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I've been out of firearms for awhile and seek your help.
My youngest son wants to purchase his first M4. Rather than buying a complete rifle, he would rather purchase a completed upper and lower and attach them. Not build them from scratch.
His usage would be for HD, maybe a little hunting and target practice. His price range is $500.00 - $600.00. He prefers to have it in 5.56/.223 with the ability to shoot 9mm, with additions, in the future.
What do you recommend and where do you recommend he buy it?
Thanks for you help.
If he wants a quality AR for defensive purposes, save ~$900 and buy a Colt 6920 or 6720.
I would also take a look at BCM, Sionics, and SOLGW offerings.
If he just wants to shoot dirt, I'm sure he could piece together a PSA in that price range.
MOLON AABE
10-10-16, 23:31
BCM or Aero Precision all the way. Avoid PSA, Anderson, Bushmaster,and any type of 80 % lower.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
556BlackRifle
10-11-16, 00:11
I'd go with a Colt as Scooter22 mentions above as my first choice. It's a little bit more money but it's worth it.
Good luck!
Consider the Armalite line as well. Good quality at a decent price.
(at least for a few more weeks...move fast!)
NWcityguy2
10-11-16, 01:06
He would be well served by a PSA upper and lower. A PSA freedom upper, BCG, andassembled lower and a rear sight will be in his price range. My preference for a general purpose gun is a 16" mid-length.
Consider the Armalite line as well. Good quality at a decent price.
(at least for a few more weeks...move fast!)
First time I've ever heard that.
OP - 95% of the members here will say Colt 6920/6720, which will be $8-900. Normally I'd say the same and advocate saving a little longer, but that's a significant amount more than his budget and when Hillary gets elected in less than a month, shit is going to be very hard to find for a while. So, I'd recommend Aero Precision's OEM rifle that Brownells has for $560 right now. Not sure where he got the idea he can have one gun that'll shoot 5.56 and 9mm so he needs to forget that idea. If that doesn't work for whatever reason, I check Palmetto State Armory next. Their CHF line will be out of his price range I think, but the premium line is supposedly pretty decent. If not, Freedom upper and 9130 bolt. He probably doesn't have a lot of time and I'd really recommend pushing that budget more so that he can get a great gun the first time.
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If he's wanting a solid gun that will shoot but not run a high risk of malfunctioning, I would recommend what I recommend to my friends who want to stay under $600 - Smith and Wesson M&P15 Sport II. I don't see any particular point in purchasing two halves that may or may not work well. I've done it, but only tacking on a BCM upper to a PSA lower. Which would be just a little out of his price range.
Can of worms question because very few around here will endorse anything for serious use that can be gotten new for under $600. Does your son have a specific reason for wanting to mate separate upper and lower rather than buy a complete rifle?
A go-to entry-level AR is the S&W M&P Sport II if your son's willing to consider buying complete; Palmetto State Armory is another option for separate uppers and lowers at economical prices, but at this point in election season, it'll be a stretch to find even these at under $600 out the door, though you might get lucky somewhere.
Were it me, if at all possible I'd take the hit and go directly to G&R and grab a Colt 6720, which are there right now for $900 and be glad I got away with one of the good ones. http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6720
First time I've ever heard that.
OP - 95% of the members here will say Colt 6920/6720, which will be $8-900. Normally I'd say the same and advocate saving a little longer, but that's a significant amount more than his budget and when Hillary gets elected in less than a month, shit is going to be very hard to find for a while. So, I'd recommend Aero Precision's OEM rifle that Brownells has for $560 right now. Not sure where he got the idea he can have one gun that'll shoot 5.56 and 9mm so he needs to forget that idea. If that doesn't work for whatever reason, I check Palmetto State Armory next. Their CHF line will be out of his price range I think, but the premium line is supposedly pretty decent. If not, Freedom upper and 9130 bolt. He probably doesn't have a lot of time and I'd really recommend pushing that budget more so that he can get a great gun the first time.
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While not "top tier" I've seen the DEF15 model for as cheap as 560 on GB recently.
Can't think of any other guns in that price range with the correct barrel steel and 1:7" twist. If someone was absolutely dead set on spending under 600 that's the direction I'd likely steer them.
If they were still in stock, a Colt OEM 1 or 2 from GandR would have been perfect- they were $740/760 ish. Then he can add his own furniture as future funds allow, instead of being stuck with factory stuff.
There are two very nice PSA rifles in the EE here, for $750, free shipping.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?189288-Colt-POF-LWRC-amp-PSA-Rifles
Not my sale, just trying to help.
PSA blem lower mated to a BCM complete upper (or another top tier brand, but I only have experience with BCM) would be the closest to that price range and still be quality. If that's too expensive, maybe he should look into the M&P 15 or the Ruger AR 556, but you get what you pay for.
Like someone else said, things are going to get mighty expensive in a month, so take that into consideration. Good luck!
If he is fixed to that price range and that method of assembling the rifle, you are looking at a Palmetto State Armory or Aero Precision build. I'd go the route of a S&W sport II or ruger 556 for the sake of the warranty. These rifles are reliable enough for range use and home defense. Not sure why he'd prefer to buy a completed upper and lower vs a complete rifle.
Also, you can't run a 9mm conversion with the same bag of parts. You'll need a whole new upper and a conversion kit for the lower if you don't want a dedicated 9mm lower. Check Brownells for these and decide what magazine platform you want. Glock patterned mags are obviously more popular and cost efficient.
PSA blem lower mated to a BCM complete upper (or another top tier brand, but I only have experience with BCM) would be the closest to that price range and still be quality. If that's too expensive, maybe he should look into the M&P 15 or the Ruger AR 556, but you get what you pay for.
Like someone else said, things are going to get mighty expensive in a month, so take that into consideration. Good luck!I'll second the PSA blem/BCM upper idea. If Hillary gets elected, the OP's son better get the best he can afford. It might be his last.
OK gentlemen, thanks very much for your advice and recommendations.
I've passed on the info to my son and now he can digest it and make a decision.
In lieu of the coming election and possible disaster if Clinton gets the nod ( my opinion ) I also told him to move on it. If I was in his situation, I'd buy the Aero AC-15 and, by the way, I own a Colt 6920.
Thanks again.
At a minimum he should buy a lower (stripped or complete) as soon as he can afford, then he can ponder the upper decision as well.
Averageman
10-12-16, 15:56
At a minimum he should buy a lower (stripped or complete) as soon as he can afford, then he can ponder the upper decision as well.
I would buy a BCM upper and although he may not want to put the parts in the lower himself, I am sure with your help he could easily do so.
The cost saving may allow him to purchase now and actually pay for it and still stay under the 600-700 dollar mark.
At this point I don't "need" anything, but have another complete upper from BCM is looking good. A nice 20" upper would be really handy.
NWcityguy2
10-12-16, 18:00
OK gentlemen, thanks very much for your advice and recommendations.
I've passed on the info to my son and now he can digest it and make a decision.
In lieu of the coming election and possible disaster if Clinton gets the nod ( my opinion ) I also told him to move on it. If I was in his situation, I'd buy the Aero AC-15 and, by the way, I own a Colt 6920.
Thanks again.
Your son will be hard pressed to notice the difference between a Colt and one of the better budget guns out there when actually shooting the rifle. Lots of good ways to go these days when buying.
Lend him the money and have him buy a Colt M4/6920, NOW.
Just buy the Aero Precision complete gun. I just handled one this past weekend and it's unbelievable they are able to put that rifle on the market for the same money as the smith sport and the Ruger ar556. Much higher quality with full auto m16 Bolt carrier group that was staked better than most rifles that cost double that I've seen, Carpenter 158 bolt that's MPI and HPT. Mid length gas system, 4150 CMV 1/7 twist barrel that's treated. The fit and finish was awesome. The anodizing is done extremely well and doesn't have that rough chalky coating that looks like garbage after a week of handling. This rifle is leaps and bounds above the Smith and Ruger and I would put it somewhere between a premium PSA and a Colt in terms of quality, but with a price tag of the smith and Ruger. This in my mind is the best bang for the buck on the market right now and will serve anyone very well as a home defense and range gun.
I always suggest saving for at least a colt. However, if you're truly on a fixed budget, best thing is to do your homework( which you are vIA this thread). Psa has good specs, but should be checked out and tested to verify correct parts/assembly ( goes for all guns, but even more critical with budget guns).
If you know what to look for, I'd say get a budget gun, look it over, verify performance, and stock up on ammo.
KeithTexas
10-12-16, 22:15
If he's really trying hard to keep it <$600
I'd probably recommend PSA CHF - maybe something like this:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-14-7-chf-mid-length-lightweight-5-56-nato-1-7-premium-upper-with-bcg-and-ch.html
Then a generic lower for another ~$150
Or you could do worse than this one from Aero, just add stock and hand guard:
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/oem-mid-length-16-rifle-prod81838.aspx?avs%7cManufacturer_1=AERO+PRECISION
Lend him the money and have him buy a Colt M4/6920, NOW.Best advice.
not too far from budget:
http://www.mrgundealer.com/product.colt-le6920-oem1-rifle-556-oem1-le-6920-oem-1-098289020246-75-1047
^^^Now you just complicated things.^^^
not too far from budget:
http://www.mrgundealer.com/product.colt-le6920-oem1-rifle-556-oem1-le-6920-oem-1-098289020246-75-1047
Not a Colt fan boy by any means (not a Colt hater, either), but at that price it's a great deal.
Colt 6720 or Colt 6920. Grant (G and R tactical) recently got more 6720's in stock @ around 799.00 a pop. If it were me, id go that route.
At $799 I would do that but they're $899 now.
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NWcityguy2
10-13-16, 11:35
It's beyond me why people can't read a price tag if it's attached to a Colt.
It's beyond me why people can't read a price tag if it's attached to a Colt.It's not that Colt recommenders can't read price tags, it's that Colt is the closest to the set price range that also -- in the estimation of many -- meets OP's son's intended use: home defense. It's a polite lead in what most here deem a better direction if doable, with nods to the budget stuff if there's absolutely no other way (though there usually is).
NWcityguy2
10-13-16, 23:13
It's not that Colt recommenders can't read price tags, it's that Colt is the closest to the set price range that also -- in the estimation of many -- meets OP's son's intended use: home defense. It's a polite lead in what most here deem a better direction if doable, with nods to the budget stuff if there's absolutely no other way (though there usually is).
First off, I did read what you wrote before you edited your comments. Trust me, it's possible on most days.
As far as home defense, you're going to have to spell out why you are interpreting how HD is so taxing on the firearm itself. The gun is stored in an ideal state, or at least is 100% capable of being stored as such. It's clean, lubed and kept out of the elements. It (realistically) is going to be called upon to shoot a small amount of brass cased, 223 pressure ammo. The distances involved render any accuracy difference between different guns moot. Any 5 to 10 rounds it shoots at the range without malfunctioning represents a HD situation. HD is stressful, I know because I've pulled my gun on people during a robbery, as well as many times on duty as a LEO and as recently as this week, but the stress is on the person, not the gun.
I shoot competition and host outlaw multi-gun matches through the IDPA club. I understand that getting a gun to do certain things requires $$$ sometimes, probably better than you. But short range, low round count shooting isn't one of them.
The reason to avoid budget builds imo is for reliability, not durability. To an experienced person, it probably won't matter as much as they will know how to inspect.
But for a novice, when they load up the gun at night, will they notice the loose castle nut? Will the gun fail after the first shot due to unseen issues?
Realistically, it will probably never matter. But a lot if us find it hard to grasp the concept that someone has $600 to spend, but $300 more is too much for something that will last a lifetime.
It happens, I've been there, but more times than not, it's just an arbitrary number people throw out there cause they can't see the difference. We are pushing them get the better product because we do know. I think if people explain the situation better, people here tend to lay off a bit, if they truly can't swing it.
First off, I did read what you wrote before you edited your comments. Trust me, it's possible on most days.
As far as home defense, you're going to have to spell out why you are interpreting how HD is so taxing on the firearm itself. The gun is stored in an ideal state, or at least is 100% capable of being stored as such. It's clean, lubed and kept out of the elements. It (realistically) is going to be called upon to shoot a small amount of brass cased, 223 pressure ammo. The distances involved render any accuracy difference between different guns moot. Any 5 to 10 rounds it shoots at the range without malfunctioning represents a HD situation. HD is stressful, I know because I've pulled my gun on people during a robbery, as well as many times on duty as a LEO and as recently as this week, but the stress is on the person, not the gun.
I shoot competition and host outlaw multi-gun matches through the IDPA club. I understand that getting a gun to do certain things requires $$$ sometimes, probably better than you. But short range, low round count shooting isn't one of them.Indeed I removed my first comment -- two days ago (when I first checked in relation to this thread) it applied, you couldn't get a PSA upper and lower within OP's price range and it was silly for you to suggest PSA on the one hand while admonishing others for making out of price range suggestions for other brands. Yesterday, checking again I saw PSA put sale prices on a couple of their products and one could get a rifle within OP's budget. Seemed perfectly appropriate of me, therefore, to edit the original statement.
There's isn't much point re-litigating differences of opinion stated at length in other recent threads. The bottom line is yes, of course a hobby grade rifle will likely do the job if needed in the unlikely event of home defense.
Likely doesn't suit me.
I don't make choices based on a strawman argument like yours that it's about the "taxing" nature of HD use; I base it on the simple bet that if it's all on the line, for a few hundred dollars more it's worth it to have a rifle with a demonstrably superior track record of build quality and control, components used, and fielded use.
The argument that because for most people armed self-defense is so uncommon, and if it does occur, so brief, that iffier products will do is to me ass backwards based purely on the wisdom of leaving as few things to chance as possible, particularly when the price difference is so small.
With all these gut-check moments you seem to be having, the sidearm you were pulling was...a Hi-Point? A Taurus?
If not, why not? They're built "good enough". You save a couple hundred. They generally go bang. Generally.
NWcityguy2
10-14-16, 14:01
I actually have a Taurus, and it's got about 10k rounds through it. I've won local competitions with it at my belt. I'm glad you brought that up. It will go bang every single time I pull the trigger. Every, single, time. What was your point again, that I don't use it at work? No, I don't. Plenty of Police in South America use them. I'd use it without question if it was on the approved list, chambered in 45 and didn't have an external hammer.
Look, you're one of the "good enough" crowd. Both the non-shooters who are for budget guns, and the non-shooters who argue against them are just two sides of the same coin. I talk real world experience, you talk internal reasoning and logic. I state the real world facts of HD encounters, you make up your own definition of how a gun you don't own performs, and then base your argument off it like it is fact. That's just how these conversations go, until they get locked just like several of the other threads you have involved yourself in.
I'll tell you what. Don't generalize the difference between the guns in question. Do something (you yourself) special with your Colt, and I'll see if I can't do it with my PSA Freedom. And if I can't do it, then I'll know the difference between to two.
I actually have a Taurus, and it's got about 10k rounds through it. I've won local competitions with it at my belt. I'm glad you brought that up. It will go bang every single time I pull the trigger. Every, single, time. What was your point again, that I don't use it at work? No, I don't. Plenty of Police in South America use them. I'd use it without question if it was on the approved list, chambered in 45 and didn't have an external hammer.
Look, you're one of the "good enough" crowd. Both the non-shooters who are for budget guns, and the non-shooters who argue against them are just two sides of the same coin. I talk real world experience, you talk internal reasoning and logic. I state the real world facts of HD encounters, you make up your own definition of how a gun you don't own performs, and then base your argument off it like it is fact. That's just how these conversations go, until they get locked just like several of the other threads you have involved yourself in.
I'll tell you what. Don't generalize the difference between the guns in question. Do something (you yourself) special with your Colt, and I'll see if I can't do it with my PSA Freedom. And if I can't do it, then I'll know the difference between to two.Single data points impress you. Fine. They don't impress me and I don't induce from them. Apparently anyone disagreeing with you on this subject isn't a shooter; based on that assertion I'm unsurprised you take exception to internal reasoning and logic. The locked threads I involved myself in you did too. ;)
We're all adults. You'll roll your way and I'll roll mine. The OP has gotten food for thought and they'll make their call. Can't be sure what precisely you mean by "special", but it's an apt term.
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