View Full Version : M4 "Clone"
If you had a civilian Colt M4 type rifle with a 14.5" SOCOM barrel and wanted to configure it like a military M4, make it into an M4 clone, as it were, how would you configure it? What sights, furniture, suppressor and so on would you use? This rifle is intended to be a shooter, not just a show piece.
Does anyone have photos of actual duty M4s they could share? What is actually being used? How are your M4 clones configured and why?
Thanks
KalashniKEV
10-20-16, 18:59
If you had a civilian Colt M4 type rifle with a 14.5" SOCOM barrel and wanted to configure it like a military M4, make it into an M4 clone, as it were, how would you configure it?
First I would ditch the SOCOM barrel and install an M4 barrel, or just start with a 6921 upper.
What sights, furniture, suppressor and so on would you use?
1) MAtech BUIS + M68 in torque limiting mount with half-moon spacer (or a TA-31F)
2) KAC RAS + KAC foregrip + Rubber Colt Grip + M4 stock (or an N4 stock)
3) No suppressor. Surefire M951
Does anyone have photos of actual duty M4s they could share? What is actually being used?
My M4 and SAW:
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/Rifles/FB_IMG_1477007843383_zpsqsboht5q.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/Kalashnikev/media/Rifles/FB_IMG_1477007843383_zpsqsboht5q.jpg.html)
How are your M4 clones configured and why?
1) My M4 wears all standard equipment.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/Rifles/IMAG0036_zpsuzgmutyg.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/Kalashnikev/media/Rifles/IMAG0036_zpsuzgmutyg.jpg.html)
2) Because I need it for my service rifle collection.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/Rifles/IMAG0640_1_zps3a1stw4n.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/Kalashnikev/media/Rifles/IMAG0640_1_zps3a1stw4n.jpg.html)
I've been out a while, but before I gothink out the "standard" configuration was:
Matech BUIS
Aimpoint Comp M2 (M68)
KAC RAS rail
KAC forward grip
Surefire M951
First I would ditch the SOCOM barrel and install an M4 barrel, or just start with a 6921 upper.
1) MAtech BUIS + M68 in torque limiting mount with half-moon spacer (or a TA-31F)
2) KAC RAS + KAC foregrip + Rubber Colt Grip + M4 stock (or an N4 stock)
3) No suppressor. Surefire M951
My M4 and SAW:
1) My M4 wears all standard equipment.
2) Because I need it for my service rifle collection.
Impressive collection
Carry handle that SOB. [emoji41]
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161021/eb96b9edbea8314fd404438d0b2785f4.jpg
KalashniKEV
10-20-16, 19:51
Carry handle that SOB. [emoji41]
Yeah... If you're going for that pogue look.
I did it for a few hours just to snap a few pics but I wouldn't want anyone to see me around my FOB... errr... I mean condo... with it...
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/Rifles/IMAG0597_zpssuuflksk.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/Kalashnikev/media/Rifles/IMAG0597_zpssuuflksk.jpg.html)
Why you no like the SOCOM barrel?
Not judging, just curious.
Plus that service rifle is far out.
If the Russian Antonovs start dropping paratroops over I-95, I expect Kev to be out there with a doughboy helmet and 1903 taking care of businesd
556BlackRifle
10-20-16, 20:17
MistWolf, if you are going to go with MaTech BUIS, be careful. ebay and Amazon are overloaded with fakes. Same with the SureFire M591.
Best deal I've found on MaTech sights are at Surplus Ammo (http://www.surplusammo.com/matech-ar15-m16-usgi-back-up-iron-sight/). I dealt with them years ago when they were originally across from Ft Lewis (Now JBLM) but only once since they moved to downtown Tacoma. Anyway they have them for $79.99 and Brownells and the like have em for $105.
As far as the M591, used is pretty much your only option although you may find some NOS if you get lucky. Tons of fakes on ebay and Amazon as well.
KEV, you have a great collection
Carry handle that SOB. [emoji41]
Heh! If I didn't want the purse handle on my FAL, I wouldn't want one on my AR :D
MistWolf, if you are going to go with MaTech BUIS, be careful. ebay and Amazon are overloaded with fakes. Same with the SureFire M591
I remember when Surplus Ammo and Arms was across the freeway from Lewis-McChord. It was a unique place. I got a lot of ammo and a few interesting items there. I was living up in Everett at the time and it was a good forty-five minute drive to get there.
I've got a KAC 600 meter rear sight that I like very much. I'm thinking of using that. I've also got a bayonet. Gotta have a bayonet
KalashniKEV
10-21-16, 03:57
Why you no like the SOCOM barrel?
Not judging, just curious.
I do like it.
I'm actually a proponent of more robust profiles, and it's my opinion that the LW fad is on it's way out.
I may have missed the point of the OP, but I was thinking we were going for a standard issue M4-type like you'd be issued in any unit in the Army (because that's what I was).
Looking back at SOCOM and suppressors, maybe it's something different...
I've got a KAC 600 meter rear sight that I like very much. I'm thinking of using that. I've also got a bayonet. Gotta have a bayonet
I was about to post a question about that KAC rear sight. Are those not an issued rear sight?
Renegade04
10-21-16, 08:27
I've been out a while, but before I gothink out the "standard" configuration was:
Matech BUIS
Aimpoint Comp M2 (M68)
KAC RAS rail
KAC forward grip
Surefire M951
That is pretty much the way the M4s are outfitted. This is one of my clones in a similar configuration.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/M4/007_zps8bb64c8a.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/M4/007_zps8bb64c8a.jpg.html)
When you get into the SOPMOD Blocks, the configurations can vary.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/M4/001_zpsb0f24fd5.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/M4/001_zpsb0f24fd5.jpg.html)
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/M4/001_zpshln0y1c7.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/M4/001_zpshln0y1c7.jpg.html)
Of course, you always have the basic M4.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/M4/007_zpsnvddbsx1.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/Weapons%202014/Retro%20ARs/M4/007_zpsnvddbsx1.jpg.html)
Why you no like the SOCOM barrel?
Not judging, just curious.
Plus that service rifle is far out.
If the Russian Antonovs start dropping paratroops over I-95, I expect Kev to be out there with a doughboy helmet and 1903 taking care of businesd
Its adoption was largely thanks to a huge witch hunt after the battle of wanat
bowman57_2
10-21-16, 09:21
Removed
M4 is now retro, man we're old :jester:
Most of the components were period piece, except for the LaRue mount (back then it'd have the TA51 or ARMS mount, and some sort of non-factory, home made Optima 2000 mount to take the place of TA01NSN's ghost ring). Around 2001 or 2002, Vic (head of Tactical Night Vision Company) and I were a small part of a group on TOS that had such a red dot mount made for our TA01NSN. KAC made a prototype long ago but I don't think they ever marketed it. Trijicon and other makers have since offered red dot mounts for ACOGs from mid to late 2000s.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/retrom4_zpsoavug7hz.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/retrom4_zpsoavug7hz.jpg.html)
556BlackRifle
10-21-16, 10:12
KEV, you have a great collection
Heh! If I didn't want the purse handle on my FAL, I wouldn't want one on my AR :D
I remember when Surplus Ammo and Arms was across the freeway from Lewis-McChord. It was a unique place. I got a lot of ammo and a few interesting items there. I was living up in Everett at the time and it was a good forty-five minute drive to get there.
I've got a KAC 600 meter rear sight that I like very much. I'm thinking of using that. I've also got a bayonet. Gotta have a bayonet
LOL....Things have changed. Now days from Everett, depending on the time of day, you'd be looking at anywhere from 1.5 to 2.5 hrs most days. At 03:00 prolly could still make it in 45 min pedal to the metal.
When we were in Everett, we were at the south end. Later, we found ourselves in Lynnwood, right up the street from Lynnwood Guns. That put us a little closer to Surplus.
The last time I took a job in Washington, it was at Ft Lewis and we moved into an apartment right across the freeway from the base, about two or three exits from Surplus.
"Whoohoo!", I thought. Then I found out they'd moved exclusively into their Taco Ma location.
Just can't win
Last time I drove by the old location, the tank was still in the parking lot. That was a year ago
Aren't all the new M4's actually M4A1's? I've heard where even if they are arsenal refinished that they are coming back with the SOCOM profile barrel. True?
3ACR_Scout
10-21-16, 11:27
The Army is in the process of converting M4s to A1s with the SOCOM barrel and "auto" selector, so you could go with either barrel. As far as accessories, I was issued an M600 way back in 2008, so I wouldn't put that giant M951 on an M4 clone. My issue rifle sitting next to me has an ACOG, Matech BUIS, PEQ-15, and Magpul FDE XT panels on the rails. I'm going to put a BCM FDE Mod 3 grip on it as soon as I can find a screwdriver (forgot to bring one to work). I have a Tang Down QD stubby grip, but I haven't gotten around to cutting up the XT panels to make room for it. I'll probably switch the stock for a SOPMOD when I track one down - there are still quite a few of them around. I also have a Gear Sector QD sling mount on the rail and a Tango Down PR-4 QD mount on the buffer tube, with a BFG sling. I'll let my guys install accessories as long as they're using quality gear. I believe in making my riflemen as effective as possible.
So I guess the question is whether you want an "out of the box" M4 or one where the user has a little flexibility to tailor it to their needs / preferences.
Dave
3ACR is correct. US ARMY is going to a pure fleet of M4A1s with a combination of new FNs, Colts and Colt M4s upgraded to M4A1s. If you have access to FMS web you can see the supporting Basis of Issue and Force Modernization Plans. My POG unit received brand new (I saw the boxes first hand) FN M4A1s. Ours have the KAC RAS, MATECH BUIS and ambi selectors. The burst limiter has been eliminated. The mag release is not ambi. If I were to build a clone I'd grab a COLT upper from grant or a BCM M4a1 upper, add a RAS rail and either use your KAC BUIS or a MATech. I like my personally owned KAC micro over the MATECH. Throw an AIMPOINT PRO on top and it'll be close to an M68 for a decent price. The issue sling is a "quiet" sling that can found for $15-$20. It works but it isn't great. I haven't seen an issue light since all the RFI surefires became "PCS awards" in 2007. I've seen unit buy surefires and CHICHOMS with unit funds. Supposedly they are working on a standard issue weapon light. I wouldn't slavishly copy the M4, the KAC rail covers are too thick, VFGs are personal preference IMHO and the MATECH while functional is not my favorite.
Last time I was downrange (as a staff guy) I used a M68 (Aimpoint COMP M2) with MATECH, Magpul rail covers, and a VTAC sling on my issued M4. I would/should have add a light.
If I was still an Infantry PL, I'd add a surefire and a PEQ-15.
Hope it helps.
Eurodriver
10-21-16, 15:29
What, no Marines here?
Throw an ACOG on that bish. Aimpoints are for 300m Army play toys.
Colt 6920. TA31RCOM4. ATPIAL-C. 3pt Sling.
42087
Close enough to this POS.
42086
I sold that rifle, because I was a man and had an A4, but that's the route you need to go.
http://www.clipartkid.com/images/794/usmc-eagle-globe-and-anchor-drawings-free-cliparts-that-you-can-STEdmu-clipart.jpeg
So all you have is an A4 now?
I remember your A4 thread
Hell I'm surprised he has an M4! That Jarhead rifle > carbine is hard to shake! ;)
I shouldn't poke fun as my issue weapon as an Army grunt 30 years ago was an M16A1. I have a clone with an A1 profile, 20" chrome lined barrel on it with a 1:7 twist. Best of both worlds: light and relatively handy for a full-sized AR yet still able to shoot the newer, heavier, superior stuff (from a ballistic point of view).
El Pistolero
10-22-16, 12:12
I'll add that in the Air Force we had brand-new M4s being issued with Aimpoint CompM4 and CompM4S sights, grip-pod VFGs (which the bipod always ended up busted sooner rather than later) and Insight flashlights identical to those from the SOPMOD Block II program except they were black. Some rifles had PEQ-15s and the dual remote switch and some did not. The rest was standard Army M4, 14.5" barrel, KAC rail and rail covers, M4 stock, Matech rear sight, and 3-round burst selectors. I was CE so we had all-new guns but I worked with security forces almost every day and if they didn't have new M4s they had older ones with the Aimpoint CompM2/M68 CCO sight, worn-out Matech rear BUIS that popped up when firing, PEQ-2As, and Surefire M951 flashlights. Some had the newer Insight lights, and some had M203s.
bowman57_2
10-22-16, 21:28
If I were to build one like an Army carbine I would use:
14.5 M4 barrel with a Surefire FH/suppressor mount
12" RIS II
Insight M3X or WMX200 light and PEQ15
Elcan Spectre DR
14.5 barrel
kac carbine rail w/ grip-pod
acog ta31
surfire g2 w/ red filter and surefire m79 mount
peq-15
Renegade04
10-24-16, 11:19
What, no Marines here?
Throw an ACOG on that bish. Aimpoints are for 300m Army play toys.
Colt 6920. TA31RCOM4. ATPIAL-C. 3pt Sling.
42087
Close enough to this POS.
42086
I sold that rifle, because I was a man and had an A4, but that's the route you need to go.
http://www.clipartkid.com/images/794/usmc-eagle-globe-and-anchor-drawings-free-cliparts-that-you-can-STEdmu-clipart.jpeg
I have an older LE6920 set up much the same way using the TA31RCOM4.
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea_08/034_zpsfc1b8bee.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/jamesrea_08/034_zpsfc1b8bee.jpg.html)
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/jamesrea_2006/jamesrea_08/029_zps8509373a.jpg (http://s100.photobucket.com/user/jamesrea_2006/media/jamesrea_08/029_zps8509373a.jpg.html)
morpheus562
10-24-16, 11:35
I'm not sure if it has been brought up yet, but I would reach out to Ken from Specialized Armament to set you up. I went to him to have a Colt M4 clone setup exactly like the one I carried in Afghanistan. Right now it looks like he is offering a package to reconfigure a customer provided colt 6920 into an m4 clone.
I swapped out the 16" M4 barrel for the 14.5 SOCOM and shot it this weekend using the KAC 600 meter rear sight. Once I got it sighted in, I had no problems making hits out to 300 yards. Short version, I like it better than the 16"barrel. The SOCOM barrel and the KAC sight are keepers
P.S. Both the 16" and 14.5" barrels are a little more than a quarter of an inch longer than advertised
Did you guys really use the KAC rail panels on duty guns? Most of the pics I've seen from the sandbox the rail panels were not on there. I have a 6921 upper with BCM A2X extended flash hider perm-attached and it sports rail ladders, not the panels.
KalashniKEV
10-24-16, 20:02
Did you guys really use the KAC rail panels on duty guns? Most of the pics I've seen from the sandbox the rail panels were not on there. I have a 6921 upper with BCM A2X extended flash hider perm-attached and it sports rail ladders, not the panels.
No, nobody ever used those.
They're the worst, depending on whether you're pushing the gun out to aquire a target or pulling it back into your shoulder to form a good platform, they wobble like cheap junk.
Also, If you weren't in a unit, you had to sign for them and turn them in at the end.
No, nobody ever used those.
They're the worst, depending on whether you're pushing the gun out to aquire a target or pulling it back into your shoulder to form a good platform, they wobble like cheap junk.
Also, If you weren't in a unit, you had to sign for them and turn them in at the end.
That figures.
Thanks for the info.
Eurodriver
10-25-16, 01:45
No, nobody ever used those.
They're the worst, depending on whether you're pushing the gun out to aquire a target or pulling it back into your shoulder to form a good platform, they wobble like cheap junk.
Also, If you weren't in a unit, you had to sign for them and turn them in at the end.
Wowwwww. I had so many I ran some at the 12!!
Never had to . Which is weird forMarines. They make you sign for chow. Wait for MREs they did idk
It is
A lot of our guys ran the rail panels on the rear half of our M16s. Though our A4 rifles were pretty new at the time so maybe the rail panels just hadn't turn to crap yet.
Just got back in July.
Most of the guns that came through my door didn't have rail panels or VFGs.
TM made us return every gun in specified configuration, regardless of the aftermarket goodies soldiers brought with them. Of course we would give them back their stuff and tell them to simply put the issue crap back on the gun before they brought it back to our shop for the next maintenance cycle.
Sights were a mishmash of issued optics and often times if an optic was bad, the unit "armorers" would simply issue a different rifle and throw the one with the busted optic in the back of their lockers.
We had to send every rifle out the door with the following:
MATECH BUIS.
Standard M4 carbine stock
KAC RIS
Standard A2 grip
Panels, VFG's, and optics were not our concern and varied widely depending on the soldier.
And no, the full change over to M4A1 has not been completed yet.
p.s. Dummy cording was very prevalent and mostly a complete waste of time as more often then not the soldiers would tie through the top of the RIS and have the 550 cord in contact with the gas tube. We scraped a lot of burnt nylon off of gas tubes.
KalashniKEV
10-25-16, 09:44
Wowwwww. I had so many I ran some at the 12!!
Never had to . Which is weird forMarines.
Actually putting one at the 12 isn't such a bad idea.
It would work as a heat shield preventing mirage and also you would not be tortured by the wobble.
As for accountability I remember they are accounted for by the number of ribs- losing an "11 Rib Panel" is like, the equivalent of losing 12 canteen cups or something.
I hope someday I can invent something like that, sell it to the government, and force Joe to buy hundreds and hundreds each year. Bonus if it's not a total non-functional POS, which KAC rail covers are.
p.s. Dummy cording was very prevalent and mostly a complete waste of time...
Slap the living shit out of yourself. Right now.
Wowwwww. I had so many I ran some at the 12!!
Never had to . Which is weird forMarines. They make you sign for chow. Wait for MREs they did idk
It is
Didnt answer my question. Have you totally forsook the M4 for an A4? Do you at least have a bayonet?
Slap the living shit out of yourself. Right now.
I also refused to wear a pt belt after it got dark....... and nobody ever once said anything about it......
ETA: Also, if the soldier wanted it, we often replaced the dummy cord with lacing wire.
KalashniKEV
10-27-16, 21:44
I also refused to wear a pt belt after it got dark....... and nobody ever once said anything about it......
I still wear a PT belt during hours of limited vis.
The sun's starting to go down earlier and earlier this time of year.
ETA: Also, if the soldier wanted it, we often replaced the dummy cord with lacing wire.
As long as it's dummy corded, it doesn't matter to me if it's flex cuffs, safety wire, or 550.
As long as it's dummy corded, it doesn't matter to me if it's flex cuffs, safety wire, or 550.
My gripe wasn't that they were dummy corded, it's that they did it with 550 cord and basically wrapped it around the gas tube so that it burned through and caused the 550 cord to melt in two making it so that the cord didn't actually hold anything in place at all.
I was more then happy to replace it with lacing wire or explain to them where to properly attach it if they wanted to stick with the 550.
ETA: regarding pt belts, I spent most of my time in afg on FOBs where they didn't give two shits about PT belts or where there was little to no vehicle traffic. BAF was a different story, but nobody said anything there either. Kuwait was a very different story and I did pt belt up because the base cops were assholes. And I do mean complete, all out, full retard, assholes. Some of the shit I saw them do............. sigh......
plumpsquirrel3
10-30-16, 16:01
I'll add that in the Air Force we had brand-new M4s being issued with Aimpoint CompM4 and CompM4S sights, grip-pod VFGs (which the bipod always ended up busted sooner rather than later) and Insight flashlights identical to those from the SOPMOD Block II program except they were black. Some rifles had PEQ-15s and the dual remote switch and some did not. The rest was standard Army M4, 14.5" barrel, KAC rail and rail covers, M4 stock, Matech rear sight, and 3-round burst selectors. I was CE so we had all-new guns but I worked with security forces almost every day and if they didn't have new M4s they had older ones with the Aimpoint CompM2/M68 CCO sight, worn-out Matech rear BUIS that popped up when firing, PEQ-2As, and Surefire M951 flashlights. Some had the newer Insight lights, and some had M203s.
This is pretty much accurate for the Security Forces M4s. Many of the old Comp M2s are being replaced with a Comp M4(s). And the PEQ-2s are pretty much replaced by the 15s. My old squadron got new FNH M4s last year and all came with the M4, PEQ-15, Insight M3X light, and RAS. I've never been to a unit that accounted for rail panels. Many rifles I've seen don't even have any. Especially the older rifles. I have seen some oddball things like the standard Car handguards, old style stocks, and even an older style MI handguards on issue rifles.
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