View Full Version : CZ-75 versus Beretta 92 or M9, which one to get?
Doc Safari
09-16-16, 10:05
I kind of lean toward the Beretta since it's the military pistol and I'm more confident that mags/accessories/parts will be available.
What say you?
If you could only have one of the two?
Without question, I would get the CZ. I have an 85b and have shot the Berreta's. The Cz feels much better to me, and I shoot it much better. Magazine avaialbility is a non-issue. As far as parts and accesories are concerned, I don't know. Of course, only you can decide which is better for you.
Dionysusigma
09-16-16, 10:41
Without question, I would get the M9A1. I have a 92FS and have shot the CZs. The Beretta feels much better to me, and I shoot it much better. Magazine avaialbility is a non-issue. As far as parts and accesories are concerned, I don't know. Of course, only you can decide which is better for you.
:D
I'm a big CZ fan. I wouldn't worry much about availability of CZ parts. Tons of surplus has been imported over the last 25 years before you even consider the commercial stuff.
BTW if you decide on the CZ and aren't dead set on new, check CDI Sales on gunbroker. They've got a pile of surplus CZ-75s for the $300-$400 range. I picked up one for $325 intent on refinishing it but it was in good enough shape I decided not to....
http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?IncludeSellers=2621012
Nice link Bro. I'd bet all these are accurate and clean up well. VERY tempting! The compact Mossad is way cool.
I've owned multiple of both and now only have the CZ. Try and shoot both they do feel and shoot a little differently.
Sterling Archer
09-16-16, 11:48
I love my Beretta!
https://gunpowdermeditation.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/img_0034.jpg
It's a great shooter, here's a 10 shot group at 25 yards.
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j356/codenamedutchess007/Beretta%2025Y%201_zps3p8hacdj.jpg
7 of those 10 went into .4"
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j356/codenamedutchess007/Beretta%2025Y%20Best_zpsgdjc8rwx.jpg
Nice link Bro. I'd bet all these are accurate and clean up well. VERY tempting! The compact Mossad is way cool.
I've bought nearly a half dozen guns from them. All came in better than advertised....
In the theme of the thread I'm tempted by one of the Beretta M1951s they have....
I have several CZ-75 variants, a 75B, 75 Pre-B, 75D PCR, Kadet, and a 97B .45. I also have an Italian made Beretta 92FS. I like the 92FS more than my buddy's M9 as I prefer the curved back strap, and the slightly slanted dust cover. The 92FS grip is more comfortable for me than the M9.
That being said, I prefer the CZ-75's over my 92FS as it fits my hand better, and is consistently more accurate for me. No bad choices here though. CZ USA gives great support, and has all the parts you need. There's good aftermarket support with Cajun Gun Works, and CZ Custom.
beretta. Either of them.
Have you ever handled a CZ? Or any handgun where the slide rides inside the frame rather than outside?
I found that manipulating the slide is much harder, especially when hands are dirty/moist when the slide rides inside the frame because there's just less to hold onto.
dirkmagurk
09-16-16, 13:19
I'd personally go with CZ given a choice between the two.
ColtSeavers
09-16-16, 14:18
A word of advice regarding Berettas (or any handgun with integral sights on the frame). If you ever want nght sights, DO NOT get a fixed front sight variation as the NRC is being assinine to Trijicon and another company that used to drill out the front sight and put in a tritium vial by no longer allowing that due to contamination of the entire slide or some garbage.
Get either the m9a3, 92a1 or a WC model.
You can read much more about it on berettaforums.
My vote is for a Beretta, any of the models I listed.
Doc Safari
09-16-16, 14:24
What are the M9A3's going for now?
ColtSeavers
09-16-16, 14:47
$950 - $1050 is what I've read. They go fast I've been reading as well, going to have to keep on it to get one.
92a1 should only be $625 - $675. That's the going rate local to me.
WC model depends on whether you get it from them or a premade model locally and what features/mods/extra stuff is on it.
Of course people know how B's are flat shooting, but so are CZs. I have a few, and 2 weeks ago I was shooting my Transitional with some lighter loads and wow - it was like shooting a 22. At 7-10 yards you could put them through 1 hole as fast as you could pull the trigger. This week, I shot my C100 Tristar lightweight compact, and even though it was a snappy as my P99, it shot flatter - very nice and extremely accurate.
I've had several of each and continue to shoot both. Parts and mags are easier to get for the Beretta. Any support from CZ Custom or Cajun comes under the category of custom gun work, which is a different breed of cat so to speak. CZ USA has parts sometimes, and sometimes it does not. Their terrible customer support for the CZ 1911 destroyed my confidence in the company from the stand point of customer service. I suspect that he who buys a surplus CZ is on his own if factory level repair is needed. Remember that these pistols were declared surplus for a reason.
So what's my recommendation? If you're only going to have one 9mm handgun and you won't be carrying it concealed, get the Beretta. Otherwise, consider one of the alloy frame CZ decocker compacts. But, keep in mind that it may not display the Beretta's reliability. Be aware that the trigger return spring will eventually break(sooner instead of later). Be aware that the slide stop is known for breaking. Be aware that the CZ design is complex and somewhat difficult for he amateur to work on.
I really enjoy owning and shooting my 3 CZ 75's as I did the other CZ variations. However, I don't drink the Kool Aid since I understand what they are: pistols of obsolete design from the communist error and made on machinery that is worn when you consider the very heavy tool mark adoring them.
Doc Safari
09-16-16, 16:22
While we're on the subject, is there really a necessity for the "brigadier" version of the Beretta to enhance durability? Or is this pure marketng horseshit and you should be GTG with a standard version?
CZ every day....speaking of CZ I need to buy another one, looked at 3 different models last week, I should have brought one home.
The only Beretta I liked was the Vertec. I came into a CZ-75 for literally Hi Point pricing in great shape. It is a Pre B and feels like a BHP 2.0. It is way more accurate than I recall a Beretta being and who knows how many rounds Ivan/Artem/Gunter/Jakob/et al put through it before I got it.
I had a fleeting interest in a CZ-97 but ultimately passed.
Aesthetically a Beretta is a prettier pistol and every 80s kid thought they were the ultimate gun.
You can't go wrong because there will always be Beretta mags. Even during the total height of the ban, Beretta mags were usually $15 or so.
I'd just get a CZ surplus. You can get one for under 300 if you look, but the pre-B mags are like 40 dollars.
Mine is a "cuz I like it" pistol and I don't plan on mag hoarding for it. It's really nice. Try to get a mid 80s gun, the late 80s early 90s were more "transitional" and are more mag weird and just look wrong.
Spur hammer and round trigger guard. Those are well into the evil empire time frame.
JM2CW
ColtSeavers
09-16-16, 16:58
While we're on the subject, is there really a necessity for the "brigadier" version of the Beretta to enhance durability? Or is this pure marketng horseshit and you should be GTG with a standard version?
The dovetailed front sight is the true benefit of the brigadier over an m9, m9a1 or other 92 variant with integral fixed front sight IMO. Though the thicker/heavier slide and scallop could be beneficial to reducing recoil and racking.
I don't believe the factory ones come with 3 of Beretta's new 17rd sand resstant mags though like the m9a3 and 92a1 do.
Doc Safari
09-16-16, 17:08
I don't believe the factory ones come with 3 of Beretta's new 17rd sand resstant mags though like the m9a3 and 92a1 do.
Do those mags not fit that receiver?
I've owned CZ's since the early 90's with thousands of rounds through them and never have had a broken trigger return spring, nor broken slide stop. That being said, if that bothers you keep a back up spring and slide stop on hand. The newer ones are better from what I hear, but again, I've never had that issue, nor have several friends that have owned CZ's for years. As far as tool marks, the newer ones do not display any, and CZ has updated their equipment with modern CNC. Even my older CZ's don't have tool mark, but even if they did they are in the inside of the slide, and not visible.
ColtSeavers
09-16-16, 17:22
Do those mags not fit that receiver?
They fit, but for whatever reason, the factory package deal is the package deal, like the m9/m9a1/92fs, they come with whatever they've always come with (I believe 2 of the standard 15rd magazines).
Either way, I'd be recommending Mec-Gars for spares and they come in 18 (flush) and 20 round flavors and are mec-gars. So it's not some huge detriment, just additional info is all.
The only Beretta I liked was the Vertec. I came into a CZ-75 for literally Hi Point pricing in great shape. It is a Pre B and feels like a BHP 2.0. It is way more accurate than I recall a Beretta being and who knows how many rounds Ivan/Artem/Gunter/Jakob/et al put through it before I got it.
I had a fleeting interest in a CZ-97 but ultimately passed.
Aesthetically a Beretta is a prettier pistol and every 80s kid thought they were the ultimate gun.
You can't go wrong because there will always be Beretta mags. Even during the total height of the ban, Beretta mags were usually $15 or so.
I'd just get a CZ surplus. You can get one for under 300 if you look, but the pre-B mags are like 40 dollars.
Mine is a "cuz I like it" pistol and I don't plan on mag hoarding for it. It's really nice. Try to get a mid 80s gun, the late 80s early 90s were more "transitional" and are more mag weird and just look wrong.
Spur hammer and round trigger guard. Those are well into the evil empire time frame.
JM2CW
pre b guns can be made to take b mags with very minor modification. few minutes with a stone or file in the right spot
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pre b guns can be made to take b mags with very minor modification. few minutes with a stone or file in the right spo
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Mec Gar mags fit both the 75B, and Pre-B. I have both and use my excellent Mec Gars for both. No need to take a file to a Pre-B.
I remember that the Border Patrol at one time specified the Brigadier's heavier slide for its 40 S&W Berettas. 25 years ago during a phone conversation with a Beretta factory rep, he described the Brigadier as a range gun. I suspect that this variation came about in response to the 92F slide breakage issues which Beretta laid off as an ammo problem. My unqualified opinion is that the thicker slide was never necessary. It has been said that the 40 S&W version would not withstand this caliber's bashing with or without the thicker slide.
Is not IG a Beretta armorer? Perhaps he can comment on regular vs. the Brigadier slide.
MecGar mags will fit some preBs and NOT others. PreB mag wells vary. Mine will only take early mags. (I MAY mod it though - this only came into 'vogue' in the past 5 tears).
CZs are reliable and durable. BUT, you might get a bad trigger return spring. Ask me, I broke about 7-8 in a 3 year stretch in various guns. CZ can put out bad TRS. But as per above, most don't run into this. It is the ONE part of the CZ that I don't like. Replacing one in a non-Omega decocker is a pain. Safety model is not so bad. Detail stripping is not bad and easy in the Omega.
Slide stop breaking is WAY overblown. Many competitors go tens of thousands of rounds before replacing them. MUCH more durable than a Beretta locking block.
The Beretta WILL have a better trigger - period. PreBs can have very good OTB triggers - very smooth DA and a light SA. But, many can have what I call 'variable creep' - they don't always break the same way in SA. I've seen MANY P01s with very gritty DA triggers OTB. Some get trigger jobs by CZ custom, but this is not cheap when you include shipping. From my experience Berettas have smooth DA and crisp SA triggers OTB. I'll say this though - you CAn shoot the CZ trigger well - it just doesn't feel as refined as a SIG or Beretta. I do have a transitional CZ that has an excellent trigger, but I polished the nonsense out of the DA. I'd like to hear MORE about the new Omega P01s, etc. The Omega trigger is easier to detail strip and polish - this is key. Some use Cajun Gunworks trigger kits to good use, to lighten the springs - works for many. But again, the 92 trigger will be more refined OTB.
As I understand it, CZ CS has improved MUCH over the past several years. I think they now cover shipping both ways. Years ago this was NOT the case.
SomeOtherGuy
09-16-16, 21:23
I own examples of both. I keep the 92 as an example in my collection. I shoot the CZ-75 every chance I get, and it's probably my favorite shooting pistol. Well, either the actual CZ-75 or the Armalite AR-24 which is a high quality clone (since discontinued).
Current production CZ pistols are high quality, made on modern equipment. CZ-USA provides good support - probably better than you will get from Beretta. And you'll pay a little over half as much for a new CZ-75 vs. a new Beretta of the types you mentioned.
FYI, I would look at the CZ SP-01, which is basically the standard CZ-75 with a modified frame that has an accessory rail. If you want a standard looking CZ-75 I would get the Omega model, which has newer and simplified lockwork. I have CZs with both types of lockwork and don't find any drawback to the Omega version in either SA or DA.
Not fan of either guns. Cz is superior designed but more maching marks than Beretta. I would much rather cz and install tall sights on it due to insufficient slide area to reliably rack then replace any parts that isnt up to snuff and test fire 500-1000round before completely trusting my life to it.
davidjinks
09-16-16, 21:52
These were purchased today, NIB. There were a couple CZ's in the case. The Beretta's felt more natural in my hands.
The safeties don't bother me. Parts, magazines etc. can be found all over the net and locally.
EDITED TO ADD:
The 92A1 is Italian and the M9 is U.S. Made.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/davidjinks/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsetw0qofu.jpeg (http://s91.photobucket.com/user/davidjinks/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsetw0qofu.jpeg.html)
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/davidjinks/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsnr7wexpl.jpeg (http://s91.photobucket.com/user/davidjinks/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsnr7wexpl.jpeg.html)
Nightstalker865
09-17-16, 07:48
I vote for Beretta. The 92A1 has the advantage of the front sight, but the frame on the M9A1 feels much better in the hand. At least it does to me.
If you can swing a 92G-SD or Wilson 92G Brig TAC, you get the best of both worlds. The brig slide really does soak up recoil and they are obnoxiously soft shooting, even with full power NATO loads.
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crusader377
09-17-16, 08:30
I own both and both are great pistols. I think the CZ75 series has somewhat better ergonomics for most people and is better suited for the various gun games. That said I think the Beretta 92 is a overall higher quality gun and more reliable and my nightstand pistol is a Beretta 92.
I own both, a Beretta Vertec, and a CZ pcr..I like the Beretta more. My biggest complaint with the CZ is it's longish LOP, I have to reach to get my finger on the trigger, with the Beretta, it's just right. The Beretta is a much smoother pistol to shoot. Parts, and mag availabilty from mutipule sources is a big plus for the Beretta.
Horned Toad
09-18-16, 22:40
Beretta is the only pistol I have ever owned where I could actually shoot better than the gun. I would never spend money on one. Shooting these is like cheating.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm48/azhtrgr/TS_zpsz6fzod4a.jpg (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/azhtrgr/media/TS_zpsz6fzod4a.jpg.html)
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm48/azhtrgr/SPO_zps4xwn8xhx.jpg (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/azhtrgr/media/SPO_zps4xwn8xhx.jpg.html)
I gotta say, go with Beretta. Easily... IMHO, the M9A3 is the best model out there. I sold my Wilson Brigadier and bought a 2nd one...
http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/8c2f1860826b1db067280642cc27a991.jpg
As you know, I love the "Wheel" Shipwreck! Those Berettas are beautiful. I need to do a "Wheel O's CZ's!" as I am down to only three Berettas now. 92FS, 85FS, 87BB.
I would vote for the CZ. If you added the CZ P09 it would win hands down, in fact it has become my EDC. I carried for years a Hi Power and own 2 high end custom Hi Powers and a clone, I have a warm place for Hi Powers as it was my issue pistol for most of my career. I then went to Glocks as it became my issue gun.
Now my eyes have started to go, it it has been a Glock with RMR.
I have some travel over the next 2 months then I will send 3 CZ pistols to get milled for RD.
I don't see me using any other pistol for the rest of my life, CZ all the way into my grave.
dfwsheepdog
09-19-16, 13:11
I kind of lean toward the Beretta since it's the military pistol and I'm more confident that mags/accessories/parts will be available.
What say you?
If you could only have one of the two?
I would suggest the m9a3 only because when I served I used the m9 and they fixed all the issues I could find with it on the a3. Cz is a solid product, been around and have been trusted to save lives for a long time. I ask myself this question when looking at a new gun: if society breaks down what gun and or piece of kit would have the most parts available if I needed to find them or scavenge (mags, springs ect). I have a glock and an ar for that reason
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KalashniKEV
09-20-16, 20:15
Mec Gar mags fit both the 75B, and Pre-B. I have both and use my excellent Mec Gars for both. No need to take a file to a Pre-B.
Mec Gars don't fit 95% of Pre-Bs.
I have one that will accept them (and Kadet mags) and one that won't.
I need to do a "Wheel O's CZ's!" as I am down to only three Berettas now. 92FS, 85FS, 87BB.
Wheel of CZ:
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/Pistols/20160920_210522_zpsfcumamox.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/Kalashnikev/media/Pistols/20160920_210522_zpsfcumamox.jpg.html)
need to do a wheel with my cz collection. Thus far I have:
52
70
75
82
83
Evo
and a Dan Wesson Valor. I want some of the earlier CZs but people nearly want your first born for those...
Although Beretta makes great guns I'm a CZ fan. They just fit my hands better and seem to hit where I aim.
I want some of the earlier CZs but people nearly want your first born for those...
My earliest CZ is a 1991 CZ-75 Pre-B I found New in Box on Gunbroker a while back. It is my favorite pistol, and I didn't have to pay an arm and a leg for it.
Mec Gars don't fit 95% of Pre-Bs.
I have one that will accept them (and Kadet mags) and one that won't.
Wheel of CZ:
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/Pistols/20160920_210522_zpsfcumamox.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/Kalashnikev/media/Pistols/20160920_210522_zpsfcumamox.jpg.html)
Nice Wheel O' CZ's! My 1991 Pre-B takes the Mec-Gar mags. It will not take the CZ mags that came with my 1996 Turkish overrun 75B. Guess I got lucky. Good info. Thanks!
My earliest CZ is a 1991 CZ-75 Pre-B I found New in Box on Gunbroker a while back. It is my favorite pistol, and I didn't have to pay an arm and a leg for it.
when I say old I'm talking really old. like a cz-27
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/585481555
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terrible picture but a few of my older ones
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160921/f1f8c0a052885e09f8a7cd956a227e0a.jpg
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KalashniKEV
09-21-16, 08:20
pre b guns can be made to take b mags with very minor modification. few minutes with a stone or file in the right spot
I'm curious to know the right spot- I haven't found a good tutorial online.
Although I do have a few Pre-B mags (didn't know they were for a long time) and I probably shouldn't mess with it...
It will not take the CZ mags that came with my 1996 Turkish overrun 75B.
My CZ-75B with the wood grips is a Turkish overrun.
I paid $335 for it brand new. I had just turned 21 and I used a letter for health insurance purposes from the university registrar certifying that I was a matriculated student. I was all nervous during the transfer... Ha.
I'm a NY'er.
terrible picture but a few of my older ones
I had a really nice CZ-82 a while back- like new. I put wood grips on it and carried it... it wouldn't group at all though. Weird.
I also never liked the unbalanced feel... the bulkier slide on the Beretta 84 actually helps balance things out with the short, double stack grip.
I'm curious to know the right spot- I haven't found a good tutorial online.
Although I do have a few Pre-B mags (didn't know they were for a long time) and I probably shouldn't mess with it...
Have you seen this one? I haven't had need to try it since my transitional has taken every mag I've thrown at it thus far...
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=39056.0
I had a really nice CZ-82 a while back- like new. I put wood grips on it and carried it... it wouldn't group at all though. Weird.
I also never liked the unbalanced feel... the bulkier slide on the Beretta 84 actually helps balance things out with the short, double stack grip.
I haven't tried to group mine other than I can put it on 6" steel @ 25 consistently. Mine is one of the gunsmith specials that J&G has. It only wants to do DA sometimes. Got the parts to repair it, just haven't gotten around to it....
I've got a Beretta 84 and like it too. That's a slick little pistol.
A CZ 82/3 that won't group is a non sequitur. Something is wrong. They are lasers.
KalashniKEV
09-21-16, 11:06
A CZ 82/3 that won't group is a non sequitur. Something is wrong. They are lasers.
I don't think you know what non-sequitur means.
It looked unissued, had a nice trigger and a good snappy safety, and just didn't shoot straight.
Before I sold it, I put it head to head with a Bulgarian Makarov and the results were not even close. The Makarov is a fantastic handgun though...
KalashniKEV
09-21-16, 11:08
Have you seen this one? I haven't had need to try it since my transitional has taken every mag I've thrown at it thus far...
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=39056.0
No, but that's exactly what I need!
Now I have to decide whether to do it or not.
Really, CZ and MecGar should just go back to the original pattern. There were no reliability issues and it was stupid to change it.
I own a Beretta 92FS Brigadier, a 92FS Stainless and a 92S. I have more CZ's and CZ clones than I can remember off the top of my head. Hands down I'd choose a CZ or CZ clone because their manual safeties operate more naturally than the Beretta slide mounted safeties. In addition, I've found the CZ's and clones to be more accurate and they just feel better in my hands. When it comes to looks though, I do have to say that the Berettas are the best looking pistols made.
Just bought a CZ75 D PCR.model.Needless to say I will be buying another.
Mine has a loaded chamber indicator which I like very much. I balked at the idea first but changed my mind. When I first got it and began shooting, the trigger "slapped" my trigger finger and soon became unpleasant. This trigger slap is not unknown to CZs but soon disappeared. Explanations for it are not precise, and I don't understand the event.
ramairthree
09-30-16, 11:34
Right now,
I would go Beretta.
If Beretta continues to not get their act together with options and models,
And CZ continues along their current path,
That may very well reverse in ten years.
With Beretta you get issues like hate for a slide mounted decocker, and most models with a fixed front sight, and expensive parts and iffy availability. But the world is full of holsters, mags, etc.
With CZ you get issues like the short vertical slide surface to manipulate and older guns / mags not interchange with newer guns / mags. With even more expensive parts and ifier availability.
To be frank,
The rise in CZ popularity in my opinion is due to their responsiveness to Production and SSP and giving the market what they want at excellent prices. Beretta blew this off to put their resources into trying to tell the market what it wanted,
And we get the dead 90-two, Cougar, and 9000 lines, and the still trying to resuscitate PX4 line.
There is only so much metal gun, hammer fired DA/SA market out there.
And CZ has taken Beretta to school on it.
To be frank,
The rise in CZ popularity in my opinion is due to their responsiveness to Production and SSP and giving the market what they want at excellent prices.
I'd add that Tanfoglio (EAA Witness in the US) first started giving CZ a run for their money by offering many different configurations and chamberings that CZ didn't.
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