View Full Version : 6920 or LMT "the standard"
fourdegrees
09-07-08, 21:58
Hello,
I've been lurking here for about 6 months and I just recently returned from the AOR. I figured that now would be a good time to spend some TDY money on my first AR. Since my position doesn't grant me the oppurtunity to work first hand with the M4 I'm relying on others experience to help me make my first purchase. I've narrowed it down the two choices listed in the title.
I know that the two compare favorably with each other on the "chart," so for me the main differences between the two are that the Colt comes with the standard carrying handle and collapsing stock and the LMT comes with the LMT BUIS and SOPMOD stock. It also seems that the prices have gotten closer, the price of the 6920 going down lately. I've seen the Colt for $1250 and the LMT for $1350. Having never had the oppurtunity to use either setup which one would you suggest for a first timer? The Colt with its more "standard" configuration or the LMT with its "upgraded" parts?
To be honest this gun will live an easy life. I know that I may not need this much gun, but I like to buy things once, so I look for quality where I can.
Thanks in advance for any help given.
Welcome!
My guess is, you'll be like all of us in about 6 months. Suffering from BRD (Black Rifle Disease).
If you have the cash, buy the LMT, you'll appreciate the "upgrades". If cash is a bit tight, buy the Colt and some extra rounds/magazines. You'll be amazed how quickly the ammo will disappear once you begin shooting. Either way, you'll be purchasing a quality firearm that should retain it's value, be reliable, and be enjoyable to shoot.
Failure2Stop
09-07-08, 22:45
Technically, the 6920 is "the standard" by which all other 16" CAR gas guns are measured, as it truly is an M4 upper with a barrel cut longer. However, both the LMT and Colt are very very good options, and you will be well served by either.
If I already had a lower and I had the option of either a 6920 or an LMT 16" upper, at no cost, I would choose the 6920. If I had to pay for it out of my own pocket, I would (and did) go with LMT. This is where LMT shines over Colt, given the price that Colt uppers demand in the market. If I was to buy a complete carbine and constrained to the same two, I would go with the 6920 despite the nonstandard FCG pins.
That being said, there are other very good options available. You have jumped into the AR game at a great time- several superb manufacturers (Noveske, Bravo Company, and Sabre, to name three) are delivering product, and there are well understood systems beyond the old standard of CAR and rifle length gas systems (mid-length and intermediate).
If you are going with a 16" gun I think that you may want to investigate the mid-length system, as it truly does shine as a general purpose carbine.
But that's just me.
.357sigger
09-07-08, 22:48
Get the LMT....G and R Tactical has the LMT standard M4 listed for 1250.00 here:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=HGSTD16
Give them a call, Grant is a good guy to deal with.:D
RogerinTPA
09-07-08, 23:18
I'd get the Colt 6920, just because it is the standard for all M-4 AR's out there. I echo what F2S said, you will not be at a loss if you picked either one. It's all the damn upgrades and add on's that drive up the money invested in your weapon. It truly is like owning a boat in some respects. Once you get it in your hands, you can't resist the temptation to buy a red dot sight, a 4 power scope, BUIS, VFG, light, rails, mags, ammo, etc....then changing it in 6 months to a year because something else came out. It truly is addictive.:)
I still see Colt prices on Gun Broker for around $1450 but I've seen ads from certain dealers for around $1299. The LMT lists for (the last time I looked) for around $1250. Now, all this being said, I got my LMT for $1056 delivered by ordering the complete upper and complete lower. In fact I ordered both at the same time from the same dealer and were delivered in two boxes rubberbanded together. You can save yourself some $ by looking around some. I got the SOPMOD stock and I really love it, I never thought I would ever want anything other than the standard M4 stock but after shooting a VLTOR I knew I wanted a better stock on my next carbine and I truly feel the SOPMOD is worth it, at least for me. You may just need to look at each item on the chart and decide for your self what you want. As much as I wanted a Colt I was not happy with the non-standard FCG pins but I've never heard of a Colt needing replacements in the FCG. After deciding what you want, try to handle/shoulder or shoot some M4's at a local dealer or range and get a feel for what stock, sight, grip, rails etc. you may want to add. I think someone else is about to be bitten by the bug:D
Welcome.
I just ordered this LMT from Kiesler. http://www.kiesler.com/police/productdetail.aspx?cat=2486&pid=21853 $930 plus $12 shipping. Comes with detachable carrying handle, ambi safety, and standard stock. It is listed as individual LE only, but they also have a mil side of their website, that I haven't poked around on.
Here it is on their "defense" side of the website, same deal: http://www.kiesler.com/defense/productdetail.aspx?cat=2486&pid=21853
I'd get the LMT, more accessories and normal trigger pin sizes.
kihnspiracy
09-08-08, 12:18
Colt 6920. Comes as a complete rifle. Upper and lower finishes match. Higher resale value.
I rank LMT highly. I just don't like the fact that as a non-leo, I would have to order it as 2 seperate parts to get a complete rifle.
theJanitor
09-08-08, 12:24
Colt 6920. Comes as a complete rifle. Upper and lower finishes match. Higher resale value.
I rank LMT highly. I just don't like the fact that as a non-leo, I would have to order it as 2 seperate parts to get a complete rifle.
LMT sells CWS (complete weapon system). i bought a CWS from them. 16", two stage trigger, SOPMOD stock for less than a 6920.
OP, i would go with the LMT, IMHO. the quality is outstanding, and i don't judge weapons for their resale value. i judge them on their value as a weapon, and the LMT has great value to me.
spamsammich
09-08-08, 12:26
Colt 6920. Comes as a complete rifle. Upper and lower finishes match. Higher resale value.
I rank LMT highly. I just don't like the fact that as a non-leo, I would have to order it as 2 seperate parts to get a complete rifle.
You don't like the fact that by ordering it in two separate parts, you can avoid paying federal excise tax on a complete rifle of 11%? Call me crazy but I'm ok with that, I can get a complete LMT for under 900 bucks minus BUIS through my FFL holder.
I just don't like the fact that as a non-leo, I would have to order it as 2 seperate parts to get a complete rifle.
I understand this is no longer the case.
kihnspiracy
09-08-08, 14:08
Well, if you know of a dealer that sells complete LMT rifles to non-leo's please share that info. I would love to purchase an LMT rifle. All of the ones I have checked with do not sell complete rifles to non-leo's.
When I purchased my Colt, that option for LMT was unavailable. So the choice was a no brainer for me.
if you bought the Colt and added the LMT sopmod stock ,that would be a nice set up . but best is relitive.
lmt m4 bbls are actually a much better barrel than the colts.....
reason being that they are NOT bound to the tdp....which is normally opposite. just so happens that the tdp is a little retarded when it comes to bbl specs. there are better ways to do it, and lmt does it better.
Well, if you know of a dealer that sells complete LMT rifles to non-leo's please share that info. I would love to purchase an LMT rifle. All of the ones I have checked with do not sell complete rifles to non-leo's.
http://www.ar15sales.com/index.htm
PM sent with link to his thread on TOS, stating General Public sales.
I also believe G&R sells them: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=HGSTD16
I call BS on that .while they may be equal the LMT is not better in anyway shape or form.:eek:
lmt m4 bbls are actually a much better barrel than the colts.....
reason being that they are NOT bound to the tdp....which is normally opposite. just so happens that the tdp is a little retarded when it comes to bbl specs. there are better ways to do it, and lmt does it better.
I call BS on that .while they may be equal the LMT is not better in anyway shape or form.:eek:
I'd like some detail on that assertion too. LMT is just a 4150 1/7 chrome lined barrel. No taper pins, and no park under the FSB... :confused:
Could this be part of the reason for ARin's statement?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=45241&postcount=46
you can bet your A$$ that if not parking under the FSB and useing straight pins were better Paule (BCM) would do it that way . these things may be no big deal to most of us but the hard core perfectionest's that realy know what they are doing are doing it for a reason . they could save time and money short cutting the prosecess. while I don't know if it makes any differance on a recreational AR or not the best insist on it . If I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time ,but when I don't know for sure I look at what the people in the know are doing and defer to them and thier vast knolage on the subject and it apears to me that parking under the FSB and useing taper pins is the perfered method of the experts.;):p
you can bet your A$$ that if not parking under the FSB and useing straight pins were better Paule (BCM) would do it that way . these things may be no big deal to most of us but the hard core perfectionest's that realy know what they are doing are doing it for a reason . they could save time and money short cutting the prosecess. while I don't know if it makes any differance on a recreational AR or not the best insist on it . If I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time ,but when I don't know for sure I look at what the people in the know are doing and defer to them and thier vast knolage on the subject and it apears to me that parking under the FSB and useing taper pins is the perfered method of the experts.;):p
You do realize that the link I posted is Grant, from G&R Tactical, extolling the virtues of not parkerizing under the front sight base, as well as not using taper pins? I for one would include him in the category of "people in the know" and "hard core perfectionest's". I'll freely admit, though, I don't have his "vast knolage" .
Master_of_Sparks
09-08-08, 16:42
Both are damn fine weapons, run like mad hatters, and built to last your lifetime. Truthfully, there is just no wrong choice here.
I bought a second 6520 this past Saturday. I love the 6520 but it ran $1200. Thats a little steep. I bought a 6920 last year for about $1150, but now they are going for anywhere from $1350 to $1400, depending on that dealers mood, that given day.
I have bought 3 complete factory LMT's this year by ordering them through my usual local dealer. I am not a LEO and that didn't seem to be any issue at all, but I do spend a whole lot of money there, which probably influences the way they treat me (I know for a fact that it does). All were under $1100 each with SOPMODs, single stage triggers, standard BCGs, and BUIS.
I suppose the poll depends on your personal choice, or personal feelings towards COLT.
Fact is, the COLT military and LE guns are the standard which the others try to achieve.
FN being the exception, as they are also compliant with the military specification.
spamsammich
09-08-08, 16:52
Tapered pins are used because they are relatively easy to install for mass production and maintenance, i don't necessarily think they are better in terms of performance. They are just part of TDP. I can say for certain that my LMT straight pins were a grade A bitch to knock out last night and I don't expect getting them back in to be easy. Tried pressing them into the FSB by hand this morning and it wasn't happening. I'm confident they'll lock up nice and tight again.
The tapered pins in my middy were a relative breeze to pop out.
As far as parking, if I cared, I wouldn't have 3 LMT uppers in my possession right now. I'm not the kind of person that would let lack of park become an issue by neglecting the my guns, nor do I build beauty/safe queens.
twodollarbill
09-08-08, 16:56
Not saying you couldn't do it with a Colt 6920, but you can easily break the purchase of a
LMT down into a build as uppers and lowers are availible complete and you would
only have to purchase your lower through an FFL.
Making acquiring your weapon more affordable over a couple of months.
Just a thought????....but then again you could just do a "lay-a-way" on a 6920.
spamsammich
09-08-08, 17:01
Not saying you couldn't do it with a Colt 6920, but you can easily break the purchase of a
LMT down into a build as uppers and lowers are availible complete and you would
only have to purchase your lower through an FFL.
Making acquiring your weapon more affordable over a couple of months.
Just a thought????....but then again you could just do a "lay-a-way" on a 6920.
That's pretty much what I did. I got a screaming deal on all of my uppers, but purchased the lowers separately from different sources to save at least 11% per gun. I still have a full LMT rifle, just cheaper. That's about the only way I can see the LMT being superior to a Colt IMHO.
Yes I do know it was Grant, but I also know as a vendor of LMT he is not looking to piss them off . and he my believe it is just as good or better to boot . I honestly can't say if it's as good or better ,but the majority of experts seam to be in favor of taper pins and parking under the FSB. I can say that my LMT upper works like a champ and has been great. it's when I put it side by side to by BCM that you can see the attention to detail and QC that is better on the BCM. they both work fine ,but I have more confidence in the BCM because I feel they cared enough to go that extra mile and ship pure perfection . and the BCM and Colt both use taper pins and park under the FSB so in the end IMHO that is the prefered method . :D and I a'm certanly willing to admit Grant knows more than I do on the subject of AR's.
I call BS on that .while they may be equal the LMT is not better in anyway shape or form.:eek:
please dont make comments like this if you really dont have a clue what you are talking about. thanks in advance.
my assertion has nothing to do with park under the sight base or pins.
it has to do with the blanks that LMT uses.
LMT uses barrel blanks from Rock creek bbls (Mike rock), that are upbored to accept the additional thickness of chrome. giving us only one poor tolerance, and no stacking.
TDP calls for electro etching to open up 5.56 bores, then chroming them back down to 5.56 spec. Neither electro etching nor chrome lining are exact processes, giving us a stack of two poor tolerances.
This electro-etch process dates back to vietnam era m16's, that were originally non chrome lined.
this information has been verified by several sources, including LMT directly and barrel experts including randall rausch (ar15barrels.com).
I was unaware of that and would count on Rock to build a great barrel,after all he was trained by Boots Obermirer(spelling) and that old man was one of the best. in any event I have not found any of my 6 Colt rifles to be lacking in any way includeing accuracy and duribility. ther large pins and sear blocks (in 2 of them) are a drag ,but otherwise they are top notch . the fact that my 6920 and MT6400c shoot as accuratly as my LMT lead me to belive they both are top quality barrels and equal in that department . I will keep an eye on it and see if a few thousand rounds more alter my opinion of Colt or LMT.:confused:
Get the LMT Patrol( standard stock if you are short on cash). It will be cheaper than the 6920. I picked mine up for $1050.+tax a few months back. You could also buy an upper and lower seperate from Grant at G&R. I am putting two LMTs together this way.
I was unaware of that and would count on Rock to build a great barrel,after all he was trained by Boots Obermirer(spelling) and that old man was one of the best. in any event I have not found any of my 6 Colt rifles to be lacking in any way includeing accuracy and duribility. ther large pins and sear blocks (in 2 of them) are a drag ,but otherwise they are top notch . the fact that my 6920 and MT6400c shoot as accuratly as my LMT lead me to belive they both are top quality barrels and equal in that department . I will keep an eye on it and see if a few thousand rounds more alter my opinion of Colt or LMT.:confused:
generally speaking, both lmt and colt m4 bbls are capable of very good accuracy. However, bench resting with a higher power scope will show a general tendency towards the LMT being the more accurate of the two bbls.
but in all seriousness, benching them would probably be the only time that difference is apparent.
I wonder where the BCM barrel is made and by who and how thiers is made . I a'm going to try the BCM,LMT and Colt on a bag and use a Nikon X 4-16x50 on them and see what happens . all with some Black Hills 77 grain 5.56 Tap . this will be a pain in the A$$ mounting the scope on each ,but should tell the tale.
but should tell the tale.
One example of each is far from a statistically valid sample size, even if all the unintentionally imposed variables could somehow be eliminated.
But it should be fun. :cool:
please dont make comments like this if you really dont have a clue what you are talking about. thanks in advance.
my assertion has nothing to do with park under the sight base or pins.
it has to do with the blanks that LMT uses.
LMT uses barrel blanks from Rock creek bbls (Mike rock), that are upbored to accept the additional thickness of chrome. giving us only one poor tolerance, and no stacking.
TDP calls for electro etching to open up 5.56 bores, then chroming them back down to 5.56 spec. Neither electro etching nor chrome lining are exact processes, giving us a stack of two poor tolerances.
This electro-etch process dates back to vietnam era m16's, that were originally non chrome lined.
this information has been verified by several sources, including LMT directly and barrel experts including randall rausch (ar15barrels.com).
Oh man, you just can't beat a Colt Vs. thread. And Arin, just gets better and better.
Tapered pins are used because they are relatively easy to install for mass production and maintenance, i don't necessarily think they are better in terms of performance. They are just part of TDP.
I know this is a side topic but....
Randall's opinion differed on this subject. Straight pins are simpler to manufacure. And the Taper pins actually pull the FSB down onto the top of the barrel as they are driven in to create the critical seal for the gas port. They are part of the TDP for a reason.
(I'm paraphrasing Randall's posts, but I think that was the gist of it)
Neither electro etching nor chrome lining are exact processes, giving us a stack of two poor tolerances.
I just threw all my COLT barrels into Tempe Town Lake! :eek:
Seriously though... I see what you're saying with the tolerance stacking. But there must be a quality check of some sort no? A min/max, or a threshold of unacceptablity?
A min/max, or a threshold of unacceptablity?
At a bare minimum you could use a GO/NO-GO gauge. Though I am pretty sure the chamber is specified graphically in the military specification.
While the LMT process may be superior in regards to tolerance stack, it will either conform to the mil-spec (LMT or COLT) or it won't. Period.
It would be like saying a perfectly concentric hole that is accurate to +/- 0.003" but was Wire EDM'ed is less accurate, or somehow "better", then a perfectly concentric hole that is accurate to +/- .003" but was cut using a mill.
spamsammich
09-09-08, 11:19
I know this is a side topic but....
Randall's opinion differed on this subject. Straight pins are simpler to manufacure. And the Taper pins actually pull the FSB down onto the top of the barrel as they are driven in to create the critical seal for the gas port. They are part of the TDP for a reason.
(I'm paraphrasing Randall's posts, but I think that was the gist of it)
Yeah, they most definitely act as a wedge, this is what makes them pretty much self aligning and easier to work with. I can see the point he was making there. A properly sized straight pin is relatively difficult to use for repeated maintenance since it can be difficult to start.
spamsammich
09-09-08, 11:22
I just threw all my COLT barrels into Tempe Town Lake! :eek:
Seriously though... I see what you're saying with the tolerance stacking. But there must be a quality check of some sort no? A min/max, or a threshold of unacceptablity?
I think there is an air gauge check they can do. Kinda like a leakdown test on a cars engine.
FWIW, I ordered a complete gun from LMT through Walker Precision.
daddysnapmuffins
09-10-08, 01:21
FWIW, I ordered a complete gun from LMT through Walker Precision.
Yup yup. I order my complete STD16 LMT through Viking Kitty Armory in Tallahassee.
Army Chief
09-10-08, 03:49
I'm not sure that I'm wholly persuaded by the arguments advanced thus far with respect to LMT being entirely equal -- or superior -- to the recognized benchmark (Colt), but clearly they are the industry leader when it comes to putting a solid spec rifle/carbine into civilian hands. (Obviously, they have made significant inroads with the MIL/LEO contract market as well.)
Colt has repeatedly demonstrated that their only enduring interest in participating in the civil AR market is through the most indirect of means. Call it a production limitation. Call it a concession to legal intimidation. Call it what you will. The point is that I couldn't have imagined a poll three or four years ago that would have put LMT within 30 percentage points of knocking off the Hartford original, and I think that speaks volumes about LMT's top-tier credibility.
Chief
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.