View Full Version : The heavy duty truck wars are heating up
Gm announced the power figures on their next gen 6.6 Duramax this week. If you haven't been following the heavy duty cold war going on, that now puts the big three 2017 models at:
GM: 445 Horsepower 910 Torque
Ford: 440 Horsepower 925 Torque
Ram: 385 Horsepower 900 Torque*
*Ram actually has three levels of the 6.7 Cummins available in their production non commercial vehicles. This is the most powerful.
I known we have some very fierce brand loyalty in this group but we can all agree this is getting awesome!
Chevy's announcement.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/09/new-gm-duramax-l5p-diesel-horsepower-torque-announced/
TacticalSledgehammer
09-28-16, 03:59
You gotta have a minimum of about $50k to start playing. I bought a new Dodge Ram 2500 diesel back in 2006 for $33k. You can't touch one for anywhere close to that nowadays. Im not sure what my next one will be. Currently I drive a 2013 f-250 with a 6.2l gas motor.
You can get one in the low to mid 40s if you are okay with a fairly basic truck. Less if you wait for one of the sales.
Just priced out some trucks on USAA website, which just uses TrueCar, and here is what I got.
F250 crew cab 4x4 Powerstroke FX4 just under 45k
Ram 2500 crew cab 4x4 Cummins SLT just over 42k..... The Tradesman trim level was like 4k less.
Chevy 2500 crew cab 4x4 Duramax WT just over 45k..... Chevy had to drop down to the work truck trim level to get under 50k. Stepping up to the LT package brought it up to 54k.
Averageman
09-28-16, 04:59
The Company I work for buys Dodge for the most part.
I have now driven both the 2500 and the 3500 for almost six years. If there is a less comfortable Truck to use as a daily driver I would imagine it is driven by oxen and the Marquises de Sade has designed the interior.
Between having the turning radius of a Destroyer, a total inability to find a parking space anywhere but in the next County, requiring DEF and the most unwieldy seats and cabin design, I envy those I work with who are driving Fords and Chevy's.
My "new" 2500 has the little dial shifter and push button 4 wheel drive select, I have contemplated a hammer to fix this at times.
BuzzinSATX
09-28-16, 05:27
My daily drive is a Duramax diesel 2011 Chevy 2500 crewcab 4X4 with 8 ft bed. Bone stock, bought it new in Dec 2011. I have the LT trim package, so no leather, but I have a nice stereo, with built in navigation, so I'm good. Mine came with 397 HP and 750ish ft lbs torque. Bought it to pull a fifth wheel camper that never materialized, but I do love the truck, so it's staying. Sure I'd love leather and heated/cooled seats (especially cooled) here in south central TX, but I can deal with it. I have two friends who recently bought 1500 LTZ's and they are crazy nice interiors.
I'm not against Dodge or Ford, but I do like the ride and trim out of Chevy trucks, and they would be my first choice at this point. And I'm getting 15.9 MPG combined per the onboard computer....
Guess my biggest issue is the DEF fill spout, which is in a stupid location under the hood against the firewall.
Otherwise, I'm happy with it.
And yet none of those come with handshakers any more.. Total travesty IMO.
That and a the emissions crap. .. But impressive numbers considering.
brickboy240
09-28-16, 10:29
I had a 2500 GMC with the 6.6 Duramax. Never gave me a lick of trouble and pulled like a beast. Got around 21mpg on the highway too.
Loved the truck but since I don't haul anything heavy anymore, I went back to a 1/2 ton Sierra.
If I had to buy another diesel again...I would have no problems buying another Duramax.
I'm interested in the Allison changes those GM numbers required. Torque capacity of the Allison has been what's been holding the Duramax back compared to the Powerstroke and Cummins.
You gotta have a minimum of about $50k to start playing. I bought a new Dodge Ram 2500 diesel back in 2006 for $33k. You can't touch one for anywhere close to that nowadays. Im not sure what my next one will be. Currently I drive a 2013 f-250 with a 6.2l gas motor.
I got my Ram for right at $43k out the door. It's not fancy but it gets the job done. Tradesman with chrome group, comfort group (cloth seats) and UConnect 5.0....
Yeah, the no manual transmissions anymore genuinely saddens me also.
Its to the point that they have to have automatics and tractiom control though. Most people can't actually handle those type of power levels and not get them self killed.
I am not sure about a diesel equipped 250, but the 250 with a 6.2 I would build via Ford's build & price is right at about 39k-40k. I actually got to see one of the new 2017 SD's yesterday, man those things are good looking and they dwarf the previous gen SD's.
Yeah, the no manual transmissions anymore genuinely saddens me also.
Its to the point that they have to have automatics and tractiom control though. Most people can't actually handle those type of power levels and not get them self killed.
Truth.
The Company I work for buys Dodge for the most part.
I have now driven both the 2500 and the 3500 for almost six years. If there is a less comfortable Truck to use as a daily driver I would imagine it is driven by oxen and the Marquises de Sade has designed the interior.
Between having the turning radius of a Destroyer, a total inability to find a parking space anywhere but in the next County, requiring DEF and the most unwieldy seats and cabin design, I envy those I work with who are driving Fords and Chevy's.
My "new" 2500 has the little dial shifter and push button 4 wheel drive select, I have contemplated a hammer to fix this at times.
They all run DEF now. How do you feel heavy duty vehicle should ride?
Not dogging you, but honest question?
Starting to show my age I guess. I remember when it took Twin turbos injectors, fancy fuel pump setups, head work, and a bunch of other goodies to get 450 horsepower daily driver that didn't smoke show everybody out in the intersection as well as actually Not destroy itself.
Better computers, Bosch common rail, and variable geometry turbos have definitely changed the game for sure.
I can't wait until we start talking about gallons per mile. Lol.
BuzzinSATX
09-28-16, 11:34
Yeah, the no manual transmissions anymore genuinely saddens me also.
Its to the point that they have to have automatics and tractiom control though. Most people can't actually handle those type of power levels and not get them self killed.
Agree lack of manual tranny is sad.
As far as power goes, I have to be careful spinning tires on wet streets on any sort of fast start if my bed is empty. Definitely rides best with a couple cubic yards of dirt or compost in the bed that I haul for garden beds.
Take Care,
Buzz
Averageman
09-28-16, 11:38
They all run DEF now. How do you feel heavy duty vehicle should ride?
Not dogging you, but honest question?
A year earlier truck in the same fleet, same style, no DEF. Part of the problem is we're running Trucks we really don't need, they are way too big for what we are currently doing with them. It's not the ride as much as the total inconvenience of the cabs design.
A year earlier truck in the same fleet, same style, no DEF. Part of the problem is we're running Trucks we really don't need, they are way too big for what we are currently doing with them.
If that's the comparison I wouldn't complain too bad. DEF gets back most of the fuel economy you lose adding diesel particulate filters. I'm not really a fan of the emissions gear but if you've got to have it DPF + DEF is the best configuration to have overall.
It's not the ride as much as the total inconvenience of the cabs design.
The newer rams with rear coil springs ride pretty good. It's no Cadillac but it's right there with a half ton truck and worlds better than ole whitey, my 98 Ram.....
Mr. Goodtimes
09-28-16, 13:17
The Company I work for buys Dodge for the most part.
I have now driven both the 2500 and the 3500 for almost six years. If there is a less comfortable Truck to use as a daily driver I would imagine it is driven by oxen and the Marquises de Sade has designed the interior.
Between having the turning radius of a Destroyer, a total inability to find a parking space anywhere but in the next County, requiring DEF and the most unwieldy seats and cabin design, I envy those I work with who are driving Fords and Chevy's.
My "new" 2500 has the little dial shifter and push button 4 wheel drive select, I have contemplated a hammer to fix this at times.
They all use def now. It's required by the EPA.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Averageman
09-28-16, 13:21
They all use def now. It's required by the EPA.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Like I said, part of the problem, we're for the most part running trucks much bigger than we need now as the mission has changed. The DEF and Diesel isn't worth the added cost and hassle for what we're doing.
Again whomever designed the cab of that truck, the dash and controls, had no idea of how uncomfortable that design truly is.
SomeOtherGuy
09-28-16, 13:41
These are awesome numbers, but how useful are they really? Isn't this at the point where the engine will let you pull things that the rest of the truck can't safely stop, turn, or control in crosswinds? My comparatively weak (ha) former Dodge with a 325hp/625lb-ft 5.9L Cummins never lacked for power. The motor was more capable than anything else in the truck, based on experience hauling up to an 11k gooseneck trailer over various conditions including all the way across the Appalachians (Black Mountain, NC included), lots of miles in Chicago rush-hour traffic, and moderately bad winter conditions in Michigan. (We're smart enough not to pull a trailer in a blizzard.)
Or are they uprating everything into the 450/550 class but just calling them 350 (1-ton) class trucks?
How do you feel heavy duty vehicle should ride?
Different person here - night and day difference between our 2006 Dodge Ram 2500 quad cab diesel and our 2015 Chevy K2500 crew cab gas. The Chevy has >1000lbs more payload capacity yet rides almost like a car. The Dodge had a paltry 1700 or so payload and rode like an ox-cart. They are similar in overall weight and towing ability.
Yes, I read the other person's mention that the newer Dodge Rams with a coil spring rear are "pretty good." I don't know if that's a heavy duty or 1/2 ton pickup though.
Leaveammoforme
09-28-16, 14:32
Yeah, the no manual transmissions anymore genuinely saddens me also.
Its to the point that they have to have automatics and tractiom control though. Most people can't actually handle those type of power levels and not get them self killed.
It has a lot to do with emissions. Control the shift points, control the emissions.
I haven't been around daily driver light duty trucks for awhile. But, as power levels approach what actual heavy duty trucks (Class 8) are producing, I hope they are actually able to stop. Engine brakes are only effective when your one driver axle has traction.
Reminds me of the noob drag racing crowd building a car backwards. Stuff 800 horsepower under the hood while leaving the suspension and brakes untouched.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-28-16, 14:44
Like I said, part of the problem, we're for the most part running trucks much bigger than we need now as the mission has changed. The DEF and Diesel isn't worth the added cost and hassle for what we're doing.
Again whomever designed the cab of that truck, the dash and controls, had no idea of how uncomfortable that design truly is.
My daily driver is a 2015 F250 diesel. DEF is kind of a pain in the ass, but really you don't have to do it all that often. And at least here in DFW, Diesel has been cheaper than gas :) Now yes, the added maintenance is more but I just plain like driving it better than the half ton I used to have.
These are awesome numbers, but how useful are they really? Isn't this at the point where the engine will let you pull things that the rest of the truck can't safely stop, turn, or control in crosswinds? My comparatively weak (ha) former Dodge with a 325hp/625lb-ft 5.9L Cummins never lacked for power. The motor was more capable than anything else in the truck, based on experience hauling up to an 11k gooseneck trailer over various conditions including all the way across the Appalachians (Black Mountain, NC included), lots of miles in Chicago rush-hour traffic, and moderately bad winter conditions in Michigan. (We're smart enough not to pull a trailer in a blizzard.)
Or are they uprating everything into the 450/550 class but just calling them 350 (1-ton) class trucks?
Different person here - night and day difference between our 2006 Dodge Ram 2500 quad cab diesel and our 2015 Chevy K2500 crew cab gas. The Chevy has >1000lbs more payload capacity yet rides almost like a car. The Dodge had a paltry 1700 or so payload and rode like an ox-cart. They are similar in overall weight and towing ability.
Yes, I read the other person's mention that the newer Dodge Rams with a coil spring rear are "pretty good." I don't know if that's a heavy duty or 1/2 ton pickup though.
I believe all Rams are rear coils now but it didn't come to the 2500s till 14. mine is a 2500...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
These are awesome numbers, but how useful are they really? Isn't this at the point where the engine will let you pull things that the rest of the truck can't safely stop, turn, or control in crosswinds? My comparatively weak (ha) former Dodge with a 325hp/625lb-ft 5.9L Cummins never lacked for power. The motor was more capable than anything else in the truck, based on experience hauling up to an 11k gooseneck trailer over various conditions including all the way across the Appalachians (Black Mountain, NC included), lots of miles in Chicago rush-hour traffic, and moderately bad winter conditions in Michigan. (We're smart enough not to pull a trailer in a blizzard.)
Or are they uprating everything into the 450/550 class but just calling them 350 (1-ton) class trucks?
Different person here - night and day difference between our 2006 Dodge Ram 2500 quad cab diesel and our 2015 Chevy K2500 crew cab gas. The Chevy has >1000lbs more payload capacity yet rides almost like a car. The Dodge had a paltry 1700 or so payload and rode like an ox-cart. They are similar in overall weight and towing ability.
Yes, I read the other person's mention that the newer Dodge Rams with a coil spring rear are "pretty good." I don't know if that's a heavy duty or 1/2 ton pickup though.
Paltry? Lol...
Load both of those trucks up to 40,000 combined and get back to me. I've done it, and I know what it looks like. I have a scale ticket around somewhere to prove it even. I'll post a photo of it if I can find it.
Saying a Chevy with a gas engine out loads a 3rd gen Dodge diesel...That's like saying a 20" 556 has more range and energy than a 16" .308. Unpossible.
If one truck has bigger brakes than the other other, or even a different gear ratio, they'll issue different weights. Point is, advertise weights only really relevant to magazines and the Royal Canadian police. No one else cares. My DMV doesn't even care. All my trucks are licensed for 26000. They'll let you go higher than that even if you want in this state.
The GM's are nice trucks. They really are. I would own one. But don't kid yourself, They're just not as heavy duty as everybody thinks they are there's a reason you don't see any of those things running around on farms, oil fields or mines.
Independent front suspension, and drop frames don't work all that well off road.
On that Dodge, if you install a set of KYB monomax shocks all of your ride quality issues will disappear. Any truck really. Shocks are wear item.. Most of the time people get real excited with new vehicle because they ride better. Part of that is because they have shocks that aren't completely worn out and oem shocks are really craptastic for the most part and don't last.
I have yet to go more than 50,000 miles on any brand shocks. Sometimes less even. Heck sometimes shocks need changed with the tires.
Thing is, most people can't even tell when they're worn out.
That new 445 horsepower Duramax going to be awesome though. Right up to the point it's going uphill and derates because PCM thinks that has a restricted fuel filter. Even though that's not the problem. But what the problem actually is if there's a leak, god-knows-where, in a system that has to flow uphill..... Trying to outdo physics and all that. Maybe they've changed it on the new one. I'll be surprised though, they've been building them for like 15 years that way.
Lift pump? We don't need no stinking lift pump.....lol..
It has a lot to do with emissions. Control the shift points, control the emissions.
I haven't been around daily driver light duty trucks for awhile. But, as power levels approach what actual heavy duty trucks (Class 8) are producing, I hope they are actually able to stop. Engine brakes are only effective when your one driver axle has traction.
Reminds me of the noob drag racing crowd building a car backwards. Stuff 800 horsepower under the hood while leaving the suspension and brakes untouched.
Yeah, it is hard to imagine. I am actually driving 425 Detroit at the moment. Even though this one produces it at about 2100, and the other ones do it at probably four to five thousand still. It's crazy what technology has done.
And no, I am not driving down the highway. I am off road doing about 20 miles per hours. Don't want all your federalis on this board getting the wrong idea.
You can still get a manual in the Ram. It's the de-tuned version of the motor with somewhere around 330 Hp and 660 Tq
as said before, tow ratings in years past were garbage. seems the trend is to use the sae j2807 standard going forward so they should be more realistic
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/no-go-for-standardized-tow-ratings.html
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Yeah, it is hard to imagine. I am actually driving 425 Detroit at the moment. Even though this one produces it at about 2100, and the other ones do it at probably four to five thousand still. It's crazy what technology has done.
No, more like 2800.
As someone that has an 11 second Dodge 3500,
I will tell you that cooling that 440 hp will be the issue. If one starts to use all that hp up a grade in the summer for any length of time, you will overheat. Not enough coolant capacity and not enough frontal area for the radiator.
That said, I recall pulling an 8k travel trailer one time over the I-5 summit near Mt. Shasta, passed a c5 Vette and he couldn't keep up to try to pass me back.
A little extra hp can be fun....
The other thing you have to factor in is where the torque peak is. If it's above highway speeds in top gear, then it won't do most people any good.
Used to be a big difference between the Cummins vs Ford/chevy in that aspect.
Had a close friend who had a newer Ford 250. Kept telling me I needed to chip my Ram, do the air cleaner and exhaust thing, etc.
Then he drove mine pulling his 24' boat. After a bit, he quietly commented that maybe I did not need to chip mine.
Much of that was because the Cummins torque peak was at a usable rpm. Usable in OD, even pulling a good load
And I discount HP entirely, useless in diesel truck debates
As to turning radius they all suck compared to a Camry. But early 3rd gen ram would turn 10' shorter than its counterparts. Can't believe Ford and GM would be able to do much more than match it. (Though I've not compared recently)
Sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
The only heavy duty truck I want is built by legacy power wagon..trouble is, I'll need to hit the lottery before I could consider buying one..Otherwise, I guess I'll stick with my 2011 1/2ton serria 4wd, It works well for what I want to do, and more important,it's paid for..50k for a truck? That's nuts..
No, more like 2800.
I'll pay attention tomorrow on tuned one I'm driving for harvest. Theres reprogramed 525 DDEC IV in the fleet also. That one runs.
You can still get a manual in the Ram. It's the de-tuned version of the motor with somewhere around 330 Hp and 660 Tq
Yeah that kinda sucks. I'm sure it has to do with the transmission. I wished they'd just say F it and step up to a twin countershaft transmission. They'd probably only sell like seven of them.....but hey, a guy can dream right?
I don't know on the others, but I know on the newer dodge automatics they only put out full torque in the1:1 gear.
as said before, tow ratings in years past were garbage. seems the trend is to use the sae j2807 standard going forward so they should be more realistic
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/no-go-for-standardized-tow-ratings.html
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Nice. Thanks for the link.
I'll pay attention tomorrow on tuned one I'm driving for harvest. Theres reprogramed 525 DDEC IV in the fleet also. That one runs.
ones that are modified and tuned, and have lost the rev limiter, may indeed have a higher power curve. Especially the v-8's. My peak power, 1150 hp, occurs about 3600. Torque is beyond the 2000 lbft limit of the dyno at 2600.
Stock however is usually rev limited around 3300 and peak hp from 26-2800.
Not sure about newest Ford and GM offerings.
ones that are modified and tuned, and have lost the rev limiter, may indeed have a higher power curve. Especially the v-8's. My peak power, 1150 hp, occurs about 3600. Torque is beyond the 2000 lbft limit of the dyno at 2600.
Stock however is usually rev limited around 3300 and peak hp from 26-2800.
Not sure about newest Ford and GM offerings.
I love everything about this post
ramairthree
09-29-16, 00:42
Our RAM 2500 is like a yacht on the inside. Leather, NaV, etc.
Which is fitting.
Because the turn radius is like one.
Even the gas engines are impressive now.
Moose-Knuckle
09-29-16, 01:18
Speaking of Dodges, if I win the lottery I'm ordering a Legacy Power Wagon 4 door.
http://www.legacyclassictrucks.com/i-24468964-1949-dodge-power-wagon-4dr.html
You gotta have a minimum of about $50k to start playing. I bought a new Dodge Ram 2500 diesel back in 2006 for $33k. You can't touch one for anywhere close to that nowadays. Im not sure what my next one will be. Currently I drive a 2013 f-250 with a 6.2l gas motor.
My next one will be a late 90's Ford with a 7.3. No desire to take on a 10 year payment plan for a new truck.
Travelingchild
09-29-16, 06:43
...I am actually driving 425 Detroit at the moment. Even though this one produces it at about 2100,...
Pardon my ignorance but what is a 425 Detroit and what vehicle does it go in?
Pardon my ignorance but what is a 425 Detroit and what vehicle does it go in?
425 hp Detroit Diesel. 12.7 liter. It goes in one of these.
http://autoimages.org/wp-content/uploads/parser/Kenworth-t600-6.jpg
My next one will be a late 90's Ford with a 7.3. No desire to take on a 10 year payment plan for a new truck.
My buddy spent almost a year trying find a 7.3. Great motors though.
Someone mentioned a lack of brake upgrades. I always find it funny when I see 6"+ lifted trucks on 40" tires with no brake or gear ratio upgrades. Hell I am surprised the manufactures have not switched from those rubber type lines to stainless braided Kevlar reinforced lines. They do not cost much and completely remove any brake fade and prevent UV deterioration. I got Crown lines on my truck and it was cheap at around $130; amazing difference and probably my most favorable upgrades.
Someone mentioned a lack of brake upgrades. I always find it funny when I see 6"+ lifted trucks on 40" tires with no brake or gear ratio upgrades. Hell I am surprised the manufactures have not switched from those rubber type lines to stainless braided Kevlar reinforced lines. They do not cost much and completely remove any brake fade and prevent UV deterioration. I got Crown lines on my truck and it was cheap at around $130; amazing difference and probably my most favorable upgrades.
Yea, but you gotta remember 99% of people with those rigs don't even wheel their sh*t.
Yea, but you gotta remember 99% of people with those rigs don't even wheel their sh*t.
Very true.
I bought a Peterbilt in February with an ISX with new engine, rears, and transmission 100K before I bought it... for a paltry sum of $32K cash. I've worked that truck since then and it's paid for itself already. It sure is tough to consider paying $50K for a pickup.
My '06 D-max 2500HD has 150K on it right now and drives just fine. I can't even see a need for more than the 360HP it already has. I just figure I'll swallow the $5K in repairs it needs (injectors and a bunch of small items) and keep it rolling. Better than buying another used one with problems I don't know about.
I also own a Ford with a 7.3. While parts are cheaper, it has not been more reliable than my D-max by any stretch of the imagination.
My buddy spent almost a year trying find a 7.3. Great motors though.
Yah, that's good, old school diesel power by International. It's right there with the old 5.9L 12V Cummins.
Yah, that's good, old school diesel power by International. It's right there with the old 5.9L 12V Cummins.
12v a much better and more reliable engine. No comparison with a P-pump to the HPOP injection.
The 7.3 with indirect chamber and HPOP injection leaves much to be desired along with low HP/liter. However, they would run a long time. A very sturdy bottom end at stock power.
My buddy spent almost a year trying find a 7.3. Great motors though.
When I'm looking, they're nowhere to be found; when I'm broke, they're everywhere.
Travelingchild
09-29-16, 20:35
425 hp Detroit Diesel. 12.7 liter. It goes in one of these.
http://autoimages.org/wp-content/uploads/parser/Kenworth-t600-6.jpg
Thanks, new to this game my bosses' new toy 1990 Peterbuilt 6x6, As I'm the only one with the CDL in the Co. I have to drive it and train him LOLhttp://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd214/fallsafe/IMG_1362.jpg (http://s226.photobucket.com/user/fallsafe/media/IMG_1362.jpg.html)
Leaveammoforme
09-29-16, 20:42
Thanks, new to this game my bosses' new toy 1990 Peterbuilt 6x6, As I'm the only one with the CDL in the Co. I have to drive it and train him LOLhttp://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd214/fallsafe/IMG_1362.jpg (http://s226.photobucket.com/user/fallsafe/media/IMG_1362.jpg.html)
I love playing with the 4wd/6wd biggin's.
Let's see here....Flip this to 'Low'....rotate that to 'Low'...slide this back to 'Low'...pull that towards me and back. Punch it. I'm doing 0.5 mph on the floor!
When I'm looking, they're nowhere to be found; when I'm broke, they're everywhere.
That's usually how it works.
I bought a Peterbilt in February with an ISX with new engine, rears, and transmission 100K before I bought it... for a paltry sum of $32K cash. I've worked that truck since then and it's paid for itself already. It sure is tough to consider paying $50K for a pickup.
My '06 D-max 2500HD has 150K on it right now and drives just fine. I can't even see a need for more than the 360HP it already has. I just figure I'll swallow the $5K in repairs it needs (injectors and a bunch of small items) and keep it rolling. Better than buying another used one with problems I don't know about.
I also own a Ford with a 7.3. While parts are cheaper, it has not been more reliable than my D-max by any stretch of the imagination.
06' LBZ Duramax is a gem. Finest of the bunch in my opinion. If I were to buy a used chevy, that would be it.
They just did everything right. Calibration was solid. Six speed, didn't sound like someone dumped marbles into the cylinders and left them there like The LLYs were.
The 07' LMM I was around was a joke though. Had the low hpcr fuel issue. What a damn nightmare that was.
The 7.3 was awesome as well. They had a few issues. You needed to carry a spare glow plug relay (could use a screw driver in a pintch) and also a cam sensor. That was a very common failure.
The transmissions were junk for the most part. Not hard to fix. High pressue oil system had some gremlins there too. Valve cover harness was an issue.
Over all though, they were fairly solid. Biggest problems were glow plugs, good batteries, and good starters. They were the king until the 6.oh no came out. That was a real racket. Back then we didn't have these good camera phone's, but I'll never forget seeing 10 brand new 04 and 05s with the cabs off...... If they hadn't screwed up so bad, non of the other brands would have the hold they do now.
Tell you this, if you have a 97' powerstroke, and it shuts off every time you turn left, and doesn't leave codes, I'll save you about 3 grand and 50 hours of diagnostic time. The Injector Driver Module is full of water..... Oh eff me that was a nightmare. Funny now. But May 2005 was a very very dark time full of anguish and wanting to lay down in the middle of the road......lol...
That's usually how it works.
When I'm looking, they're nowhere to be found; when I'm broke, they're everywhere.
Even more so if you want one with a handshaker.
Even more so if you want one with a handshaker.
Those are way hard to find too.
Tell you this, if you have a 97' powerstroke, and it shuts off every time you turn left, and doesn't leave codes, I'll save you about 3 grand and 50 hours of diagnostic time. The Injector Driver Module is full of water..... Oh eff me that was a nightmare. Funny now. But May 2005 was a very very dark time full of anguish and wanting to lay down in the middle of the road......lol... I had similar experience.. my left bank of cylinders would shut off at random. Bought a new module, same deal... turned out to be a short in the valve cover gasket (which contains the control wiring). It would always test fine, but fail randomly..
Coal Dragger
09-29-16, 23:25
All of this thread makes me happy that I currently have no need for a diesel powered pickup truck. I'll stick with my paid for 2007 Tundra and the relatively simple gas motor.
I deal with diesel motive power at work, but won't bore you guys with my observations of medium speed diesels and their foibles. Realistically for what they get put through, locomotive diesel engines are insanely robust.
Leaveammoforme
09-30-16, 02:55
All of this thread makes me happy that I currently have no need for a diesel powered pickup truck. I'll stick with my paid for 2007 Tundra and the relatively simple gas motor.
I deal with diesel motive power at work, but won't bore you guys with my observations of medium speed diesels and their foibles. Realistically for what they get put through, locomotive diesel engines are insanely robust.
I see what you did there;)
Little, nancy, high rev'ing 6 & 7 liters can't be repurposed like the big bores can...
http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq194/leaveammoforme/Mobile%20Uploads/20160930_021719-1-1_zpssy36olqf.jpg (http://s447.photobucket.com/user/leaveammoforme/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160930_021719-1-1_zpssy36olqf.jpg.html)
Quite possibly the largest intake valve 99.9% of people will ever see. You saw here on M4C holding my paper towels, folks.
SilverBullet432
09-30-16, 06:26
While I wouldn't call a 1 ton "heavy duty" I do like the new Chevs and Fords alot. I've always been a Ford guy, but these new silverado 2500s look good! Especially the Z71 all colormatched ones..
All of this thread makes me happy that I currently have no need for a diesel powered pickup truck. I'll stick with my paid for 2007 Tundra and the relatively simple gas motor.
How cute... my cummins ram can tow your Tundra and get the same fuel mileage as yours does driving! :-)
I'd be all over a Toyota Hi-Lux quad cab if they imported one like they sell elsewhere. Tacomas and Tundras may be nice car alternatives, but won't come anywhere close to meeting my needs. Tundras especially, stupid high bed height, especially the side walls & tailgate. Yet less ground clearance than a ram. IE: it was not high due to some function increase, it was just styling. This tells me they never intended the truck to be used as a truck.
Older Tacomas were nice usable trucks, but still sucked at fuel mileage. But at least they were reasonable in cost.
I'm disappointed with the whole DEF deal...talked to several dealer mechanics & say this is the majority of their diesel work on new trucks. Most all my buddies have had some sort problems & down time in dealer getting DEF issues fixed. Unacceptable the way the govt forces unnecessary emission crap creating problems for the consumer. My last diesels were on 02 7.3 & an 05 6.0. Many ford guys considered the 7.3 the best & the 6.0 the worst, both of mine were great but the 6.0 ran circles around the 7.3 in regards to giddy-up. These were company trucks & they were nice but I 'really' did't need a diesel for their application.
My current company truck is a chevy 3/4 2011 6.0 gas & has only been in the shop for basic PM's & has 238k miles...unless I just had the throw down money to get a diesel from a want perspective, pay to delete the DEF I will be sticking to gas engines. It's really the better option if you don't have to have it. 99% of the guys I know buy diesel's and don't pull anything heavier than a single axle boat / trailer because they have the cool factor. Gas is a better option & big $$$ saver for most 3/4 ton drivers & sad diesel owners get force fed DEF. I hope they get it ironed out.
12v a much better and more reliable engine. No comparison with a P-pump to the HPOP injection.
Won't disagree. The 12V is one of the finest engines ever made IMO, of any type even. Good torque if not a lot of HP, dead nuts reliable and relatively easy to work on. I joke that my 12V, ole whitey, will tow anything in the world anywhere @ 30mph and will keep doing it through 2 or 3 truck bodies and a half dozen transmissions....
Yes, and for those of you with aviation flightline experience, AF or civilian, those electrical generation carts (Hobarts) were often powered by 12v Cummins (I've seen 4 cyl Cummins there as well) and could run on jet fuel.
I'm disappointed with the whole DEF deal...talked to several dealer mechanics & say this is the majority of their diesel work on new trucks. Most all my buddies have had some sort problems & down time in dealer getting DEF issues fixed. Unacceptable the way the govt forces unnecessary emission crap creating problems for the consumer. My last diesels were on 02 7.3 & an 05 6.0. Many ford guys considered the 7.3 the best & the 6.0 the worst, both of mine were great but the 6.0 ran circles around the 7.3 in regards to giddy-up. These were company trucks & they were nice but I 'really' did't need a diesel for their application.
My current company truck is a chevy 3/4 2011 6.0 gas & has only been in the shop for basic PM's & has 238k miles...unless I just had the throw down money to get a diesel from a want perspective, pay to delete the DEF I will be sticking to gas engines. It's really the better option if you don't have to have it. 99% of the guys I know buy diesel's and don't pull anything heavier than a single axle boat / trailer because they have the cool factor. Gas is a better option & big $$$ saver for most 3/4 ton drivers & sad diesel owners get force fed DEF. I hope they get it ironed out.
I agree. We have lots of diesel trucks at work and its always DEF sensor this, DEF tank that, limp mode this, limp mode that.
I will not own a DEF equipped diesel truck.
99% of the guys I know buy diesel's and don't pull anything heavier than a single axle boat / trailer because they have the cool factor.
IMO if you're towing <10k and/or infrequently, there's nothing wrong with a gas burning 3/4 ton. Something like the 6.4L hemi that you can get in the Ram or especially (if Ford gets smart) that Ecoboost 5.0 they're working on in an F250. A 5.0 turbo V8 turning out 450ft-lbs @ 2k and the ability to rev for high HP would make a good tow platform for the conditions I described.
Gas is a better option & big $$$ saver for most 3/4 ton drivers & sad diesel owners get force fed DEF. I hope they get it ironed out.
The DEF is a lot better than it was even a few years ago so I expect it will. Just about everything new goes through growing pains. Everyone forgets that the early emissions equipment on gasoline engines was an absolute nightmare too but now problems are pretty rare overall.
Coal Dragger
09-30-16, 14:47
How cute... my cummins ram can tow your Tundra and get the same fuel mileage as yours does driving! :-)
I'd be all over a Toyota Hi-Lux quad cab if they imported one like they sell elsewhere. Tacomas and Tundras may be nice car alternatives, but won't come anywhere close to meeting my needs. Tundras especially, stupid high bed height, especially the side walls & tailgate. Yet less ground clearance than a ram. IE: it was not high due to some function increase, it was just styling. This tells me they never intended the truck to be used as a truck.
Older Tacomas were nice usable trucks, but still sucked at fuel mileage. But at least they were reasonable in cost.
That's nice. Maybe you have a need for a diesel, I don't.
The money a diesel owner saves in fuel, appears to be completely eaten up in maintenance costs and down time.
That's nice. Maybe you have a need for a diesel, I don't.
The money a diesel owner saves in fuel, appears to be completely eaten up in maintenance costs and down time.
Before DEF I would disagree vehemently. Stupid enviro-faggots.
Coal Dragger
09-30-16, 14:59
Oh I don't know. The several thousand dollars my friend spent on replacement injectors for his old Duramax could bough a hell of a lot of gasoline.
That's nice. Maybe you have a need for a diesel, I don't.
The money a diesel owner saves in fuel, appears to be completely eaten up in maintenance costs and down time.
And my comment was more snarky than I intended.
My point was that light trucks have taken a direction that deviates significantly from their original usage. The Tundra does not work as well for real truck usage as many would want. But is a fine vehicle if you don't mind relatively poor mileage. (And could full well be more reliable than the DEF diesels, I'll concede that) Nice and comfy, friends love theirs.
But if you need a work truck to put stuff in and out of the bed every day, that can carry heavy loads, get decent mileage, etc, then there are advantages to diesels that others may not see. And most do not realize the advantages. It amazes me that the half ton gas trucks do as bad on fuel as they do...
Oh I don't know. The several thousand dollars my friend spent on replacement injectors for his old Duramax could bough a hell of a lot of gasoline.
Well same for the folks dealing with Honda driveline issues, etc.
I know gen 2 & 3 cummins rams that are 200-300k miles with zero repair issues of that nature. and one 450. And I also know of certain 24v and ford models that never got right, constant problems. (Don't know as much as duramaxes).
Me, I'll stuck to commonrail cummins, no DEF.
The DEF is a lot better than it was even a few years ago so I expect it will. Just about everything new goes through growing pains. Everyone forgets that the early emissions equipment on gasoline engines was an absolute nightmare too but now problems are pretty rare overall.
the problem is the US EPA is making diesels meet the gas standards. Only country in the world doing so. Diesels beat them all on emissions with the exception of NOX due to the higher compression ratios. And now they added particulates as well. (even though modern diesels do not emit much carbon particles)
Diesels in Europe do not have this stuff, and they are heavily green. That's cause they advantages of diesels (fuel, emissions, and work per cubic centimeter) is much higher. Overall, diesels pollute less than gas, so they adjust the standards to allow for that.
They have light diesels that drive like gas cars, you'd not know if you did not check. And have had their fleets shift 80-90% diesel due to economy/emissions.
US is just stupid on this. To the point I'm suspecting collusion between big oil and the gov. (In the form of lobbyists). US refineries added cracking in the 70-80's to produce more gas by "cracking" diesel and thicker fuel into gas to meet demand. (Normally the amount of diesel, gas, jp, whatever is largely fixed in a barrel of crude)
But in the 90's & 2000's gas usage tapered off as fuel economies improved. So now there is a bit of a surplus of gas and shortage of diesel. So there is incentive to encourage gas usage over diesel.
there is also the risk of biodiesel negatively impacting big oil. I've run B100-B25 in my vehicles and use it when it financially makes sense. (Cheap dino oil, it does not)
brickboy240
09-30-16, 16:06
By 2012, they got the injector problem on the Duramax 6.6 pretty much solved. I had a 2013 and never had a lick of trouble in the 156k miles I owned it. Very reliable and it got way better hwy mileage than any of my friends with Super Dutys or Cummins diesels.
Never had problems with DEF, just had to remember to fill the tank and that was about every 3-5k miles depending on if I was pulling or not.
The Cummins in Bradley's were beasts of engines. They ate coolant and oil though.
How cute... my cummins ram can tow your Tundra and get the same fuel mileage as yours does driving! :-)
I'd be all over a Toyota Hi-Lux quad cab if they imported one like they sell elsewhere. Tacomas and Tundras may be nice car alternatives, but won't come anywhere close to meeting my needs. Tundras especially, stupid high bed height, especially the side walls & tailgate. Yet less ground clearance than a ram. IE: it was not high due to some function increase, it was just styling. This tells me they never intended the truck to be used as a truck.
Older Tacomas were nice usable trucks, but still sucked at fuel mileage. But at least they were reasonable in cost.
Outside of the Raptor the Tundra has the highest ground clearance of any 1/2 ton truck. Its very functional for doing things like this:
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/20151121_131317_zpsjskna7mo.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/3389_zpsvsuhqha6.jpeg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/20151121_113113_zpseakzhvwd.jpg
the problem is the US EPA is making diesels meet the gas standards. Only country in the world doing so. Diesels beat them all on emissions with the exception of NOX due to the higher compression ratios. And now they added particulates as well. (even though modern diesels do not emit much carbon particles)
Diesels in Europe do not have this stuff, and they are heavily green. That's cause they advantages of diesels (fuel, emissions, and work per cubic centimeter) is much higher. Overall, diesels pollute less than gas, so they adjust the standards to allow for that.
They have light diesels that drive like gas cars, you'd not know if you did not check. And have had their fleets shift 80-90% diesel due to economy/emissions.
US is just stupid on this. To the point I'm suspecting collusion between big oil and the gov. (In the form of lobbyists). US refineries added cracking in the 70-80's to produce more gas by "cracking" diesel and thicker fuel into gas to meet demand. (Normally the amount of diesel, gas, jp, whatever is largely fixed in a barrel of crude)
But in the 90's & 2000's gas usage tapered off as fuel economies improved. So now there is a bit of a surplus of gas and shortage of diesel. So there is incentive to encourage gas usage over diesel.
there is also the risk of biodiesel negatively impacting big oil. I've run B100-B25 in my vehicles and use it when it financially makes sense. (Cheap dino oil, it does not)
won't disagree with you. I'm not a fan of the emissions gear. I'm just saying it's better than when it started.
Def trucks have issues but they're less problem prone than trucks with just the particulate filter. those had bad filter clogging issues and got horrible fuel economy. 6.4 powerstrokes were known to get 9 whole mpg unloaded on the hwy and half that towing.
my swag is that sans emissions gear modern diesels would make the same power but get 30mpg or better
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Outside of the Raptor the Tundra has the highest ground clearance of any 1/2 ton truck. Its very functional for doing things like this:
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/20151121_131317_zpsjskna7mo.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/3389_zpsvsuhqha6.jpeg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/20151121_113113_zpseakzhvwd.jpg
It depends on what it is outfitted with wheel wise.
It is also one hidious truck, but I would still take one over a Titan.
I was talking stock.
I'll tell you what though.... my buddies 2016 F150 FX4 is fantastic off road.
I was talking stock.
I'll tell you what though.... my buddies 2016 F150 FX4 is fantastic off road.
I was too. They have 17" up to 20" rim options and various tire size options available. Those will change clearance and ride height. I do like the new TRD's. They need to step their frame game up though. Riveted reinforcements, seriously Toyota?
Travelingchild
09-30-16, 22:54
. ..99% of the guys I know buy diesel's and don't pull anything heavier than a single axle boat / trailer because they have the cool factor...
I'm looking to go 3/4 ton but can't decide.
1 I live at 6000ft msl and pull a mountain pass at 8400
2 Rarely tow, but looking to put a Boss Snowplow
3 Month or so of Negative 30 even with a block heater my f150 is hard to start, truck stays outside
4 High end clients want me to tow horse trailers & 8000 lb boats I bill out at $50 per hour & 57 cents mileage
5 At regular job need to pull 10,000 lbs trailers occasionally
Company pays mileage & maintenance on Personal vehicles used for work related use
Thoughts Gas or Diesel? given the above?
Couple videos of my buddies F150 FX4 on the Crown King Trail. The videos never do the obstacle justice as you can't see how steep it really is. I can tell you that the guys with the lifted Jeeps made several statements about how surprised they were at the ability of that F150.
Only real thing I think his truck could be better at (besides the factory tires) was the motor. He had the 3.5 Ecoboost and the line between needing more power and having too much power was very fine. In a rock climbing scenario the V8 would be easier to control.
https://youtu.be/z11R3YblXN0
https://youtu.be/iqIoglGjQQU
Looks like Dodge is throwing an all in hand against the Raptor...what do you guys think?? Man I love competition!!
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1106388_ram-just-unveiled-the-hellcat-powered-ram-rebel-trx-concept
~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry to de-rail / hijack but excited about this Trackcat....I just got the wife a Tahoe & asked how she like the looks of this and went meh. Maybe in a couple years when ready I'll just have her test drive one to see if anything changes her current perspective. I'm sure it will be similar to the SRT but a hellcat Grand Cherokee should have a slightly different looking stroke when you see it going down the road but nice to get a hint of what we may get dealt.
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1105904_we-now-know-what-the-hellcat-powered-jeep-grand-cherokee-looks-like
I'm looking to go 3/4 ton but can't decide.
1 I live at 6000ft msl and pull a mountain pass at 8400
2 Rarely tow, but looking to put a Boss Snowplow
3 Month or so of Negative 30 even with a block heater my f150 is hard to start, truck stays outside
4 High end clients want me to tow horse trailers & 8000 lb boats I bill out at $50 per hour & 57 cents mileage
5 At regular job need to pull 10,000 lbs trailers occasionally
Company pays mileage & maintenance on Personal vehicles used for work related use
Thoughts Gas or Diesel? given the above?
You are precisely the user segment that Nissan built the new Titan xd for.
I'm not a Nissan fan, but they put a terrific Cummins v-8 in it.
I'm looking to go 3/4 ton but can't decide.
1 I live at 6000ft msl and pull a mountain pass at 8400
2 Rarely tow, but looking to put a Boss Snowplow
3 Month or so of Negative 30 even with a block heater my f150 is hard to start, truck stays outside
4 High end clients want me to tow horse trailers & 8000 lb boats I bill out at $50 per hour & 57 cents mileage
5 At regular job need to pull 10,000 lbs trailers occasionally
Company pays mileage & maintenance on Personal vehicles used for work related use
Thoughts Gas or Diesel? given the above?
I have always owned diesel pickups and this is likely my last. GM trucks with 6.0 gas engines are only eclipsed by the D-Max at the very top of towing capacity. If you are towing less than 15,000# you probably will be just fine with a gas engine. My friend's long bed crew cab 2016 2500HD gets within 1mpg of my similar sized Duramax.
1) The high h.p. gas engine will do fine at those altitudes.
2) Another reason to get a gas engine. Snow plows put less wear and tear on a gas engine truck due to the lower weight of the gas engine. I plow with a diesel because it allows me to actually push more snow since I have more weight over the front tires, but it comes at a cost in front end suspension parts...but I plow 2 acres every snowfall so capacity is important to me. Being in Alaska, I plow a bunch.
3) While my '06 Duramax is the best starting vehicle I have ever owned. It starts regularly at -30F without being plugged in. It has started at -40F without plugging in after sitting a week. The secret is good batteries and synthetic oil. I cannot same the same about any other diesel I have owned. I have NEVER needed to plug a gas engine truck or car in to get it to start here, even down to -40F. I am a fanatic about new batteries every three years, so maybe that's why I don't have an issue.
4) That's a small load for the new gas engine trucks. They can handle that with ease.
5) Also a non-issue for the new gas engine trucks.
What you have listed would not lead me to buying a diesel. My next truck won't be one. The gas engine trucks have gotten very good and the fuel mileage is very similar. There just isn't the savings to make it make business sense to me.
My diesel will cost me over $10K in engine repairs over the last 16 months AND I am doing the injector replacement next week in-house. I kissed any fuel $ savings I would have had over a gas engine truck a long time ago. My truck only has 150,000 on it. If new trucks weren't so expensive, I wouldn't fix this one. I figure that if I can get another 100K out of the engine repairs, it was probably worth it. I know tons of 2500HD's locally with gas engines that have had zero engine related repairs at the 150K mark. I can't think of a guy I know with a diesel... Ford, Chevy or Dodge that hasn't dropped a couple grand into their engine in the first 150K.
I chose not to buy a diesel because of maintenance costs. Plus Im only towing about 6k pounds. However if someone was paying for my maintenance that might sway my decision.
But like AKDoug was saying, the newer model 3/4 ton gas trucks are no slouch. On Youtube there is a channel called The Fast Lane Truck that does truck reviews. They are in Colorado and are famous for their towing test called the Ike Gauntlet where they tow a usually fairly heavy trailer up the highway that goes through the Eisenhower Tunnel. Its around 8 miles at a 6 percent grade at 12000 feet elevation. The Chevy and Ford gas trucks do it no problem. The Dodge 6.4 Hemi had some problems and actually performed so bad I suspect something was actually wrong with the truck. My wifes friend has a 6.4 Ram 2500 and tows her horses around Az and has no problem with it pulling up out mountains, which are not as tall as Colorado but still.
Chevy 2500 6.0 vid........ sorry the chick hostess is a bit annoying in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ8fn3PvNhQ&index=43&list=PLjXptazwnueqnqm_Y8NwotkAf1bXVTRvN
Ford F250 6.2 vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upXsZIoR2VU&list=PLjXptazwnueqnqm_Y8NwotkAf1bXVTRvN&index=52
Travelingchild
10-01-16, 05:57
2) due to thee. lower weight of the gas engine plow with a diesel because it allows me to actually push more snow since I have more weight over the front
thanks forgot about the engine weight difference
4) That's a small load for the new gas engine trucks. They can handle that with ease.
Given the altitude?
Besides the engine torque, I actually more concerned about the brakes and stopping ability hauling a load at altitude.
I have always owned diesel pickups and this is likely my last. GM trucks with 6.0 gas engines are only eclipsed by the D-Max at the very top of towing capacity. If you are towing less than 15,000# you probably will be just fine with a gas engine. My friend's long bed crew cab 2016 2500HD gets within 1mpg of my similar sized Duramax.
1) The high h.p. gas engine will do fine at those altitudes.
2) Another reason to get a gas engine. Snow plows put less wear and tear on a gas engine truck due to the lower weight of the gas engine. I plow with a diesel because it allows me to actually push more snow since I have more weight over the front tires, but it comes at a cost in front end suspension parts...but I plow 2 acres every snowfall so capacity is important to me. Being in Alaska, I plow a bunch.
3) While my '06 Duramax is the best starting vehicle I have ever owned. It starts regularly at -30F without being plugged in. It has started at -40F without plugging in after sitting a week. The secret is good batteries and synthetic oil. I cannot same the same about any other diesel I have owned. I have NEVER needed to plug a gas engine truck or car in to get it to start here, even down to -40F. I am a fanatic about new batteries every three years, so maybe that's why I don't have an issue.
4) That's a small load for the new gas engine trucks. They can handle that with ease.
5) Also a non-issue for the new gas engine trucks.
What you have listed would not lead me to buying a diesel. My next truck won't be one. The gas engine trucks have gotten very good and the fuel mileage is very similar. There just isn't the savings to make it make business sense to me.
My diesel will cost me over $10K in engine repairs over the last 16 months AND I am doing the injector replacement next week in-house. I kissed any fuel $ savings I would have had over a gas engine truck a long time ago. My truck only has 150,000 on it. If new trucks weren't so expensive, I wouldn't fix this one. I figure that if I can get another 100K out of the engine repairs, it was probably worth it. I know tons of 2500HD's locally with gas engines that have had zero engine related repairs at the 150K mark. I can't think of a guy I know with a diesel... Ford, Chevy or Dodge that hasn't dropped a couple grand into their engine in the first 150K.
We must bed long lost brothers......lol I haven't had a lot of repair, but I did just have to put a 600 dollar BD exhaust manifold in because the stock one shrank...(Great improvement. I figured it would be no gain, but I was wrong.) But still....
This is pretty much how I feel and my situation also. My 05' cumnins has been exceptional. I'll never sell it. But, I probably won't by any of the newer ones either unless my situation in life changes. (I got offered a seemingly lucrative job last week. So we'll see...)
The costs are so high like AK said. Turbo and injectors money wise basically buys you a goodwrench GM V8 new, in a box, with warranty.... I know of several 200k chevy gassers and they all run perfect. Possibly go longer yet before overhaul.
I love diesels. Owned them, raced them, fixed them and worked the balls off of them. But it's to the point that it's just not worth it anymore for other than the hell yeah factor. Especially with the fuel cost now. It cant pay even if it wanted to.
I'm looking to go 3/4 ton but can't decide.
1 I live at 6000ft msl and pull a mountain pass at 8400
2 Rarely tow, but looking to put a Boss Snowplow
3 Month or so of Negative 30 even with a block heater my f150 is hard to start, truck stays outside
4 High end clients want me to tow horse trailers & 8000 lb boats I bill out at $50 per hour & 57 cents mileage
5 At regular job need to pull 10,000 lbs trailers occasionally
Company pays mileage & maintenance on Personal vehicles used for work related use
Thoughts Gas or Diesel? given the above?
If you are periodically going to pull 4 ton loads, no question diesel.
Big difference in wear & tear, drivability, etc. As in loafing up grades at 2000 rpm vs gas engine screaming at 3500 downshifted to do the same.
In my ram, 1 ton was $800 more than equiv 3/4 ton. Same base springs, but with overloads. So no unloaded ride difference. Heavier duty rear axle. Worth every penny of the additional cost, and also made the up charge for limited slip/locker cheaper.
Gas trucks will probably go single digit mpg with 4+ ton load. My truck might drop to 15-16 mpg, may do better if you stay around 55-60. Sticks would do better.
Downsides: 3 gallon oil changes. Expensive if you pay someone. But watch the oil deals, filters are no biggie, and if you don't want to do it yourself I pay $10 when I supply the oil & filter.
Sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
I have always owned diesel pickups and this is likely my last. GM trucks with 6.0 gas engines are only eclipsed by the D-Max at the very top of towing capacity. If you are towing less than 15,000# you probably will be just fine with a gas engine. My friend's long bed crew cab 2016 2500HD gets within 1mpg of my similar sized Duramax.
There is a very large qualitative difference between towing with gas & diesels. It's all about where the torque peaks are relative to road speed in given gears. Just because a gas engine can do it does not meant that it does it well, or that it will last doing it. That qualitative issue then cascades to stress on the tranny, more shifting, etc.
It's possible to get a gas motor/tranny setup right, we had a 4.0l Explorer that towed our boat much better than 350 based suburbans or the Pathfinder it replaced. Would lock into overdrive and just go. The 350 was constantly up/down shifting, even on small overpasses (not even real hills). Yet was a bigger, higher HP, worse gas mileage motor. But that was a 2000lb boat.
I routinely tow 7000-8000 lbs with my ram, and it's like it's not even there. (Ride or power). And flat tow a pinz (4-5k lbs) with hardly a measurable drop in mileage. (maybe .5 mpg)
What you have listed would not lead me to buying a diesel. My next truck won't be one. The gas engine trucks have gotten very good and the fuel mileage is very similar. There just isn't the savings to make it make business sense to me.
If you don't tow much, then I'd agree it may not make financial sense.
My diesel will cost me over $10K in engine repairs over the last 16 months AND I am doing the injector replacement next week in-house. I kissed any fuel $ savings I would have had over a gas engine truck a long time ago. My truck only has 150,000 on it. If new trucks weren't so expensive, I wouldn't fix this one.
All I can say is this has not bee the experience of Cummins owners I know.
As to mtc, yes you will use 3x the oil each change. But most modern gas engines are now specing synthetic, where diesels are still gtg with dino oil. So you lose much of that cost difference.
I chose not to buy a diesel because of maintenance costs. Plus Im only towing about 6k pounds. However if someone was paying for my maintenance that might sway my decision.
2003 Cummins 5.9 HO. Other than oil changes, air, and fuel filters the only mtc required to 250-300k is adjusting the valves at 150k.
I put a $50 water pump on mine at 170k. Starter ($200) at 180k. Lift pump (not really the engine) at 170'ish.
Other than that, it just runs, strong. I think you guys may just be buying the wrong diesels. 2nd gen 24v did have pump issues initially, but 3rd gen common rail has been strong & reliable. Just really hard to beat the Cummins 5.9's. Can't speak to later motors, though I've not see the class issues like haunted the 6.0l Ford or the Duramaxx.
My 05' Cummings has been exceptional. I'll never sell it. But, I probably won't by any of the newer ones either unless my situation in life changes.
This is my situation. I don't want a DEF truck. Have an 06 Sprinter, bought it specifically to miss the particulate filter and DEF stuff.
I may end up getting annoyed at 200k mile american made truck body & interior nuisance issues, but I can do quite a bit of repair and not even hit the down payment on a new truck. Stuff that goes: Electric seat motor wears out (replaced with a turnbuckle, did not use). Window switch gets wonky. (cheap fix). Seats still going strong at 200k, but expect I will need to recover them at some point. Window latch on rear slider broke. Did replace balljoints at 150k'ish. A/C recharge at 180k (13.5 years on original!)
Without talking brands, if I were towing 10,000lbs on the regular at 6000-8000ft, I would be looking at whatever powerplant made it's own atmosphere, and who I could find that did tunes for towing.
Everything else would basically be personal preference.
ready to hit the road nearly. family vacation with a camper was what I really bought my truck for
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161001/6a3c95eb624d7967623cfe17cf4962f6.jpg
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Travelingchild
10-01-16, 17:54
If you are periodically going to pull 4 ton loads, no question diesel.
Big difference in wear & tear, drivability, etc. As in loafing up grades at 2000 rpm vs gas engine screaming at 3500 downshifted to do the same.
Thats my dilemma, I live higher than most light aircraft fly LOL,
In my ram, 1 ton was $800 more than equiv 3/4 ton. Same base springs, but with overloads. So no unloaded ride difference. Heavier duty rear axle. Worth every penny of the additional cost, and also made the up charge for limited slip/locker cheaper.
I'm actually looks at the Ram2500, Company has Fords & that Big Peterbuilt
Gas trucks will probably go single digit mpg with 4+ ton load. My truck might drop to 15-16 mpg, may do better if you stay around 55-60. Sticks would do better.
Downsides: 3 gallon oil changes. Expensive if you pay someone. But watch the oil deals, filters are no biggie, and if you don't want to do it yourself I pay $10 when I supply the oil & filter.
Boss pays for that maintenance, Basically it's a company truck but he doesn't have the payments or the liability should I do something stupid off the clock..
Sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
Now all I to do is find a Dealer that I won't want to do unpleasant things to within 30 seconds of walking into the showroom, Once I make up my mind.
Just moved to AZ and can't wait to hit Crown King.
Sold my Lariat 4x4 before the move and the wife had approved a Raptor, or the Grand Cherokee with the Hemi. Honestly, I am leaning towards the FX4. Those are nice.
Now all I to do is find a Dealer that I won't want to do unpleasant things to within 30 seconds of walking into the showroom, Once I make up my mind.
if you're looking at the ram depending on the dealer they cut good deals on the oil changes.
Rotella is $12ish a gallon plus $15 for a filter for a total of $51 in stuff. My dealer will sell me 2 oil changes for $140. Since you've got to take the passenger wheel well loose to get to the oil filter it's not worth $19 to do it myself. plus I can tack on a tire rotation and balance for $20 each time.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Just moved to AZ and can't wait to hit Crown King.
Sold my Lariat 4x4 before the move and the wife had approved a Raptor, or the Grand Cherokee with the Hemi. Honestly, I am leaning towards the FX4. Those are nice.
The Raptor is extremely popular here. All dealers sell them above MSRP. I was talking to a salesman at one of the big Ford stores and he told me they hadn't sold one for under 10k over MSRP.
ready to hit the road nearly. family vacation with a camper was what I really bought my truck for
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161001/6a3c95eb624d7967623cfe17cf4962f6.jpg
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Looks like a good time. A jeep JKU and an rv are next in my wish list.
The Raptor is extremely popular here. All dealers sell them above MSRP. I was talking to a salesman at one of the big Ford stores and he told me they hadn't sold one for under 10k over MSRP.
My '17 is on order for MSRP.
Diesels abound in Texas for farm, ranch, and construction. I do see folks driving them who could get by with a lighter truck. When listening to friends talk, they say that the engines have become more complicated in recent years, and their opinion is that they are now much more expensive to maintain. Older Dodges with the Cummins engine are sought after.
The Raptor is extremely popular here. All dealers sell them above MSRP. I was talking to a salesman at one of the big Ford stores and he told me they hadn't sold one for under 10k over MSRP.
That's the story most places. I'm going to try the USAA buying program. Keeps them honest.
If not, I'll get something else. That Grand Cherokee Overland with the Hemi is badazz. Then, there's always the FX4. The Raptor is cool, but not a must have.
That's the story most places. I'm going to try the USAA buying program. Keeps them honest.
If not, I'll get something else. That Grand Cherokee Overland with the Hemi is badazz. Then, there's always the FX4. The Raptor is cool, but not a must have.
When I priced one out using the USAA program it was still like 4k over MSRP.
Like I said though, my buddies FX4 is a hell of a truck. I have another friend that lives up in Flagstaff that just traded his Ram 2500 in on a Hemi Durango. He loves it. Though those are two completely different vehicles you are looking at.
Now all I to do is find a Dealer that I won't want to do unpleasant things to within 30 seconds of walking into the showroom, Once I make up my mind.
Well that's the hard part! :-)
Figure out what invoice and similar is for the exact options you want. You'll have to pay tax most likely, unavoidable. I then go in with a target price for what I want, and then a walk away price written on an index card. I share the target number, and indicate that's what I can get it via Sams/USAA/whatever.
If they don't have the options I want, I don't do dealer locates as you lose all negotiation capability. Check their online inventory to make sure they have exactly what you want.
The last deal I did, I knew they had it in stock, knew it's options, knew it's invoice process (or in my case, Nissan Partner price), etc. went to the Sales/Internet manager. Told him I'm about to buy one cross town, but I'd rather buy XYZ invoice number from him for ABC out the door, no BS, no upsells, no add ons. He looked at his screen for 1-2 minutes, then stuck out his hand.
One other thing: If you live at high elevations, as Shivan said... turbo's make a big difference. EFI will allow gas engines to run right, but only turbos allow delivering sea level air flow (and thus power)
I can't speak to the newer cummins, but I believe the core engine design is still the same. I've never heard of having to take a wheel well liner off to change an oil filter, I can reach mine from underneath or by turning the wheels to one side and reach in past them.
in 13 they reshuffled some things in the engine compartment where you can't do the wheel turn thing anymore. made it "better".
the alternative to the wheel well is spill the filter oil everywhere. some people can do it from the top with a gallon ziploc bag but the one time I tried all I did was make a mess....
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
ramairthree
10-02-16, 12:09
I hate the game.
I don't play around.
Tell me the sale price.
Tell me my trade price.
No monthly payment stuff.
My last was a 70th anniversary Jeep GC.
They first offered 2k less than I would take on my grade and only 500 off the MSRP.
I said look,
I am not going to mess around sorting out the southern 500$ rebate and the military 500$ and the this is the third new vechicle you bought here in 8 years loyalty bonus.
I am not going to get mad and argue.
I'll make an offer,
You will meet it or counter.
I will say OK or I will go get a 4Runner.
It is a rainy day at the end of the month.
There are 2017 models on the lot.
You have to make a hell of a deal to get me to buy this 2016 GC over a 4Runner.
They asked how good of a deal.
I said,
Jeep is giving 0% financing on 2016s,
I want X for my trade and I then wrote down an offer 5k less than sticker for the GC.
Was driving home 30 minutes later in it. They did not counter.
Place before that was a Ford dealer ship. Had bought an expedition there before. They had a GT/CS 5.0 convertible.
It was the end of September. Car had been on lot since March loaded with everything.
They started playing the super desireable car going to sell at MSRP.
I said I'm going home. I am not going to hang around doing some high stress get mad neogtiation game. I would rather be doing something else. I will buy if I like the price. It's almost winter and your convertible will not sell at that price if it has been here since March. (I don't know if it had been on the lot since March, but that was the build date I looked up)
Give me a call with a real price later if you are serious. This is a weekend toy for the wife. I could care less if I get it or not.
They called an hour later with a price less than invoice.
Now,
To be honest,
When I was younger I would get pissed off and just leave.
Now I just leave before they can get me too pissed off.
About a dozen dealership buys in the past 25 years,
And I get better deals now than when I was younger and was going to fight for my deal.
However,
I did pay MSRP on a car 8 years ago.
One of the new Challengers.
I negotiated to only paying MSRP!
Placing were charging over.
I wanted it.
It was like being a rock star though with too much attention because you never saw any on the road in person then it was so new.
I'm on my 4th f150...and it may be my last. I was just looking at a potential upgrade and for me to get into a new equally equipped f150 I'm looking at 53K. The incentives and blah blah blah sound great but when it's all said and done it's still 49K. 49K can get me/you a hell of a lot more than a half ton truck. I'm honestly kind of relieved as I'm anxious to see the new f250 and I'll be considering the other brands as well. Considered the yota as well but I need a quad cab and I like a longer bed(6.5') so options are limited in the half ton category.
I've towed a decent amount with my current rig, 5.0 4x4 with max tow and all the goodies...including a leveling kit and blocks in the rear to clear 35s but never more than 4-6,000 lbs(mainly snowmobiles or boat).
If I was towing often especially in the mountains I'd go diesel. Not hat my truck can't do it...but it's hard on a gasser. Even a bigger one in a 3/4 ton which brings me to my next point.
The 6.0 in the chev/GMC is a pig Asia the 6.2 in the ford. Neither are good options and that's from experience as two of my buddies have had them.
We towed 4 sleds and gear from OHIO to Wyoming in an f350 and averaged 8mpg. Needless to say that truck was sold ASAP!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Though those are two completely different vehicles you are looking at.
Yeah... I've had three F150s of different variations over the years, and I'm just not sure if I want a fourth or not. The most I ever do with my vehicles is take them camping and or hunting. I do take them off road and get them dirty, but that's about it. I don't do serious rock crawling, so I'm thinking that Dodge with the hemi just might be the way to go this time.... But the one I want is almost the same price as the Raptor. Who knows. If I find the right deal on a Lariat FX4 I may just grab one of those.
One of my employees had a '15 Chevy 3/4 ton gasser towing a smaller fiver (9k). To the coast (in CA) he only had a little trouble getting over the coast range and mileage around 7-8 mpg and always revving to get over the hills. Then a trip to Tahoe. 5-6 mpg, overheated tranny, just an awful towing experience. Traded for a '16 Ram diesel. Back to Tahoe. Says he'll never own a gasser again. 'Nuff said.
Yeah... I've had three F150s of different variations over the years, and I'm just not sure if I want a fourth or not. The most I ever do with my vehicles is take them camping and or hunting. I do take them off road and get them dirty, but that's about it. I don't do serious rock crawling, so I'm thinking that Dodge with the hemi just might be the way to go this time.... But the one I want is almost the same price as the Raptor. Who knows. If I find the right deal on a Lariat FX4 I may just grab one of those.
A Ram is worth a look then. Look at the rebel, but I think you would really like the Power Wagon.
I'm not a brand fan boy at all. I try to be objective. If I were buying diesel new right now, and I have been doing this for 30 years, if I consider all factors , (price, power, features, transmissions, interiors and etc.) I would say Ford, Ram, Nissan, GMC. 1234. Yes, Nissan #3. Over D-max and Allison. Pains me to say it- it really does. But, y'all really need to do some research. Objectively.
Allison used to be the best tranny. Not any longer. Very good engine. I don't care who you are. Great interior (with right package). Price? Are you kidding me? More than any of the above. Has the lightest construction the Ford aluminum body notwithstanding.
Like anything else, do good research and make an objective decision like you would an AR.
Or not....
BTW.... Ram and Nissan right now are the best buys price wise by thousands.
Let me put into AR language.
Ram = BCM
Ford = Daniel Defense
Chevy = Noveske
Nissan = LMT
There is no Knights A. in the lineup.
Let me put into AR language.
Ram = BCM
Ford = Daniel Defense
Chevy = Noveske
Nissan = LMT
There is no Knights A. in the lineup.
I wonder if we could get a pick up truck oil and filter thread going? Ha
I was at a party today talking with a few of my wife's extended family members. One has a 2007 Chevy 2500 6.0 work truck with 298k miles on it. He lives in northern Az at roughly 7000 feet elevation and owns a commercial HVAC business. Said his truck has worked very well up in that elevation though he didn't haul or tow huge loads often.
I do think Travelingchild really should take a hard look at the new Nissan Titan XD. Heavy duty frame and axles, weighs over 7k pounds, Cummins 5.0 V8 diesel (which is from their commercial vehicle line), Aisin transmission, 5 year 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty..... Sounds like a nice package.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHsu3W-iNJk&index=19&list=PLjXptazwnueqnqm_Y8NwotkAf1bXVTRvN
To the coast (in CA) he only had a little trouble getting over the coast range and mileage around 7-8 mpg and always revving to get over the hills. Then a trip to Tahoe. 5-6 mpg, overheated tranny, just an awful towing experience. Traded for a '16 Ram diesel. Back to Tahoe. Says he'll never own a gasser again. 'Nuff said.
People just don't understand the difference between paper towing capacity and reality. Just because a Gasser can tow a heavy load (for a bit) does not mean it will do it for long. Or that it's a pleasant experience
I was at a party today talking with a few of my wife's extended family members. One has a 2007 Chevy 2500 6.0 work truck with 298k miles on it. He lives in northern Az at roughly 7000 feet elevation and owns a commercial HVAC business. Said his truck has worked very well up in that elevation though he didn't haul or tow huge loads often.
I do think Travelingchild really should take a hard look at the new Nissan Titan XD. Heavy duty frame and axles, weighs over 7k pounds, Cummins 5.0 V8 diesel (which is from their commercial vehicle line), Aisin transmission, 5 year 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty..... Sounds like a nice package.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHsu3W-iNJk&index=19&list=PLjXptazwnueqnqm_Y8NwotkAf1bXVTRvN
It is nice. They are using AAM axles, which is what Ram and Chevy use. By the numbers it appears Nissan is using the exact same axles, but I don't know that for certain.
Nissan really stepped up their game for the new XD. It is still hard for me to say "Nissan Titan = solid truck". But the XD is that now. Old prejudices die hard.
I wonder if we could get a pick up truck oil and filter thread going? Ha
That one's easy. Chevron Delo for every fluid and grease possible. Baldwin or Wix filters. End of thread.
I mean, you could Sub in Rotella for the oil. But why? When you can buy one of the very best products there is (Delo) at Costco for the cheapest price possible?
Biggest thing is using a product that meets our exceeded the spec. Stay away from the discount lines odd filters that anyone makes. Pure garbage and your not saving anything. The Xtra Efficiency filters are good also. If your in any amount of dust, pass on using the oiled air filters. There's a reason they flow more. It's because they filter less.
It is nice. They are using AAM axles, which is what Ram and Chevy use. By the numbers it appears Nissan is using the exact same axles, but I don't know that for certain.
Nissan really stepped up their game for the new XD. It is still hard for me to say "Nissan Titan = solid truck". But the XD is that now. Old prejudices die hard.
The AAM axles are way nice. We don't Jack around with limit slip problems and seal issues like the danas and ford axles. Superior product in my opinion.
I was at a party today talking with a few of my wife's extended family members. One has a 2007 Chevy 2500 6.0 work truck with 298k miles on it. He lives in northern Az at roughly 7000 feet elevation and owns a commercial HVAC business. Said his truck has worked very well up in that elevation though he didn't haul or tow huge loads often.
I do think Travelingchild really should take a hard look at the new Nissan Titan XD. Heavy duty frame and axles, weighs over 7k pounds, Cummins 5.0 V8 diesel (which is from their commercial vehicle line), Aisin transmission, 5 year 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty..... Sounds like a nice package.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHsu3W-iNJk&index=19&list=PLjXptazwnueqnqm_Y8NwotkAf1bXVTRvN
I think it was smart that Nissan decided to go to a V8 Cummins engine like they did. The reality is is that on the test drive, V8 engines tend to sell themselves better to the average Joe. Most people can't appreciate torque that the in line Motors put out unless they tow lot.
Being a new entry into a market that has a lot of prejudice, I think it was a very smart move on their part.
I actually own a Nissan Murano. It has been a fantastic vehicle. Nissan does some really cool things technology-wise. If the build quality of the new XD pickups is like the Muranos, they should do really well.
I keep waiting for Toyota to get serious about a heavy-duty Market offering.
I really like seeing the competition in that market segment. It is become a semi stale segmen because there hasn't been that much competition. The Big 3 OEM have been able to get away with a lot of bullshit over the years because of it.
I know a lot of people high mileage Tundras And everybody seems pretty happy with them.
Ford's brand loyalty is pretty phenomenal though. I don't know what is. I have owned for Ford's myself also. But, I had to give them a rest when all the 6.0 issues came around. I know several guys though that bought several 6.00 and 6.4 trucks. And they just dealt with all the insanity that came with it.
When people are willing to burn stacks of money, be in agony, and still buy it again, I'd say you've done your job as a marketer.
I think it was smart that Nissan decided to go to a V8 Cummins engine like they did. The reality is is that on the test drive, V8 engines tend to sell themselves better to the average Joe. Most people can't appreciate torque that the in line Motors put out unless they tow lot.
Being a new entry into a market that has a lot of prejudice, I think it was a very smart move on their part.
Honestly I think they only place Nissan made a mistake on the Titan XD is they priced it a little on the high side. It's doesn't have full 3/4 ton capability but only undercuts a 3/4 ton by a little on the low end and is well into 3/4 ton territory on the high end.
Being able to get a "mid-duty" diesel with capabilities of diesels 10 years ago for the mid-30s would have been a home run instead of the triple they hit with it. Perfect for people towing campers, boats, etc etc that don't need full 3/4 ton capabilities....
Ford's brand loyalty is pretty phenomenal though. I don't know what is. I have owned for Ford's myself also. But, I had to give them a rest when all the 6.0 issues came around. I know several guys though that bought several 6.00 and 6.4 trucks. And they just dealt with all the insanity that came with it.
When people are willing to burn stacks of money, be in agony, and still buy it again, I'd say you've done your job as a marketer.
That was a Navistar issue, they just built a shitty engine. I am not sure how Ford handled the warranty and whatnot with them though.
I've been in my GMC 2500Hd for 11 years now and have 237K on it. I've done a lot of engine and suspension upgrades on it just because. Definitely not needed in any way. As is I'm running a tune that dyno's 567hp and almost 900ftlbs of torque. I absolutely love this vehicle. It's a daily driver and from the beginning of September until the end up January I spend most Saturdays in the woods hunting or working my hunting areas. It has never given me a bit of trouble. I've had buddies driving Fords and they have gotten rid of them fairly quickly. The 6.0's and 6.4's were just horrible engines. Even the newer 6.7's are having a few issues but nowhere near what the others had. Basically minor stuff but it's a relatively new engine so that's to be expected. The only other vehicle I'd drive other than a GMC would be a Dodge with the Cummins in it. Great engine. The Duramax Allison combination has been a great one. In quite a few RV's they run Cummins engines mated to an Allison transmission. I like seeing the power ratings coming up. One thing I'm going to dread is getting a new vehicle and having to deal with the DEF fluids. Although there are work arounds for that also.
brickboy240
10-03-16, 13:54
My 2012 2500 GMC had the DEF system and it was not really a hassle. You added a container of DEF every 3-5k miles. That motor and tranny never gave me a lick of trouble and ith ad about 134k on it when I sold it.
That was a Navistar issue, they just built a shitty engine. I am not sure how Ford handled the warranty and whatnot with them though.
They handled them like this......
http://www.eisenhartdiesel.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ford60shelby-003-1000.jpg
They handled them like this......
http://www.eisenhartdiesel.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ford60shelby-003-1000.jpg
Why exactly did they lift the cab off?
steyrman13
10-03-16, 15:04
Why exactly did they lift the cab off?
It's the easiest way to work on the fords. My cousin is a ford diesel mechanic. With a loft you can lift the cab off in no time and have full easy access to anything on the engine.
Why exactly did they lift the cab off?
Well, long and the short is that you can't get to all of the shit that breaks otherwise. So, pull off the cab.
Pretty neat huh....
That was a Navistar issue, they just built a shitty engine. I am not sure how Ford handled the warranty and whatnot with them though.
The 7.0, 6.0 and 6.4 were all Ford spec'd engines built by Navistar. Big feud between the two on who's fault it was. Let to lawsuits and etc.
The Cummins on the other hand are Cummins engines throughout. One buys a Cummins with a Dodge wrapped around it.
D-max is an Isuzu engine.
DMax is a joint venture with Isuzu and Gm being the majority. Been that way since 99' or something like that..... I want to say they're in Ohio or Indiana.
It's been almost 20 years since they started. Good grief where has time gone.
DMax is a joint venture with Isuzu and Gm being the majority. Been that way since 99' or something like that..... I want to say they're in Ohio or Indiana.
It's been almost 20 years since they started. Good grief where has time gone.
Yes, that is what Joe Isuzu said.
My current ford, had to have rear axle rebuilt at 88K - bearing went. Had to have front hubs replaced due to a selenium failure that was causing them to partially engage randomly, just had rear driveshaft replaced as mid carrier bearing went bad(and yes the entire 6.5' driveshaft had to be replaced as the bearing is pressed on and not replaceable). Mind you I tow a little, miles are mostly highway, and the trucks only 4 years old...
My biggest concern now is that the front diff is not serviceable...it's a sealed unit. So no preventative maintenance can be performed and if she goes it needs replaced.
My buddy that had the f350 gasser switched to a tradesman dodge 2500. With what he saved he was able to make it really nice and still save a bundle. Another thing, I think it rides nicer than any of the others as it's got coils springs on all 4.
Man - typing this is making me think about going to check one out myself...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You can cruise the forums for every brand and find people with no issues, and people with a ton of issues. It does not help that people with issues tend to be far more vocal than those without.
I believe no matter which truck you pick, you should be gtg.
The 7.0, 6.0 and 6.4 were all Ford spec'd engines built by Navistar. Big feud between the two on who's fault it was. Let to lawsuits and etc.
The Cummins on the other hand are Cummins engines throughout. One buys a Cummins with a Dodge wrapped around it.
D-max is an Isuzu engine.
The question is whether or not they met Ford's specs. I would say they are both at fault.
My current ford, had to have rear axle rebuilt at 88K - bearing went. Had to have front hubs replaced due to a selenium failure that was causing them to partially engage randomly, just had rear driveshaft replaced as mid carrier bearing went bad(and yes the entire 6.5' driveshaft had to be replaced as the bearing is pressed on and not replaceable). Mind you I tow a little, miles are mostly highway, and the trucks only 4 years old...
My biggest concern now is that the front diff is not serviceable...it's a sealed unit. So no preventative maintenance can be performed and if she goes it needs replaced.
My buddy that had the f350 gasser switched to a tradesman dodge 2500. With what he saved he was able to make it really nice and still save a bundle. Another thing, I think it rides nicer than any of the others as it's got coils springs on all 4.
Man - typing this is making me think about going to check one out myself...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What?
Sealed front axle? Drive shaft replacement because is the carrier bearing? They are pressed on, but you don't buy a shaft unless yours is wrecked. On the axle, how do you suppose all the parts and fluid got in?
No offense, but I think you may be getting lied to. Did your mechanic tell you these things?
Yes, that is what Joe Isuzu said.
Who's Joe Isuzu?
What?
Sealed front axle? Drive shaft replacement because is the carrier bearing? They are pressed on, but you don't buy a shaft unless yours is wrecked. On the axle, how do you suppose all the parts and fluid got in?
No offense, but I think you may be getting lied to. Did your mechanic tell you these things?
None taken!
On the front diff - that's what I was told and trust me i was as shocked as you. I'll do a lil more digging but that was from a reputable shop and as I was not having issues with it - just wanted to have it serviced as PM I didn't bother looking into it any further.
More and more stuff is being manufactured like this as it speeds up the process on the assembly line and cuts costs. And that's true of all brands.
On the mid carrier bearing/rear drive shaft thats straight from ford and yes while I could have potentially removed the drive shaft and limped it to a driveshaft shop in front wheel drive to attempt to have the bearing replaced, it didnt seem worth taking the chance nor did I have the time to go that route especially when it was on the rack and fixed in 2 days.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Who's Joe Isuzu?
Man, I must be getting old.
Google it. TV commercial from the 80s.
None taken!
On the front diff - that's what I was told and trust me i was as shocked as you. I'll do a lil more digging but that was from a reputable shop and as I was not having issues with it - just wanted to have it serviced as PM I didn't bother looking into it any further.
More and more stuff is being manufactured like this as it speeds up the process on the assembly line and cuts costs. And that's true of all brands.
On the mid carrier bearing/rear drive shaft thats straight from ford and yes while I could have potentially removed the drive shaft and limped it to a driveshaft shop in front wheel drive to attempt to have the bearing replaced, it didnt seem worth taking the chance nor did I have the time to go that route especially when it was on the rack and fixed in 2 days.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'll save you the trouble. Your getting lied to man. Here's a 2013 f250 parts diagram. Where on that picture looks un-serviceable?
In another thread like a week ago a guy said they had to "swap" a complete axle on his dodge ram because odd bad ball joints. Absolutely false.
I hope like hell it was just some dipshit service writer that's never held a rachet in their life. What these guys are telling you, assuming competence, is straight up fraud in my book. Not only that, it's illegal as ****. It's called racketeering.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161004/a2519df1f4116b1a99d90b2f784c59ee.jpg
I'll save you the trouble. Your getting lied to man. Here's a 2013 f250 parts diagram. Where on that picture looks un-serviceable?
In another thread like a week ago a guy said they had to "swap" a complete axle on his dodge ram because odd bad ball joints. Absolutely false.
I hope like hell it was just some dipshit service writer that's never held a rachet in their life. What these guys are telling you, assuming competence, is straight up fraud in my book. Not only that, it's illegal as ****. It's called racketeering.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161004/a2519df1f4116b1a99d90b2f784c59ee.jpg
I agree man it's complete bs. And while that's an f250, and mines an f150...the more I think about it...it's gotta be serviceable. Thanks!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree man it's complete bs. And while that's an f250, and mines an f150...the more I think about it...it's gotta be serviceable. Thanks!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
CBX beat me to it.
I have a '10 F150. The front axel is completely serviceable. The 10th gens were harder because the differential cover is built into one of the frame mounts. The 11th-13th gens are not. My last truck was a '98 F150.
CBX beat me to it.
I have a '10 F150. The front axel is completely serviceable. The 10th gens were harder because the differential cover is built into one of the frame mounts. The 11th-13th gens are not. My last truck was a '98 F150.
Maybe it was laziness or lack of knowledge on the shops part...but regardless I should have known better. But it seems like money out of their pocket so I'm shocked that they'd feed me that load of BS.
Regardless, let's get this conversation back on track!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Do the Fords and Chevy not come with 100k powertrain warranty?
I'd still not want to deal with diff/drive shaft issues under 200k, but I'm stunned at the problems I'm hearing folks deal with
The fact is, all of the big 3 had their share of different endemic problems. It became an issue of what problem would you rather deal with or, in better words, which issues would you rather risk and hope don't occur.
Like Ford 6.0 engine... cracked heads for 50k miles Alex? GM had injector issues and limp mode failures. Dodge had different issues like lift pump, ball joints, HVAC blend door fubar... These lists go on and on.
They all have their problems.
Do the Fords and Chevy not come with 100k powertrain warranty?
I'd still not want to deal with diff/drive shaft issues under 200k, but I'm stunned at the problems I'm hearing folks deal with
Nope and fords is the worst.
I agree, seems like premature bearing failure to me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
SomeOtherGuy
10-04-16, 10:17
I'll save you the trouble. Your getting lied to man. Here's a 2013 f250 parts diagram. Where on that picture looks un-serviceable?
In another thread like a week ago a guy said they had to "swap" a complete axle on his dodge ram because odd bad ball joints. Absolutely false.
I hope like hell it was just some dipshit service writer that's never held a rachet in their life. What these guys are telling you, assuming competence, is straight up fraud in my book. Not only that, it's illegal as ****. It's called racketeering.
That was me, and yeah I feel pretty badly ripped off. It's years too late to do anything about it though.
Do the Fords and Chevy not come with 100k powertrain warranty?
Chevy had a 100k powertrain warranty through 2015 and changed to a 60k for 2016. It looks like the diesel engine still has a 5/100 and it isn't clear if that's the entire powertrain if you buy a diesel, or just the engine itself.
The fact is, all of the big 3 had their share of different endemic problems. It became an issue of what problem would you rather deal with or, in better words, which issues would you rather risk and hope don't occur.
Like Ford 6.0 engine... cracked heads for 50k miles Alex? GM had injector issues and limp mode failures. Dodge had different issues like lift pump, ball joints, HVAC blend door fubar... These lists go on and on.
They all have their problems.
Oh, yeah, almost forgot that our Dodge had the HVAC blend door failure also. At least that was a cheap fix.
Part of the reason I switched to GM is all the bad dealer experiences I had with Chrysler brands. GM certainly has bad dealers, but they have so many dealers in total that you have more ability to just deal with a good dealer. Where I used to live, a town of about 400k, had one Dodge dealer and something like eight Chevy or GMC dealers who can work on a GM truck. Even if six of them are poor, you still have twice as many options for service vs. Dodge. Just an example, YMMV.
Nope and fords is the worst.
I agree, seems like premature bearing failure to me.
Any kind of diff failure under 100k on their premium truck and I'd be asking to talk to zone reps, warranty or not.
Chevy had a 100k powertrain warranty through 2015 and changed to a 60k for 2016. It looks like the diesel engine still has a 5/100 and it isn't clear if that's the entire powertrain if you buy a diesel, or just the engine itself.
Drivetrain should be non-mtc related hard parts engine, tranny/transfer case, steering gear, axles including diffs and hubs.
Won't cover bushings, power steering pumps, that could be considered wear items. (though I'd probably push a power steering pump that failed under 100k)
5/100 is also less useful, though hard users it would be OK. I think mine was 10/100 on my ram. I know it had a 10/100 on rust perforation.
Oh, yeah, almost forgot that our Dodge had the HVAC blend door failure also. At least that was a cheap fix.
Mine did have that, though I did not fix it yet. What was your cheap fix?
Part of the reason I switched to GM is all the bad dealer experiences I had with Chrysler brands. GM certainly has bad dealers, but they have so many dealers in total that you have more ability to just deal with a good dealer. Where I used to live, a town of about 400k, had one Dodge dealer and something like eight Chevy or GMC dealers who can work on a GM truck. Even if six of them are poor, you still have twice as many options for service vs. Dodge.
All our local dealers are owned by the same groups for the most part. chevvy/ford/dodge/nissan, does not matter. The rot knows no brand boundaries.
There was a bad local Dodge dealer that went out of business. The one next door has been pretty good. But I've not used them for much other than warranty and routine service on our sprinter. But I now use MB for sprinter service as they are cheaper and they give me a MB loaner car.
The trick is to look for 5 star on the Chrysler dealers. Hard to earn, hard to keep. Essentially, a bad survey can endanger 5 star status.
Not saying you can't get screwed at a 5 star dealer, just that I've found them to be at least as good as Ford/Chevy dealers. We probably have a 2 or 3 to 1 ration of Chevvy/Ford to Dodge. So not as much of a problem to find one.
I had a Ford dealer Svc Mgr try to screw me on an Explorer radius arm bushing that was a tech bulletin, etc. I knew it should be covered under the tech bulletin and also under the drivetrain warranty. Kept saying "Nope, sorry, computer sez it's not covered". I finally said "let me go to my car, I have a copy of the warranty and I know it's covered". Service mgr sez "Hey, the computer now shows it's covered, that's weird".
Yeah, right.
SomeOtherGuy
10-04-16, 11:20
Mine did have that, though I did not fix it yet. What was your cheap fix?
As I remember (we sold the truck 2 years ago), the mechanic said he could replace the part with a functional new one for $x, or he could break off the door so we would have only outside air (no recirc option) without needing to replace any parts, and that was like $40 or something. As a farm truck and living in a rural area, we went with cheap option. It's not a perfect fix but I wasn't going to spend hundreds on a non-critical part for a truck I was then planning to trade within 1-2 years (and did).
All our local dealers are owned by the same groups for the most part. chevvy/ford/dodge/nissan, does not matter. The rot knows no brand boundaries.
I think this is somewhat local. In lower Michigan all the US brand dealers were ancient and most of the foreign brands were relatively newer, and a lot of the US brands were one-off or tiny chains, not the massive dealer groups you see elsewhere. Also, for some reason lower Michigan Toyota dealers tend to be the slimiest of the scum, so while I think Toyota makes a good car I never bought one due to the dealers. GM dealers were and are so common that you can find a good one without going very far. Ford and Dodge were more variable.
I have a cousin in law who's a professional mechanic and started at a Ford dealer. What I heard about their warranty practices is awful, and I've seen web reports of the same elsewhere. He has since landed a good position at an ambulance service, where they care about getting the work done correctly and are willing to pay (in hours) for it to be done right. Win/win for him.
I'm not singling out any brand - I agree that all brands have some problems and you basically gamble with the risks you're willing to accept. I chose GM most recently due to the number of dealers and the relative ease of identifying problems because they make so many vehicles. I could make a similar argument for Ford if I wanted to. With Dodge/Chrysler you have a moving target given the recent corporate history, and I have no idea if their 2016 products are great, awful, or average.
It's great to see Nissan moving into the HD truck market. If Toyota ever gets into it as well, the big-3 brands are really going to have to shape up.
Do the Fords and Chevy not come with 100k powertrain warranty?
I'd still not want to deal with diff/drive shaft issues under 200k, but I'm stunned at the problems I'm hearing folks deal with
Drive shaft issues aren't a big deal. Just when it does go bad replace with the best parts you can buy.
I'm a big fan of the high end spicer billet universal joints. Cures all longevity issues.
You can rebuild a rear drive shaft, all new parts, best of everything, and spin balanced at a driveline shop for 300-400 depending on the setup. It's very worth it. Most of the OEM wear items are sub par at best. If you want to fore go the spin balanced that's ok of it's not wrecked. In the scheme of things, $400 is cheap for quality.
The makers are there to make money. They can't make anything unless they sell you something. There's very few instances the OE exceeds what you can buy else where in parts.
On the differentials and other transmission parts, run good name brand oil that meets spec. There's a lot of voodoo garbage products out there. Almost every time I've seem issues, it's because their running some off brand that makes big claims that don't deliver anything but feel good.
You guys world be amazed at the technology chevron puts into their products. They even have engineers you can talk to. I've attended several of their classes. Top notch all the way. They've invented much of the technology in the lubricants and coolants.
But people get drawn to fancy commercials, bright colored bottles, and see through displays at county fairs and expos.
As I remember (we sold the truck 2 years ago), the mechanic said he could replace the part with a functional new one for $x, or he could break off the door so we would have only outside air (no recirc option) without needing to replace any parts, and that was like $40 or something. As a farm truck and living in a rural area, we went with cheap option. It's not a perfect fix but I wasn't going to spend hundreds on a non-critical part for a truck I was then planning to trade within 1-2 years (and did).
That's where I'm at. I think mine just effects defrost. Which I will probably address at some point as we plan to keep it.
I'm not singling out any brand - I agree that all brands have some problems and you basically gamble with the risks you're willing to accept. I chose GM most recently due to the number of dealers and the relative ease of identifying problems because they make so many vehicles. I could make a similar argument for Ford if I wanted to. With Dodge/Chrysler you have a moving target given the recent corporate history, and I have no idea if their 2016 products are great, awful, or average.
I'm completely with you on this. I hope Dodge/Cummins has not ruined the Ram diesels, but nothing would surprise me. Chasing the stupid HP over utility game makes me wonder.
It's great to see Nissan moving into the HD truck market. If Toyota ever gets into it as well, the big-3 brands are really going to have to shape up.
I've had very good luck with two Nissan cars lately, as has friends.
The Titan / Cummins is not worth me giving up the ram, cost/benefit not there. But if I ever have to, I may go that way even though it's lower capacity. I'm not pushing the limits of the Cummins Ram. But they sure are expensive!
Drive shaft issues aren't a big deal. Just when it does go bad replace with the best parts you can buy.
Don't disagree. But a quality drive shaft & U joints that fails in under 100k has design or quality problems one, they should last longer than that.
On the differentials and other transmission parts, run good name brand oil that meets spec. There's a lot of voodoo garbage products out there. Almost every time I've seem issues, it's because their running some off brand that makes big claims that don't deliver anything but feel good.
You guys world be amazed at the technology chevron puts into their products. They even have engineers you can talk to. I've attended several of their classes. Top notch all the way. They've invented much of the technology in the lubricants and coolants.
I'm a Delo fan in general. I specifically run some of their industrial products in my pinzgauer due to some of the additives designed for straight cut gears, etc.
The Ram AAM axles came with synthetic lube. They specify what should go in. Cummins for the 3G rams specifically states to not use aftermarket oil additives, just quality oil of a particular spec. (and recommended a dino oil that they use for their factory fills.)
Somehow Rotella got the name for diesel oil, and I have used it. I don't think it's bad, but certainly does not justify a premium. But I think some of that was because Sams/Costco carried it for years before shifting to Delo 400. I still largely use Delo or Castrol dino diesel oil. I probably have enough on hand for 10 years of my usage, bought it when it was $7-8 / gallon as they were changing the specification and the old flavor was better on flat tappet vehicles. (I still had some then)
Don't disagree. But a quality drive shaft & U joints that fails in under 100k has design or quality problems one, they should last longer than that.
I'm a Delo fan in general. I specifically run some of their industrial products in my pinzgauer due to some of the additives designed for straight cut gears, etc.
The Ram AAM axles came with synthetic lube. They specify what should go in. Cummins for the 3G rams specifically states to not use aftermarket oil additives, just quality oil of a particular spec. (and recommended a dino oil that they use for their factory fills.)
Somehow Rotella got the name for diesel oil, and I have used it. I don't think it's bad, but certainly does not justify a premium. But I think some of that was because Sams/Costco carried it for years before shifting to Delo 400. I still largely use Delo or Castrol dino diesel oil. I probably have enough on hand for 10 years of my usage, bought it when it was $7-8 / gallon as they were changing the specification and the old flavor was better on flat tappet vehicles. (I still had some then)
Valvoline makes a really good synthetic gl5 lube for the AAM dodge axles. Seems like you can buy it just about anywhere.
Just to throw it out there when talking about synthetic, almost all are still "dino" oils. There are a few food grade applications out there in factories today use a non petroleum oil. (Some gun oils are, but we're not touching that one with a ten foot pole) But over all, most of the synthetics are still dino oils. Some come from the same base stocks even.
Synthetics is a misleading description. All that's going on is the molecules are all basically the same size. The oil is made buy a different chemical process, rather than distillation.
Just because it's synthetic, doesn't mean it's made from plants or other sources.
I miss the days of $6 Delo....
Whiskey_Bravo
10-04-16, 13:29
Valvoline makes a really good synthetic gl5 lube for the AAM dodge axles. Seems like you can buy it just about anywhere.
Just to throw it out there when talking about synthetic, almost all are still "dino" oils. There are a few food grade applications out there in factories today use a non petroleum oil. (Some gun oils/Crisco are, but we're not touching that one with a ten foot pole) But over all, most of the synthetics are still dino oils. Some come from the same base stocks even.
Synthetics is a misleading description. All that's going on is the molecules are all basically the same size. The oil is made buy a different chemical process, rather than distillation.
Just because it's synthetic, doesn't mean it's made from plants or other sources.
I miss the days of $6 Delo....
There, I fixed that for you. :dirol:
Coal Dragger
10-04-16, 13:48
Maybe it was laziness or lack of knowledge on the shops part...but regardless I should have known better. But it seems like money out of their pocket so I'm shocked that they'd feed me that load of BS.
Regardless, let's get this conversation back on track!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If it was a warranty repair or a good will repair from Ford their protocol is usually to replace the entire assembly. Often times they want the defective assembly back for study.
For example my 2007 Tundra has a TSB on the front axle sometimes making excessive noise. Although Toyota could find no durability issues, they still had dealers replace the entire front axles instead of tearing them down to install the improved bearing.
Both of my F150's never had any major issues at all. Hell my '98 had 110k on it on the original clutch. If I changed anything it was aftermarket bolt-on's for improvement. Everything else was routine maintenance. As for any lubricants/fluids I tend to stick with Amsoil (based off reading various independent studies). Anyone will be gtg though if they stick with the recommended spec though. Reminds me, I need to put money aside to upgrade my diff covers & tranny pan to some high-cap Mag-Hytec ones. My truck eats my money like firearms and gear do. Damn you wants!
There, I fixed that for you. :dirol:
Ah, the memories....
I went on USAA car buying a priced out a Titan XD with the Cummins V8, 4x4, crew cab, convenience package with navigation and heated seats, utility package (spray in bed liner, moveable tie downs, under seat storage, etc), SV trim grade (mid level)..... 42k according to USAA.
Edit: Base model S with the Cummins, 4x4, crew cab, with convenience and utility package... 37k according to USAA
ramairthree
10-05-16, 23:31
This has been a pretty interesting read.
I have not bought a truck for a couple of years.
It used to be easy,
Serious towing equals diesel.
But the cost of diesel, maintenance, new engine requirements, etc. kind of only makes the case for diesel for frequent, very serious towing.
A lot of people have driven small and the standard half ton pickups.
Not as many people are familiar with the handling, mpg, costs, etc. of going to a 3/4 ton.
I have seen the same thing everywhere I live for decades.
Guys towing way too much with too little truck that are probably not safe to be on the road on one hand,
And guys with full on dually diesel towing their little fishing boat or lawn care business trailer.
It seems like too little or too much truck is more common than hitting the sweet spot.
We needed a pick up.
For regular pick up stuff,
And for towing a three horse with tack room goose neck trailer,
An occasional muscle car, tractor to service, etc.
Weight wise,
We could have gotten by with a 1/2 ton with standard gas engine.
For stability, braking, margin, etc. we decided to go with a 3/4 ton.
In 4x4 as you end up in a lot of muddy off road paddocks, pastures, dirt trails, fields, etc.
For some lines, such as the RAM,
It is not very expensive to upgrade to the 6.4 Hemi,
But going to diesel is about 7k more than that.
If you are not doing long, frequent, mountain grade towing at hardcore weights,
Add in maintenance costs for current diesel,
Etc.
The Titan XD diesel, if truly a "5/8 ton" niche truck,
If I did it correctly would price about about the same as a 6.4 gas 2500, less than a diesel.
I am also used to buying vehicles in this category at 50% more off sticker than other vehicles I purchase.
A split the difference niche between SD and HD would have been a good option for buyers like me.
More towing margin than a half ton, maybe not huge more weight numbers on paper but some, but more braking, suspension, etc.
A HD truck is a pain in the ass the 90% of the time someone like me is not towing with it but not dangerous.
A SD truck is a pain in the ass the 10% of the time you are towing stuff beyond usual homeowner stuff with and can be dangerous.
I may be wrong, but this may be a niche suitable for a lot of people like me.
Again, I mean a true 5/8 ton, suitably powered with appropriate suspension and braking.
I am not familiar enough with the new XD to know if it is a hyped up 1/2 ton Or actually bridging the gap.
But "enhanced SD trucks" or Xtra Duty or 5/8 ton whatever they end up being called
I may be wrong,
I think the XD does actually bridge the gap. Its closer in size to a half ton, yet has the frame more of a heavy duty truck.
My buddy that does automotive destructive testing worked with the XD well before it came to the market. He said it's basically a 3/4 ton frame, drivetrain, and suspension in a 1/2 ton body.
Ive also seen reviewers discuss it vs the high tow rated 1/2 tons. They said that while certain F150s and Silverados are rated to tow similar numbers, 12k pounds... the XD will feel a lot better towing the higher numbers due to the heavy duty frame and suspension.
I do think that they will sell pretty well.
The Titan XD, at least on paper, appears to be nearly identical in power, performance, load and towing of a 2003 Dodge 2500 with Cummins H.O. and manual transmission.
Weight: Titan about 7500; Dodge about 7600 (for crew cab 4x4)
Power: Titan 310hp 555tq; 2003 Dodge HO engine 305hp 555tq
Towing: Titan just a little under 12k; Dodge, right at 12k.
People that I know who have test driven state that it rides more like a 1/2 ton.
I have an Audi A8 and the features that can be had in this truck rival for luxury.
I think it's time for a 5/8 ton type truck so to speak. It just makes alot of sense.
Oddly enough, most of the people I know with HD trucks don't really like driving them. They just like the power. Everyone bitches about the size. Especially in parking garages.
I can't relate........ I used to park a crew cab long bed all the time.....lol....... 8 point turns for the win.
Ive also seen reviewers discuss it vs the high tow rated 1/2 tons. They said that while certain F150s and Silverados are rated to tow similar numbers, 12k pounds... the XD will feel a lot better towing the higher numbers due to the heavy duty frame and suspension.
The people quoting "comparable" tow capacities in the gassers just don't get it. Those capacities are assuming you are going to be driving the vehicle at it's torque peak. Huge differences in when that torque peak occurs:
Ford 5.0l Ti VCT (F-150)- 3850 rpm
Cummins Titan- 1600 rpm, and relatively flat up to 4200 rpm
Do this test sometime... put your car/truck in D2 or something other than highest gear. Accelerate to highway speeds so the RPM is 3500-4000. Then imagine your engine working at full load at that speed. And up/down shifting.
Hard on the engine, hard on the tranny.
The Cummins can loaf at half the rpm, delivering it's peak torque. And manage almost 2x speed variation without having to up/down shift.
To a certain extent, the Cummins has this advantage over the Duramax & Ford diesels. But I think they are smoothing out their torque curves.
If you occasionally pull a bass boat or camper, no big deal. Pull something bigger often, or over long distances? Huge qualitative difference.
I pulled a 3 horse trailer with Chevy 5.7l gassers. You can do it, but it's working hard. Third gen Cummins Ram, almost does not know it's there. Smoother accell/decel, less shifting, less rpm. And that's at 1000'. At altitude the differences magnify.
It's worth a look at what Cummins has done for the Titan engine: (https://cumminsengines.com/nissan-titan) https://cumminsengines.com/nissan-titan
The people quoting "comparable" tow capacities in the gassers just don't get it. Those capacities are assuming you are going to be driving the vehicle at it's torque peak. Huge differences in when that torque peak occurs:
Ford 5.0l Ti VCT (F-150)- 3850 rpm
Cummins Titan- 1800 rpm, and relatively flat up to 4200 rpm
[/URL]
Peak torque on the Cummins is actually 1600 rpm.
Peak torque on the Cummins is actually 1600 rpm.
You are right, I corrected the post
Looks like the current Duramax & Ford diesels are also 1600 rpm torque peaks.
My Cummins 5.9l is 1400, the current 6.7 1500-1700 depending on transmission.
So the current diesels have converged.
You are right, I corrected the post
Looks like the current Duramax & Ford diesels are also 1600 rpm torque peaks.
My Cummins 5.9l is 1400, the current 6.7 1500-1700 depending on transmission.
So the current diesels have converged.
The 6.7 is slightly more undersquare in bore/stroke ratio compared to the 6.7 (0.863 vs 0.85). That probably accounts for a lot of the shift in peak torque. That and EGR tuning. In general, up to a point all other things being equal, the longer the stroke is the more grunt you've got down low....
For comparison the 6.7 powerstroke is like 0.918 and the duramax is slightly oversquare at 1.04. Those will behave a lot differently just because they're V8s though...
The 6.7 is slightly more undersquare in bore/stroke ratio compared to the 6.7 (0.863 vs 0.85). That probably accounts for a lot of the shift in peak torque. That and EGR tuning. In general, up to a point all other things being equal, the longer the stroke is the more grunt you've got down low....
For comparison the 6.7 powerstroke is like 0.918 and the duramax is slightly oversquare at 1.04. Those will behave a lot differently just because they're V8s though...
Yep, The V-8's can sometimes have wider powerbands due to that aspect. That was an old criticism of the 5.9l Cummins, it was not a revver. The 5.0l Cummins in the Titan has a very wide torque curve, which bodes very well for usability.
But most of the diesels are very close now on torque vs rpm. Here's the deal... Most trucks with reasonable gears & tires run 1500-2000 rpm at 55-70 mph. Heavy duty or half ton F-150's. That's right in the sweet spot for the diesels (no accident). And half the rpm of the torque peak for most gassers. Which means they are constantly hunting (up/down shift) or just have to lock into a lower gear and let it scream at double the rpm they'd normally drive at.
Qualitatively it's a huge difference even if the towing specs look comparable on paper. And absolutely impacts drivability, economy, and longevity/reliability
I knew I was going to run slightly larger tires, so I went with the 4.10 rear axle instead of the standard 3.73. With the tires I run, I'm close to the same highway RPM's as stock with the 3.73. And square in the Cummins torque sweet spot 55-70.
The ecoboost is interesting as it shifts it's torque peak down some. Still not to the diesel range, but much more usable. Which is why in many cases it can out-tow the traditional gas V-8's.
The eco-boost having the advantage of forced induction rather than natural aspiration.
I knew I was going to run slightly larger tires, so I went with the 4.10 rear axle instead of the standard 3.73. With the tires I run, I'm close to the same highway RPM's as stock with the 3.73. And square in the Cummins torque sweet spot 55-70.
Can't speak for any but mine, but I've noticed I get 1-2 more mpg doing 80 vs 70. But I wouldn't speed or nuthin :rolleyes:
The ecoboost is interesting as it shifts it's torque peak down some. Still not to the diesel range, but much more usable. Which is why in many cases it can out-tow the traditional gas V-8's.
Yeah, turbo engines are interesting beasts. You look at the torque curve for the 3.5L ecoboost and it looks really similar to a diesel, other than as you noted, the fact the torque comes in a bit higher.
If I was king of the car companies, the entry level on 3/4 ton trucks would be small turbo V8s at a lower price point than now and jack up the price of the diesels a little more. Sell way more volume on the bottom and get more margin at the top from the people who really need it.
If I was king of the car companies, the entry level on 3/4 ton trucks would be small turbo V8s at a lower price point than now and jack up the price of the diesels a little more. Sell way more volume on the bottom and get more margin at the top from the people who really need it.
That's pretty much what they have done. The incremental cost for diesel models is much higher as a percentage than it used to be.
So you are a truck mfg... one engine that you can use in car & truck platforms, is cheaper, and has a 150-200k mile service life. And more dealer level mtc required 100-200k (Tundra's with timing belt changes, etc).
Or an engine that can only be used in trucks, and has easily double the service life. And really requires no mtc other than fluids & filters, etc. (OK, for the Cummins, a valve adjustment at 150k)
Which do you push? Do mfg's really want to promote a truck with double the average powertrain service life?
I think they keep diesels just to be able to sell into the heavy duty market. Meanwhile, pushing the cheaper, shorter lived half ton's as "just as good". (but they are not)
I'm intrigued by the Ram half ton diesel, but for the cost and reliability I'd probably bite for the Titan instead. VM Motari makes good diesels. But they have fared badly under US emissions. (Jeep Liberty Diesel- Loved the functionality, hated the unreliability caused by the US Emissions treatments)
ramairthree
10-06-16, 11:05
Yeah, maybe in 90s Chevy and Ford looked at the concept to some degree with, to be honest, I don't remember the names of the models.
I think the engine, tranny, and weight saving components just were not there yet.
You are dead on about paper tow weights vs in practice.
A half ton gas truck towing 10k vs a 3/4 stronger gas truck is very noticeable.
Let alone diesel.
I don't think Nissan has totally nailed it.
They may be the early bird that showed up not quite optimized for catching the worm.
They are on the right track.
Average curb weight of a serious half ton is what, 6+ K or so,
And serious 3/4 7.5 or so I think.
There will always be fools towing too much with too little truck because they don't know any better, think they know better, or simply can't afford it.
There will always bee fools getting too much truck because they want it and don't need it. But I get too much car and some other stuff, it's not unsafe, and it's sort of a free country.
A mid grade diesel, in a truck heavier than a 1/2 but still handles a lot like one,
With braking and foundation in the 3/4 direction,
Priced at a mid point,
Well,
I wish I had had that option a couple of years ago.
I wish even more that diesel was like it used to be.
A better buy over the truck life.
Fuel, maintenance, initial costs, etc. are all up
As efficiency and ease are all down.
ramairthree
10-06-16, 11:15
Yeah,
Costs of diesel did not used to be this way.
Take the typical base gas engine in a 3/4 entry price.
Bigger gas engine upgrade is about $1000.
Diesel more like $7000.
I'm not in the market. I am very happy with what I have.
I think Nissan has come close to nailing it... except it's still a ... Nissan. I bet if Toyota had built the exact same truck, people would be whooping and hollering that they nailed it.
Let's take a look at what Nissan did vs what people (like us here) actually ask for.
1. Proven engine... this is a new v-8 for Cummins to be sure. But I am friends with an engineer at Cummins that helped develop this engine. I trust what he tells me... the proving for this engine was thorough. A lot more than Ford did.
2. Proven transmission. That Aisin is the equal of the Allison. Enough said?
3. Proven axles. The AAM axles used has been proven years over in Dodge and Chevy. The axles on my truck have 175k... Multiple 1/4 mile launches at 750, 900 and 1150 hp. They look great. I don't think you can ask for more.
4. A 3/4 ton that doesn't ride like one... check.
5. Lots of features and comfort. One can get a base model all the way to a Cadillac. Spec away.
We just don't know what the ancillaries and wear items are going to be like. But the drive train I have absolute confidence in.
Yeah,
Costs of diesel did not used to be this way.
Take the typical base gas engine in a 3/4 entry price.
Bigger gas engine upgrade is about $1000.
Diesel more like $7000.
Duramax was 8k from pretty much the beginning. At first on paper I remember it breaking down like the engine was 7,000 and the transmission was 1100.
In those early days when the trucks were cheaper that was a good % of the total cost. Incidentally I believe this is why the cost of the Duramax is what killed the use of BBCs in modern trucks. The "8.1l Vortec" didn't make peak torque as low as the Duramax but didn't need to since it built RPMs much faster. Dealers naturally pushed the Duramax as the go-to HD engine choice because of the huge upcharge but some savvy buyers knew the 8.1 worked just as hard (though was at a disadvantage in economy) for a lot less and I'm 100% sure that besides dealers pushing the Duramax more to make more that they also lobbied to eliminate the big block as an option.
Every now and then I get the urge to find an '03 or other Chevy/GMC equipped with the 496 Cubic inch Vortec 8100 but there aren't many out there anymore.
. The "8.1l Vortec" didn't make peak torque as low as the Duramax but didn't need to since it built RPMs much faster. Dealers naturally pushed the Duramax as the go-to HD engine choice because of the huge upcharge but some savvy buyers knew the 8.1 worked just as hard (though was at a disadvantage in economy) for a lot less and I'm 100% sure that besides dealers pushing the Duramax more to make more that they also lobbied to eliminate the big block as an option.
You know, 50% less torque at twice the RPMs and one half to one third the fuel mileage is not "worked just as hard". That is more like "had to work twice as hard to do the same job"
You know, 50% less torque at twice the RPMs and one half to one third the fuel mileage is not "worked just as hard". That is more like "had to work twice as hard to do the same job"
I guess I should have said "did the work just as well".
In practical use the Duramax did have a fuel economy advantage but that was it. Back when both were in option in our local car/truck meets both sides would argue the case vehemently and when two guys from opposing sides finally hooked 'em up the Vortec pulled the Duramax. Back then I think there was only a 40 peak torque advantage with the Duramax, not double.
I guess I should have said "did the work just as well".
In practical use the Duramax did have a fuel economy advantage but that was it. Back when both were in option in our local car/truck meets both sides would argue the case vehemently and when two guys from opposing sides finally hooked 'em up the Vortec pulled the Duramax. Back then I think there was only a 40 peak torque advantage with the Duramax, not double.
Those pulls are highly bias to the driver. A lot people will hit the gas right away instead of building the torque up by steadily pressing the gas. Some will also have their 4x4 engaged while the other does not.
I guess I should have said "did the work just as well".
In practical use the Duramax did have a fuel economy advantage but that was it. Back when both were in option in our local car/truck meets both sides would argue the case vehemently and when two guys from opposing sides finally hooked 'em up the Vortec pulled the Duramax. Back then I think there was only a 40 peak torque advantage with the Duramax, not double.
I have no idea what year you are comparing, but waaay back in 2008, a duramax lmm engine was good for 365 hp and 660 torque. The 8.1, IIRC, was more like 325 and 420. 50% more torque, not double.
Google is a key stroke away but I am lazy... I know the diesel power figures are at 3200 rpm for HP and 1600 for torque. The gas is likely around 5000 for HP and 3500 for torque.
This is a little thread drift, but you know folks (the ones that would really want gas to be "as good as diesel"), there is a reason big rigs are all diesel. And most of them are straight sixes.
Although I love me a lot of old fashioned Marmon V-12.
Don't know too many gas engines in ships either.
I have no idea what year you are comparing, but waaay back in 2008, a duramax lmm engine was good for 365 hp and 660 torque. The 8.1, IIRC, was more like 325 and 420. 50% more torque, not double.
Google is a key stroke away but I am lazy... I know the diesel power figures are at 3200 rpm for HP and 1600 for torque. The gas is likely around 5000 for HP and 3500 for torque.
I'm talking about '04. It was 330/460 vs 310/520 or somewhere thereabouts.
Just checked google. I was pretty close.
This is a little thread drift, but you know folks (the ones that would really want gas to be "as good as diesel"), there is a reason big rigs are all diesel. And most of them are straight sixes.
Although I love me a lot of old fashioned Marmon V-12.
Don't know too many gas engines in ships either.
Train engines are nuts too. Each cylinder has the displacement of an entire Semi's engine. Massive, 2 stroke, turbocharged diesels.
Diesels ARE the ultimate working engine. I'm just reminiscing about a window in time.
Back when both were in option in our local car/truck meets both sides would argue the case vehemently and when two guys from opposing sides finally hooked 'em up the Vortec pulled the Duramax.
To me these kinds of tests are academic at best, and silly inaccurate at worst-
- It's not a real world test of work... The gasser can rev to 4k rpm during the pulloff, while you'd never drive or tow at that RPM. Nor would it last if you did
- Traction will dominate over HP/Torque. There is a pretty good video of a girl driving a BMW Xwhatever diesel AWD up to a group of shitkickers with coal burners and giant stack duallies. They joke, next then they are hooked up for a tow off. She (the BMW) slowly beats the coal smoke belching BOMB'd 1 ton. Traction made the difference. The first one to break loose looses.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-06-16, 16:09
To me these kinds of tests are academic at best, and silly inaccurate at worst-
- It's not a real world test of work... The gasser can rev to 4k rpm during the pulloff, while you'd never drive or tow at that RPM. Nor would it last if you did
- Traction will dominate over HP/Torque. There is a pretty good video of a girl driving a BMW Xwhatever diesel AWD up to a group of shitkickers with coal burners and giant stack duallies. They joke, next then they are hooked up for a tow off. She (the BMW) slowly beats the coal smoke belching BOMB'd 1 ton. Traction made the difference. The first one to break loose looses.
That's why if you are going to get into a pull off you should probably throw it into 4wheel.
That's why if you are going to get into a pull off you should probably throw it into 4wheel.
So the interesting thing is traction control on an AWD can beat traditional 4wd in this type of situation, especially of the 4wd is does not have locking diffs.
Solid axles + high torque loads= One wheel lifting enough to break traction. And one of the reasons independent suspension rules in the desert.
Four wheels pulling equally (AWD plus traction) can beat 2 pulling (unlocked 4wd)
Like pinz has mentioned, many factors come into play on pulls.
The tires, what gear they put it into (low or not), 2wd/4wd/awd, whether the driver slams on the gas or eases on it to build torque and get traction, timing, the mods on each vehicle, etc.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-07-16, 08:45
So the interesting thing is traction control on an AWD can beat traditional 4wd in this type of situation, especially of the 4wd is does not have locking diffs.
Solid axles + high torque loads= One wheel lifting enough to break traction. And one of the reasons independent suspension rules in the desert.
Four wheels pulling equally (AWD plus traction) can beat 2 pulling (unlocked 4wd)
Very true, lockers would make all the difference.
Found the video. it was a VW Toureg:
https://youtu.be/k62gW3Se5e0
Found the video. it was a VW Toureg:
https://youtu.be/k62gW3Se5e0
I saw a video similar to that before. Dude went too quick on the gas and doesn't appear to have had 4wd engaged. These modern TC systems are no joke though. The advancetrac in my truck is great to have on the road, especially in the snow. Just not great for off-road. I need to update my tunes as they built into them a TC permanent off whereas stock it only keeps it off until wheel speeds hits 35mph then reactivates.
Pickups just have horrible weight distribution as well. Load that bed up with 1000 lbs, and it'd likely be a different story.
Did an AMG GL Mercedes drive event one time when traction control was a new thing. Steep (40-45 degrees) hills up & down, street tires, etc. Was amazed at how well it did. Does not help in all situations, but for certain slippery conditions it beats traditional 4wds as it is smoother about controlling wheel spin.
Pickups just have horrible weight distribution as well. Load that bed up with 1000 lbs, and it'd likely be a different story.
Did an AMG GL Mercedes drive event one time when traction control was a new thing. Steep (40-45 degrees) hills up & down, street tires, etc. Was amazed at how well it did. Does not help in all situations, but for certain slippery conditions it beats traditional 4wds as it is smoother about controlling wheel spin.
Weight in the bed makes a huge difference, truth there for sure.
TC is great at road speeds where reaction time is extremely limited.
my truck rides way different since I got the 5th wheel hitch installed. smoother with less rear bounce
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
After I put on sulastic shackles and bilstiens my ride became almost plush. But then adding drag bars and air bags and it all evened out. Ride with the fiver attached is great.
Found the video. it was a VW Toureg:
https://youtu.be/k62gW3Se5e0
I will see your Vdub, and raise you one dodge come apart.
Be advised, some salty language.
https://youtu.be/vpenUvtiiUQ
I used to do tractor pulls. Traction is the name of the game. All else is secondary.
I will see your Vdub, and raise you one dodge come apart.
Be advised, some salty language.
https://youtu.be/vpenUvtiiUQ
I used to do tractor pulls. Traction is the name of the game. All else is secondary.
I hope that hilljank bought that guy new tires. Flat spots all around for sure. What a moron.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEo2mnUFab8
Whiskey_Bravo
10-07-16, 14:06
genius
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.