View Full Version : Getting that battle rifle itch
WickedWillis
09-19-16, 19:13
As of late, I have become more and more interested in saving up and starting a .308 battle rifle project. I shot an FAL when I was younger, and it's always stuck with me as one of my favorite shooting experiences, that helped get me into guns for more than sporting purposes. Here is the thing though, when it comes to .308 semi auto rifles in general, I pretty much have zero knowledge. :help:
From my research so far, and what I am looking for the rifle's role to fill, I have been interested in the DSA FAL's. I really like the railed rifles they have, as I plan on mounting a light and possibly a foregrip on it. Primarily the SA58 OSW with the side-folding stock as the one that's really drawn my interest. Lo and behold, I went into a gun shop that I had never been into locally and they had the 13" model sitting on the shelf. So I was able to handle it and actually check it out in person. I really, really liked it. I don't feel like messing with any NFA paperwork right now however, and I have heard that the shorter barrel models don't quite run as well as the 16.5" and above. So I would go with at least a 16" barrel, and the DSA would be my first option at this point, especially because magazines are relatively cheap and seem to be quite reliable. What else should I know here about DSA and FAL's in general?
My second option, would be a SCAR 17. The SCAR being another of my favorite firearm families that I have a soft spot for.
The purpose of the .308 semi auto rifle would essentially be a trunk gun, and a heavier hiking rifle. Something I can have with me in the parking lot at my work, always within view, or slung up in the mountains on a hike.
Are there any other platforms that I am missing here? Also what other things should I consider about .308 semi's that a noob wouldn't know?
I shot an HK G3 clone once. I think it was a PTR 91 or maybe even a Century build. I don't remember. I was shooting an AK that day, and I switched off with the G3 owner. I put five rounds within a few inches at 100 yards off hand with it with iron sights. Not bench rested, offhand. I couldn't believe it.
Look for a lightly used HK91 and call it a day.
Screw the SCAR. SR-25. Or an HK91
I'll throw in a plug for the LMT MWS-E with chrome lined light weight barrel. Mine eats everything, both suppressed and unsuppressed. It's very accurate. Mine shoots surplus hirtenberger 146gr FMJ so well I've set aside the black hills 175gr OTM and federal GMM. Hits on steel at 600 are easy. Mine wears a SF SOCOM brake and it is really mild recoil with this. I absolutely love mine. That the barrel can be easily swapped and different calibers are an option is icing on the cake. I will eventually pick up a second MWS in 6.5 creedmor.
A hk91 in nice shape would also be a good option, but it is far less ergonomic, less optic friendly, and lacks the versatility of the MWS. The SCAR17 is a very nice rifle too, but it requires a good amount of aftermarket additions to realize it's full potential.
notorious_ar15
09-19-16, 21:28
I in my experience both are great choices, so get both! The FAL's gas system has more fine tuning in it's adjustment, and the trigger is (usually) better out of the box. As far as mounting a scope, in my opinion the SCAR is easier to get a better cheek weld without changing out the stock, adding a goofy strap on pad that has to be removed for using the iron sights, or something like that. Aftermarket is good for both right now.
As far as the shorter gas systems, I can't tell you, but you might want to look on the FAL files if you haven't already. Good luck in your quest!
If you want a FAL get a FAL. I'd recommend trying to track down an older one with a Steyr barrel in good condition. 16" para models are nice but if you can't find an older one with a Steyr barrel you may want to consider the 18" Congo rifle from DSA.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-19-16, 22:42
I'll throw in a plug for the LMT MWS-E with chrome lined light weight barrel. Mine eats everything, both suppressed and unsuppressed. It's very accurate. Mine shoots surplus hirtenberger 146gr FMJ so well I've set aside the black hills 175gr OTM and federal GMM. Hits on steel at 600 are easy. Mine wears a SF SOCOM brake and it is really mild recoil with this. I absolutely love mine. That the barrel can be easily swapped and different calibers are an option is icing on the cake. I will eventually pick up a second MWS in 6.5 creedmor.
A hk91 in nice shape would also be a good option, but it is far less ergonomic, less optic friendly, and lacks the versatility of the MWS. The SCAR17 is a very nice rifle too, but it requires a good amount of aftermarket additions to realize it's full potential.
An MWS in 6.5 CM is, in my mind, as good as it gets.
Eurodriver
09-19-16, 23:17
Screw the SCAR. SR-25. Or an HK91
I agree.
I had a SCAR 17 for like 3 months. I put maybe 500 rounds through it, and it wasn't for me. The recoil, short handguard, "sharp" edges, reciprocating CH... it is no doubt a fantastic weapon that will run forever but given the proliferation of the AR15 having an SR25 only makes sense.
Moose-Knuckle
09-20-16, 02:51
OP what is your budget that you had in mind for this rifle?
SR25s are in the $4K neighborhood, older DSA's are getting harder to find and price accordingly, HK91's are anywhere from $2K-4K depending on condition etc.
We're 48 days out from the election.
NOW is the time to buy what you think you may want in the future. When Hillary is crowned it'll take her about a year to get any new bans implemented but the panic will make availability non-existent during that time and if you do happen to find the exact thing you want it will more than likely be about three to six times what they are going for now.
Boba Fett v2
09-20-16, 05:36
NOW is the time to buy what you think you may want in the future. When Hillary is crowned it'll take her about a year to get any new bans implemented but the panic will make availability non-existent during that time and if you do happen to find the exact thing you want it will more than likely be about three to six times what they are going for now.
My thoughts exactly.
Get an 18" FAL and enjoy for what it is, don't weigh it down with rails, etc.
WickedWillis
09-20-16, 11:08
Screw the SCAR. SR-25. Or an HK91
Lol I have a decent amount of experience on the 16 and I had heard nothing but positive things about the 17 until this thread.
OP what is your budget that you had in mind for this rifle?
SR25s are in the $4K neighborhood, older DSA's are getting harder to find and price accordingly, HK91's are anywhere from $2K-4K depending on condition etc.
We're 48 days out from the election.
NOW is the time to buy what you think you may want in the future. When Hillary is crowned it'll take her about a year to get any new bans implemented but the panic will make availability non-existent during that time and if you do happen to find the exact thing you want it will more than likely be about three to six times what they are going for now.
My budget was really going to determine on the rifle that I chose, as most of it would be putting money away until I could afford what I wanted. If I went with a FAL I was looking in the neighborhood of $3K when factoring magazines, ammo, and an optic on top of the purchase, which any of these would need. I'm finally happy with where I'm at when it comes to AR rifles and accessories, and I feel confident in my stockpile going forward with the uncertain political climate. The SR-25's are some of the nicest rifles on the planet, but I wanted to get away from the traditional AR style rifles, just to have some more variety in my safe. which is why I didn't list any AR10's.
The HK91, and the PTR 91 were not rifles I had previously considered. I have zero experience with either one. I found I can get magazines for them for $5 a piece, which blows my mind. Rails aren't a big thing to me when it comes to this rifle, but I would like to be able to mount a light (all of my rifles have weapon lights), and an optic. I would say distance-wise they would always be 500 yards and in.
Whatever battle rifle I decide to go with it will be a secondary rifle, not a primary.
I have a SCAR17 and agree with the above. It is light and the stock folds but it recoils like a light rifle.
I don't sell my guns and thus will be keeping my SCAR.
My favorite battle rifle is my MR762, just ahead of the HK91 and my Garands. If you don't have a Garand pick one of those up from the CMP before they are all gone.
Got to fondle a Seekins SP10 the other day at the Fort Worth Cabelas, now my credit card is feeling warm...
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/719002912
WickedWillis
09-20-16, 14:14
Screw the SCAR. SR-25. Or an HK91
OP what is your budget that you had in mind for this rifle?
SR25s are in the $4K neighborhood, older DSA's are getting harder to find and price accordingly, HK91's are anywhere from $2K-4K depending on condition etc.
We're 48 days out from the election.
NOW is the time to buy what you think you may want in the future. When Hillary is crowned it'll take her about a year to get any new bans implemented but the panic will make availability non-existent during that time and if you do happen to find the exact thing you want it will more than likely be about three to six times what they are going for now.
I have a SCAR17 and agree with the above. It is light and the stick folds but it recoils like a light rifle.
I don't sell my guns and thus will be keeping my SCAR.
My favorite battle rifle is my MR762, just ahead of the HK91 and my Garands. If you don't have a Garand pick one of those up from the CMP before they are all gone.
The MR762 is awesome as well. A Garand would be in the cards if I decided to do a collectors rifle.
Got to fondle a Seekins SP10 the other day at the Fort Worth Cabelas, now my credit card is feeling warm...
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/719002912
I've shot one, they are really nice. Seekins is only about an hour from me, so my area has tons of guys shooting them.
I've always wanted a FAL, but hate the optic mounting choices. No buy. 20" LWRC REPR would be a good choice.
A Garand is always a good idea, and you can buy a metric ton of ammo for the difference of most of the top tier.
They are tried and trusted, give you standoff distance which should be a premier consideration, balance naturally
for offhand, allow the lowest prone position attainable.
They penetrate cars, trees, block walls, vests, yeah they are old, don't scope well, and they do kick some.
You have to be a rifleman to get the most of one it will still shoot to the same place if you drop it, and you probably
will.
I live where the spaces are wide, the hills are almost mountains and a Garand is a good choice for me, even though
I have the big 3. HK,M1A,FAL.
I shoot the M1 very well and my eyes are still 20/20.
Boba Fett v2
09-20-16, 20:23
M1A remains on my wish list.
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Iron sights or RDS and burning cheap russian ammo, PTR91. $900. +RDS if you want one.
Scope, longer range work, good trigger, quality ammo, accessories, AR pattern. Start at $1500 and you'll have to spend more on those accessories, scope, quality ammo, good trigger, etc.
I've had both. Like both.
I've always wanted a FAL, but hate the optic mounting choices. No buy. 20" LWRC REPR would be a good choice.
What do you hate about the top cover rail mount?
Mr. Goodtimes
09-20-16, 22:49
I'd be eyeballing a good condition actual HK91 or maybe an LRB Arms M14.
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RetroRevolver77
09-21-16, 00:08
I'd be eyeballing a good condition actual HK91 or maybe an LRB Arms M14.
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Or you could just buy all three classic battle rifles; HK 91, M1A, and FAL.
What do you hate about the top cover rail mount?
It's on a top cover.
Iron sights or RDS and burning cheap russian ammo, PTR91. $900. +RDS if you want one.
Scope, longer range work, good trigger, quality ammo, accessories, AR pattern. Start at $1500 and you'll have to spend more on those accessories, scope, quality ammo, good trigger, etc.
I've had both. Like both. Bad thing about 91's is the lack of lrbho features. I'd have simply bought a few PTR's and been .308 happy if they had it.
It's on a top cover.
You understand the DSA FAL mount is a lot different from say an AK top cover mount right? You don't need to remove it to service the weapon and it's pretty much in place if installed correctly. It's probably more solid than a claw mount on an HK rifle.
Bad thing about 91's is the lack of lrbho features. I'd have simply bought a few PTR's and been .308 happy if they had it.
Why is it people always mention HKs don't have a bolt hold open but nobody seems to mind that AK rifles don't have a bolt hold open?
MountainRaven
09-21-16, 01:12
Why is it people always mention HKs don't have a bolt hold open but nobody seems to mind that AK rifles don't have a bolt hold open?
Same reason people always mention SCARs have reciprocating charging handles but nobody seems to mind that AKs (including Galils and Valmets and fifth-cousin-related rifles like the SVD and SG550), M1s (carbines, Garands, Thompsons), M14s, Benelli M1/2/4s (and virtually every other semi-automatic shotgun), AR-18/180s, ARX-100/160s, G36s, L85A1/2s, VZ58s, 805 Brens, &c., &c., &c. have reciprocating charging handles.
Same reason people always mention SCARs have reciprocating charging handles but nobody seems to mind that AKs (including Galils and Valmets and fifth-cousin-related rifles like the SVD and SG550), M1s (carbines, Garands, Thompsons), M14s, Benelli M1/2/4s (and virtually every other semi-automatic shotgun), AR-18/180s, ARX-100/160s, G36s, L85A1/2s, VZ58s, 805 Brens, &c., &c., &c. have reciprocating charging handles.
Because some guy on youtube...
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I miss my old STG 58. I focused on SCAR and forgot FAL. My beef with the SCAR is that you have to almost rebuild it to get it up to snuff. I hear their sniper version deletes a lot of the SCARs weaker points and makes it almost a new rifle. I dunno about it.
If I could have a new, well made FAL, It would have the normal FAL brake, 21" barrel, fixed stock and scope mount like the old British Commando DMRs.
Kinda meh on para Congo. I just like the classic version. At one time I had a slew of metric mags. If I could get a straight up SLR that would rule but $$$$.
ETA I had a chance at a Rhodie kit years back and pissed it away. I got out of my M1A and will forego a Garand. I really wish I had retained a good honest FAL but I got other projects. Seriously. FALs are fun. But I hear different stuff about DSA these days so I dont know
The only "battle rifle" I have remaining is an oddball, a French MAS 49/56 in 7.5 French. It is an excellent rifle.
Moose-Knuckle
09-21-16, 04:31
To the OP, I was evaluating my needs and asked myself what I want/need before Hillary is crowned and the panic disappears everything.
To date I only had one MBR, a 99% USGI late golden-era SA M1A so I decided to get a DD5V1 and a pre-ban OEM HK91 (not PTR). One of the biggest things that had me decide on those two was the DD5 takes the SR25 compatible mags to include the reliable yet inexpensive LR/SR PMAGs and I've been slaying Grade II G3 mags for south of $4 and Grade I never issued G3 mags south of $5.
The only "battle rifle" I have remaining is an oddball, a French MAS 49/56 in 7.5 French. It is an excellent rifle.
Yes they are. I wish mine had a slightly lighter trigger though.
I got an email this morning that armalite def10 ' s were back in stock. When I clicked the link they were gone.
Bad thing about 91's is the lack of lrbho features. I'd have simply bought a few PTR's and been .308 happy if they had it.
Yup. Not having LRBHO does suck. Nothing like stepping out from cover during a match or practice (or during a gun fight..!) Take carefull aim and "SNAP!". A dry fire that sounds almost as loud as the shot you wanted.
Then you have to get back and start the 3-4 second reloading process.
I suppose the answer could be carry several mags and reload at every pause like you would a shotgun?
Why is it people always mention HKs don't have a bolt hold open but nobody seems to mind that AK rifles don't have a bolt hold open?
I do mind ak's have no LRBHO (yea I know, yugo mags or modded followers)
I don't mine reciprocating bolt charger handes.
You understand the DSA FAL mount is a lot different from say an AK top cover mount right? You don't need to remove it to service the weapon and it's pretty much in place if installed correctly. It's probably more solid than a claw mount on an HK rifle.
I honestly did not know that.
Why is it people always mention HKs don't have a bolt hold open but nobody seems to mind that AK rifles don't have a bolt hold open?
All of my mags have a lrbho follower. More noticable than even an AR.
You understand the DSA FAL mount is a lot different from say an AK top cover mount right? You don't need to remove it to service the weapon and it's pretty much in place if installed correctly. It's probably more solid than a claw mount on an HK rifle.
Yup. Not having LRBHO does suck. Nothing like stepping out from cover during a match or practice (or during a gun fight..!) Take carefull aim and "SNAP!". A dry fire that sounds almost as loud as the shot you wanted.
Then you have to get back and start the 3-4 second reloading process.
I suppose the answer could be carry several mags and reload at every pause like you would a shotgun?
Imo it's fix that if possible or sell the rifle for something up to date if not. I had several .308 VEPR's at one time, with a bunch of mags, and as soon as I shot them I knew they had to go. By some sense I usually knew when they went dry, but that was sitting at a range bench.
KalashniKEV
09-21-16, 10:58
I'll throw in a plug for the LMT MWS-E with chrome lined light weight barrel.
I'm eyeing one of these right now.
I'm not sure if it would be just-the-ticket or if it would be an expensive and heavy battle rifle / not as precise as a bolt gun precision rifle.
Anyway, it says Battle Rifle above, and OP has expressed a fondness for FALs. I say go buy the Voyager- my 16" came with an FN Bolt and Carrier (though I'm sure that's a crap shoot). Do not worry about the cast receiver- you will not break it. These are the same receivers they are supplying to African countries on military contracts to fight al Shabaab/ LRA/ Kony/ Poachers.
If not, the PTR-91 is even cheaper and also an excellent choice.
RetroRevolver77
09-21-16, 12:46
Yup. Not having LRBHO does suck. Nothing like stepping out from cover during a match or practice (or during a gun fight..!) Take carefull aim and "SNAP!". A dry fire that sounds almost as loud as the shot you wanted.
Then you have to get back and start the 3-4 second reloading process.
I suppose the answer could be carry several mags and reload at every pause like you would a shotgun?
With HK or AK type rifles, you can do as you say, swap mags during a pause- counting of course so you aren't swapping after only five shots. This is what I do, count my rounds running my rifles so I know when it's time to reload- something everyone should be doing so you are aware of when you are running empty. Another way, one that my friend used as an LEO for practice during the 1980's was load the first three rounds with tracers, that way your last three shots would indicate when to swap the magazine. You get good at either one, your mag swap times would rival if not surpass those that are running rifles relying specifically on mechanical hold open anyway.
7n6
All of my mags have a lrbho follower. More noticable than even an AR.
Worse than even not having a lrbho. Yugo mags suck.
They hold the round open and when you finally drag the empty magazine out of the gun guess what? The bolt closes. It's not a last round bolt hold open.
So then you insert a fresh AK mag and you have to....charge the bolt to load the weapon.
The only FUNCTIONAL thing that magazine does is hold open the chamber if you are done firing to allow the barrel to cool. But you can actually do the same thing with a spent case.
titsonritz
09-21-16, 14:15
I have an older M1A so I really don't need another "battle rifle", but I have always had a hankering for a Galil ARM and while I respect both the HK91 and FAL if I were to pick something up today it would an LMT MWS. I like the operational similarity M14s and Galils have with AK and the LMT, obviously with the AR.
Worse than even not having a lrbho. Yugo mags suck.
They hold the round open and when you finally drag the empty magazine out of the gun guess what? The bolt closes. It's not a last round bolt hold open.
So then you insert a fresh AK mag and you have to....charge the bolt to load the weapon.
The only FUNCTIONAL thing that magazine does is hold open the chamber if you are done firing to allow the barrel to cool. But you can actually do the same thing with a spent case.
Wrong. It lets you know if you step around that corner you still have ammo ready to go.
Wrong. It lets you know if you step around that corner you still have ammo ready to go.
Or you could just pull the bolt back an inch before you step around the corner. Been shooting AKs for a long time, have had plenty of Yugo mags. They basically make magazine changes take longer.
So you have two choices:
1. A magazine that shows you that you are empty but results in slower magazine changes.
2. Doing chamber checks, magazine checks or counting bursts.
The only time I use Yugo mags is at the range to help keep the barrel cool after shooting. But for anything even remotely real life, AK mag changes are clunky enough without having the follower carrying the the bolt. Might as well have a bullet button to make it even more annoying.
Bolt hold open isnt a big deal for me, personally.
Or you could just pull the bolt back an inch before you step around the corner. Been shooting AKs for a long time, have had plenty of Yugo mags. They basically make magazine changes take longer.
So you have two choices:
1. A magazine that shows you that you are empty but results in slower magazine changes.
2. Doing chamber checks, magazine checks or counting bursts.
The only time I use Yugo mags is at the range to help keep the barrel cool after shooting. But for anything even remotely real life, AK mag changes are clunky enough without having the follower carrying the the bolt. Might as well have a bullet button to make it even more annoying.
I'll take the blunt notice personally. In no way does it slow my mag change either. Plus I have no desire chamber checking at multiple corners, in the dark, or taking my gun out of ready at any other time to do so.
RetroRevolver77
09-22-16, 00:35
I'll take the blunt notice personally. In no way does it slow my mag change either. Plus I have no desire chamber checking at multiple corners, in the dark, or taking my gun out of ready at any other time to do so.
Having run some six figures of ammo through AK's, I could care less. I shoot in either groups of two or groups of three- makes counting easy and knowing when I'm coming up on empty.
I'll take the blunt notice personally. In no way does it slow my mag change either. Plus I have no desire chamber checking at multiple corners, in the dark, or taking my gun out of ready at any other time to do so.
Well first I don't know why you would take it personally. I'm not calling you names, suggesting you don't have relevant experience and this isn't TOS.
Second, maybe it doesn't slow down your magazine changes, but it certainly doesn't make them faster because it's not a true bolt hold open. As soon as the magazine is removed the bolt drops. It's not like an AR where you can dump the mag, insert a new mag and hit the bolt release.
Third, in MY experience, the bolt drag on the follower definitely slows magazine changes for ME.
As for all the tactical aspects of the AK, if you are really depending upon a Yugo magazine to make you "safe vs. non safe" then I honestly believe you are putting more faith in a magazine follower than you should.
Hopefully that clarifies what I'm trying to say without you taking it "personally."
Keep it on track, if you want to discuss AK's=start another thread. OP-just go by what you want and be done with it.
Well first I don't know why you would take it personally. I'm not calling you names, suggesting you don't have relevant experience and this isn't TOS.
Second, maybe it doesn't slow down your magazine changes, but it certainly doesn't make them faster because it's not a true bolt hold open. As soon as the magazine is removed the bolt drops. It's not like an AR where you can dump the mag, insert a new mag and hit the bolt release.
Third, in MY experience, the bolt drag on the follower definitely slows magazine changes for ME.
As for all the tactical aspects of the AK, if you are really depending upon a Yugo magazine to make you "safe vs. non safe" then I honestly believe you are putting more faith in a magazine follower than you should.
Hopefully that clarifies what I'm trying to say without you taking it "personally."
I don't take things too personally online. Don't know why you thought I had with you. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and yours just happens to suck.:cool:
Uh oh, a mod. If .308 AK varients had lrbho followers I'd have kept and would suggest the VEPR's as "battle rifles". OP if you don't mind not having that feature they are cheap, accurate, and mine ran 100%.
With HK or AK type rifles, you can do as you say, swap mags during a pause- counting of course so you aren't swapping after only five shots. This is what I do, count my rounds running my rifles so I know when it's time to reload- something everyone should be doing so you are aware of when you are running empty. Another way, one that my friend used as an LEO for practice during the 1980's was load the first three rounds with tracers, that way your last three shots would indicate when to swap the magazine. You get good at either one, your mag swap times would rival if not surpass those that are running rifles relying specifically on mechanical hold open anyway.
7n6
Yea, good points. The only problem with tracers is I don't have the private land to use them. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be done in "serious use" mags anyway. I've fired enough tracers in the past to know I've fired one.
Counting rounds, perhaps in pairs like someone else mentioned, is probably a good idea with 20 rnd mags anyway.
notorious_ar15
09-24-16, 18:07
Another consideration if you're looking at an older / original FAL would be the Springfield SAR-48 or 4800.
prices are still pretty reasonable when they turn up.
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