View Full Version : B&T APC 45 Review
I am NOT a happy camper. That, in short, is my summary of my entire experience with the B&T APC 45 and B&T USA thus far. Get comfortable, this is gonna be a long one.
Let me begin: 3 months ago I spoke with my friend who had just become a B&T distributor. He's an HK aficionado so I asked him if he knew where I could find an HK USC with the intent of doing a UMP conversion. A 45 acp pistol caliber carbine has always been an area in which I was interested but not one I had pursued very far. We talked about the UMP then the Kriss Vector and he point out the APC 45 as a solid alternative to sinking several thousand dollars into something I may or may not like in the end. He also added that he would sell it to me at dealer cost + any shipping costs. I went home, did my research and decided the APC 45 seemed like a better engineered product (there weren't then, nor are now any in depth, independent reviews of the APC 45). The straight forward design and simplicity of use and modification appealed to me right off the bat. So after thinking about it a few days, I stopped by and asked him to order me one. In total I ordered the APC, three 25 round mags, and a B&T stock all for less than the cost of most shops' retail price for the APC alone.
A week later he called me to say my order had come in and I could pick it up anytime. I came in the following day after work, picked up the APC and thanked him, assuring him I would know what I thought about it soon. I took the APC home, cleaned it, lubed it, loaded up the mags and let it sit till the next day when I would have time to shoot it. I took it to the range along with 400 rounds of quality range ammo, American Eagle, Winchester White box, Federal, and Remington UMC, all 230 grain FMJ, and fired the first shots through it. After approximately 12 rounds I had my first failure to eject. I dropped the mag, cleared the malfunction and continued on, 5 or 6 rounds later, another FTE. I shot the rest of the mag without issue. I gave the pistol the benefit of the doubt, the fit of every component on the APC is extremely tight so I figured a "breaking in period" might be required, however I generally don't subscribe to the "break in period" per se, I continued on. Next mag, FTE on the second round, 3 FTE's in a row after round 12, then finished up the mag without any issues. At this point I was a bit concerned but I inserted the next mag and shot all 24 rounds (yes, 24, the mags are supposed to hold 25, but there is no way in heaven or hell you'll fit in that 25th round) without any issues. Feeling relieved, I inserted the fourth and final mag, and right of the bat FTEs out the wazoo, rounds 2,3,5,12,13,15, and 20. At this point I was mildly pissed. I stepped off the line, and called my friend. He was concerned and apologetic, said he would text his contact at B&T and see what he had to say. I came back to the line, loaded up the 4 mags and began all over again. Everything was the same, except the mag that shot issue free at first also began to suffer from the notorious failures to eject.
After those 4 mags were empty, I glanced at my phone. My friend forwarded me a text from the B&T rep, he said that they have had reports of malfunctions caused by limp wresting the pistol creating a condition where bolt bounce could cause the pistol to jam. I responded that I would continue to shoot the pistol paying attention to my grip and eliminating any possible limp wrist situations. I shot another 2 mags with the same results. At this point I figured if I am limp wristing it I'll install a KAK shockwave brace I brought along to try out on the APC. Installing the Shockwave on the APC is a piece of cake, unscrew the hinge screw with a torx bit, remove the sling attachment screw from the end plate, screw in the Shockwave buffer tube and tighten the castle nut. With the Shockwave brace firmly installed I loaded up the four mags and shot the APC with the shockwave. The same malfunctions occurred and at roughly the same intervals. The usual pattern of malfunctions was during the first 3 rounds, then again in the middle of the mag (roughly rounds 10-15), with few occurring randomly in the final 10 rounds of a mag.
Here are an assortment of photos of the failures I was having, for your enjoyment:
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So there I was, 300 rounds fired, in excess of 35+ malfunctions (I stopped counting towards the end), and I didn't enjoy one minute of it. I saved the last 100 rounds, packed up and went home. I stopped by my friend's shop and let him know how it went and showed him numerous pictures of the malfunctions. He gave me the number for B&T USA and suggested I give them a call and explain in depth what was happening. I called, spoke with a friendly sounding guy named Tim and explained what was happening. It was pretty clear he didn't really believe there was anything wrong with the pistol, rather suggesting the limp wrist inducing bolt bounce theory. When I explained I installed the Shockwave and had the same issues, he didn't really register what could be going on. He suggested I email him the pictures of the malfunctions as well as detailed photos of the APC internals and requested I send it in for them to look at.
The next chance I had I sent it to their Florida address. After they had had it for a week, I hadn't heard anything, nor did my friend receive any contact. I called B&T USA numerous times that week and no one picked up the phone. I called again early the following week and a pleasant sounding lady named Jessica answered. I explained who I was and that I was trying to reach Tim concerning my APC. She said Tim was out of the country and wouldn't be back till later in the week, I thanked her, gave her my contact info and said goodbye. Another week went by without any contact and I called B&T USA. Jessica answered again and informed me Tim had test fired my APC that morning and that she will have him give me a call with the results. Ten minutes later I received a video text message of my APC firing 15 rounds flawlessly. I responded "Awesome" and asked what they fixed, he responded "nothing." We exchanged texts for a bit and I asked if it would be ok if we spoke. I gave him a call and we spoke for about 15 minutes. He said he and his colleagues had shot 150 rounds through it without incident. We continued to speak, he gave me his input, I gave him mine, all very friendly, and he said that B&T had suggested that maybe the chamber was rough causing issues with extraction. He asked me if he could polish the chamber and test fire it more. I agreed. The following week I called him on his cell and he said that he shot more ammo through it without incident and that perhaps the chamber was rough from the factory and that all the shooting I had done had polished it to the point that it was functioning correctly. I, extremely skeptical, said ok send it back to me.
2 days later I received my APC. The first thing I did was load up my 4 mags and head to the range. Nothing was different. The APC was continuing to malfunction at consistent intervals. I text him photos as well as videos of what was happening and he seemed genuinely shocked. He saw me shooting it, saw everything that was happening, and what the APC was doing and said that he could offer me a refund. We spoke further on the phone and he asked if I tried the same ammo he was shooting during his test firing (S&B 45 230 FMJ) I said no, but I have some at home and I'll give that a try if he wants. I packed up the APC with 50 rounds of S&B ammo and headed to range. I shot 24 rounds filming everything and sent him the video. He was shocked yet again and offered me a replacement APC. I agreed and had my friend ship the APC back to Tim. My friend shipped it to Tim the following day and provided me the tracking info. That was 3 weeks ago and I haven't heard anything since. I texted Tim only one time during these three weeks and I didn't receive a response.
Now I know every company puts out a lemon from time to time and I doubt my replacement APC will suffer the same malfunctions this one has. While their customer service approach has been highly personal, calling me on my cell phone, the B&T rep disclosing his cell phone to me, and texting back and forth, it has been a difficult process thus far.
So, in conclusion, I've owned the APC 45 for approximately 2 months, only had it in my hands for 6 days, shot approximately 450 unenjoyable rounds, suffered God only knows how many malfunctions, and have been promised a new new one but have not heard or seen anything about it for 3 weeks. To say that I am aggravated is an understatement. I know a lot of people have had success with the APC 9 and other B&T products, but my experience with the APC 45 and B&T USA is not nearly the joy I had in mind when I gave my friend and dealer a rather large wad of cash.
Furbyballer
10-19-16, 07:41
Damn...Well good luck getting this all resolved. I think I would have just taken the refund and moved on after that experience. If you don't mind, please keep us updated on the process and how the replacement performs.
I certainly will update this when I receive the replacement. My intention is not to bad mouth B&T, merely let everyone know that despite all the new products B&T has been releasing and all the positive attention they've received, they seem to suffer from faults that many new, smaller businesses suffer from. As far as my experience is concerned, they don't seem to have a "customer service" department per se or a repair department for faulty firearms. As far as I know the only person who has looked at my APC has been has been the sales rep, Tim (Edit: 11/2: I have since learned that Tim is the CEO of B&T USA and is a certified armorer in B&T products).
Regardless, one of my close friends bought a Kimber Micro 380. His experience with the malfunctioning micro mirrors mine to a T. The only difference thus far, is that the replacement micro Kimber sent him also malfunctioned! He sold it at a loss and bought a Sig.
KalashniKEV
10-19-16, 08:48
That totally sucks. How do you screw up a dumb blowback gun?
You could have picked up an MPA-10 for wayyyy less and had essentially the same thing- but it would run.
These Swiss TECs with extrusion type receivers and block bolts are essentially like if Rolex made a G-Shock and tried to sell it for $6K.
556BlackRifle
10-19-16, 10:50
Wow... Sorry to hear about that. I wonder if they found a design problem they didn't know about and that's why they haven't responded to you yet? Whatever the case may be, I hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction as soon as possible. I'll be watching for your update. Hopefully it will be a good one.
Wow... Sorry to hear about that. I wonder if they found a design problem they didn't know about and that's why they haven't responded to you yet? Whatever the case may be, I hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction as soon as possible. I'll be watching for your update. Hopefully it will be a good one.
Those were my thoughts also after I sent it back the first time. Something was obviously wrong with it, they realized the mistake and sent it back not admitting to the error. And now I'm thinking there's a definite possibility. I'll post whenever I hear anything.
That totally sucks. How do you screw up a dumb blowback gun?
You could have picked up an MPA-10 for wayyyy less and had essentially the same thing- but it would run.
These Swiss TECs with extrusion type receivers and block bolts are essentially like if Rolex made a G-Shock and tried to sell it for $6K.
My thoughts exactly. The APC series is unique, but it wouldn't be worth it in my eyes for the 9mm version. Now the 45 acp, that was the selling point.
I will definitely sit back and watch the developments. Thanks for the review.
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UPDATE: I just got off the phone with Tim. He's sending me a replacement 45 tomorrow. I should have it by friday or monday the latest depending on my friend's schedule.
UPDATE: I just got off the phone with Tim. He's sending me a replacement 45 tomorrow. I should have it by friday or monday the latest depending on my friend's schedule.
Put some rounds down range, and let us know.
Thanks
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Get your replacement yet?
Get your replacement yet?
Nope nothing. After Talking with Tim (the day after I posted my initial review) he said he would send it out right away. Since then, I haven't received any info from him or his assistant, Jessica. I called my dealer/friend and he hasn't heard anything either. A month to get me a replacement on top of the weeks they had my faulty APC is unacceptable. This is pure speculation but I'm thinking they discovered some flaw with the APC 45 design and are working to fix it.
EDIT 11/2: I deleted this second part of this post. What I said was not accurate but I did not realize that at the time.
KalashniKEV
10-27-16, 16:30
Hell, Kimber's customer service beats the pants off anything B&T has been able to give me.
Maybe they're on vacation?
They have a labor law that mandates 5 weeks of vacation for workers under 20 and 4 weeks for workers over 20.
The same law also mandates no person ever do more than 45 hours or labor per week in general trades, and 50 in a few other special jobs.
According to a study by UBS, Swiss workers demand 2-3x more pay for the same work as workers in other European countries.
B&T need to fix themselves and find a new manufacturing location if they want to have a competitive offering.
EDIT 11/2: I am deleting this post because I spoke with Tim at B&T USA and he told me the steps he went through to work with my APC. My perspective was not universal and I misunderstood/did not realize what he was going through with my APC
I'm a new member and fellow APC45 owner. Did you send your magazines with your APC to B&T? I ask this because 1 of my 5 magazines seems faulty.
I fired 150 rounds of Aguila and Federal 230 grain fmj from 4 of my magazines but the fifth magazine produced FTF's after every round fired. I can fit 25 rounds in the other magazins without issue but the fifth is the hardest and the spring seems to bind.
Yours does sound like a different issue since you're having FTE's but thought I'd share my experience.
UPDATE:
On friday (10/28), I received the replacement APC 45. I also got a call from Tim asking if I'd shot it yet. I hadn't, so we talked about a few things including recommendations for ammo, how I should shoot it as a pistol, if my previous APC had been looked over by designers, etc. I ended the call hopeful and fairly optimistic. Later that afternoon I went to the range with 100 rounds of CIP spec ammo to evaluate the APC. I loaded up the mags and shot all 100 rounds. I had all the same failures I had before, including 2 failures to feed. Although, the malfunctions weren't as frequent as my previous APC, it was still doing it. I had roughy 12 malfunctions in 100 rounds.
I went home disappointed, broke it down, lubed it extremely well, installed the KAK shockwave brace and waited till the next morning. On saturday I went to the range with 200 rounds. I began shooting and as malfunctions started occurring I let my fellow shooters have a try. Everyone, with every mag, at inconsistent intervals produced the same malfunctions again, roughly 8 failures in 200 rounds. So it's not nearly as bad as my previous APC (35+ failures in the first 300 rounds) but no where near the performance of what should be expected of a $2,000 firearm. I called my dealer friend and we arranged to shoot it on wednesday, (11/2) today.
Well I cleaned and lubed it last night, met my friend this morning and shot 200 rounds. We had 9 malfunctions, (6 FTEs and 3 FTFeeds) between the both of us. I guess I'm used to being disappointed but he was EXTREMELY pissed off. I came home, made lunch and called Tim from B&T. He didn't pick up so I left a message. I hope he'll call me back soon. I have a strong suspicion I'll be getting a refund for the APC, mags and stock. But I highly doubt I'll get compensated for the hundreds I wasted in ammo.
There is one interesting thing I observed while cleaning this APC. When I had the bolt out of the gun, I inserted a live round under the extractor, against the bolt face. There is ZERO, i.e. absolutely none, extractor tension against the case. With the round on the bolt face and the rim under the extractor you can wobble the bolt ever so slightly and the round will just fall free. There is also a fair amount of play between the rim of the case and edges of the bolt face, so much so, that if you turn the bolt upside down, the round will just fall free. The edge of the extractor does engage the rim of the cartridge but doesn't impart any force against it. Now I have no experience with 45 acp sub gun bolts, but on the 9mm Scorpion and Sig MPX bolts I've handled, the 9mm cartridge is locked against the bolt face with significant extractor tension. I never checked the bolt face, extractor engagement on the previous APC but I would strongly suspect it had a similar issue.
UPDATE:
Ok two things to mention.
Tim called me, I will be receiving a full refund for the purchase price of the APC and mags. Good, got that squared away.
The next point: he saw this review on this site and felt that I had misrepresented their quality of customer service, drawing conclusions that were unwarranted. We spoke at length (>40 minutes) about this and there were things that were communicated unclearly and things I misunderstood. I acknowledge that in certain comments I made before in this thread, while accurately representing how I saw things at that time, were not the entire story about what was going on. He explained the efforts he went through to fix my issue that I did not know about. So yes, they are a small company here in the US but the quality of communication has been excellent. Yes, there were texts that went unanswered, but the fact that I was texting the CEO of a company (which I did not know at the time...I thought he was a sales rep) is remarkable. Nothing I posted was meant to be a personal attack against Tim or B&T USA. So I have updated and redacted certain comments I made that I think cast poor light on B&T USA in general and Tim in particular.
All in all I can say this, yes the APC let me down, however Tim at B&T USA has exerted his best efforts to make the situation right. While that was not the desired outcome I had in mind, it is satisfactory. So from my experience, if you have a B&T product and you have any issues, don't hesitate to give them a call.
^^^ [emoji23]
That sucks that the B&T didn't work out. Hopefully they can get it ironed out.
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Thanks for the updates
Sorry your APC45 troubles. I take it you're not going to be getting the APC9?
From reading this (and knowing how small B&T US is and the amount of travel Tim has to do), I think you received good CS and the full refund to boot.
To date, we have sold a considerable amount of B&T firearms (to include the APC45). We have ZERO issues, complaints or problems. So it is possible you simply got a lemon, though it is odd to me that the gun ran just fine for B&T.
C4
Sorry to hear the APC didn't work out but glad B&T USA is taking care of you. I'll add an update when I get a chance to shoot mine some more. I can say for sure that mine doesn't have the extractor tension issue yours has.
From reading this (and knowing how small B&T US is and the amount of travel Tim has to do), I think you received good CS and the full refund to boot.
To date, we have sold a considerable amount of B&T firearms (to include the APC45). We have ZERO issues, complaints or problems. So it is possible you simply got a lemon, though it is odd to me that the gun ran just fine for B&T.
C4
In retrospect the customer service was excellent. However at the time I saw things differently, but that perspective was colored by disappointment, skepticism, and frustration. Let me put it this way: their CS wasn't what I was expecting, that I think is a fair assessment. It wasn't like calling Springfield or Sig.
Regarding functionality, it stumps everyone all around. I have videos of before I sent it in. Tim sent me a video of them shooting it. Then I have a videos of shooting it right out of the box and the malfunctions I was having after it was returned. Same ammo, same everything. There were only two variables that I can tell, the shooter and how many rounds were in the mags. From the video he sent me, he only fired roughly 15 rounds on camera. I always shot it with full mags. That's not to say he didn't try with fully loaded mags, but I have many videos shooting in various ways, whereas I only saw the one video from Tim.
Thanks for the updates
Sorry your APC45 troubles. I take it you're not going to be getting the APC9?
Nah, we all know 45 is a man's caliber, and 9mm is a such a wimpy round…
But seriously, it was the 45 that was the selling point. I've wanted a 45 caliber carbine for some time.
hotrodder636
11-04-16, 09:11
I would be very interested to see and read additional reviews from other owners. I too am interested in a 45 platform such as the APC.
I would be very interested to see and read additional reviews from other owners. I too am interested in a 45 platform such as the APC.
Indeed, me too. Apparently there are a number of them out there based on my discussion with Tim and their sales, but despite that, there really aren't any other detailed end user reviews out there. If people are having success I'd like to know more than anyone.
^
Same
I can find a lot of reviews on the APC 9, but not so on the .45
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Rotor tuner
11-07-16, 15:28
I picked up an APC45 a couple weeks ago, Maybe I should do a little review on it so there is some more info out there.
^
Yep
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Indeed, me too. Apparently there are a number of them out there based on my discussion with Tim and their sales, but despite that, there really aren't any other detailed end user reviews out there. If people are having success I'd like to know more than anyone.
I am interested in a review as well. I actually contacted your friend the day you went out to try the replacement APC out and he was telling me the trouble you were having. Much like you I always wanted a .45 PCC but the UMP's are stupid money and the Vector is ugly. I am sorry to hear you had bad luck but am hoping others have luck. I really want this firearm.
Rotor tuner
11-07-16, 20:16
I am interested in a review as well. I actually contacted your friend the day you went out to try the replacement APC out and he was telling me the trouble you were having. Much like you I always wanted a .45 PCC but the UMP's are stupid money and the Vector is ugly. I am sorry to hear you had bad luck but am hoping others have luck. I really want this firearm.
I got mine a week or so ago. Have shot it once so far but am planning to go out and really put it through its paces this coming weekend. What kind of ammo did they recommend or what kind of ammo are people interested in shooting? I picked up some Winchester JHP and a box of Fedeal brass 230gr RN. Will see how it does with those. So far I have made both positive and negative observations but will save those for the write up.
I picked up an APC45 a couple weeks ago, Maybe I should do a little review on it so there is some more info out there.
Yeah, Please do!
I got mine a week or so ago. Have shot it once so far but am planning to go out and really put it through its paces this coming weekend. What kind of ammo did they recommend or what kind of ammo are people interested in shooting? Normally I reload my own, I have a bunch of 230gr plate extreme bullets loaded in 2x brass with WST powder. I picked up some Winchester JHP and a box of Fedeal brass 230gr RN. Will see how it does with those. So far I have made both positive and negative observations but will save those for the write up.
I don't own one yet, or any .45 firearms, so I can't answer the ammo question. Were you able to take the APC 45 out this weekend? You also mention you had some positives and some negatives, could you give a quick overview about what those were? I reached out to LWRC regarding their SMG 45 and it seems like that thing is no where near ready. The B&T is my only hope for a .45 carbine, so I am pulling for it haha. Thanks for taking the time to review the firearm, I appreciate it.
Rotor tuner
11-13-16, 19:27
jury is still out. Have to make some phone calls this week. Will keep you guys posted.
Talk to B&T about this gun. Apparently there is a spring tensioning issue with the mag springs (not the gun or the mag body itself). B&T is working on getting some new springs out (which will be free to everyone with a 45 Mag).
As I know more, I will keep everyone updated.
C4
Update: I received my refund today along with an Aimpoint T1 micro for my trouble. Tim originally offered to send me an Aimpoint with my replacement APC, but it wasn't included with my replacement. Regardless, Tim didn't have to send the Aimpoint and I told him as much when I last spoke to him asking for my refund, but it is a nice gesture and one I appreciate. And to go one step further, Tim also said if there was some fault discovered by B&T with the APC 45 then he would fix one of my APCs and send it to me free of charge.
So, in expectation of receiving my refund I bought a Kriss Vector SDP-SB and a Glock 21. The Glock has not yet arrived, but I received the Vector earlier this week. And aside from 2 malfunctions, in the first 100 rounds using the Kriss mag extensions, I've shot 898 rounds flawlessly. Aside from the layout of the controls, it's just as smooth and refined as the APC in my opinion.
Amd5007, it sounds like B&T took care of you all in all, but still sucks you had to go through all of that. Im not going to lie, the problems you had does not sound mag spring related to me, so I think Ill pass on APC45. You had said that there was zero tension between the bolt face and extractor... that isnt a mag spring. I just cant stomach the Kriss so I think my love afair with a .45 PCC with wither. Thanks for documenting your issues and thanks for the update.
david05111
11-28-16, 01:11
Interesting thread. Sounds like their CS is pretty solid.
If you're in firearms long enough, one of these situations will eventually happen to you. Its unfortunate, but it happens. Hell, I had it happen to me with Noveske.
Hope you find another solution to your itch for a .45 subgun. I've been looking into getting one for a while...I know it'll be a UMP
Interesting thread. Sounds like their CS is pretty solid.
If you're in firearms long enough, one of these situations will eventually happen to you. Its unfortunate, but it happens. Hell, I had it happen to me with Noveske.
Hope you find another solution to your itch for a .45 subgun. I've been looking into getting one for a while...I know it'll be a UMP
The APC45 is vastly superior to the UMP (FYI).
C4
david05111
11-28-16, 15:36
The APC45 is vastly superior to the UMP (FYI).
C4
Oh of that, I have no doubt. The Kriss is probably better too. And there's an argument to be made that even he grease gun is.
I just like the look of it. As a teenager, I wanted a UMP. Just one of those must-have guns for me, even if it's not the best in its class.
Oh of that, I have no doubt. The Kriss is probably better too. And there's an argument to be made that even he grease gun is.
I just like the look of it. As a teenager, I wanted a UMP. Just one of those must-have guns for me, even if it's not the best in its class.
Having shot a USC/UMP conversion, the APC45, and the Vector. I can say that the UMP clone definitely has more "thump" to the recoil compared to the APC and the Vector. The APC has a better feel to the controls and layout. However the Vector has the best recoil control in my opinion. Besides that, the UMP and the Vector work.
david05111
11-29-16, 14:26
Having shot a USC/UMP conversion, the APC45, and the Vector. I can say that the UMP clone definitely has more "thump" to the recoil compared to the APC and the Vector. The APC has a better feel to the controls and layout. However the Vector has the best recoil control in my opinion. Besides that, the UMP and the Vector work.
Having shot both the Vector and the UMP, I'd tend to concur with your assessment. I'm definitely looking forward to the opportunity to shoot a B&T at some point.
Having shot a USC/UMP conversion, the APC45, and the Vector. I can say that the UMP clone definitely has more "thump" to the recoil compared to the APC and the Vector. The APC has a better feel to the controls and layout. However the Vector has the best recoil control in my opinion. Besides that, the UMP and the Vector work.
The APC45 runs as well. It was strictly a mag spring tension issue (which has been taken care of).
C4
Having shot a USC/UMP conversion, the APC45, and the Vector. I can say that the UMP clone definitely has more "thump" to the recoil compared to the APC and the Vector. The APC has a better feel to the controls and layout. However the Vector has the best recoil control in my opinion. Besides that, the UMP and the Vector work.
Do you like your Kriss? I never had the chance to hold one, they just seem bulky and not very ergonomic. It is certainly the cheapest option of the three.
Do you like your Kriss? I never had the chance to hold one, they just seem bulky and not very ergonomic. It is certainly the cheapest option of the three.
It is somewhat bulky. As to ergonomics, it's a very ergonomic platform. One thing to note, looking at it in pictures it seems to be a rather large design (at least to me), but once you get it in your hands it's actually very compact. Everything is laid out well and well executed.
When I received it I lubed and cleaned it initially and have shot 2,000 rounds through it (500 factory rounds and 1,500 of my reloads). Aside from the few malfunctions initially with the Kriss extensions it has been problem free with all my mags and without additional lube and without cleaning. It does well in drills and is an easy platform to adapt to. Additionally, I received my Glock 21 last wednesday and have 500 flawless rounds through that. I honestly couldn't be happier. Two guns for the price of one...literally.
Nightvisionary
12-04-16, 06:12
If the CEO is handling customer service issues that is a problem. If a busy CEO is the only one handling customer service issues that is a much bigger problem.
If the CEO is handling customer service issues that is a problem. If a busy CEO is the only one handling customer service issues that is a much bigger problem.
No, not really. The US branch of B&T is small. He is also the most qualified person to trouble shoot any problems.
We have 7 employees. When something needs fixed and my employees cannot figure it out, the CEO (me) has to fix it.
C4
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Nightvisionary
12-04-16, 19:36
No, not really. The US branch of B&T is small. He is also the most qualified person to trouble shoot any problems.
We have 7 employees. When something needs fixed and my employees cannot figure it out, the CEO (me) has to fix it.
C4
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As a consumer I can tell you for a fact that it is a problem. If I spend thousands of dollars on a product and it is defective I should not have to play phone tag or wait weeks to get it resolved. Companies that place a high priority on customer service should always have a competent representative available to resolve issues during normal business hours. That is just good business. I understand that realistically is not always possible as a new business gets off the ground but that should be the goal.
NewWaveGuy
12-04-16, 20:25
As a consumer I can tell you for a fact that it is a problem. If I spend thousands of dollars on a product and it is defective I should not have to play phone tag or wait weeks to get it resolved. Companies that place a high priority on customer service should always have a competent representative available to resolve issues during normal business hours. That is just good business. I understand that realistically is not always possible as a new business gets off the ground but that should be the goal.
You are absolutely correct.
As a consumer I can tell you for a fact that it is a problem. If I spend thousands of dollars on a product and it is defective I should not have to play phone tag or wait weeks to get it resolved. Companies that place a high priority on customer service should always have a competent representative available to resolve issues during normal business hours. That is just good business. I understand that realistically is not always possible as a new business gets off the ground but that should be the goal.
I know patience isn't a virtue for Americans any more, but it is pretty normal to wait weeks when you send a problem gun back to companies like Glock, SIG, Colt, etc.
The consumer is also welcome to call the B&T directly if the US option is unavailable.
C4
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As a consumer I can tell you for a fact that it is a problem. If I spend thousands of dollars on a product and it is defective I should not have to play phone tag or wait weeks to get it resolved. Companies that place a high priority on customer service should always have a competent representative available to resolve issues during normal business hours. That is just good business. I understand that realistically is not always possible as a new business gets off the ground but that should be the goal.
I agree with you. I hope, as their business increases here in the US, they will be adding a dedicated CS person to their staff. They better if the negative reviews I've heard of the KH9 are true...
I know patience isn't a virtue for Americans any more, but it is pretty normal to wait weeks when you send a problem gun back to companies like Glock, SIG, Colt, etc.
The consumer is also welcome to call the B&T directly if the US option is unavailable.
C4
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Grant, you have to admit, waiting a couple weeks for a repaired gun is one thing. But playing phone tag trying to catch a guy in between meetings and flying around the country to hammer out details about suppressor production is another.
Grant, you have to admit, waiting a couple weeks for a repaired gun is one thing. But playing phone tag trying to catch a guy in between meetings and flying around the country to hammer out details about suppressor production is another.
I do t think so. Then again, I have taken weeks to resolve a problem with a customer before.
If I were you, I don't think I would complain about a single thing (free Aimpoint and were refunded MORE than you paid for the gun).
C4
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I do t think so. Then again, I have taken weeks to resolve a problem with a customer before.
If I were you, I don't think I would complain about a single thing (free Aimpoint and were refunded MORE than you paid for the gun).
C4
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I was refunded exactly what was on the invoice nothing MORE than I paid. Yes, I did get an aimpoint out of it but I spent the cost of an aimpoint in all the ammo I bought for the two faulty APCs. So I broke even in the deal.
I'm not complaining now. And where my previous complaints were based on misunderstandings I freely edited or redacted what I wrote. I was able to walk away from this clean. I realize not many people are so lucky.
I was refunded exactly what was on the invoice nothing MORE than I paid. Yes, I did get an aimpoint out of it but I spent the cost of an aimpoint in all the ammo I bought for the two faulty APCs. So I broke even in the deal.
I'm not complaining now. And where my previous complaints were based on misunderstandings I freely edited or redacted what I wrote. I was able to walk away from this clean. I realize not many people are so lucky.
So you didn't get any discounts from your dealer (friend) on the gun? Ok, sure.
Shooting a gun (even if it malfunctions) isn't the same as throwing ammo in the trash. So no, a free Aimpoint isn't breaking even. No other gun company has EVER done anything like that in all my years I have been on gun forums and as an FFL.
C4
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So you didn't get any discounts from your dealer (friend) on the gun? Ok, sure.
Shooting a gun (even if it malfunctions) isn't the same as throwing ammo in the trash. So no, a free Aimpoint isn't breaking even. No other gun company has EVER done anything like that in all my years I have been on gun forums and as an FFL.
C4
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I'm sorry I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers over this.
Yes, I got a discounted rate (dealer cost + shipping fees). All of this was on the invoice I received from him. A copy of the invoice was shipped back with the 2nd APC. Tim in turn wrote me a check for the invoiced amount minus the cost of the B&T stock, which my dealer bought off me.
So yes, I received a discount.
No, I didn't receive anything extra monetarily on top of that.
Yes, I received an aimpoint which was originally offered to me for my trouble with the first APC, but was not included with the 2nd APC and only came with my refund.
Another member on this forum also received a refund for his faulty APC. He however did not receive an aimpoint. So shipping out aimpoints to customers who have issues with their products is not B&T's usual course of action.
All of these details were spelled out in my previous posts in this thread (minus the other member's experience).
I'm sorry I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers over this.
Yes, I got a discounted rate (dealer cost + shipping fees). All of this was on the invoice I received from him. A copy of the invoice was shipped back with the 2nd APC. Tim in turn wrote me a check for the invoiced amount minus the cost of the B&T stock, which my dealer bought off me.
So yes, I received a discount.
No, I didn't receive anything extra monetarily on top of that.
Yes, I received an aimpoint which was originally offered to me for my trouble with the first APC, but was not included with the 2nd APC and only came with my refund.
Another member on this forum also received a refund for his faulty APC. He however did not receive an aimpoint. So shipping out aimpoints to customers who have issues with their products is not B&T's usual course of action.
All of these details were spelled out in my previous posts in this thread (minus the other member's experience).
No feathers ruffled, but we are fans of the truth. The APC45's MAP is $2200. What did you pay??
To be clear, there is NOTHING wrong with the APC45. It is strictly a mag spring tension issue (which has been resolved).
Yes, B&T is the ONLY company I have ever seen fully refund people and give them an Aimpoint. That is way above and beyond IMHO.
C4
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No feathers ruffled, but we are fans of the truth. The APC45's MAP is $2200. What did you pay??
To be clear, there is NOTHING wrong with the APC45. It is strictly a mag spring tension issue (which has been resolved).
Yes, B&T is the ONLY company I have ever seen fully refund people and give them an Aimpoint. That is way above and beyond IMHO.
C4
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https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=42731&d=1480982866
Any other questions? I also have a photo of the check Tim sent me, should I post a photo of that as well just so you can match up the numbers??
It seems to me that you're trying to poke holes in my story and scrutinize every detail, so yet again I apologize if I've ruffled your feathers.
Rotor tuner
12-06-16, 11:50
I believe 1999 is the Map price or at least that's what my dealer told me when I bought one.
I believe 1999 is the Map price or at least that's what my dealer told me when I bought one.
No. There is a new MAP.
C4
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As a consumer I can tell you for a fact that it is a problem. If I spend thousands of dollars on a product and it is defective I should not have to play phone tag or wait weeks to get it resolved. Companies that place a high priority on customer service should always have a competent representative available to resolve issues during normal business hours. That is just good business. I understand that realistically is not always possible as a new business gets off the ground but that should be the goal.
This sounds reasonable to me as a consumer.
I know patience isn't a virtue for Americans any more, but it is pretty normal to wait weeks when you send a problem gun back to companies like Glock, SIG, Colt, etc.
The consumer is also welcome to call the B&T directly if the US option is unavailable.
C4
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For me, my level of patience goes down, as the product price goes up.
Yes, B&T is the ONLY company I have ever seen fully refund people and give them an Aimpoint. That is way above and beyond IMHO.
C4
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Add Vortex to them, I bought a Strike Eagle from a vendor, had an issue and called Vortex CS.
They sent me a shipping label, and when they received the optic, agreed with me
and sent me a check for the full amount including shipping. No Aimpoint though.......... just kidding
That was a great CS gesture on the part of B&T
Never seen anything like it.
Talk to B&T about this gun. Apparently there is a spring tensioning issue with the mag springs (not the gun or the mag body itself). B&T is working on getting some new springs out (which will be free to everyone with a 45 Mag).
As I know more, I will keep everyone updated.
C4
Please do. I haven't shot all of my mags yet, but a couple wouldn't engage the BHO after the last round was fired. That said unsuppressed/suppressed I haven't had any feeding, or extraction issues with either my APC9, or 45. I can't wait for the F1s to get approved. They are both very sweet shooters.
Fiocchi 158gr 9mm ball
Federal 147gr HST JHP
Fiocchi 220gr .45 ball
Federal 220 HST .45 JHP
Please do. I haven't shot all of my mags yet, but a couple wouldn't engage the BHO after the last round was fired. That said unsuppressed/suppressed I haven't had any feeding, or extraction issues with either my APC9, or 45. I can't wait for the F1s to get approved. They are both very sweet shooters.
Fiocchi 158gr 9mm ball
Federal 147gr HST JHP
Fiocchi 220gr .45 ball
Federal 220 HST .45 JHP
Yeah, give B&T a call. Glad you didn't have any major issues with the 45.
But I have to ask, why would you form 1 a firearm that isn't engaging the BHO? Granted it's not a major functional concern, and is probably mag related, but for anything to get a stamp in my book, it has to be 100%. I have 3,000 rounds through the Vector proving it and I just mailed my form 1 last week.
Yeah, give B&T a call. Glad you didn't have any major issues with the 45.
But I have to ask, why would you form 1 a firearm that isn't engaging the BHO? Granted it's not a major functional concern, and is probably mag related, but for anything to get a stamp in my book, it has to be 100%. I have 3,000 rounds through the Vector proving it and I just mailed my form 1 last week.
I have 10 mags for each gun. On that trip to the range I only brought four. Of those four magazines only 2 seemed to fail engaging the BHO. Of those 2 it only happened once with each mag. I loaded up all four mags twice. So it wasn't consistent (granted small sample size), and I think shooting it as a pistol contributes to the likelihood of malfunctions.
Worst case I would either have NFA branch update the serial on the form, or I'd cancel that submission and mail off another package.
Arm Braces are in stock!
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SBT-01-B-BT
C4
Did anyone else have good or bad experiances with the APC 45? Did anyone get the updated mag springs and if so, did they fix the issues?
Did anyone else have good or bad experiances with the APC 45? Did anyone get the updated mag springs and if so, did they fix the issues?
For what it's worth, I haven't seen any reviews specifically of the APC 45. I've seen mention of it in forums, instagram pics, and promotional videos, but no one reviewing the weapon. No mention either of updated mag springs either.
I really did like everything the APC 45 brought to the table and I will buy one in the future once the 45 has the same reputation that the APC 9 has. Paraphrasing both what Tim and Grant said, they seem to sell pretty well and there are a lot out there in the wild, but I can't for the life of me figure out why no individual has done a review or at least posted a video of it shooting. Maybe all those other APC 45 owners think it's just too pretty to shoot..
Checking in to see if anyone has updated info about their APC 45? I actually have both an APC 9 and APC 45 and shot them both for the first time yesterday. The APC 9 ran flawlessly but I did encounter an issue with the 45. I'll contact B&T US and report back.
.
Checking in to see if anyone has updated info about their APC 45? I actually have both an APC 9 and APC 45 and shot them both for the first time yesterday. The APC 9 ran flawlessly but I did encounter an issue with the 45. I'll contact B&T US and report back.
.
Been researching the APC45 and was actually planing to buy one from Grant (best prices on the net). Found this thread just now and see a second person has an issue. My concern is if the $>100 mag is the issue, how do I know that a mag I purchase will be one of the newer ones with the upgraded spring?
There seems to be a good bit of internet noise about lack of reliability of the APC45, but thus far, this is the only actual review of a customer with issues (amd5007). So, I'm trying to figure out it's a one off even everyone keeps repeating or if there are others with reliability, ammo sensitivity, and BHO issues (those seem to be themes).
Been researching the APC45 and was actually planing to buy one from Grant (best prices on the net). Found this thread just now and see a second person has an issue. My concern is if the $>100 mag is the issue, how do I know that a mag I purchase will be one of the newer ones with the upgraded spring?
There seems to be a good bit of internet noise about lack of reliability of the APC45, but thus far, this is the only actual review of a customer with issues (amd5007). So, I'm trying to figure out it's a one off even everyone keeps repeating or if there are others with reliability, ammo sensitivity, and BHO issues (those seem to be themes).
I did encounter what appeared to be magazine issues with my new APC45. I've contacted B&T and they are sending me the new mag springs. I've also encountered another issue that I'll report back on once it's resolved. I will say they B&T have been very responsive so far and I'm looking forward to having everything resolved and getting my APC 45 back to the range.
I did encounter what appeared to be magazine issues with my new APC45. I've contacted B&T and they are sending me the new mag springs. I've also encountered another issue that I'll report back on once it's resolved. I will say they B&T have been very responsive so far and I'm looking forward to having everything resolved and getting my APC 45 back to the range.
OK, thanks - that's helpful.
I did encounter what appeared to be magazine issues with my new APC45. I've contacted B&T and they are sending me the new mag springs. I've also encountered another issue that I'll report back on once it's resolved. I will say they B&T have been very responsive so far and I'm looking forward to having everything resolved and getting my APC 45 back to the range.
OK, I wanted to update this thread with my experiences and satisfaction with B&T services. I had mentioned that I encountered a couple issues with my new APC 45 in this thread; on its first outing to the range I experienced two issues with my APC 45; the first were FTE issues that I was having with one of my three magazines (mostly with the mag that came with the APC). I did encounter one FTE in 100+ rounds with another magazine as well. I had read in this thread that B&T had cited that the FTE issues were being caused by the original magazine springs and they had a replacements available. I contacted B&T and they sent me some of the new magazine springs promptly. Comparing the old mag springs to the new replacement magazine springs the differences are immediately apparent; the new replacement springs are longer and once installed much stiffer than the one that had come in my purchased magazines.
The spring on top is the new replacement springs
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b430/rumblestar308/APC/APC45_springnew2_zpsugy3f0w8.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/rumblestar308/media/APC/APC45_springnew2_zpsugy3f0w8.jpg.html)
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b430/rumblestar308/APC/APC45_springnew_zpsighugopi.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/rumblestar308/media/APC/APC45_springnew_zpsighugopi.jpg.html)
The second issue that I encountered was a broken disconnector. After about 200rds, the APC started to fire immediately when the trigger reset.
I contacted B&T and promptly sent them my lower for evaluation and repair. Correspondence with B&T via email worked great and they responded very promptly (within a few hours). They repaired and shipped back my lower (saying that it was extremely rare to have a disconnector break on one of theirs but it had been reported at least once before), and sent along the new replacement magazine springs. Including shipping, it took just a little over a week to send the APC lower off to them in FL, and have it returned to me via FedEx here in Seattle. I have to say the experience with working with B&T has been very satisfactory and I want to thank Tim and Jess for helping me with the issues I encountered with the APC 45. I haven't had a chance to try the APC 45 out with the new springs but once I do I'll report back to this thread. I will say that I also have an APC 9 and its been flawless.
Ok, just reporting back now that I've had a chance to really test out my APC 45 with the new replacement magazines. I can happily say that the new magazine springs that B&T sent me fixed all of the FTE and Failures to feed issues. Just ran about 250 rds through it and it ran perfectly with each of my 4 magazines; no misfeeds or failures to extract. Thanks again Tim and Jess at B&T!
Ok, just reporting back now that I've had a chance to really test out my APC 45 with the new replacement magazines. I can happily say that the new magazine springs that B&T sent me fixed all of the FTE and Failures to feed issues. Just ran about 250 rds through it and it ran perfectly with each of my 4 magazines; no misfeeds or failures to extract. Thanks again Tim and Jess at B&T!
Thanks for the update RMF. Good to hear the mags took care of the issue. Did B&T cover your shipping costs to ship the lower back to them?
Thanks as always!
Thanks for the update RMF. Good to hear the mags took care of the issue. Did B&T cover your shipping costs to ship the lower back to them?
Thanks as always!
Yes, they did cover the FedEx next day shipping both ways. For my troubles they also included a very nice gift. :-)
That seems appropriate! Thanks again for the detail. Helps me make my own decision to go with a 45 or a 9
Dirtyboy333
10-09-17, 16:29
I'm glad the got that worked out for you. I do feel for the OP, as I would be frustrated as well.
I have the apc9 and it's been spectacular. I would expect nothing less. I rushed to get 1,000 Rd's through it. I shot over 1k within 3 weeks and never cleaned or lubed. It was extremely accurate and monuverability was phenomenal. Easy to master follow up shots and I Think the excellent trigger has a big part in that. I was rapid firing from 50 yards and not having any problem hitting 12 x 16 steel plate. Pulling the trigger as soon as I can get the dot back down. Lo and behold, never had a single malfunction of any kind through those 1000 rounds. Bolt always held open on last round as well. I love this thing. This is the first gun that I am going to suppress. I want a tri lug mount but something that's not quite as long as a normal looking can. There's so many options I don't know where to start
On another subject, I've gotten some emails from a vendor saying transfers for suppressors in 30 days or less. How is that possible?
If somebody would be so kind as to explain to me why Magazine spring tension or a lack thereof, would cause failure to extract.
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