Why are JP/VTAC handguards more common with 3 gun rifles?

[johnson]

I rarely see them on a fighting carbine.

[glockshooter]

The vtac is used so much because it is a quality free floated forearm. You also have to realize that a quad railed forearm is generally not necessary for a 3un match. You really dont need to mount anything on the rail of a forearm for 3gun except possibly a JP short range sight which mount at an angle on the forearm. The vtac has mounting option at 45 degrees if you chose to use a JP sight.

Matt

[John Hearne]

I think that a real good question. I think that people buy what they want and not what they need, or more importantly, what looks cool.

If you look at rail systems that most folks have installed, very little of the real estate is holding anything. (Military operators are an obvious exception to this) I've been giving serious consideration to a VTAC system on my next upper which I want to be as light as possible. The only argument I have against the VTAC is that the Daniel Defense Lite system weighs even less.

[Palmguy]

I've wondered that myself...I had the VTAC on my .22LR upper and thought it was awesome, including the small rail segments that could be placed where needed.

[Robb Jensen]

I rarely see them on a fighting carbine.

Mostly because they are low-priced. Competitive shooters are typically a very thrifty bunch. Other tubes that are popular in 3gun are the carbon fiber Clark tube ($100) and the DPMS aluminum tube ($55).
A rifle length (12") JP/VTAC FF tube is $150 where most top of the line rifle length 12" rails are typically double that (or more). The JP does a good job for what it is. It's not really made for holding all kinds of stuff like a light and a bipod, and a PEQ2 and a vertical grip, with all that mounted the tube could very likely shear off the mounting screws. The tube is held to the barrel nut flange by several small screws. I use red loc-tite mine on and all I have mounted on my tube is the JP close range iron sights, with blue loc-tite I had it loosen once.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/3gunrifle1.jpg

[johnson]

It's not really made for holding all kinds of stuff like a light and a bipod, and a PEQ2 and a vertical grip, with all that mounted the tube could very likely shear off the mounting screws. The tube is held to the barrel nut flange by several small screws. I use red loc-tite mine on and all I have mounted on my tube is the JP close range iron sights, with blue loc-tite I had it loosen once.

I understand but if you look in the picture thread in the custom build forum, the majority of the rifles posted have quad rails only to be covered up with rail covers with a light and VFG at most. Are they spending 2x the cost on the rail just for looks?

[novashooter]

I personally know of 4 guys (including myself) that when we first started shooting 3G matches we bought the Tacti-Cool rails. Realizing I didnt need it I sold it and bought a JP.

The accuracy is excellent and the tube does not get caught up on props during a match.

[Robb Jensen]

I understand but if you look in the picture thread in the custom build forum, the majority of the rifles posted have quad rails only to be covered up with rail covers with a light and VFG at most. Are they spending 2x the cost on the rail just for looks?

Yes.
Nothing wrong with that. Needs and wants are quite different.
In the competition world some people like looks, some people like performance and some people (includes me) like both. (yeah I'm a little Gucci'fied ;) )
In the 'tactical' world the guys who are the real trigger pullers typically have guns that look like ass. Look at some pics of KevinBs' (https://www.m4carbine.net/member.php?u=550) and Simplydynamics' (https://www.m4carbine.net/member.php?u=570) guns that they use or used overseas. To them (and for good reason) those guns have to work, looks are way down on the list of priorities. So really beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....

[USMC03]

I understand but if you look in the picture thread in the custom build forum, the majority of the rifles posted have quad rails only to be covered up with rail covers with a light and VFG at most. Are they spending 2x the cost on the rail just for looks?

I have run a VTAC / JP Ent. handguard in years past. I prefer a rail system for a couple reasons.

I run my work gun (SWAT) in a different configuration than what I run in competition. A rail system gives me the ability to configure the gun the way I want. If I'm not using the rail, I can just cover it with a rail pannel.

From my experience the other advantage to a rail system and rail covers is it helps with heat. In the summer months when the temp is already over 100 degrees, if you go through a course of fire where you are expending 100 - 200 rounds within 6 - 8 minutes, the VTAC handguards become extreemly hot. I have seen a few guys wear gloves on their support hand due to the heat from the VTAC.

Pics from a match in July......And this is with a PRI Carbon Fiber handguard (not aluminum like the VTAC):

Early in the match ........ no glove:
http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_8893_img.jpg

As the day got hotter and so did the guns (from firing several stages) Zak dons a glove on his support hand:
http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9105_img.jpg


Me shooting on the same stage (notice the white barrel) with a LaRue rail system and Tango Down rail pannels (no glove, no problem with heat):
http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9051_img.jpg

When using a rail system and rail pannels (ie. Magpul XT or XTM, Tango Down rail pannels, etc.) I have never had an issue with heat. The handguard has never gotten to the point to where it was even slightly uncomfortalbe to hold with bare hands.



I agree with gotM4's observation that most 3 gunners and competition shooters are generally a thrifty bunch.


My opinion is use what works best for you. I have used carbon fiber and aluminum handguards in the past and my personal preference based on my experience is a free floated railed handguard with plastic rail pannels.



**************************************************************


Other reasons I think that the VTAC / JP handguard is so popular with competition shooters is because JP Ent is very supportive of competitive shooting and many competitive shooters recognize that and choose to spend their money on companies that support the sport. The JP handguard has been around (in competition circles) for quite some time, since the 90's at least.

Also consider that each group of shooters (3 gunners, tactical shooters, etc) all have the own different mindsets as to what gear and techniques are good to go and what is junk. For example, a majority of tactical shooters see a benefit in vertical foregrips. Most competition shooters think vertical foregrips are silly and see no utility in them. There are a lot of products that competition shooters use that tactical shooters think are silly.




Just my .02



S/F,
Jeff

[johnson601]

[QUOTE=gotm4;217312]Mostly because they are low-priced. Competitive shooters are typically a very thrifty bunch. Other tubes that are popular in 3gun are the carbon fiber Clark tube ($100) and the DPMS aluminum tube ($55).
A rifle length (12") JP/VTAC FF tube is $150 where most top of the line rifle length 12" rails are typically double that (or more). The JP does a good job for what it is. It's not really made for holding all kinds of stuff like a light and a bipod, and a PEQ2 and a vertical grip, with all that mounted the tube could very likely shear off the mounting screws. The tube is held to the barrel nut flange by several small screws. I use red loc-tite mine on and all I have mounted on my tube is the JP close range iron sights, with blue loc-tite I had it loosen once.


I am looking at using JP/VTAC for a coyote calling gun (not to replace my home defense guns). Will mounting only a bipod effect the mounting screws?

[Robb Jensen]

I am looking at using JP/VTAC for a coyote calling gun (not to replace my home defense guns). Will mounting only a bipod effect the mounting screws?

Just red loc-tite them and it'll be fine.

[John Hearne]

I'm not sure whether to post this here or in Techincal but I'll start here.

What's the skinny on the PRI foreends. I know that Sully uses them on his Grail builds so I'm assuming they're GTG. I'm curious about their weight versus the other options out there. I'd also like to know how easy it is to reconfigure where the rail sections lies on the foreend.

I'm mentally building my next upper for my patrol gun and I'm looking to minimize weight. All I want on my fore-end is a flashlight as I'll keep the FSB on the barrel.

I have a nice, Noveske barreled upper that will become my competition gun so the new upper shouldn't have a lot of rounds through it outside of an occassional class.

[rob_s]

You might be surprised what some rails weigh. Some so called "lightweight" weigh more than the competitions standard rail.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsFnUZMkZNF2DQ

IIRC, the PRI rails were actually pretty heavy because of the barrel nut, but that's been quite a while since I looked at them.

[Nick S]

The PRI tube has an aluminum barrel nut. The older ones were steel. The published weights are a little deceiving as they usually include the rails on the GEN III tube.

There is a competition tube that is available that has no rails and an aluminum nut. I think the total weight is around 10.3 oz. I have one on my rifle and really like it.

Nick

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

It would be interesting to see if you stripped the paint off of the inside of the tube it that low E surface would keep it from getting hot from the heat radiated from the barrel. Either that or low profile plastic pads to fit in the slots.

[Robb Jensen]

I'm not sure whether to post this here or in Techincal but I'll start here.

What's the skinny on the PRI foreends. I know that Sully uses them on his Grail builds so I'm assuming they're GTG. I'm curious about their weight versus the other options out there. I'd also like to know how easy it is to reconfigure where the rail sections lies on the foreend.



PRI makes excellent FF tubes but even their low priced one is $100 more than the JP tube (retail price is $254 on the economy PRI tube), the regular ones retail for $330 (more than double the price of a JP) they are 5oz lighter but for 3gunners who typically are shooting 8-12lb rifles, 5oz really isn't worth twice the price.

Something I have noticed with my JP tube is that after finishing it in tan Norrells I noticed that it doesn't nearly get as hot. I don't know if it's not absorbing the sunlight and the radiated heat from the barrel and gas block or what but the lighter color seemed to help a lot. Rarely do I have to wear a glove when shooting rifle.

USMC03 is 100% correct in that 3gunners and other competitive shooters do very much 'support the sport' and it's a pretty common saying in competition.
Without supporters their wouldn't be the very nice prize tables that draw large numbers of shooters to big matches and even though the matches are still fun without prizes, the prizes are like an added bonus. Too see who sponsors USPSA go to www.uspsa.org and look down the left side of the screen and click 'sponsors'. Those are just the bigger sponsors, many other companies not mentioned there who also sponsor USPSA and other 3gun include DPMS, Sabre Defence, CMMG, Brownells, and BlackwaterUSA and most people here have heard of those. With that said if you haven't tried 'running & gunning' you don't know what your missing, it is a ton of fun!

[LonghunterCO]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but since we are sharing some options other than the JP. I have been using a hiperform on my longwalk/truck gun AR. I really like it.
http://www.hiperform.com/hand-guards.htm




-rob_s another great chart.

[USMC03]

Something I have noticed with my JP tube is that after finishing it in tan Norrells I noticed that it doesn't nearly get as hot. I don't know if it's not absorbing the sunlight and the radiated heat from the barrel and gas block or what but the lighter color seemed to help a lot. Rarely do I have to wear a glove when shooting rifle.


gotm4,

I have noticed the same thing (black vs. tan / green). I have been at matches / classes where they had gun racks that were out in the hot sun. On a hot summer day, often times the barrel or aluminum handguard would be hot to the touch (all black gun).

Due to this experience, most of my competition guns have FDE or Foliage Green furniture on them. Black plastic gets noticeably hotter (than tan or green) after it's been in the sun for a short period of time (side note: I live in a high mountain desert, the avererage temp from late May through early Sept is 100 - 110 degrees).

Ambient temp + hot summer sun + rate of fire + color of the gun, all play a factor into how hot a gun get's and how long it takes too cool off. Note that in the pic above Zak is shooting a PRI carbon fiber tube that has been painted tan / green, yet due to ambient temp + hot summer sun + rate of fire, the fore end gets hot enough that Zak needs to wear a glove.

The ambient temp at this match was 105 - 110 degrees, the summer sun was not helping matters, and the rate of fire in these run and gun matches is fairly high (50 - 150 rounds per stage (x3 stages) ...... depending on how good you are and how many rounds you want to spend on those targets that are giving you a problem).

All of these factors come into play. Painting the gun a nuetral color can go a long way in managing the heat (start a stage with a gun that is cooler, it will take longer for it to heat up to the point where it's "hot to the touch"). I have noticed in the fall / winter months, heat has never been a problem with PRI or JTAC handguards.




I've always like that gun, by the way :D



S/F,
Jeff

[JWNathan]

Though I dont 3 gun(yet)I have a Vtac on one of my ARs and really like it, but the heat can be a PITA. I think the most shooting I've done with it is around 4 rounds over several hours and that thing got wayyy to hot to touch with out gloves. Heck I ran one because it looks cool!
-Jesse