View Full Version : Would I be dissappointed with a SIG
threeheadeddog
09-07-08, 17:11
I am a very happy 1911 owner. I shoot primarrily a 1911 in .45 for IDPA/IPSC and carry a 1911 in 10mm everytime I walk out the door. I also have a strong liking for the CZ line of pistols and shoot a SP-01 for both defensive uses and competition. I have always been a Cocked-N-Locked kind of guy and the pistols I use are reflective of the smallish(narrow) framed full size pistols.
Having said that I have always found the SIGs to be absolutely beautiful. I have resisted the urge to buy one for some time now. The question is simple... If I were to buy a SIG 220 stainless elite(I hate alloy pistols) and was willing to spend the money to make sure it worked by sending it to Grayguns for reliability work would I still be dissipointed in the pistol. I am willing to try the DA/SA thing and have actually been practicing it with my SP-01 just in case I try a SIG, but going away from 1911's has me a little worried since they are supposed to be the pinnicle of handguns(or so often quoted as such).
befor I ramble too much I am just going to stop. Any suggestions or insight would be appreciated.
Ty for your time
3-DOG
Line Rider
09-07-08, 17:25
I have a P-220 and P-226 W. German made never had a problem with either. :D
GastonG-NoVa
09-07-08, 17:28
I love the 1911, but my job got me shooting Glocks. It seems like most 1911 shooters that cheat on their 1911s, cheat using Glocks.
I wouldn't buy a current Sig/boat anchor.....hehehe. I am partial to my glock 23 or if you want a .45 go with a G30. Awesome out of the box, reliability job done before you open the box. For the money you save, go get a second......Everyone needs a brace of Glocks!!!!
threeheadeddog
09-07-08, 17:52
I have never had a prob out of a .45 1911 my 10mm was a bit of a prob befor it got worked out. The thing is I wont save any money by buying something else as I simply dont need anything else. I have a mp45 with a nice 3lb trigger pull and an couple of 1911 as well as a nice 9mm for cheap ammo. I just am drawn to the 220. But I have bought things befor(like the mp45) that i just cant get enthusiastic about after having shot cz/1911's for so long. Is it simply going to be the same if i buy a SIG? Does it have any redeaming qualities?
I did shoot a very old 226 that had horrible muzzle flip. Will the beavertail make this better? How about the weight of stainless?
I guess that I probably know better and am either trying to justify a purchase or stop a silly impulse buy before I drop $$ only to sell it at a loss later(I have done this with 2 glocks, an hk usp, and will likely sell the mp45).
The only real "need" I have for another .45 is that I currently have mine set up the way I want them but have a .45 suppressor on the way and would like another host(the mp45 was going to be one but my lackluster impression of it combined with storm lake being behind on release make it not as appealing or practicle.
I own a 226 elite stainless and wouldn't recommend it as a carry gun because of the weight. I have it as a duty weapon and its still heavy on a duty belt with keepers. I'm seriously considering going to an alloy sig just because of this, the weight is that noticeable. Great gun though, coming from a glock it took me a while to get used to the DA to SA transition, but the SRT trigger is worth it.
threeheadeddog
09-07-08, 18:59
I have in fact been searching and reading todds posts regarding the 220. I was hoping for his input here as well. I know he has extensive experience both as an employee and a shooter as well as knowledg on "sig guru things"since he was a part of sig culture and may be able to speak on greyguns work in relation to reliability(though I have only heard good things).
I am mostly interested in shooting impressions of the gun, provided greyguns can make it bulletproof.
I guess I should have been more specific in first post but I also wanted a broad opinion.
Is the cun confortable in reguards to recoil?(such as ...1911's,glocks's,cz's generrally have very little muzzle rise and are very easy to track front sight rise through the recoil motion and back to target.)
Is there any major manipulation or mechanicall problems not necessarly associated with reliability?(I had heard ealy 220 mags wouldnt drop free...but new ones are fine)
As someone who practices constantly and is willing to buy and get "fixed" two guns if longevety demands it, will my drill times suffer?
Mostly my concerns about buying the gun stem from a horrible experience from a USP45. I kept reading that it was a solid gun but that trigger reset sucked and that muzzle rise was excessive for the round, but I ignored everyone thinking that these issues were only for "super fast grand master types" only too buy one and relize that the gun simply held me back in terms of speed and ability to deal with targets.(I shoot for accuracy and speed but no matter how accurate a pistol is if I am dropping serious time on drills than it is showing me that I am simply not as capable with that handgun.
Wow... Sorry for not taking a breath.
And I do thank all of you for your posts and the time you are taking to help me.
Robb Jensen
09-07-08, 19:04
Personally I see more problems with newer stainless slide 220s that I ever do the older folded metal carbon steel slide 220s. Other than the SRT trigger on the Elite 220s I have no use for the all stainless 'boat anchor' heavy 220 Elite or any of the Elites for that matter.
Just like I prefer the older P6/225s, 228s and 226s, I prefer the older 220s (post hammer rebound spring).
threeheadeddog
09-07-08, 19:59
boat anchor? What is the weight on these things anyway?
BTW my sp-01 which i carry sometimes and use regularly weights something like 42 oz(i know that it is like 39.5ish without the heavy rubber grips).
Let's see....
I started shooting a semi-auto with a SA/DA, way back when. Stayed away from 1911's because all my "expert" friends said they were terrible and a waste of time and money (late 1960's/early '70's). Stayed away from 1911's and had a succession of P9S, Sig 226 and others. Traded for a 1911 and was getting ready to trade it off, when a buddy of mine suggested I should shoot it at the very least before it left my possession. I tried it and actually kinda liked it, but still got rid of it. Fast forward a bit and now I'm shooting IPSC and of course using a 1911. Really fell in love with it, especially the trigger. I did do some work on the trigger by trading parts (hammer and sear, springs), the usual type of things. Stopped shooting IPSC due to various reasons, traded off the gun. Fast forward a bit more and I'm back shooting again, but not in competition, just for fun. Traded for a HK Mk23 so I could have a suppressed .45. Shot it and hate the long trigger. So were does this long post lead to? You guessed it, right back to a 1911. Best trigger ever in a semi-auto. And that's where me and the gun interface, at the trigger. So, I'd stay with something, that IMHO is the best human/machine interface even designed. .02
Some thoughts:
A SIG isn't a 1911 (except the SIG 1911's, and even those are questionable :cool:). It should work out of the box without needing some gunsmith to make it work for a few more hundred dollars. If it doesn't work, send it back to the factory and make them fix it for free. This is true for SIG as well as Glock, Smith, H&K, etc. You're buying a gun, not a craft kit.
Having shot them side by side many times, my preference is for the Al-frame guns. I can shoot them as fast, move them from target to target faster, and they're much more comfortable to carry. In my experience, the Al-frame version also tends to be more durable.
The beavertail will not help you with muzzle flip. The design is a poor one that actually pushes your hand down lower than you could get with a non-beavertail version. It also blocks your thumb from reaching the hammer while holstering. Pressing down on the hammer when putting the gun in the holster is a valuable safety habit.
If you do decide to get one, it's probably worth looking around for one with the newer external extractor. On the downside, it's completely unproven. On the upside, it doesn't have the lousy reputation of the previous internal extractor.
As a long-time 1911 shooter, the trigger is probably not going to be to your liking. With proper instruction and training you can shoot a DA/SA gun very well, but it will definitely be a challenge compared to a tuned 1911 until you get in that practice.
You might want to take a closer look at the H&K HK45 and the S&W M&P45 as more modern designs. The HK45 would give you the ability to practice DA/SA while also using it in cocked-and-locked configuration.
The first Sig I ever shot was when I entered Fed Law Enforcement in 1991. The issue gun was and still is the P-220. I've been issued 3 different generations so far and only had issues with the second. First one had the spur hammer and the sweetest trigger of all of them, 100% reliable. Second, I had a hard time getting it to function properly but I did get it done. Third, nothing special, it works, it hits, its a tool. I have others, Glocks and Colt 1911 and I never considered the Sig DA/SA a handicap, I have 17 years of training behind it. A couple years ago I conducted a experiment, I shot my agency qual with a 220, Glock-30(my off-duty carry gun), and a Colt 1911(slightly modified). I was more comfortable with the 220 and I shot the highest score with the 220. As far as carry, I've concealed the 220 with ease from N Dakota winters to summers in Las Vegas due to the quality leather issued by my agency. All that being said it looks like my agency will be switching to M&P 45 soon.
All that being said it looks like my agency will be switching to M&P 45 soon.
Seems that way. I guess the hard look some folks were taking at a P226R in 357 didn't really go anywhere.
Probably the big driver on the requirement of a .45 is the fact that we have a stock pile of 10 million rounds of .45 so a caliber change is not an option.
threeheadeddog
09-08-08, 15:53
Thanks to everyone for there imput. I may hold off for a while. It may simple be in my best interest to just shoot the M&P45 and 1911's that I have and hold off on another 45 purchase(but of course buying guns if fun:D). At the very least I will wait untill I get a chance to put some rounds through one before blindly buying one.
Thank you all again for your time and help
3-DOG
The manual safeties had problems early on. No idea what their current status is, since I literally never see them.
My primary objection to the manual safeties on the P220 (and P226): the safety lever blocks access to the slide release. It's all but impossible to drop the slide with the lever.
MarshallDodge
09-08-08, 22:05
Next to the 1911 they are my favorite. :cool:
http://home.comcast.net/~fun2shoot/sig/sigfamily.jpg
I gotta be honest, as a former SIG junkie that still owns a pair of 226s, I wouldnt touch a P220, especially the newer ones.
I gotta be honest, as a former SIG junkie that still owns a pair of 226s, I wouldnt touch a P220, especially the newer ones.
Same here. The new external extractors on the 220x continue to field FTF issues, mostly due to what seems to be lowered finishing standards around the breech face, and barrel throat/feed ramp.
The latest SIG issue is takedown lever failure, although it hasn't been made clear if this breakage will render the weapon inoperable in the short term.
It seems that the general direction taken by SIG in the last few years is cutting corners and penny pinching, to where the burning question lying under the surface for some SIG shooters is: What's next? I have no doubt that its still possible to acquire a proper workmanlike (non 220) P series SIG pistol, but the certainty level is not what it was or should be.
The latest SIG issue is takedown lever failure, although it hasn't been made clear if this breakage will render the weapon inoperable in the short term.
There are two different types of breakage.
The most common breakage has been the flag/external part of the takedown lever simply snapping off of the cylinder/internal part of the lever. SIG started having the part made by a different vendor (rather than Sauer in Germany) and the new company was just welding the two parts together without using any kind of rivet or solid connection, unlike the Sauer version.
The problem was widespread and reached a point where, internally, SIG was discussing the possibility of recalling 40-50,000 guns. Apparently, the powers that be decided not to have the recall because none of the breakages was really critical. In other words, the flag broke off but the gun keeps firing, so no one's safety was endangered. It's just that getting the gun apart for cleaning is a PITA.
In response, the next generation takedown lever had a rivet and was brazed in place. The problem with those is that the brazing can give way, and now the flag spins like a propellor under recoil. It can spin right up into the takedown lever slot in the slide, locking the gun up solidly and requiring tools to get apart. That is a malfunction which would stop you dead in a fight. I've experienced this myself first hand. An email went out on a number of LE lists reporting that one academy saw three out of their seventeen new pistols suffer this breakage on the first day of shooting, shutting down all three guns.
SIG is now reportedly welding the flags in place (in addition to the central rivet) themselves. However, there is no way to tell whether you've got a brazed or welded takedown lever ... unless it breaks.
If you want to get your feet wet with SIGs and not drop a lot of $$$, you could pick up one of the surplus P6s that are comming over. For $265, plus shipping and a FFL transfer fee, you can have a 9mm P225 with a heavier than normal DA pull. Another $10 for a Wolff 18 lbs mainspring and you have a 10 lbs DA pull and a 4.5 lbs SA pull.
They are only 8 round mags and don't like HP ammo, though.
Anyway, my point is that for around $300 you can have a SIG to try out and see if you like the grip, trigger, controls and muzzle flip. They make a good truck gun.
Gringop
My old P220 was very accurate and reliable out of the box. Main reason I got rid of it is that the DA/SA trigger is not for me. I'll stick to 1911s and Glocks....consistent trigger pull every time
Bill
I have 8 or 9 Sig Sauer pistols and with the exception of my duty P229, all of them were made in West Germany over 20 years ago. I don't like the product that's coming out of New Hampshire and I think they've sacrified quality control and care in order to have pistols of every color and style. They've Kimberized the company and its a real shame.
And Todd, interesting take on the beavertail. I think the same thing. I think they're unnecessary and counterproductive. I think they're there only as a gimmick.
They've Kimberized the company and its a real shame.
Hiring a former executive from Kimber to run SIG probably had something to do with that. :mad:
And Todd, interesting take on the beavertail. I think the same thing. I think they're unnecessary and counterproductive. I think they're there only as a gimmick.
A beavertail on a SIG can work ... Ernest Langdon used to do custom welds on steel framed P220's. But the design on the production guns was determined by engineers rather than shooters. In SIG's defense, they're very popular and selling like hotcakes.
I knew that about the Kimber guy. Let's hope he doesn't move on to another company.
I picked up a used Al-framed P220 last year from a local dealer and have had no issues with it, but then again, I don't have thousands of rounds through it. In fact, I think it may have been a police agency trade-in because it barely had any wear when I got it. Either that, or someone really didn't like it for many of the reasons mentioned in this thread and promptly got rid of it.
I'd be curious to know if there is any way to research my P220's serial number to see if -and which - agency it may have come through (if at all) and what range of SNs would be known to have problems. Thoughts on that?
Robb Jensen
09-09-08, 20:51
A beavertail on a SIG can work ... Ernest Langdon used to do custom welds on steel framed P220's. But the design on the production guns was determined by engineers rather than shooters. In SIG's defense, they're very popular and selling like hotcakes.
It's a sad thing in the gun business, most gun buyers 'don't know what they don't know', and most if 'shooting for sh**' couldn't hit a 'wiff'. That goes for many/most gunstore workers as well. We've talked about it before in person, but I think the marketing people had the engineers design it on the 'cheap'.
I have a P220ST that I bought back in April (IIRC) of '05 and IMO it's the nicest out-of-the-box handgun I've ever owned. Sooner or later I'll probably send it off to Gray Guns for some tweaking and night sight installation but I've never owned another semiauto that was perfectly usable as a self-/home-defense piece right out of the box (after appropriate break-in and function testing, of course). Mine has the internal extractor but in ~1500 rounds I've had absolutely zero FTE's with it.
Kimberization: The taking of a name brand associated with quality of design and product, and banking upon that name, selling it down the river for increased profits while maintaining and possibly increasing market share.
The Process:
Step One - Begin to increase profits by corner cutting and penny pinching, to the detriment of the product.
Step Two - Continue to provide excellent customer service to handle the load generated by an increased number of deficient products as a result of step one.
Step Three - Extension and maturation of step one.
Step Four - Redefine issues covered under warranty to a lower common denominator. Institute a more stringent screening process in admittance of a product into customer service. Recognize and incorporate the idea that it is cheaper to satisfy a small percentage of determined knowledgeable customers through customer service, than it is to maintain former levels of quality control on which the reputation of that brand name was created.
John Hearne
09-10-08, 14:30
I'd be careful about spending that much money on a Sig that you didn't have to carry. I don't see any reason to carry a DA/SA pistol unless your employer mandates it. A pistol with a single consistent trigger pull will allow you to shoot better more quickly than a DA/SA design.
With that said, I carry a stainless Sig Elite P220 as my duty gun. My employer mandates a Sig but we can carry our personally owned guns. For me, the P2200 Elite is the highest evolution of the P220 platform.
The Elite gets you several "special" features - Short Reset Trigger (SRT), Beavertail, pretty wood grips, and front cocking serrations. Of these features, the SRT is the most important. When combined with an overtravel stop, the SRT is an incredible trigger. (When Sig designed the SRT they shortened the reset by increasing the overtravel, hence the need for the stop)
Depending on how you press check, the front cocking serrations are nice or worthless. I tend to press check from underneath the pistol and I like them.
The value of the beavertail depends on your hand size. For me, the beavertail works. I don't think that it helps with recoil but it insures that your hand is high up on the pistol - it serves as a stop as you drive your hand up. The beavertail is probably bigger than it needs to be but that's Sig's design.
The wooden grips are a joke. The only value I see for them is resale value. I immediately removed them from my pistol and sold them for $150. That pretty much covered the difference between a standard Sig and an Elite version. I replaced them with Sig's new thin grips for the P220 which I like immensely.
Sig has had a lot of reliability problems with their internal extractor, stainless P220 slides. An earlier comment is the first I've heard of any problems with the new external extractor design. If I were buying an Elite, I'd be looking for a gun with the external extractor.
As far as weight goes, I think it depends on what you're doing with the gun. I like because my duty load is a +P round. The +P round out of a stainless gun feels like a normal pressure round from the aluminum frame gun. I'm more worried at firing 3-5 rounds on one person than I am six rounds on three targets. Even with that said, I've shot the gun in competition and never found the weight to be a handicap.
The stainless guns weigh ~12 oz more than the standard pistol. I've carried a stainless gun, on and off duty since they were introduced. The weight has never been an issue for me. I attribute this to good holsters and good belts.
A pistol with a single consistent trigger pull will allow you to shoot better more quickly than a DA/SA design.
With proper training, it's essentially a non-issue for anyone outside of IPSC/IDPA competition, and even then people do quite well with DA/SA guns. I believe someone shooting a Beretta 92G Elite II (DA/SA) just came in third place overall at the USPSA Production Nationals ...
I know I can shoot a DA/SA gun "better more quickly" than a DAK or DAO revolver, both of which have a single consistent trigger pull.
Of these features, the SRT is the most important. When combined with an overtravel stop, the SRT is an incredible trigger. (When Sig designed the SRT they shortened the reset by increasing the overtravel, hence the need for the stop)
Agreed that the SRT makes a world of difference in shootability. Having used the system since it was in its prototype stage, I never noticed an increase in overtravel and wonder if that's coincidental to some other change (SIG gets their trigger bars from a new vendor, etc.). The SRT does not shorten the reset by increasing overtravel, it simply eliminates the need for the trigger to reset the firing pin block for each shot. If you removed the firing pin block from a standard SIG (absolutely not recommended) you would get the same short reset.
The value of the beavertail depends on your hand size. For me, the beavertail works. I don't think that it helps with recoil but it insures that your hand is high up on the pistol - it serves as a stop as you drive your hand up. The beavertail is probably bigger than it needs to be but that's Sig's design.
If it stops you from getting hammer bite, then obviously it's a good thing. The flaw with the beavertail on the SIGs is that its shape actually prevents you from getting your grip as high as it could be with the normal (non-beavertail) SIGs. For me, at least, it's very noticeable both in terms of comfort and shot recovery.
The stainless guns weigh ~12 oz more than the standard pistol. I've carried a stainless gun, on and off duty since they were introduced. The weight has never been an issue for me. I attribute this to good holsters and good belts.
I carried a P220ST (back when they were heavier than current production) for many months and never found it a challenge. As you say, quality support gear makes all the difference.
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