment 'what a douche' and drive on from there with whatever opinions they held reference asking the questions intact. To me the best thing is to simply say 'prefer not to answer' and address it with the doctor during the exam, instead of getting all righteous and indignant with the help.
If there is any exam involving poking, prodding, etc. of any of your private or delicate parts it might be best to wait until after the exam to broach the subject.
Another thing you need to remember is that if the Nurse has a husband, there is the possibility that you need be concerned about that aspect.
Wouldn't that also be noted in someone's EMR, for all future Docs to see?
My mother retired from working for specialists (Ortho's) as the Workman's Comp Manager. I've been around these stories of Docs higher on the ladder shit-talking the lower ones for most of my life. One of her bosses called the ED's "paper Doctors", lol.
I'd appreciate it if y'all would return to that, as I find the stories particularly entertaining. That's not a smart ass comment, I'm dead serious...it's hilarious.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I doubt that anyone is going to put something in a child's record that a parent does which does not pertain to the child's health. At my shop the kid would not even be dismissed from the practice, but the dad would be given a letter stating that he is not allowed on health system property unless it is for EMTALA purposes.
Moreover, a parent questioning a nurse about their sexual preference does not reasonably pertain to the child's healthcare, and is therefore not protected under HIPPA. Although administration is not likely to discuss it publicly, I would not be surprised if the nurse tells key people if you live in a small community.
As for a hospital ladder, that currently exists only as it pertains to the revenues a particular practice brings to the hospital. The more lucrative practices have more leeway with rules and how they treat (or mistreat) their colleagues. For example, the Department of Emergency Medicine at my shop actually makes a lot of money for the enterprise. Thus, we are well compensated and hold a disproportionate amount of leadership in the institution.
Thoughts?
My thought is, it comes down to the usual issue: having a good working relationship with your doctor(s) and able to have a person to person discussion with them. If you can't then they may not be the doctor for you. It is a relationship, some times you click, some times you don't. End of the day, that's what will matter and if I liked my doc and or kids doc, and felt they had my kids best interests in mind, discuss like an adult with them on the matter. Respect, mutual respect, goes a long way no matter who you're communicating with in my experience. I do not think it's appropriate for pediatricians to single out firearms for discussion for obvious reasons, but apparently via the OP, neither do they!
It's far more medically relevant to ask somebody if they are homosexual, but that would never happen in a first time consultation and there is a reason.
I doubt that anyone is going to put something in a child's record that a parent does which does not pertain to the child's health. At my shop the kid would not even be dismissed from the practice, but the dad would be given a letter stating that he is not allowed on health system property unless it is for EMTALA purposes.
Moreover, a parent questioning a nurse about their sexual preference does not reasonably pertain to the child's healthcare, and is therefore not protected under HIPPA. Although administration is not likely to discuss it publicly, I would not be surprised if the nurse tells key people if you live in a small community.
As for a hospital ladder, that currently exists only as it pertains to the revenues a particular practice brings to the hospital. The more lucrative practices have more leeway with rules and how they treat (or mistreat) their colleagues. For example, the Department of Emergency Medicine at my shop actually makes a lot of money for the enterprise. Thus, we are well compensated and hold a disproportionate amount of leadership in the institution.
My bad...I forgot we were talking pediatrician's. Yeah wouldn't make sense for that to be noted in a kids record.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In all seriousness, let's not get too emotional or hankled over a humbug.
I think just lying is the path of least resistance and maybe being flippant is killing the messenger.
I would rather, upon retrospect, just tell the nurse or doctor that I do not like such a question and ask why it is on their little checklist. If the doctor says it is some new form because government, just tell the doctor the question isn't a good one, understanding that he likely doesn't care one way or another, and to see if he can get word to these insurance, AMA, whoever types that it needs to get DX'd.
Your doctor is a grownup and wants to help. Surely enough people voicing their concern will get it taken off the checklist.
It is a persec issue because it simply isn't a topic I openly discuss in general unless I can meter a person out. Especially if a person is elderly and gets home health. You would be surprised at who is working in healthcare these days and who their boyfriends are. A lot of these programs for people to get their CNA has littered the world with some duds who work for anyone who will take them.
Not everyone is Dr. Kildare these days.
I took time to pick my doc. He keeps me going and has helped me bounce back from some hard lumps.
You aren't snotty to the guy who works on your gun, why be to the guy who is prolonging your life?
I'd just chalk it up to an off moment on a rare day.
It seems at times like some docs "play God", but....hey, I'm still living so I allot a little arrogance here and there but we probably shouldn't kill the messenger.
As much as I complain about Bongocare, I have heard doc say "Don't get me started, I would be here all day."
Just sayin
Simply saying yes, no or nunya doesn't get the point across that the practice is unacceptable.
Exactly. Especially when the only interface most people ever have is with the people on the lowest rungs of the ladder (unless it's a smaller, private practice). One of the monolithic, regional medical systems? Forget about it. Like any big business, it's very, very rare that such practices ever change unless there's a ruckus that catches the attention of people who can actually effect policy/protocol changes.
It is a persec issue because it simply isn't a topic I openly discuss in general unless I can meter a person out.
I don't know if you have children or not, but this bit is closer to the issue than you may know. This isn't an issue limited to pediatricians. It's also in schools, child services, health departments, adoption services, etc. It's pervasive enough that I've had "the talk" with each of my children as they've entered school: We don't talk about dad's work or dad's guns; to anyone. And if anyone ever asks about either of those, you need to tell me.
I don't know if you have children or not, but this bit is closer to the issue than you may know. This isn't an issue limited to pediatricians. It's also in schools, child services, health departments, adoption services, etc. It's pervasive enough that I've had "the talk" with each of my children as they've entered school: We don't talk about dad's work or dad's guns; to anyone. And if anyone ever asks about either of those, you need to tell me.
I do not have kids but I know kids are pumped for info more than ever.
I was told at an early age, and took to heart, that whatever is in our home is what is in our home and not to be discussed with others.
Anyone who had relatives in the Depression knows that running your mouth about food, guns, or money is asking for trouble.
I was told that Guns, Money, God, and Government were not topics discussed with others. You never know to what severity people will disagree and to what lengths people will go to show it. Especially by putting word out on what you have (and thus have to be stolen).
My thought is, it comes down to the usual issue: having a good working relationship with your doctor(s) and able to have a person to person discussion with them. If you can't then they may not be the doctor for you. It is a relationship, some times you click, some times you don't. End of the day, that's what will matter and if I liked my doc and or kids doc, and felt they had my kids best interests in mind, discuss like an adult with them on the matter. Respect, mutual respect, goes a long way no matter who you're communicating with in my experience. I do not think it's appropriate for pediatricians to single out firearms for discussion for obvious reasons, but apparently via the OP, neither do they!
I agree, which is why I'm concerned that so many docs don't seem to care that they're starting off on the wrong foot with concerned gun owners? :confused:
Well that devolved quickly! LOL
Seriously, some of you act like you don't understand how the world works. Simply sayingDoes medical management actually believe that alienating a substantial segment of your client base, is good for promoting preventative medicine? Its not like we don't know that the medical side of the federal government is anti-gun (HHS, CDC) as is the AMA. Its not like we don't already distrust the incestual relationship between the medical field and the government. So when administrations implement questionnaires covering gun ownership, we see the camel's nose coming under OUR tent. We damned sure don't trust that the questionnaire will remain forever off limits to a myriad of government entities that can and do make people's lives a living hell. What you see as an opportunity to provide nonmedical safety information, the 2A supporter sees as the "system" collecting statistical information to further erode our rights. Doesn't matter one bit whether its true or not, because there's no transparency in the system for the client to confirm that themselves.
Here's another point. You doctors can crow about firing a patient, but the patient sees an anti-gun doctor who must agree with the anti-gun agenda. That you're pro gun is completely irrelevant. You've offended your patient to the point they have to decide whether to submit to your authority in exchange for a most important service, LIE to you or stand up for themselves and risk getting ejected. Does that really sound like an ideal relationship? Do you like when your clients distrust you and lie to you? Do you think it furthers your mission when they distrust you? Probably not.
If you're not telling your administration that gun ownership is NOT within the purview of practicing medicine, you're part of the problem. Patients can vote with their feet, but in some areas they may never find a health system that respects their boundaries. Well you have the same option. You can say you don't want to work for a system that doesn't respect its patients. You can vote with your feet and go to work for a system that does. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. If doctors and nurses are complaining that a practice is infuriating patients and creating a hostile work environment, that practice will STOP. If the administration never hears a complaint, it will continue to erode doctor patient relationships.
You could even suggest a compromise. Take the question off the questionnaire and offer gun safety phamplets in the lobby or exam room. It offers the same solution while protecting client privacy concerns. I wouldn't be surprised if that option was rejected by some powers that be, because it doesn't further their agenda. Why don't you find out? Go to your administration and tell them a patient was REALLY upset about the question, offer the comprise and see what they say? You'd be improving client relations AND protecting your staff from hostile reactions like "Do you enjoy anal sex?" What's not to like?
Thoughts?
My though is that, seriously, you act like you don't understand the way the world of Medicine works.
My though is that, seriously, you act like you don't understand the way the world of Medicine works.
And you act like you don't understand how we work. You provide an indispensable service and use that fact against us. It's not like we can do without our health, so we get to suck it up and accept waiting hours past appointment times to hear alarming questions that don't have a damned thing to do with our medical condition, but it's all our fault if we react poorly to the problem YOU started?
"Medicine is NOT a one way street. BTW, "medicine" shouldn't be capitalizd in that sentence. No need to wonder why people like me don't trust the medical system, you're staring at it in the mirror. Careful doc, your God complex is showing. :(
The government should have no role in determining what a physician must or cannot discuss with a patient. If your doctor wants to discuss anything beyond good local ranges or the rediculous price of .22lr, then simply get a different doctor; it's not that hard, we grow like weeds.
This exactly.
SeriousStudent
09-17-16, 21:23
Slipping on the Mod hat for just a moment:
Gents, there are a lot of good folks in this thread, all of whom I respect. Let's please lower the temperature just a bit.
I suspect if we were all discussing this on my back patio with some tasty single malt or Bourbon, there would likely be more smiles and handshakes.
And then you could ask me all you want about guns in the home. :cool:
Deep breaths, gents. You have all dealt with much more contentious situations, I am positive of that.
Thank you all.
Words
This isn't something that docs like Hmac or Sensei have anything to do with implementing. It's the result of professional associations/publications becoming political and pursuing an agenda by pushing out "best practices" that are biased towards their political position. I've seen similar things in professional associations that I used to be a member of. It's like if ASE decided to push a political agenda and recommend that your auto mechanic ask if you have guns in your household and wanted them to "educate" you because an AD in your car would be bad for your car, or some other nonsensical rationale for asking in the first place. Pointing at anyone here as causing the issue is unfair. If Hmac or Sensei ran the AMA, I'm fairly certain that we wouldn't be seeing any of that nonsense.
For those who care, here is the firearms position statement from the American Academy of Pediatrics, the largest pediatric professional organization in the US with over 60,000 members.
https://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/federal-advocacy/documents/aapgunviolencepreventionpolicyrecommendations_jan2013.pdf
It is basically the entire democratic talking points on firearms as well as every other liberal issue out there.
Chances are, your child's pediatrician is a member of this organization since it is the only one in the specialty which offers published research and CME. There is a much smaller organization called the American College of Pediatricians which does not share the leftist agenda, but they are primarily located in the South and have only about 200 members. So, your options are 1) continue to take your kid to a pediatrician who uses money from your bill to support a professional society that wants to ban most of the guns you own, 2) look for a pediatrician who is a member of ACP instead of AAP, or 3) try your luck with a family practitioner.
Cheers
ramairthree
09-18-16, 01:26
And you act like you don't understand how we work. You provide an indispensable service and use that fact against us. It's not like we can do without our health, so we get to suck it up and accept waiting hours past appointment times to hear alarming questions that don't have a damned thing to do with our medical condition, but it's all our fault if we react poorly to the problem YOU started?
"Medicine is NOT a one way street. BTW, "medicine" shouldn't be capitalizd in that sentence. No need to wonder why people like me don't trust the medical system, you're staring at it in the mirror. Careful doc, your God complex is showing. :(
Blaming individual doctors for the medical system is like blaming individual teachers for the educational system or individual SOF personnel for the way the military is going.
Moose-Knuckle
09-18-16, 01:53
Whatever questions we ask are done so with a sincere desire to provide you with whatever we think represents your best medical interests.
Asking about personal firearm ownership has NOTHING to do with one's "best medical interests" unless of course a patient is suffering from depression and his being treated by a psychologist for suicidal tendencies. But they should be asking if they also own a rope, a garden hose, automobile, an enclosed garage, razor blades, et al.
Moose-Knuckle
09-18-16, 01:56
Answer however it makes you feel good. Just like the grocery store, your doctor reserves the right to refuse (non-emergency) service to anyone.
If only that were true for Christian bakers.
If only that were true for Christian bakers.
OH yeah, nowadays buying a cake is a "civil right".
Asking about personal firearm ownership has NOTHING to do with one's "best medical interests".
In your opinion (and mine). But there are a lot of doctors out there who feel differently. Almost all of the specialty organizations in the US have clear position statements about guns and in some cases it shapes the way they practice. Many doctors actually believe that guns in America represent a public health problem, and one for which they bear some responsibility to address. Like many other issues on M4C, there's a tendency to ascribe some level of conspiracy behind this whole asking-about-guns thing, but there's not. It's mostly doctors practicing medicine in the way that they think fulfills a responsibility that they take very seriously. There's no broad-based external compulsion to do so.
As part of that conspiracy-assumption, fingers get pointed at the AMA because it's historically been the most visible physician organization, but in reality less then 15% of US doctors are even members. Doctors are so politically fractionated (internal medical politics) that there can be no organization that represents them all. There isn't an organization anywhere in the US the represents more than 15% of all doctors.
Imagine the power that a broad-based union for physicians would have. It will never happen. Doctors are too independent. They can't all conclude what's best for Medicine, because each specialty, each state, each community each practice each doctor has different needs, perceptions, and opinions. And nobody can lead them. Organizing doctors is typically described as "trying to herd cats". It's especially a problem because they're cats with big egos. The control that can be exerted on them by the Feds, the states, the corporation that employs them is limited because they are hard to replace, because, ultimately, they control health care delivery at the point of care, and because they are the ones that generate the revenue for that corporation/hospital/clinic.
You can be rude, even crude, to your doctor or his/her nurse with the thought that they will go complain to their "boss" that they want to stop asking that question. That won't happen even if they actually have a boss in the conventional sense (very few do). They likely won't even report it. It's will just be a "what-a-douche" conversation in the doctor's lounge. They have a waiting room full of patients, their schedules are booked out for weeks or months, and they just simply don't care that you don't like the question. Their egos will demand that they practice medicine the way they think is most appropriate. God complex? I don't know but I certainly can see why people think that. A lot of people view health care as a basic right. Consequently they tend to view their doctors as public servants. As I said earlier, it just doesn't work that way and that pisses a lot of people off.
The bottom line is...just decline to answer, or find a doctor whose views and practice coincide more closely with yours.
.
If only that were true for Christian bakers.
If a doctor refused service to someone based on a protected civil right, they would have suffered the same set of consequences as Jack Phillips and his wife.
Averageman
09-18-16, 09:43
If a doctor refused service to someone based on a protected civil right, they would have suffered the same set of consequences as Jack Phillips and his wife.
I treat a Doctor or in my case a P.A. just like I would treat my Mechanic. If I have an issue, I look in to it, if I think I'm getting some B.S. I get another P.A.
I've had to get up and put my boots on and walk out the door about a plantar fasciitis issue I was having. I don''t need a referral for six months down the road when I'm in pain today. Neither do I need to hear his personal foot stories.
Can you help me?
No, I could, but I can't give you the shot, it is policy.
Thanks, that's all I need to know.
Bye!
I treat a Doctor or in my case a P.A. just like I would treat my Mechanic. If I have an issue, I look in to it, if I think I'm getting some B.S. I get another P.A.
I've had to get up and put my boots on and walk out the door about a plantar fasciitis issue I was having. I don''t need a referral for six months down the road when I'm in pain today. Neither do I need to hear his personal foot stories.
Can you help me?
No, I could, but I can't give you the shot, it is policy.
Thanks, that's all I need to know.
Bye!
Generally, PAs can only practice within the parameters dictated by their supervising physician.
Plantar fasciitis can be a bitch.
Averageman
09-18-16, 10:00
I can understand that, but I pay (through my Insurance) to see a Doctor who can do these things. So the PA needs to go get the Doctor to allow him to give the shot, or for the Doctor to do it.
It's a nut roll and I'm paying twice, once in hourly wages lost and the second in my out of pocket expense to be told, "Nope can't do that."
Good thing I go to Church with a Podiatrist, I can see him Wednesday at 8:00 which is a lot better than December.
I can understand that, but I pay (through my Insurance) to see a Doctor who can do these things. So the PA needs to go get the Doctor to allow him to give the shot, or for the Doctor to do it.
It's a nut roll and I'm paying twice, once in hourly wages lost and the second in my out of pocket expense to be told, "Nope can't do that."
Good thing I go to Church with a Podiatrist, I can see him Wednesday at 8:00 which is a lot better than December.
Depends on the doctor. If you were seeing someone in some primary care specialty, injections or other such therapeutic procedures may very well not be part their skill set and therefore they might not allow the PA's they supervise to do them, even if that PA happened to know how. Injections for plantar fasciitis are pretty much an end-of-the-line therapy and most doctors I know would have referred you to a podiatrist or foot/ankle orthopedist by the time it got to that point where injections were needed.
It's not substantially different than going to your doctor or his PA with that right upper quadrant pain you keep getting after a fatty meal or that pain in your groin. You take the time off, go to you family doctor (or his PA), and are told "it's your gallbladder/hernia". Your primary care doctor can't fix that problem either. You'll go through the same time-off-work routine when they send you to the surgeon that can definitively address the problem.
,
What does my Doctor know about firearms? That's like asking your attorney for an engine knock diagnosis.
You can be rude, even crude, to your doctor or his/her nurse with the thought that they will go complain to their "boss" that they want to stop asking that question. That won't happen even if they actually have a boss in the conventional sense (very few do). They likely won't even report it. It's will just be a "what-a-douche" conversation in the doctor's lounge. They have a waiting room full of patients, their schedules are booked out for weeks or months, and they just simply don't care that you don't like the question. Their egos will demand that they practice medicine the way they think is most appropriate. God complex? I don't know but I certainly can see why people think that. A lot of people view health care as a basic right. Consequently they tend to view their doctors as public servants. As I said earlier, it just doesn't work that way and that pisses a lot of people off.
The bottom line is...just decline to answer, or find a doctor whose views and practice coincide more closely with yours.
What? You mean that we are not running a glorified Burger King were people can just show up, order their own tests, and have it their way?
Notice how impassioned people got in the Hillary thread when they were using Google to suggest diagnostic possibilities. I can't imagine that the emotion is any less when dealing with their own medical issues or emotion-provoking issues like firearms.
What does my Doctor know about firearms? That's like asking your attorney for an engine knock diagnosis.
Nobody in this thread disagrees with you.
Nobody in this thread disagrees with you.
One must actually read the thread to know this however...
We ran into this from time time but has been some time ago...answer was always the same, "no, but if you have some literature like you do on keeping these 5 gallon buckets & poisons in the house, I'll be glad to look them over." To me, this is really the approach the dr's who have the concern should take. More kids die w/ these buckets / poisons & none of them ever gave us any sermon. Make some pamphlets & get to doctoring.
I think it may be more of a regional issue...this was a pretty hot topic when it came out but don't hear about it any more.
Hmac, I can understand your opposition to the rude sexual remarks, but simply saying "no" or "none of your business" doesn't stop this problem. It is wrong for them to be asking, and its not relevant to offering medical care. Further, telling someone to simply leave and find another Doc, is not realistic either. Sometimes this is not an option due to insurance restrictions, health problems, geography, or a whole host of other possible reasons. Telling someone to leave and find another Doc is the equivalent, in my mind, of all those people that tell everyone else to pack up and leave their home state every time a new gun law they don't like passes. Just not practical. And beside all of that, as you noted, the waiting rooms of the Docs are filled and they've got appointments booked weeks or months in advance. If I simply walk out of their office, they won't care. Won't hurt them one bit, and the questions will continue to get asked.
This practice of inserting an anti-gun political agenda into my medical care needs to stop. We need to complain about it, voice our opposition and convince the people making these policies that they shouldn't. Now you know how the medical profession works, so what are the chances of me getting on the phone with any of the A-holes making these policies that instruct the nurses to ask these intrusive, irrelevant questions? Even if I did talk to them, what are the chances they listen to one word I said? Right. Nada. You know who they will listen to? 5000 underlings that are sick of getting the push-back from guys like docsherm. If the nurses and the doctors, like you, get offended, verbally berated, and your customers all get pissed off when asked these questions, these questions will stop getting asked. Does it suck for the nurse who is just following orders? Yes. Does it piss off the docs like you? Of course. The nurse wouldn't be getting a rude response if she wasn't being told to ask inappropriate, irrelevant, intrusive, politically driven questions. We can't get to the higher ups that make the policy, so our justifiable displeasure, anger and frustration is deposited squarely in the lap of the unfortunate messenger standing before us in the medical office. The hope… MY hope, is that the nurses and people like you will convey the message to "cease and desist" back up the chain to the jack-asses who are making you do their progressive bidding. (I realize that you, personally, are not asking these question in your own practice, but I'm referring here in this post to the Docs that do.)
I am all for exercising common courtesy and decency, but I've yet to read a solution to this problem written by you. If you don't like docsherm's tactic, what better, more effective tactic should we all be using to put a stop to this progressive non-sense?
How would you deal with any other business whose business practices you don't like? Do that.
At the point of care in the office? I already proposed the solution. Several times, actually. "I prefer not to answer". You could add, "I am opposed to you asking the question, I don't think it's relevant". You could also add "I'm so offended by the question that I'm going to find another doctor".
How would you deal with any other business whose business practices you don't like? Do that.
At the point of care in the office? I already proposed the solution. "I prefer not to answer". You could add, "I am opposed to you asking the question, I don't think it's relevant".
True. But no rationale person would view such a response as anything but a confirmation veiled in denial.
Moose-Knuckle
09-19-16, 03:14
Like many other issues on M4C, there's a tendency to ascribe some level of conspiracy behind this whole asking-about-guns thing, but there's not.
That is due to the nature of the current administration and the previous anti-gun administrations attempting to create some sort of back door gun registration. Health care in this country is being federalized, we don't even know yet the far reaching effects Obamacare will have in years to come (after he is out of office). It's not out of the realm of possibilities that under some section of the 20,000 pages of the Affordable Health Care Act that some sort of regulations regarding "firearms and public health" has been underhandedly written into the law.
Also there is the "War on Veterans" where our .gov is attempting to implement gun control on a limited basis under the guise of "mental health" concerning combat Veterans and PTSD.
Then there are tales such as this . . .
California city seizes woman's guns over husband's mental health
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/23/city-san-jose-seizes-guns-from-woman-prompts-lawsuit.html
Moose-Knuckle
09-19-16, 03:17
If a doctor refused service to someone based on a protected civil right, they would have suffered the same set of consequences as Jack Phillips and his wife.
So if a MD refused to service Doc Sherm because he asked what they perceived to be an offense question to their nurse how is that not violating his First Amendment rights?
True. But no rationale person would view such a response as anything but a confirmation veiled in denial.
Then just say "no". There's no legal penalty for lying to your doctor. You hire him to do a job. He works for you.
.
So if a MD refused to service Doc Sherm because he asked what they perceived to be an offense question to their nurse how is that not violating his First Amendment rights?
There's no Constitutional guarantee that that doctor or that nurse, or any private business, have to provide service to anyone. They can ask him to leave for any reason as long as it doesn't violate EMTALA or infringe on his civil rights. Docsherm can say whatever he wants to whomever he wants. He just needs to be prepared to accept the consequences.
.
Averageman
09-19-16, 08:02
There's no Constitutional guarantee that that doctor or that nurse, or any private business, have to provide service to anyone. They can ask him to leave for any reason as long as it doesn't violate EMTALA or infringe on his civil rights. He can say whatever he wants to whomever he wants. He just needs to be prepared to accept the consequences.
.
Except unlike most private business's you paid upfront and your insurance will be billed, like the service or not.
Correct?
So drive your Truck in to the Dealership and pay up front. Then you get some questions irrelevant to your vehicle that border on being a political agenda. You get mad and leave, but you don't get your money back.
Kind of, "not too cool" aint it?
Except unlike most private business's you paid upfront and your insurance will be billed, like the service or not.
Correct?
So drive your Truck in to the Dealership and pay up front. Then you get some questions irrelevant to your vehicle that border on being a political agenda. You get mad and leave, but you don't get your money back.
Kind of, "not too cool" aint it?
It would vary from practice to practice. Around here, if no service is delivered, no bill is submitted and co-pays are refunded in the very rare circumstance that a physician refuses to see a registered patient. I have a little button on the EHR "Level of Service" page that automatically voids the ticket and nothing gets sent to the billing office. In the case of Medicare or Medicaid, submitting a bill in that situation would constitute Medicare fraud. Other practices might feel that it's appropriate to bill something for the time and personnel involved in the registration process and the appointment slot that ended up vacant, but in my experience that's pretty rare. In any case, the patient can always dispute the bill and get any copays refunded later. They shouldn't have to pay anything if no services are rendered.
.
So, Hmac, how is your BP doing as you respond with reason and civility to all of this?
It's a muddy area that most people who aren't in Medicine don't clearly understand. I'm glad to be able to add some clarity, maybe dispel some misconceptions. Ignorance about medical practice and procedure is pretty common, in part due to the complexities imposed by state and Federal insurance procedures, and in part because doctors haven't done much to demonstrate what's actually behind the curtain. In the absence of facts and information, the imagination does run rampant, especially on the internet.
My blood pressure's fine. My life has revolved around managing stress for decades.
In your opinion (and mine). But there are a lot of doctors out there who feel differently. Almost all of the specialty organizations in the US have clear position statements about guns and in some cases it shapes the way they practice. Many doctors actually believe that guns in America represent a public health problem, and one for which they bear some responsibility to address. Like many other issues on M4C, there's a tendency to ascribe some level of conspiracy behind this whole asking-about-guns thing, but there's not. It's mostly doctors practicing medicine in the way that they think fulfills a responsibility that they take very seriously. There's no broad-based external compulsion to do so.
As part of that conspiracy-assumption, fingers get pointed at the AMA because it's historically been the most visible physician organization, but in reality less then 15% of US doctors are even members. Doctors are so politically fractionated (internal medical politics) that there can be no organization that represents them all. There isn't an organization anywhere in the US the represents more than 15% of all doctors.
Imagine the power that a broad-based union for physicians would have. It will never happen. Doctors are too independent. They can't all conclude what's best for Medicine, because each specialty, each state, each community each practice each doctor has different needs, perceptions, and opinions. And nobody can lead them. Organizing doctors is typically described as "trying to herd cats". It's especially a problem because they're cats with big egos. The control that can be exerted on them by the Feds, the states, the corporation that employs them is limited because they are hard to replace, because, ultimately, they control health care delivery at the point of care, and because they are the ones that generate the revenue for that corporation/hospital/clinic.
.
While I agree with all of this....
Even though the membership of the AMA is less than 15% (of all physicians) and it is true it doesn't speak for the entirety of medicine, it gives the appearance to the general public that it does. It is loud, it is well-published, and it makes the news. So when it has a president like Richard Corlin who is an anti and who speaks so vociferously on the topic, it gives the appearance to the general public that he is speaking for all physicians. And just as the AMA doesn't speak on behalf of all physicians, the American Academy of Pediatrics doesn't speak on behalf of all pediatricians (as some of anecdotal evidence even on this thread suggests), but it is a very loud, anti-gun voice. So when taken as sum of all if its parts, it's easy to see why people cast a conspiracy-laden eye toward all of medicine as being anti-gun (even though the truth may suggest different).
BTW, I have sat in more than a few multi-discipline meetings and they can't even agree on what to have for lunch. I know full-well that as a large group of practitioners across lines and borders there are many things about which "medicine" won't get consensus.
While I agree with all of this....
Even though the membership of the AMA is less than 15% (of all physicians) and it is true it doesn't speak for the entirety of medicine, it gives the appearance to the general public that it does. It is loud, it is well-published, and it makes the news. So when it has a president like Richard Corlin who is an anti and who speaks so vociferously on the topic, it gives the appearance to the general public that he is speaking for all physicians. And just as the AMA doesn't speak on behalf of all physicians, the American Academy of Pediatrics doesn't speak on behalf of all pediatricians (as some of anecdotal evidence even on this thread suggests), but it is a very loud, anti-gun voice. So when taken as sum of all if its parts, it's easy to see why people cast a conspiracy-laden eye toward all of medicine as being anti-gun (even though the truth may suggest different).
BTW, I have sat in more than a few multi-discipline meetings and they can't even agree on what to have for lunch. I know full-well that as a large group of practitioners across lines and borders there are many things about which "medicine" won't get consensus.
Yup. All completely true. Doctors don't organize well, so there is no counter-voice to the blather of the AMA.
First off, I'd like to apologize to Hmac, Sensei and the other docs in this thread. Some of my comments were out of line and I regret it. There is some history in my family that causes us trust issues with the medical profession. I've met some extremely good docs (lost one over Obamacare), and some I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. The same follows for nurses and others in the field.
The waiting, billing and perception of bureaucratic omnipotence are all impediments to good relationships with clients. Excellent results can overcome almost anything. Poor results only exacerbate the problem. To be fair, patients are some of their own worst enemies, particularly when not telling all relevant medical information and then not following doctor's orders.
The whole intrusion of a political agenda by the AMA, AAP and the government are simply unacceptable. It's something that's extremely difficult to deal with on an essential service, particularly if you live in an area that pretty much uniformly agrees with those agendas. That perception is reality for many gun owners, until proven otherwise. Sadly, the .gov and medical profession don't much seem to care if it doesn't sit well with patients. That's all I was trying to say. :agree:
I, for one, was actually unaware of how rabidly leftist the American Academy of Pediatricians is. Although they do not speak for every pediatrician, the fo speak for more than 60% of board certified pediatricians in the US. Thus, I'll admit that I learned something new in this thread.
I, for one, was actually unaware of how rabidly leftist the American Academy of Pediatricians is. Although they do not speak for every pediatrician, the fo speak for more than 60% of board certified pediatricians in the US. Thus, I'll admit that I learned something new in this thread.
My kids' peds are cool (sons go to a dude, girls go to a woman). I have had zero interaction with the girls pediatrician, but my son's doc is very conservative, and pretty laissez faire regarding how we want to 'treat' our kids. He is very much anti-AAP, but acknowledges that the practice has to practice under their guidelines.
He relayed a story about a colleague in another state who doesn't push every immunization, was told that if he didn't he would be fired. So he hung his own shingle. As a parent the AAP is the Evil Empire.
First off, I'd like to apologize to Hmac, Sensei and the other docs in this thread. Some of my comments were out of line and I regret it. There is some history in my family that causes us trust issues with the medical profession. I've met some extremely good docs (lost one over Obamacare), and some I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. The same follows for nurses and others in the field.
The waiting, billing and perception of bureaucratic omnipotence are all impediments to good relationships with clients. Excellent results can overcome almost anything. Poor results only exacerbate the problem. To be fair, patients are some of their own worst enemies, particularly when not telling all relevant medical information and then not following doctor's orders.
The whole intrusion of a political agenda by the AMA, AAP and the government are simply unacceptable. It's something that's extremely difficult to deal with on an essential service, particularly if you live in an area that pretty much uniformly agrees with those agendas. That perception is reality for many gun owners, until proven otherwise. Sadly, the .gov and medical profession don't much seem to care if it doesn't sit well with patients. That's all I was trying to say. :agree:
No offense is taken, no apology is necessary. I understand how today's health care morass and the ongoing political intrusion into Medicine can generate anger and suspicion. I see it every day. Nobody likes to be at the mercy of someone else, particularly in a system that is so difficult to wade through.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.