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Slater
09-10-08, 14:15
Looking at the myriad of US Govt. agencies that employ handgun-armed personnel/agents (FBI, Border Patrol, US Marshals, TSA, Bureau Of Prisons, and no doubt scores of others), is there any one brand/manufacturer that predominates or is it just a patchwork of Glocks, SIG's, S&W's, Berettas, etc.?

ToddG
09-10-08, 14:34
The popularity game will vary a bit depending on whether you're talking number of guns in service vs. number of agencies, whether you include all the OIGs and small agencies (I once sold a federal agency all four of their pistols :cool:), whether you count authorized-but-not-issued guns, etc.

By pure quantity, it's fairly evenly split between Glock, SIG, and HK. However, almost all of HK's guns are in the hands of CBP ... they have very little market penetration beyond that agency, at least right now.

Glock and SIG both have some big agencies and many little agencies. SIG probably has Glock beat in terms of number of agencies issuing (since so many of the OIGs and small agencies are run by retired USSS guys, who tend to choose SIGs for their agencies). SIG also probably has Glock beat in terms of number of pistols, especially if you count USCG (which is part of DHS and has over 15,000 SIGs).

Of course, you also have agencies like DOE (which has a hodge podge of different guns in different locations), Bureau of Prisons (ditto), and Federal Reserve Bank (ditto).

It's also important to understand why Glock, HK, and SIG are so predominant. Currently, all three have existing open contracts (Glock with US Capitol Police, the other two with ICE). So a government agency can buy a certain models of Glocks, HKs, or SIGs without going to a competitive procurement ... they just buy off the contract and don't have to justify their choice beyond that. For example, when FBI's contract with Glock ran out, FBI didn't even bother to re-compete it. They just buy off the Capitol Police contract.

Slater
09-10-08, 14:59
Do you see S&W's M&P series making any inroads into this market?

cathellsk
09-10-08, 15:33
In the BOP Rugers dominate with some Berettas too. Most recent contract was with Ruger again. There are also Glocks, SIGs, Berettas, and S&Ws used by SORT.

ToddG
09-10-08, 20:10
Do you see S&W's M&P series making any inroads into this market?

Yes, but it's a tough sell in no small part because of the aforementioned contract issue. Agency wants .40-cal Glocks, they just buy them. Agency wants an M&P, it has to go through the entire public solicitation process. That's expensive, time consuming, and (at least in theory) could result in the agency getting a gun other than the one it wants.

The FRB Board of Governors was the first federal agency to adopt the M&P, and I believe at least one of the banks has bought them, too. BEP just switched to them. Part of DOE is probably getting M&P45's soon.

One large agency is on the cusp of approving the M&P as a personally owned on- and off-duty weapon, but budget issues have held up testing.

At least two other agencies are informally testing the gun, but any switch to the M&P would have to happen as part of a formal procurement which means fair & open competition.

HighSpeedDreams
09-10-08, 20:43
Is also utilizing HK's (P2000).

I don't know if you were including them under CBP (which they technically are now) when you mentioned it.

Sidewinder6
09-10-08, 21:01
Todd has good info on the procurement process. Also, there are 64 Federal LE agencies give or take. There are always going t be pockets of any organization that needs something different. It is sort of like being in the kitchen cabinet business as long as there are women.

John Hearne
09-11-08, 16:03
It would be a mistake to think that Federal agencies are a the leading edge of much in weapons selection. If you look at the issue historically, the Feds were the last folks to adapt the Glock and that happened only after the FBI made it "ok." You see so many Sigs in Federal service because they offered the DA/SA design which everyone thought was "safer."

If you look at my agency, we originally selected the Glock as a duty weapon. We went to far as to issue them to a Park and check public opinion to make sure it didn't upset them that we were carrying semi-autos. (I'm not making this up)

When it came time to buy the pistols, Sturm Ruger protested and argued that there had not been a competitive contract issued for the purchase and that they wanted a shot at it. The allocation to buy all of the semi-auto pistols was set to expire on September 30 with the start of a new fiscal year.

In a "last ditch" to make sure we got semi-autos, the decision was made to piggyback off of the DEA contract, bypassing the need for an open competition. Sigs had been tested earlier in a semi-formal process and had been considered "ok" but with the Glock being preferred.

The only "progressive" adaption of any firearms platform I've seen is the Secret Service's selction of the FN-90. I was told that was a very unpopular decision but one that proceeded because a high-level decision maker thought the gun was cool. I don't know of any other Federal agencies that issue or use the FN-90.

Personally, I'd love to see the M&P get a foothold in the Federal market. As a "system" of duty pistol, it is a great design. I wish they'd at least allow the private purchase, I'd ditch my Sig in a heart beat.

ToddG
09-16-08, 09:06
It would be a mistake to think that Federal agencies are a the leading edge of much in weapons selection.

While I understand what you're saying, I'd have to disagree a bit. You're painting with too broad a brush. Fed LE, like state and local LE, varies a lot from agency to agency. Some are extremely progressive, some are stuck so far back in time it's a wonder they aren't using cap & ball revolvers.

The SIG's popularity wasn't based on safety. It was based on the fact that, 20 years ago, it was by far the highest quality mass produced gun on the market. Simple parts interchangeability was unheard of before the P220. From an agency standpoint, that made it much easier to maintain and repair a large fleet of guns. No fitting, no machine work, just take the broken frazenstat out and put a new frazenstat in.

While I think of Glock's design as more evolutionary than revolutionary, its impact on the handgun market -- and especially the LE market -- truly was revolutionary. The entire industry has changed the way it designs, builds, and sells its guns because of Glock.


I don't know of any other Federal agencies that issue or use the FN-90.

USSS isn't the only one.

DANGER CLOSE
09-16-08, 12:06
how long has the usms been using glocks for?

what did the fbi do to make it ok?

just wondering.

Iraqgunz
09-16-08, 12:15
Todd,

Just of curiousity (not trying to be a sniper) where did the USCG figure come from? When I left the USCG in Sep 2005 the transition had only been going a short while. since the USCG only has approx. 44K personnel in the active and reserve side of the house that number seems very high. Especially when you consider that in the USCG most personnel share a weapon because the CG has so few. For example when I was in the Gulf a 110' cutter did not have enough sidearms for all crewmembers. When I was in Guam we had 3 rifles, 3 shotguns and 12 pistols. Needless to say there were more than that aboard that cutter as well.


The popularity game will vary a bit depending on whether you're talking number of guns in service vs. number of agencies, whether you include all the OIGs and small agencies (I once sold a federal agency all four of their pistols :cool:), whether you count authorized-but-not-issued guns, etc.

By pure quantity, it's fairly evenly split between Glock, SIG, and HK. However, almost all of HK's guns are in the hands of CBP ... they have very little market penetration beyond that agency, at least right now.

Glock and SIG both have some big agencies and many little agencies. SIG probably has Glock beat in terms of number of agencies issuing (since so many of the OIGs and small agencies are run by retired USSS guys, who tend to choose SIGs for their agencies). SIG also probably has Glock beat in terms of number of pistols, especially if you count USCG (which is part of DHS and has over 15,000 SIGs).

Of course, you also have agencies like DOE (which has a hodge podge of different guns in different locations), Bureau of Prisons (ditto), and Federal Reserve Bank (ditto).

It's also important to understand why Glock, HK, and SIG are so predominant. Currently, all three have existing open contracts (Glock with US Capitol Police, the other two with ICE). So a government agency can buy a certain models of Glocks, HKs, or SIGs without going to a competitive procurement ... they just buy off the contract and don't have to justify their choice beyond that. For example, when FBI's contract with Glock ran out, FBI didn't even bother to re-compete it. They just buy off the Capitol Police contract.

Bigun
09-16-08, 14:48
VA Police issue the Beretta 92D and the new contract went out for SIG 229 9mm DAK trigger to replace them as we wear out the Beretta's and for expanding depts, since Clinton made it against the law for us to sell off our pistols we are going to have mixed issue untill none of the Beretta's are serviceable. There was also some talk of the P90 as a limited issue patrol carbine. But still nothing definate.

ToddG
09-16-08, 17:22
Just of curiousity (not trying to be a sniper) where did the USCG figure come from?

My 2004 and 2005 bonus checks. :cool:

Iraqgunz
09-16-08, 17:52
That surprises me. no shit. We were always short weapons and the fielding process seemed to be on a slow boat to China.


My 2004 and 2005 bonus checks. :cool:

ToddG
09-16-08, 18:11
I think that was part of the reason USCG was so involved in the DHS/ICE testing. They volunteered a bunch of guys to be proctors, babysitters, etc. for the test in Altoona. Some of the Chiefs were really involved and I used to speak to them on a weekly basis.

For whatever reason, USCG took delivery of all the guns before deploying them in large numbers. It took SIG more than a year to deliver them.

FWIW, USCG placed the very first order that came about from the ICE contracts. The moment the ink was dry, they said "we want 12,000 pistols." Then a little while later they said they needed 3,000 more.

d90king
09-16-08, 18:41
What's the story with the Springfield Pro? I thought the FBI also used them?

coltm4223
09-17-08, 10:03
A contingent of Fed Agents in the DOE haved issued the P220 since 1989 with quality concealment leather.

ToddG
09-18-08, 07:30
A contingent of Fed Agents in the DOE haved issued the P220 since 1989 with quality concealment leather.

Said contingent now planning to switch to the M&P45 ... :cool:

dwhitehorne
09-18-08, 09:34
We USPP got our P2000's from the Postal Service. Rumor was the Postal Inspectors bought P2000's to transition and got sued by Sig. Sig won and the Postal service had 100's of P2000's they were barred from using. We had just started to transition from P7's to the USP compact and bought the Postal Inspector weapons from them. Third had rumor from the firearms staff, but it is probably true since it is so typical of the USG

ToddG
09-18-08, 10:05
Close but not exactly.

USPS has its own policies regarding procurements since they are quasi-governmental.

Their policy says that if two items are close to identical (in terms of performance) during an evaluation, a US-made product gets a certain "price bonus" applied to the equation when they calculate best value. So in other words, if you bid $500 they based their decision as if it were costing $470 (but they still paid $500).

USPS evaluated a number of guns and came down to a near tie between the P2000 and the P229R. The P2000 scored higher on their tests, but by a fairly small amount (a few percentage points). The H&K was also bid at a cheaper price. So, USPS signed a contract with H&K, placed their order, and received their first shipment very quickly.

BUT, when you calculated the made-in-the-USA price adjustment, the SIG was "cheaper" even though it cost more actual dollars. SIG raised the issue and USPS voluntarily canceled their H&K contract, awarding a new contract to SIG. The 500 or so P2000's that USPS had already bought were sold (inter-agency) to the Park Police.

coltm4223
09-18-08, 15:53
Said contingent now planning to switch to the M&P45 ... :cool:



The fat lady hasn't sung that tune yet, test is scheduled for December. Kind of sad cause its been my issue gun since 91, but I'm also looking forward with an open mind to the test samples.