View Full Version : PSA CHF barrel uppers? How good? Or ....?
I am looking for a 20" (would consider an 18" too) rifle gas chrome lined barreled upper and the .700x.700 mil muzzle step is required. My understanding is that the 20" A2 PSA uppers use FN military style barrels (same steel, testing, chrome lining, etc. but, different work 'cells') though they are really 20 1/4" long. The FN commercial consumer uppers do not appear to be the same but, are probably pretty good too.
Is the PSA CHF upper (classic A2 style, no rails, etc.) a solid upper receiver? Is it reliable and reasonably accurate? A BCM upper would probably be a better choice but, it is a lot more expensive and wait times can be very long. Daniel Defense has a nice 18" upper with their S2W barrel but, I don't need nor want the added expense and weight (no lights, lasers, etc.) of a railed forearm. What am I giving up in a PSA CHF upper that isn't apparent on the 'outside'?
TIA,
Sid
A BCM will run you more, but you'll almost definitely get it faster if it's in stock. BCM shipping is stupid fast. Also, not all PSA barrels are the same. The CHF (by FN) is reportedly pretty good, the premium is decent. They start losing quality after that. I think the only thing you're really giving up is probably a more efficient gas port, fit and finish, and warranty/piece of mind. Their sales lately have been extremely tempting for me too. Just make sure you get the premium BCG.
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wildcard600
10-02-16, 01:13
I would get the BCM or look at a Sionics.
If you end up with a PSA get the upper without BCG and put a BCM or other known quality bolt and carrier in there. I wouldn't run a PSA BCG if it was free.
I got a 6.8SPC from them super cheap without a BCG as I have my doubts about many 6.8SPC BCG's in the marketplace. Minus BCG, the whole thing cost me less than a barrel and has been super accurate and reliable so far though, I only use it for feral hogs and it smacks them well.
I'm wanting a more traditional A2 styled upper so, while I don't need a super accurate upper with all the cool do-dads I was curious about the PSA option based on my limited past experience. Cosmetic details are low on my list outside of major things as this is a shooter and not a show piece. Functional qualities are what count for this upper.
HighDesert
10-02-16, 10:13
Just because you have access to gourmet ingredients does not mean you're a gourmet chef...
I would save a bit more and get the BCM (or DD or Sionics).
I have a BCM 20" and love it.
HighDesert
10-02-16, 10:25
To add to the above - I did buy one of their nitride 10.5 complete uppers w premium bcg for stupid cheap to use as a truck/beater gun. Upper came damaged with scratches and dents on the back of the upper receiver where the ch mates up. It was obviously dropped on that corner. Took 2 weeks to get cs to respond to calls and emails, but they credited me $30. This was not a blem. It fires fine and is accurate enough, but the action is so amazingly gritty and tight compared to my other ARs. It's not smooth to charge and takes more force than it should. Perhaps it will smooth out over time, but you really get what you pay for with psa. With regards to this upper, it will be shot little and beat on, so I am ok with for the 180 I paid after the credit.
556BlackRifle
10-02-16, 10:28
There's probably a hundred PSA threads here on m4carbien.net if you search. As stated above, save a little more and buy a Colt, BCM, Sionics and you'll be glad you did.
https://www.google.com/search?q=m4carbine.net+Glock+43&oq=m4carbine.net+Glock+43&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59.14824j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=PSA+site:www.m4carbine.net
There's probably a hundred PSA threads here on m4carbien.net if you search. As stated above, save a little more and buy a Colt, BCM, Sionics and you'll be glad you did.
https://www.google.com/search?q=m4carbine.net+Glock+43&oq=m4carbine.net+Glock+43&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59.14824j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=PSA+site:www.m4carbine.net
Yes, I have read some but not all, of the ~50 page PSA post on page one of this forum. Things were generally favorable but, I didn't see any CHF posts either.
Is it realistic for you to save up the difference for a BCM in the next month? Prices and availability are going to become issues very soon I think. Part of the reason PSA has been tempting me.
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http://youtu.be/e9UNyWgrWbU
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I am thrilled to have saved the money I have by buying PSA for carbines #6 -11. Don't listen to that " but you only save $200" bullshit. I have bought complete lowers for $129 & $139. Premium uppers for $249 /$279 - with Free Shipping, no less. Zero problems of any kind and my first must have 4000 rds on it with one carbine class. I think many will look back with pride at having been early adopters of PSA. Canted FSBs are old news or extremely rare. Consider their volume and that few post about their solid rifle, and even fewer read about it because of search terms.
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I have bought a lot of PSA over the years. I think their quality has gone down over the years. That being said, they always have taken care of the issues but they are slow at it. Will I buy from them again? If I see the right deal. But when bcm is throwing free bcg and ch I usually just stick with them because that is a great deal
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I have bought a lot of PSA over the years. I think their quality has gone down over the years. That being said, they always have taken care of the issues but they are slow at it. Will I buy from them again? If I see the right deal. But when bcm is throwing free bcg and ch I usually just stick with them because that is a great deal
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DOWN over the years? That's...surprising, everyone else seems to feel the opposite is true due to increased staff. It's been a long time since BCM offered free BCGs with upper purchase. I bought 2 that way and spend a lot of time on their site butt that's been a while.
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Mars attacks...
10-02-16, 14:11
I've got a 16" PSA/FN midlength A2 profile. It's not the "Best" barrel it could be, but I have no problem ringing head and neckshots on steel at 300 yards with LC M193.
I've pumped several thousand rounds through it since I put the rifle together. For a dependable beater it gets results.
I have bought 2 of their midlength uppers recently, one Stainless and one Melonite. Both were in perfect condition upon receipt. Shipping times are also quick, about a week for both. Definitely better than before.
Their CHF Premium line is reportedly made by FN so you should be good there. Their Freedom line has been decent for the value. The make excellent budget rifles.
DOWN over the years? That's...surprising, everyone else seems to feel the opposite is true due to increased staff. It's been a long time since BCM offered free BCGs with upper purchase. I bought 2 that way and spend a lot of time on their site butt that's been a while.
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I have not bought much from them in the last year. But the stuff I bought a couple of years ago didn't seem as good as the stuff I bought before that. Shipping times are better. I guess my point with the bcm comment was other companies of better ...... reputation....also run great deals. It does seem in days past they used to run deals on chf uppers almost daily. Now the majority of deals I see (I am subscribed to their emails) are the freedom line.
I recently ordered a 9mm glock lower from them. When I received it the roll pin that held the mag catch was loose and would walk out. The lrbho did not work also. But they are taking care off it, although comma are slow. I am not going to complain though because i paid 120 for it which is cheap for a glock lower. I will admit I never expected the lrbho to work as I have tried other brands and none seem to work reliably on glock lowers.
All that being said, I will continue to recommend them to those on a budget.
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I just jumped on their sale for a 10.5 ex BCG + CH and 10 gen 2 pmags for $220. Haven't yet received the upper. But they did ship it out in 2 days, which was VERY unusual knowing PSA.
I don't have very high expectations. I figured it's $100 in mags alone, so even if the upper is garbage I can replace the barrel and come out ahead. I expect it'll be fine for a plinker or truck gun.
Is it realistic for you to save up the difference for a BCM in the next month? Prices and availability are going to become issues very soon I think. Part of the reason PSA has been tempting me.
Yes, depending on the election results I expect more 'panic' buying by people getting sucked in by MALL NINJA'S, COUCH COMMANDOS, and POLITICAL RHETORIC. I want this new upper in the near term but, not at the expense of a rifle I am saving up for and hope to purchase in November. If I can score a good deal and avoid panic buying of AR-15 parts in November today, it would be worth it but I also want to make sure I don't over spend and put my new rifle out of reach and be forced into possible price gouging post election.
My other option is to buy a good barrel today and watch for other parts and pieces to come up for sale and 'gun plumber it' together but, a more turn key solution from PSA or someone similar is preferred. The bare BCM 20" upper is tempting though.
I have bought a lot of PSA over the years. I think their quality has gone down over the years. That being said, they always have taken care of the issues but they are slow at it. Will I buy from them again? If I see the right deal. But when bcm is throwing free bcg and ch I usually just stick with them because that is a great deal
Do I need to be on some email list to see these free BCG offers? When I priced one with their upper I got a bit of sticker shock. I realize there are no 'free lunches' but, the price was way up there.
The CHF barrels have a very good reputation. I ordered a PSA premium non-chf upper this summer and it took just over two weeks to arrive. I ordered a BCM upper this spring and it arrived in 5 days. My BCM (16 inch standard LW midlength) upper was perfect when it arrived. My PSA (16 inch premium M4) had obvious marks through the anodizing on the delta ring from installing the handguards. Both have been perfectly reliable and about equally accurate; I am happy with both purchases. There is no doubt that BCM is better but the PSA was $140 less. The BCM is finished better and they have great customer service.
Andy
P.S. PSA had quite a reputation for installing canted FSBs. Mine took 3 windage clicks on a Matec sight to zero at 100 yards, I call that straight.
Do I need to be on some email list to see these free BCG offers? When I priced one with their upper I got a bit of sticker shock. I realize there are no 'free lunches' but, the price was way up there.
They have an email newsletter that's worth subscribing too. Everyday they post new daily deals. Lately some upper/mags/ammo/BCG combos have been very good.
Do I need to be on some email list to see these free BCG offers? When I priced one with their upper I got a bit of sticker shock. I realize there are no 'free lunches' but, the price was way up there.
I was referring to an offer they had previously done as just an example
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They have an email newsletter that's worth subscribing too. Everyday they post new daily deals. Lately some upper/mags/ammo/BCG combos have been very good.
I think Sid Post was asking about BCM's free BCG with upper purchase. BCM has not offered this in quite awhile. But both BCM and PSA have email alerts. PSA offers daily deal emails twice per day.
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I think Sid Post was asking about BCM's free BCG with upper purchase. BCM has not offered this in quite awhile. But both BCM and PSA have email alerts. PSA offers daily deal emails twice per day.
Yes, their upper with a free BCG would be an easy decision and put them close to what I expect the PSA option to cost. For my use, extra money for cosmetics isn't justified so that's why I'm looking at the PSA 20" CHF FN barreled upper options. The BCM upper with their BCG is just too much money today and puts me too close to a WOA SPR upper in terms of overall cost.
With some online sites signing up for their email subscriptions gets you discounts and perks so, I was hoping that was part of the answer to the "FREE" BCG offer with a BCM upper.
It was advertised in their email newsletter. I've only see them do it once or twice in several years though. At least when they did it, it lasted for several days.
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As far as the product in question, PSA hf barrels, they are good...made by FN. Definitely more "proven" than Sionics.
Problem with ordering said barrel from PSA is their shipping times. Their shipping department has a ways to go, but you're paying a lower price.
wildcard600
10-03-16, 14:14
Yes, their upper with a free BCG would be an easy decision and put them close to what I expect the PSA option to cost. For my use, extra money for cosmetics isn't justified so that's why I'm looking at the PSA 20" CHF FN barreled upper options. The BCM upper with their BCG is just too much money today and puts me too close to a WOA SPR upper in terms of overall cost.
With some online sites signing up for their email subscriptions gets you discounts and perks so, I was hoping that was part of the answer to the "FREE" BCG offer with a BCM upper.
BCM was running the free BCG for most of 2014, we bought 2 uppers about 8 months apart in 2014 and both had free BCG's. For 2015 and early in 2016 BCM was running a special for BCM charging handle and BCG for $69 with an upper (got my last BCM in Jan 2016 with that deal). These deals were available directly on the website, no coupon code or newsletter sub required.
2014 and 2015 were pretty slow years for AR sales it would seem. Now that things have picked back up, the free/reduced BCG deals went away.
fallenromeo
10-03-16, 14:47
PSA has been improving a lot lately. Their premium line is a good buy for the buck. Is it going to be as good as BCM, probably not. But it should be decently built and reasonably accurate for the price. If you don't want to wait for BCM or pay the price, then the PSA is probably a good buy for you.
Everyone saying to buy Sionics, Sionics doesn't make 18" or 20" barrels, nor do they have a barrel with a rifle length gas system last I checked.
As far as the product in question, PSA hf barrels, they are good...made by FN. Definitely more "proven" than Sionics.
Problem with ordering said barrel from PSA is their shipping times. Their shipping department has a ways to go, but you're paying a lower price.
A barrel is only as good as the drawings. So if the contour sucks, GP is too large or barrel is longer than it is supposed to be, that isn't on FN (as they build barrels to order). Then you get into HPT/MPI. Is PSA HPT and then having an independent lab certifying the MPI? Doubtful....
C4
Economy of scale would suggest FN doesn't retool for PSA barrels, though they might omit a QC step or do it in batches rather than individually.
Otherwise, we're back to:
A. FN has a "CRAP" setting (yet still allows PSA to advertise they are FN barrels - not damn likely.) OR
B. PSA specs shit contour, over gassed, too long barrels just for laughs? Also not damn like because their own barrels in the freedom line are excellent. My 1/8, 416R medium contour outshoots any of my other guns.
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Economy of scale would suggest FN doesn't retool for PSA barrels, though they might omit a QC step or do it in batches rather than individually.
Otherwise, we're back to:
A. FN has a "CRAP" setting (yet still allows PSA to advertise they are FN barrels - not damn likely.) OR
B. PSA specs shit contour, over gassed, too long barrels just for laughs? Also not damn like because their own barrels in the freedom line are excellent. My 1/8, 416R medium contour outshoots any of my other guns.
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It doesn't work that way. When you want them to make you a barrel, you must submit drawings.
FN cannot make a barrel that is a clone of the A4. That is why theirs and PSA's is slightly longer than the TDP calls for.
C4
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I believe it was close to thirty years ago, I read an article on barrel manufacturing. It stated that American commercial barrel makers stopped proofing barrels because steel making and the barrel making processes had advanced to the point where proof testing was no longer necessary.
The reason why proofing was needed is because steels in those days had inclusions and pockets they could not find otherwise. The only thing proof testing a modern barrel accomplishes is to reduce the life of the barrel by one over pressure event
It doesn't work that way. When you want them to make you a barrel, you must submit drawings.
FN cannot make a barrel that is a clone of the A4. That is why theirs and PSA's is slightly longer than the TDP calls for.
C4
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...and - economy of scale - otherwise more or less identical. Probably only changed in that one dimension if that keeps Uncle happy.
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...and - economy of scale - otherwise more or less identical. Probably only changed in that one dimension if that keeps Uncle happy.
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Hard to say. What is the GP size of your barrel? HPT/MPI??
C4
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Hard to say. What is the GP size of your barrel? HPT/MPI??
C4
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I know the chf barrels I bought in the past were marked hpt mpi. No idea on go size but I would guess most are over gassed, but considering their market, they probably want reliability with weak ammo
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Hard to say. What is the GP size of your barrel? HPT/MPI??
C4
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GP is the perfect size to give me good, consistent ejection patterns with 5.56 NATO or steel case training ammo.
HPT/MPI on Premiums, not on SS or melonited. Not important to me on barrels; BCGs, yes. Barrels, meh.
AND, that 1/8 SS tackdriver? $279 wearing an MLock FF rail that is very slim and pretty light. Free shipping. Loves me some PSA!
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GP is the perfect size to give me good, consistent ejection patterns with 5.56 NATO or steel case training ammo.
HPT/MPI on Premiums, not on SS or melonited. Not important to me on barrels; BCGs, yes. Barrels, meh.
AND, that 1/8 SS tackdriver? $279 wearing an MLock FF rail that is very slim and pretty light. Free shipping. Loves me some PSA!
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Sorry, we like specs and standards. Shoot what you like (your money).
C4
I know the chf barrels I bought in the past were marked hpt mpi. No idea on go size but I would guess most are over gassed, but considering their market, they probably want reliability with weak ammo
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Yeah, my gut tells me that they are over gassed.
C4
Sorry, we like specs and standards. Shoot what you like (your money).
C4
CORRECTAMUNDO! It's all about performance. All the rest is weasel words and conjecture. What works, works. All the numbers and butt hurt on the interwebz don't change a thing.
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CORRECTAMUNDO! It's all about performance. All the rest is weasel words and conjecture. What works, works. All the numbers and butt hurt on the interwebz don't change a thing.
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When we talk about performance, what we really need to talk about is standards and consistency. We have to look at the big picture. Meaning that if we took 100 samples and shot them for 10,000rds what would we find? How many were reliable? How many shot good groups? How many broke?
To give you an example of the above, I have seen Oly Arms barrels shoot 1MOA. I have seen BM AR's run (despite all the cheap, corner cutting done). Would anyone (with common sense and knowledge about the TDP) choose Oly or BM to bet their life on? I think not. So people would be wise to not base their opinion on a statistical sampling of under 10 of the same brand IMHO. This is where the knowledge of guys like Robb and IZ Guns come into play. They see and have seen more AR's than is countable at this point.
Honestly, with my knowledge and skill, I can make any low quality AR run well. I don't want to have to do this though. I also want to know that the company making my gun or parts knows what they are doing (following a set standard) and gives a shit about the product they are selling. I want to know what their QC/QA standards are. In fact, I want to see their rejected parts bin. If they tell you that they don't have rejected parts, be very concerned....
C4
It's just so darn hard to prove a negative, isn't it? Some try their damnedest to label PSA as "sub-par", a "POS", or whatever. The problem is, SO many people are getting excellent service from them. And so vanishingly few - as a percentage of sales - are having problems with them. The naysayers, usually gun sellers or the yes men of gun sellers, constantly change the argument to try in vain to marginalize these bargain ARs. You know who's seen more PSAs "than is countable"? The untold shitloads of happy owners who like them and buy more. Alas, those owners can't be dismissed as neckbeards and mall ninjas, as badly as a certain type of forum denizen wish they could.
Shortly, the usual suspects will take note of this thread and pile on. Fu@# em. I know what I know.
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Imo, if your buying multiple rifles and know what to look for, PSA is ok.
I know a friend with an upper he bought for his gf when we were in college so she could use it for hd.
I looked it over, tested it and it worked. It checked the most boxes for what he could afford. The front sight had an issue that was easily fixed. The problem was worth the cost savings to him. I think as long as your honest with yourself about what you buy, you'll be okay.
In my experience, they are an option, and one of the better for the money, but they are not bcm. I've used 2 bcm uppers now and both were perfect. Seems you get what you pay for, and cheap as good as doesn't exist.
Fwiw, after he got a real job, he swapped his stag upper for a bcm. Nothing wrong with a budget rifle, but you have increased risk.
It's just so darn hard to prove a negative, isn't it? Some try their damnedest to label PSA as "sub-par", a "POS", or whatever. The problem is, SO many people are getting excellent service from them. And so vanishingly few - as a percentage of sales - are having problems with them. The naysayers, usually gun sellers or the yes men of gun sellers, constantly change the argument to try in vain to marginalize these bargain ARs. You know who's seen more PSAs "than is countable"? The untold shitloads of happy owners who like them and buy more. Alas, those owners can't be dismissed as neckbeards and mall ninjas, as badly as a certain type of forum denizen wish they could.
Shortly, the usual suspects will take note of this thread and pile on. Fu@# em. I know what I know.
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Personally, I would take a PSA gun over the vast majority of what AR's are out there (S&W/BM/Oly/RRA/etc). With that said, I have to rely on my gun shop knowledge here. This knowledge tells me that people shoot VERY little. Remember, all guns "run" sitting in the closet, safe or trunk. Typically, 95% of AR's will run with under 100 rounds fired on the square range (slow fire). Where we see the wheels come off is hard, aggressive round counts shot in advanced carbine schools (or .GOV/MIL testing). So I wouldn't rely on not seeing problems listed on the net as a sign that ANY product is quality.
When I am interested in feedback on a firearms quality, I talk to firearms instructors (that see a lot of guns and a lot of high round counts). Which brands do they see doing well? Which ones do they see problems with? From my experience, companies like DD, Noveske, BCM, Colt, KAC, etc are seen a lot in classes and perform well. That doesn't mean that other companies like Sionics (for instance) wouldn't do well, it just means that they are not in the main stream enough.
As a gun dealer (with a store front and a range), I can stock any brand of AR manufacturer I want. I am however very selective in what brands I allow in my store. PSA did not make the list. Hopefully, this tells you something.
Without knowing what your background is in the firearms industry, knowledge level on the AR platform, it is really hard to know "what you know" VS what someone like IZGuns (that works as a professional armorer) or even me is. :) My suggestion is to stop swearing and talking down to people (that haven't even commented in this thread) and do research on the TDP and mil-spec standards. Then, with a non-biased eye, examine your PSA products. Ask difficult questions directly to the company and do your own testing (like measuring the chamber and GP, keeping a log book of rounds fired and accuracy). Then, buy 10 more of the same products and do it all again. This would actually give you a leg to stand on in TECHNICAL discussions regarding PSA (for instance). I would also suggest getting some armorer certs as well.
C4
Here is an example of PSA QC/QA department: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_301/279171_Issue_with_BCG.html
C4
Yes, you DON'T know my bonafides.
22 years LE
Last 7 as FI and Armorer
2 years Dept. Armorer
3 years Senior Instructor
Agency fielded 57 Colts
Colt LE Armorer M16/M4/Subs x4 1st and 2nd certs signed by Bob Gawe and Ken Elmore
Sig Factory LE Armorer x2
Glock LE Armorer x2
NRA LE FI for Handgun, Tactical Handgun, Patrol Rifle, Select Fire, Tactical Shotgun & Tactical Shooting. Current.
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Yes, you DON'T know my bonafides.
22 years LE
Last 7 as FI and Armorer
2 years Dept. Armorer
3 years Senior Instructor
Agency fielded 157 Colts
Colt LE Armorer M16/M4/Subs x4 1st and 2nd certs signed by Bob Gawe and Ken Elmore
Sig Factory LE Armorer x2
Glock LE Armorer x2
NRA LE FI for Handgun, Tactical Handgun, Patrol Rifle, Select Fire, Tactical Shotgun & Tactical Shooting. Current.
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Great. So you have been taught by Ken Elmore and yet like PSA? I have to admit, that is interesting/funny.
So with that knowledge, you should be fully aware of specs, standards and testing, but yet are not applying it to PSA. Odd.
C4
I'm a reluctant defender of PSA. I never considered one until I had amassed all the go to guns I would ever need. I tried PSA as a trunk gun. I was very pleasantly surprised. Bought more. Zero issues. THEN, when posting my good experience -My ACTUAL first hand EXPERIENCE- I get everything from snide references go outright hostility. Screw you all, I know what I know and what I've seen with my own eyes, be it interesting, funny, or odd.
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I'm a reluctant defender of PSA. I never considered one until I had amassed all the go to guns I would ever need. I tried PSA as a trunk gun. I was very pleasantly surprised. Bought more. Zero issues. THEN, when posting my good experience -My ACTUAL first hand EXPERIENCE- I get everything from snide references go outright hostility. Screw you all, I know what I know and what I've seen with my own eyes, be it interesting, funny, or odd.
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I think you are running into issues because not a lot of specs are known (GP size, HPT/MPI, etc) and seeing the thread I just posted shows us a lack of QC (which would also apply to their barrels).
Again, your money drive on.
C4
In that thread you just posted, I saw a guy who sounded like he couldn't find his butt with both hands having an issue he possibly caused. Maybe not, we can't say. BUT, I saw PSA make it right immediately.
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brushy bill
10-04-16, 11:11
Here is an example of PSA QC/QA department: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_301/279171_Issue_with_BCG.html
C4
Wow...and another guy in that thread claimed to have the same issue. Makes you wonder what else they might have scrimped on & does not inspire confidence. When Colt 6720s are right at $900 and 6920s can be found for slightly more, why gamble for a small discount? Everyone is free to spend their money how they might, but I wouldn't bother with the potential hassles.
In that thread you just posted, I saw a guy who sounded like he couldn't find his butt with both hands having an issue he possibly caused. Maybe not, we can't say. BUT, I saw PSA make it right immediately.
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There was more than one person with the same issue with their Bolt and then the replacement that the OP got was also not right. Hi-Point firearms has lifetime warranty and from talking with people that have used it before, they are very good at replacing parts and guns. So I don't use that as a barometer for a quality firearm manufacturer.
There is simply zero way a bolt could be shipped with the pin sticking out like that if they actually had a QC department.
C4
I don't trust PSA bolts but, the rest of the upper I have works exceptionally well for me. No high round count carbine classes but, it rains hell on feral hogs. Would I stake my life on it when I have proven rifles in the safe? Probably not but, for a feral hog thumper that is going to get beat on a lot and the worst case scenario is it fails and I go home, not worth another few hundred dollars to me.
The same is true for this prospective 20" 5.56/.223 fun gun upper. Do I really want to pay for extra quality and extra features here? No not really.
If I'm fighting the zombie apocalypse or Taliban/ISIS/Daesh/etc. here in East Texas, I'm using a different rifle. Not every rifle I own and use needs to be Tier 1 Operator ready or capable of winning a national level competition. I am neither a competitor nor an operator so, while I need reliability and accuracy my requirements are not nearly as stringent as those who live and die at the tip of a "sharp spear" in combat.
I don't trust PSA bolts but, the rest of the upper I have works exceptionally well for me. No high round count carbine classes but, it rains hell on feral hogs. Would I stake my life on it when I have proven rifles in the safe? Probably not but, for a feral hog thumper that is going to get beat on a lot and the worst case scenario is it fails and I go home, not worth another few hundred dollars to me.
The same is true for this prospective 20" 5.56/.223 fun gun upper. Do I really want to pay for extra quality and extra features here? No not really.
If I'm fighting the zombie apocalypse or Taliban/ISIS/Daesh/etc. here in East Texas, I'm using a different rifle. Not every rifle I own and use needs to be Tier 1 Operator ready or capable of winning a national level competition. I am neither a competitor nor an operator so, while I need reliability and accuracy my requirements are not nearly as stringent as those who live and die at the tip of a "sharp spear" in combat.
I think it is irrelevant what you choose to plink/hunt with (nobody cares). Where you attract comments (negative) is typically when a lesser brand is passed off as a "bet your life on" brand. So if it meets your needs, then drive on!
C4
In that thread you just posted, I saw a guy who sounded like he couldn't find his butt with both hands having an issue he possibly caused. Maybe not, we can't say. BUT, I saw PSA make it right immediately.
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I counted at least three people in that one thread alone who had the same issue.
I counted at least three people in that one thread alone who had the same issue.
Yup, I didn't read the whole thread at first. Don't even see how that can happen.
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I think it is irrelevant what you choose to plink/hunt with (nobody cares). Where you attract comments (negative) is typically when a lesser brand is passed off as a "bet your life on" brand. So if it meets your needs, then drive on!
C4
Original post
I am looking for a 20" (would consider an 18" too) rifle gas chrome lined barreled upper and the .700x.700 mil muzzle step is required. My understanding is that the 20" A2 PSA uppers use FN military style barrels (same steel, testing, chrome lining, etc. but, different work 'cells') though they are really 20 1/4" long. The FN commercial consumer uppers do not appear to be the same but, are probably pretty good too.
Is the PSA CHF upper (classic A2 style, no rails, etc.) a solid upper receiver? Is it reliable and reasonably accurate? A BCM upper would probably be a better choice but, it is a lot more expensive and wait times can be very long. Daniel Defense has a nice 18" upper with their S2W barrel but, I don't need nor want the added expense and weight (no lights, lasers, etc.) of a railed forearm. What am I giving up in a PSA CHF upper that isn't apparent on the 'outside'?
TIA,
Sid
Other than being over gassed (most likely) and having bad PSA bolts, the possible cosmetic defects and extra 1/4" barrel length are not issues to me. I could have been more clear and specific in this original post and should have assumed it would quickly dive into a thread that extolls the virtues of Tier 1 operator rifles. That's all reasonable enough but, with cost constraints I don't expect to get a Noveske, DD, BCM or some other highly regarded upper.
However, the bare BCM upper without BCG is available at a reasonable price point and is one I had missed. :blink: As usual, this site has been an immense help even with a side trip into the other issues mentioned in this thread.
So, do I wait for a PSA upper and wonder if it is cheaper than the BCM? Or do I consider a little more money and get a WOA SPR upper which in real terms is ~$125 more. While I am happy with the PSA upper I have and the role it plays in my life, I have been educated in this thread and appreciate it very much. It seems like the BCM upper is the better choice for me today and while possibly a little more money when it is all said and done, I understand why it is worth more money (a modest amount more in this case) for reasons that are not obvious from a picture or sales pitch.
I would like to THANK everyone for the contributions to this thread even though, I may have disagreements with some it has still proven valuable to me and has helped me make a more informed choice!
Hates TOS and it's inhabitants.
Cites TOS as a reliable source of information.
Hates TOS and it's inhabitants.
Cites TOS as a reliable source of information.
LOL. Hate is a very strong word. Since there are many cross members between different forums (many of which are personal friends), I would say that is incorrect. Now, the owners are a different story. ;)
No internet forum should be considered a reliable source unless the person posting is a known entity (read vetted). With that said, that pic is pretty damning especially when you consider several people (in just that thread) had the same issue. So I would say that it is a legit issue and clearly shows that no QC is occuring.
You are of course free to not read the link if it upsets you (or my posts for that matter).
C4
I trust my life to my PSA trunk guns. They are proven. I trust my reputation as a marksman to my other one. I'll keep you up to date on #5 when I get it finished.
BTW, have you seen Rob Ski's test of a PSA Freedom rifle over at AK Operator's Union? Going well at 3,000 rds. I'm betting it will go the distance. And that's not even a Premium line gun. LOL
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I trust my life to my PSA trunk guns. They are proven. I trust my reputation as a marksman to my other one. I'll keep you up to date on #5 when I get it finished.
BTW, have you seen Rob Ski's test of a PSA Freedom rifle over at AK Operator's Union? Going well at 3,000 rds. I'm betting it will go the distance. And that's not even a Premium line gun. LOL
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What is the difference in a truck gun VS a primary gun? Cost incase of theft??
Honestly, I really only have time for one forum these days so I don't venture out much. While a statistical sampling of ONE rifle with 3K through it doesn't do anything for me (as I can show you people with 10K through BM's), it is a start for sure.
C4
What is the difference in a truck gun VS a primary gun? Cost incase of theft??
Honestly, I really only have time for one forum these days so I don't venture out much. While a statistical sampling of ONE rifle with 3K through it doesn't do anything for me (as I can show you people with 10K through BM's), it is a start for sure.
C4
Mine are GTG.
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Original post
Other than being over gassed (most likely) and having bad PSA bolts, the possible cosmetic defects and extra 1/4" barrel length are not issues to me. I could have been more clear and specific in this original post and should have assumed it would quickly dive into a thread that extolls the virtues of Tier 1 operator rifles. That's all reasonable enough but, with cost constraints I don't expect to get a Noveske, DD, BCM or some other highly regarded upper.
However, the bare BCM upper without BCG is available at a reasonable price point and is one I had missed. :blink: As usual, this site has been an immense help even with a side trip into the other issues mentioned in this thread.
So, do I wait for a PSA upper and wonder if it is cheaper than the BCM? Or do I consider a little more money and get a WOA SPR upper which in real terms is ~$125 more. While I am happy with the PSA upper I have and the role it plays in my life, I have been educated in this thread and appreciate it very much. It seems like the BCM upper is the better choice for me today and while possibly a little more money when it is all said and done, I understand why it is worth more money (a modest amount more in this case) for reasons that are not obvious from a picture or sales pitch.
I would like to THANK everyone for the contributions to this thread even though, I may have disagreements with some it has still proven valuable to me and has helped me make a more informed choice!
I would say buy the barrel you want from PSA and then send it to me and I will assembly it for you (for free) and that way I can check a few specs out. Make sure to buy one of their BCG's please. :)
C4
Mine are GTG.
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Sorry, I have no idea what that means in regards to the question I asked.
C4
Here's the link to the PSA test I mentioned:
http://youtu.be/e9UNyWgrWbU
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All but one of my PSA guns have PSA (ToolCraft) BCGs, Grant.
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Here's the link to the PSA test I mentioned:
http://youtu.be/e9UNyWgrWbU
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I'm sorry, the accent makes the video unwatchable (laughing too hard). Had to turn it off. If Count Dracula did a shooting video, this would be it!
C4
You don't know Rob Ski?! It's foolish to dismiss him over his Polish accent.
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You don't know Rob Ski?! It's foolish to dismiss him over his Polish accent.
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No. Though I am not an AK guy so that might be why. I also avoid YT as much as possible so....
C4
LOL. Hate is a very strong word. Since there are many cross members between different forums (many of which are personal friends), I would say that is incorrect. Now, the owners are a different story. ;)
No internet forum should be considered a reliable source unless the person posting is a known entity (read vetted). With that said, that pic is pretty damning especially when you consider several people (in just that thread) had the same issue. So I would say that it is a legit issue and clearly shows that no QC is occuring.
You are of course free to not read the link if it upsets you (or my posts for that matter).
C4
Grant, if your posts upset me I wouldn't have given you over $1400 for my BCM with a Geissele.
At the end of the day, the economy isn't the best at the moment. Not everyone has the extra $150 to $200 to buy a BCM or Colt. At this point in our Republic's history, we need more AR's in the hands of more civilians. Buying a PSA, for most people, also allows them to buy 500 rounds of ammo and mags with it- and we can all agree that what matters infinitely more than the gun is whether or not you go out and actually shoot it. Give me someone with a worn out PSA who can run a mile under 7:30 than a fatty with a tricked out BCM and a safe full of 77gr.
America needs to shoot and to train more than anything else.
All but one of my PSA guns have PSA (ToolCraft) BCGs, Grant.
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Cool. What impresses me more is what kind of testing went into it and their QC processes. How many do they reject? Do they have expensive jigs (go no go gauges) to check each bolt?? My guess is that they do not or those bolts with the ejector pins hanging out wouldn't have passed.
41751
C4
America needs to train more than anything else.
Here, I fixed that for you.
I completely agree we need more ARs for the cause but at least 1/2 the owners dont know how to run them or have put more than a 100 round through them. Buying an AR and going to the range once to "make sure it works" and then throwing it under your bed is not helpful. We are far from "There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
Grant, if your posts upset me I wouldn't have given you over $1400 for my BCM with a Geissele.
At the end of the day, the economy isn't the best at the moment. Not everyone has the extra $150 to $200 to buy a BCM or Colt. At this point in our Republic's history, we need more AR's in the hands of more civilians. Buying a PSA, for most people, also allows them to buy 500 rounds of ammo and mags with it- and we can all agree that what matters infinitely more than the gun is whether or not you go out and actually shoot it. Give me someone with a worn out PSA who can run a mile under 7:30 than a fatty with a tricked out BCM and a safe full of 77gr.
America needs to shoot and to train more than anything else.
Honestly, I don't care what people buy and the more gun owners in general is a good thing I think. Where we get into the weeds is when we try and establish statements of quality without scientific testing.
Personally, I will take the guy that has actually attended training classes and knows how to shoot. Their weight is irrelevant (as I know 6 minute mile runners that cannot shoot and I know 400LBS guys that will burn you down with a Hi-Point).
Edited to add, thank you for your business!
C4
Here, I fixed that for you.
I completely agree we need more ARs for the cause but at least 1/2 the owners dont know how to run them or have put more than a 100 round through them. Buying an AR and going to the range once to "make sure it works" and then throwing it under your bed is not helpful. We are far from "There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
Bingo.
C4
Cool. What impresses me more is what kind of testing went into it and their QC processes. How many do they reject? Do they have expensive jigs (go no go gauges) to check each bolt?? My guess is that they do not or those bolts with the ejector pins hanging out wouldn't have passed.
41751
C4
Don't know their company policies. Don't really trust those barfcom pics of BCGs, nor the me toos. I could be wrong, but all my PSA BCGs and tens of thousands of others are fine, so..
I'm all about results. And if I can save $400 while I'm at it - great! Specs can lie, great companies screw up, but results speak for themselves.
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Don't know their company policies. Don't really trust those barfcom pics of BCGs, nor the me toos. I could be wrong, but all my PSA BCGs and tens of thousands of others are fine, so..
I'm all about results. And if I can save $400 while I'm at it - great! Specs can lie, great companies screw up, but results speak for themselves.
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He pics are legit because advised them to return the BCG to them and they replaced it. If it had been jacked up by the customer they wouldn't have done.
I am sure they have tons of working BCG's out there. That thread tells me a lot about their QC processes though.
C4
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At the end of the day, the economy isn't the best at the moment. Not everyone has the extra $150 to $200 to buy a BCM or Colt. At this point in our Republic's history, we need more AR's in the hands of more civilians. Buying a PSA, for most people, also allows them to buy 500 rounds of ammo and mags with it- and we can all agree that what matters infinitely more than the gun is whether or not you go out and actually shoot it. Give me someone with a worn out PSA who can run a mile under 7:30 than a fatty with a tricked out BCM and a safe full of 77gr.
America needs to shoot and to train more than anything else.
CPM speaks the truth here. It's like laughing at the old farmer standing at the 600 yard line with a worn out 30-30 without a lick of blueing left. He embarrassed some "couch commandos" with more money than common sense.
I am trying to save for a scope but, I don't have to buy it today or next month. The 3x9 I have works ok but, it has some serious short comings where I use it. With my ammo running low for my 6.8, I have to also factor in whether 140 rounds will last me until I get a good paycheck again. So, I can window shop for the scope until funds arrive and then debate the value of a lesser but serviceable upper with some money left over for ammo or getting a "better" upper.
I can shoot .223 for a 1/3 the cost of 6.8 and .223 is a lot more plentiful where I live. So, a value oriented 20" A2 style upper is balanced against its cost with cheaper ammunition or, buying more of the relatively expensive 6.8SPC. FWIW, in my hands, a $1 a round 6.8 SPC works much better than a $1 round 5.56. Like my Glock 17, there is something to be said for being able to go shoot 10 good rounds several times a week with a serviceable firearm versus going once a week with something more expensive to feed. When or if I ever consistently hit a man sized target a 600 yards is when I will start to worry whether a PSA, Wilson, Criterion, etc. barrel is good enough. A 4 moa shooter doesn't need a 1/2 moa rifle and I'm somewhere between there on a good day.
As it stands at the moment, the BCM bare 20" upper is looking pretty good. Handguards and a BCG can follow in November hopefully with some ammunition. If Santa is nice to me, I hope to have a new scope under the Christmas tree. Until then, the search for S&B and PPU 6.8SPC continues but, with the election coming up the $0.50 a round stuff I bought previously seems to have dried up and gone away.
He pics are legit because advised them to return the BCG to them and they replaced it. If it had been jacked up by the customer they wouldn't have done.
I am sure they have tons of working BCG's out there. That thread tells me a lot about their QC processes though.
C4
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CS told him to send it back without a clue as to what actually happened. Probly cost em a pin and they got good PR. Did ToolCraft QA miss that,too. LOL.
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What is the difference in a truck gun VS a primary gun? Cost incase of theft??There shouldn't be any difference -- best qualified tool for the most important purposes and all -- but there's a curious logic espoused by some that hard use weapons should be locked away lest something happen to them in service to their purpose, and the middling stuff made tip of the spear so it stings less if you lose 'em.
Flat backwards to my way of thinking, but to each their own, I guess.
IBM used to be infamous for their ability to produce FUD; fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Look to Henderson Defense in Las Vegas for high round count PSA performance, no FUD, just clear convincing real life experience on a sample size that cannot be refuted. The PSA products simply work, on round counts that make an advanced carbine class look like kindergarten.
IBM used to be infamous for their ability to produce FUD; fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Look to Henderson Defense in Las Vegas for high round count PSA performance, no FUD, just clear convincing real life experience on a sample size that cannot be refuted. The PSA products simply work, on round counts that make an advanced carbine class look like kindergarten.
I dont know if I would classify Battlefield Las Vegas as making an advanced carbine class look like kindergarten. They are high round counts but it is in a completely controlled environment surrounded by armorers. I would count filthy 14 as a much better test of longevity - http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/ (reading it in Pat's voice makes me smile).
There shouldn't be any difference -- best qualified tool for the most important purposes and all -- but there's a curious logic espoused by some that hard use weapons should be locked away lest something happen to them in service to their purpose, and the middling stuff made tip of the spear so it stings less if you lose 'em.
Flat backwards to my way of thinking, but to each their own, I guess.
I've been trying to keep outta this thread, but what you've just mentioned is what don't understand. I want to own ONLY guns that are the best I can afford. You don't ever get to decide when the shit pops of, so why would you want the gun at hand to be the "range turd", while the pro gear stays locked up at the house?
I don't get it either, Hapworth
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I've been trying to keep outta this thread, but what you've just mentioned is what don't understand. I want to own ONLY guns that are the best I can afford. You don't ever get to decide when the shit pops of, so why would you want the gun at hand to be the "range turd", while the pro gear stays locked up at the house?
I don't get it either, Hapworth
I bought a rifle from a man that felt it was too nice to hunt with. :rolleyes: What good does a hunting rifle do locked up in a gun safe?
However, not every rifle has to be the absolute best. Good enough yes, best no. I agree that a "range turd" has no place in my house and shouldn't in most houses. However, a good solid rifle doesn't have to be best to be effective and reliable. Shooter skill plays a significant role here too.
The Russians in WW2 fielded what a lot of us would throw in the scrap heap today and still managed to turn the Nazi's away with great loss of life on all sides. Would the war have gone differently if they had a "better" rifle or submachine gun or ....?
Better equipment does not make up for lower shooter skill levels. Both parts have to function to an acceptable level to be effective and reliable.
The Russians in WW2 fielded what a lot of us would throw in the scrap heap today and still managed to turn the Nazi's away with great loss of life on all sides. Would the war have gone differently if they had a "better" rifle or submachine gun or ....?
I'd take an MP40 over an MP5 any day of the week personally. Don't understand my reasons why? Watch MidwayUSA's Rapid Fire episode where the MP5 takes on the MP40. No, I'm not trying to say the MP40 is any better made or reliable than the MP5. For my wants and needs, an MP40 would work perfectly. A PPSh41 would be totally kick ass too!
http://outdoorchannel.com/showvideos.aspx?show-id=955
I bought a rifle from a man that felt it was too nice to hunt with. :rolleyes: What good does a hunting rifle do locked up in a gun safe?
However, not every rifle has to be the absolute best. Good enough yes, best no. I agree that a "range turd" has no place in my house and shouldn't in most houses. However, a good solid rifle doesn't have to be best to be effective and reliable. Shooter skill plays a significant role here too.
The Russians in WW2 fielded what a lot of us would throw in the scrap heap today and still managed to turn the Nazi's away with great loss of life on all sides. Would the war have gone differently if they had a "better" rifle or submachine gun or ....?
Better equipment does not make up for lower shooter skill levels. Both parts have to function to an acceptable level to be effective and reliable.I agree with your essential point that good enough will do for purpose -- the question is which purpose and how do we arrive at "good enough".
"Best" -- another subjective term -- isn't what's being argued for; mil spec is favored not because it's "best", but because it's a standard -- a proven and quantifiable minimum by which to assess reasonably expected and replicable results.
For me, this isn't a name brand or price tag issue; it's a "built to (at least) a specific set of established minimums that are long-term vetted for every use up to and including all-business" issue.
Certainly shooter skill is of utmost importance, but no one would argue that and it seems a straw man in the scope of this discussion; so too counterfactuals about historic wars.
"Range Turds"! Assininity in the highest. LOL! Reductio ad absurdum. So a solid, vetted rifle lacking an M4C approved roll mark is a range turd. Independent thought much?
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Function. Performance. Reliability over at least a few thousand rounds with a good number of mag dumps, run dirty, but not dry. Accuracy.
Performance is ALL that matters.
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CS told him to send it back without a clue as to what actually happened. Probly cost em a pin and they got good PR. Did ToolCraft QA miss that,too. LOL.
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They had him send it back and then replaced it. Companies that find that the customer tampered with something do not replace it.
My guess is that PSA buys the bolts stripped. They then install the ejector and gas rings. That isn't always the case as many companies buy a finished product (and rely on the manufacturer to also do their QC).
My gut tells me that it was PSA that messed up that ejector pin.
C4
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Here, I fixed that for you.
I completely agree we need more ARs for the cause but at least 1/2 the owners dont know how to run them or have put more than a 100 round through them. Buying an AR and going to the range once to "make sure it works" and then throwing it under your bed is not helpful. We are far from "There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
You know I'm not sure what the point your post was. I said train in my original one. It was already there, along with shoot. I even specified a minimum of 500 rounds with which to train/shoot. I was specifically addressing the people who do what you just wrote.
I bought a rifle from a man that felt it was too nice to hunt with. :rolleyes: What good does a hunting rifle do locked up in a gun safe?
However, not every rifle has to be the absolute best. Good enough yes, best no. I agree that a "range turd" has no place in my house and shouldn't in most houses. However, a good solid rifle doesn't have to be best to be effective and reliable. Shooter skill plays a significant role here too.
The Russians in WW2 fielded what a lot of us would throw in the scrap heap today and still managed to turn the Nazi's away with great loss of life on all sides. Would the war have gone differently if they had a "better" rifle or submachine gun or ....?
Better equipment does not make up for lower shooter skill levels. Both parts have to function to an acceptable level to be effective and reliable.
I think we have to separate hunting AR's from duty/defensive guns. If you tell me that you are going to take the extra savings and go to shooting schools, then awesome! This is rarely the case in my experience.
C4
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So many suppositions and "gut feelings". I thought this was "a place about facts and specs". I have a spec for you - 4 out of 4 excellent PSAs for cheap.
And yes, they would have replaced the pin in that bolt. They couldn't PROVE what happened. Cheap, good PR.
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Function. Performance. Reliability over at least a few thousand rounds with a good number of mag dumps, run dirty, but not dry. Accuracy.
Performance is ALL that matters.
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If performance (on a statistical sampling of one) is all that matter, I could show you some OLY/RRA/BM AR's that "run." Would you recommend them across the board for all LE and Military use?
Let's switch it and talk handguns? What is your issued duty pistol?
C4
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They had him send it back and then replaced it. Companies that find that the customer tampered with something do not replace it.
My guess is that PSA buys the bolts stripped. They then install the ejector and gas rings. That isn't always the case as many companies buy a finished product (and rely on the manufacturer to also do their QC).
My gut tells me that it was PSA that messed up that ejector pin.
C4
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Sounds like a lot of assumptions. Give me the facts Grant. Facts are a two way street. Spout all the facts that you want about BCM and Colt, but do the same for other companies too. Your opinion and assumptions on other companies are just that. In my best Joe Friday voice, "just the facts" please.
Let's NOT slip sideways and find some other way to minimize or marginalize my - and many, many others - good experience with PSA AR15s. And my sample ALONE is 4, not 1.
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So many suppositions and "gut feelings". I thought this was "a place about facts and specs". I have a spec for you - 4 out of 4 excellent PSAs for cheap.
And yes, they would have replaced the pin in that bolt. They couldn't PROVE what happened. Cheap, good PR.
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When you have a QC department that documents and has set in stone procedures and have jigs that they run parts through to check dims, you would be able to refute the customer easily. Since this customer wasn't the only one that got a BCG LIKE this tells us that OP was telling the truth.
C4
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Sounds like a lot of assumptions. Give me the facts Grant. Facts are a two way street. Spout all the facts that you want about BCM and Colt, but do the same for other companies too. Your opinion and assumptions on other companies are just that. In my best Joe Friday voice, "just the facts" please.
No, not really. I have bought bolts in many different formats (stripped, complete, in the white, etc). So I understand what a companies options are (no assumptions).
There are two options for fault here. The manufacturer of the bolt or PSA. Either option should causes the consumer to be concerned in my professional opinion.
C4
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Let's NOT slip sideways and find some other way to minimize or marginalize my - and many, many others - good experience with PSA AR15s. And my sample ALONE is 4, not 1.
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Slip, good one. Guns are guns. Why does your department issue a Glock/M&P/etc vs a Hi-point/Bersa/Taurus?? Standards and specs.
Got a pic of your 4 different PSA rifles?
C4
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No, not really. I have bought bolts in many different formats (stripped, complete, in the white, etc). So I understand what a companies options are (no assumptions).
Here are two options for fault here. The manufacturer of the bolt or PSA. Either option should causes the consumer to be concerned in my professional opinion.
C4
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Grant,
When you start with "...My guess is..." that means it's a guess, an assumption, an opinion. Do you have facts on all of the PSA bolt types? Do you know who makes them, do you know how they are assembled, and do you know who assembles them? I'm looking for the facts for all of their bolts from the PTAC to the Premium line. Due to price point I'm sure the PTAC and Freedom lines are made "cheaper" with some type of corners cut (that's MY assumption), but my primary focus would be their Premium line of bolts. Now if you are a PSA dealer and privy to the facts I'd love to hear them.
Ray
...My guess is that PSA buys the bolts stripped. They then install the ejector and gas rings. That isn't always the case as many companies buy a finished product (and rely on the manufacturer to also do their QC).
My gut tells me that it was PSA that messed up that ejector pin.
C4
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Grant,
When you start with "...My guess is..." that means it's a guess, an assumption, an opinion. Do you have facts on all of the PSA bolt types? Do you know who makes them, do you know how they are assembled, and do you know who assembles them? I'm looking for the facts for all of their bolts from the PTAC to the Premium line. Due to price point I'm sure the PTAC and Freedom lines are made "cheaper" with some type of corners cut (that's MY assumption), but my primary focus would be their Premium line of bolts. Now if you are a PSA dealer and privy to the facts I'd love to hear them.
Ray
I really don't want to throw toolcraft (the assumed manufacturer) under the bus (as they are a good company from what I know). So as I said, the blame is on one of them. The main reason why I think it is PSA is because companies trying to save money buy items stripped.
C4
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Slip, good one. Guns are guns. Why does your department issue a Glock/M&P/etc vs a Hi-point/Bersa/Taurus?? Standards and specs.
Got a pic of your 4 different PSA rifles?
C4
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TF? You're slipping, Grant. Never said guns are guns. Try to keep up. My PSAs perform. Period.
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SeriousStudent
10-04-16, 20:35
I have an idea who's slipping, people that like to engage in bickering and personal attacks.
Don't do that.
I would get the BCM or look at a Sionics.
If you end up with a PSA get the upper without BCG and put a BCM or other known quality bolt and carrier in there. I wouldn't run a PSA BCG if it was free.
Why not? There is NOTHING wrong with a PSA Premium BCG. I have bought a few and have NEVER had a problem with them. I also own a BCM BCG and it placed next to my PSA Premium BCG, they look identical. All of my PSA BCG's are stamped "F" which means they were made by FN. And, the PSA has ALL the same specs as the BCM BCG.
If it makes you sleep better at night paying up to $100 more for a BCM BCG, by all means, do so. :confused:
TF? You're slipping, Grant. Never said guns are guns. Try to keep up. My PSAs perform. Period.
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Really?? You are trying to tell us that PSA is "just as good as."
C4
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ColtSeavers
10-04-16, 21:05
Why not? There is NOTHING wrong with a PSA Premium BCG. I have bought a few and have NEVER had a problem with them. I also own a BCM BCG and it placed next to my PSA Premium BCG, they look identical. All of my PSA BCG's are stamped "F" which means they were made by FN. And, the PSA has ALL the same specs as the BCM BCG.
If it makes you sleep better at night paying up to $100 more for a BCM BCG, by all means, do so. :confused:
You think your opinion matters? After your other thread?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr1icyZtzE
Why not? There is NOTHING wrong with a PSA Premium BCG. I have bought a few and have NEVER had a problem with them. I also own a BCM BCG and it placed next to my PSA Premium BCG, they look identical. All of my PSA BCG's are stamped "F" which means they were made by FN. And, the PSA has ALL the same specs as the BCM BCG.
If it makes you sleep better at night paying up to $100 more for a BCM BCG, by all means, do so. :confused:
Just as FYI, FN cannot use any knowledge gained from the TDP to build a BCG. They also cannot use any parts for the .mil contract for the M4/M16's to build them either. So that means you are not getting what you think you are.
C4
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You think your opinion matters? After your other thread?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr1icyZtzE
Ah yes, must I forget, that I am dealing with an elite bunch of AR members here that ONLY WANT and BUY the BEST, as if they were competing among one another!
I must remember to know and keep my place in line with my opinions and advice, at the bottom. SMFH! You people are pathetic!
Worth revisiting...
...Kindly advance the discussion in as constructive a manner as possible. Agreement is by no means essential, but understanding and civility are. Should you wish to address something that you view as a potential shortcoming, remember that reinforcement and education are always in good taste, but sharpshooting and ridicule have no place here, regardless of how right or wrong the point in question might be.
AC
Ah yes, must I forget, that I am dealing with an elite bunch of AR members here that ONLY WANT and BUY the BEST, as if they were competing among one another!
I must remember to know and keep my place in line with my opinions and advice, at the bottom. SMFH! You people are pathetic!
Let me ask you a question - if you had two identically specced rifles new in box and you could take either one home at no cost other than the $2 for the NICS check, one an Colt LE6920 and one a PSA which one would you choose?
Now let's throw BCM and Daniel Defence into the mix, would you choose the PSA? If not why?
ColtSeavers
10-04-16, 21:24
Ah yes, must I forget, that I am dealing with an elite bunch of AR members here that ONLY WANT and BUY the BEST, as if they were competing among one another!
I must remember to know and keep my place in line with my opinions and advice, at the bottom. SMFH! You people are pathetic!
Well allow me to retort:
So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...
Let me ask you a question - if you had two identically specced rifles new in box and you could take either one home at no cost other than the $2 for the NICS check, one an Colt LE6920 and one a PSA which one would you choose?
Now let's throw BCM and Daniel Defence into the mix, would you choose the PSA? If not why?
Just to pi** the ELITE members off here, the PSA!
Look, I know I am just a minnow in a tank full of sharks. So, please, just get all of your pinned up frustrations out in one reply so I don't have to keep coming back here to try and fight you off one at a time.
Like I have stated before; y'all must all throw your AR'S in a pile, circle them, and stroke to some AR ritual commandments!
I now know that WHATEVER my opinion is here, it will NEVER be good enough for some of you.
The ONLY time I know that my opinion counted when speaking about M4's was when I was in Desert Storm 1991. Those were REAL brethren!
Just to pi** the ELITE members off here, the PSA!
Look, I know I am just a minnow in a tank full of sharks. So, please, just get all of your pinned up frustrations out in one reply so I don't have to keep coming back here to try and fight you off one at a time.
Like I have stated before; y'all must all throw your AR'S in a pile, circle them, and stroke to some AR ritual commandments!
I now know that WHATEVER my opinion is here, it will NEVER be good enough for some of you.
The ONLY time I know that my opinion counted when speaking about M4's was when I was in Desert Storm 1991. Those were REAL brethren!
Not sure how wanting a quality firearm is being elite. The firearm you were issued wasn't made by PSA or Ruger or BM. Yes, not all opinions are created equal. You are for sure entitled to yours though.
C4
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Well allow me to retort:
And you, I think you get a hard on by just following me around spewing your rhetoric BS about me and my replies!
Just to pi** the ELITE members off here, the PSA!
Look, I know I am just a minnow in a tank full of sharks. So, please, just get all of your pinned up frustrations out in one reply so I don't have to keep coming back here to try and fight you off one at a time.
Like I have stated before; y'all must all throw your AR'S in a pile, circle them, and stroke to some AR ritual commandments!
I now know that WHATEVER my opinion is here, it will NEVER be good enough for some of you.
The ONLY time I know that my opinion counted when speaking about M4's was when I was in Desert Storm 1991. Those were REAL brethren!
I thought it was an honest question that would allow us to look at the issue further. Sorry if you were offended.
I do feel your response does not help at all but that is just my opinion.
I think we have to separate hunting AR's from duty/defensive guns. If you tell me that you are going to take the extra savings and go to shooting schools, then awesome! This is rarely the case in my experience.
C4
Yes, I want a good enough rifle to build skills with. I want one I can afford to shoot often as a skill builder, not just the few rounds expended on feral hogs. If I can get some general recreation out of it, even better. Could I use it for self defense ... sure but, it won't be what I grab first. I have been to Front Sight for a 4 day class and I was not overly impressed. My squad had foreign students who had never fired a firearm before and some other people who were wives/girlfriends there to humor their husband/boyfriend.
When time and finances allow, I have identified some more personalized trainers who I would love to study under. Will I take this rifle? Highly unlikely unless it ends up being a BCM or similar make. First, I want to build some good basic skills (better than what I have today) without picking up bad habits. In the past reputable training DVD's helped but, ultimately to really excel I needed a skilled instructor that would work with me to correct my deficiencies and teach me new skills. In the big city it was all about handguns and CCW but, now I'm in the country and my rifle skills need some improvement.
If I can get a serviceable ~$600 upper, I believe that will serve me better than a ~$1200 upper since I will have money left over to buy ammo and I am closer to tuition for good rifle class. What I think I need most today is a "good enough" upper and more rounds downrange. After that is when I start to think about formal training and a firearm appropriate for the rigor of the training I choose.
Just as FYI, FN cannot use any knowledge gained from the TDP to build a BCG. They also cannot use any parts for the .mil contract for the M4/M16's to build them either. So that means you are not getting what you think you are.
C4
Absolutely correct. It may come from the same plant but, as I said in my previous post FN cannot use the D.O.D. intellectual and physical property for their commercial use.
SeriousStudent
10-04-16, 22:18
Again, we have someone that cannot stop making personal attacks.
We also have someone that is going to be taking a prolonged vacation from M4C.
AR-556 - this is not TOS or some other place you are used to. You are not the only military veteran here, either.
Be polite or be gone.
As another point of reference, I did consider the FN 20" upper and they are currently selling for $800. That was just too much money and not enough different from other cheaper offerings to justify the price. Heck, for ~$1K I can get a Colt 6920 with occasional Magpul versions being a bit cheaper (passed on one at $900 plus tax). However, I do not want a carbine gas 16" rifle whether Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske, or ......
A WOA 18" rifle gas SPR upper is $675 but a BCG and charging handle add ~$120. I would prefer a more classic A2 styled 20" upper. The Compass Lake Service Rifle Upper runs $675~$750 again plus BCG and charging handle. The BCM at ~$500 with hand guard plus another ~$120 for charging handle and BCG (not BCM) is available today, is a known quantity, is probably in real terms ~$100 more than a similar appearing PSA upper with a good BCG (with an unknown availability date) and is at least $200 cheaper than the WOA and Compass Lake options.
So ~$620 for a BCM versus ~$500 for a PSA at some point in the future? BCM definitely seems to be worth the extra $120 (heck the price difference is apparently only the BCG and charging handle so, I could go cheaper there possibly). Is the WOA or Compass Lake worth another ~$180 and would I see the benefit of the extra money spent there instead of on some bulk ammo buy? Honestly, I think I need the ammo for skill building with an adequate upper versus no ammo with an arguably more accurate upper.
And again so there is no confusion, this isn't my primary or secondary SHTF/Zombie Apocolypse/Home Defense/etc. rifle. It is a skill builder, recreational toy, and beater for use around the farm (coyotes and feral dogs mainly but, could take a few shots at hogs too). I want it to build good foundational skills to enable me to benefit from good quality professional instruction at some point in the future. I hope to put more hurt on the feral hogs too with better skills. :)
wildcard600
10-04-16, 22:19
Why not? There is NOTHING wrong with a PSA Premium BCG. I have bought a few and have NEVER had a problem with them. I also own a BCM BCG and it placed next to my PSA Premium BCG, they look identical. All of my PSA BCG's are stamped "F" which means they were made by FN. And, the PSA has ALL the same specs as the BCM BCG.
If it makes you sleep better at night paying up to $100 more for a BCM BCG, by all means, do so. :confused:
Good for you. The PSA BCG's i have seen looked like some $69 gunshow special sold out of the trunk of a car.
Does it burn your panties to know that my $200 PSA beater upper runs a $160 BCM bolt ? I hope it doesn't keep you up at night.
SeriousStudent
10-04-16, 22:31
Good for you. The PSA BCG's i have seen looked like some $69 gunshow special sold out of the trunk of a car.
Does it burn your panties to know that my $200 PSA beater upper runs a $160 BCM bolt ? I hope it doesn't keep you up at night.
DO NOT add fuel to the fire. I've banned four people tonight, five is not a lot of extra work.
Funny how these things always degenerate into name calling, threads get locked, and people get banned. So much for "Just as good as".
We're done here.
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