what to aim for in shooting groups?

[jeri534]

Going to shoot and sight in my AR tomorrow, just you're standard 16", Iron sights. Gonna be shooting at 50/100yds. Ive had about less than a few hundred rounds of trigger time with a long rifle, I can run my pistol real good Ive had training in shooting handguns so I have a pretty good understanding of trigger control, sight picture, follow through.

What kind of groups should I be aiming for at around 50 yards? 100 yards? This will be shot on sandbags sitting down.

Thanks

[POF.Ops]

I sight my AR rifles to be POA at 200yds. This equates to 4-6" high at 100 yards. As far as groups go shoot them as small as the rifle, and your abilities allow!

[CAPT KIRK]

An AR15 with a 16" barrel is not a sniper rifle, it is a close quarters weapon. I would zero it in for point of aim at 50 yds which should also give approximate zero at 150 yds also and you'll be about 4 inches high at 100 yds. Therefore you can essentially shoot point of aim all the way out to 150-175 yds, which is about the maximum fully effective range of most personal defense type ammo out of your 16" barrel.

This too will depend on wether or not you can shoot 5.56 NATO out of your gun or just the .223, but that is a whole other discussion addressed in other threads.

[Kurt Reifert]

Pick up the latest issue (Oct) of SWAT magazine and read the article by Lt. Col. Freddie Blish.
He deals with battlesight zero and what is right for you.
His focus is on iron sights, but the info translates to dot sights as well.
Excellent analysis.

[Failure2Stop]

If you are asking about acceptable group size-

I expect to get at least 3 MOA out of an AR with M855/M193, which is not great ammo and varys from lot to lot. Since I have the range available I check group size/POI at actual distance, depending on the zeroing procedure for the optic/sights.

My personal guns shoot well below the 3 MOA minimum with decent ammo, if I don't do anything stupid on my side of the trigger :p. Well built, precision-ish ARs are generally caipable of 1 MOA or better. I had one gun that would consistently group 1 MOA at 100 yds (1"), from bipod with 9X optic.

I use 10 shot groups when ultimately determining accuracy performance from an AR, which makes teeny groups hard to accidentally achieve.

Iron sights may open your groups up, but I consider irons to be back-up to my primary sighting device, and do not dwell on shooting really little groups with them too often. Re-seating traditional iron sight marksmanship is always a good thing, but should not be dwelled upon in my opinon.

If you are talking about what zeroing procedure to use I recommend achieving POA/POI at your furthest realistic distance. For most users this will be the 50/200 IBZ. There are a few variations on the method, but what you wind up with is POA/POI at 50 yards and roughly 200 yards, or POA/POI at 200 yards and roughly at 50 yards. It depends on at what distance you tune your zero.

The 100 yard zero is also effective, but rapidly loses efficiency past about 150 yards (especially with iron sights due to the sight blocking the target, making offset difficult), and is best suited for dedicated CQB guns.

The old stand-by 300 yard zero can be effective with A2 sights, but introduces some variables when the 0-2 sight is used. Not recommended if you are not proficient/comfortable with A2 sights.

[Harv]

Jeri534


What kind of groups should I be aiming for at around 50 yards? 100 yards? This will be shot on sandbags sitting down.

Putting them all in the same hole....;)

Until you can do that consistently, then keep practicing.....

[jeri534]

Was able to shoot roughly 6-8" groups at 100 yards on my iron sights, not bad for the conditions and ammo. I was shooting close to a 1-2" at 50 yards with a red dot sight which was pretty fun to shoot with also.

Also, how many clicks is considered reasonable to adjust windage? Im using a Troy BUIS and it has .5 MOA adjustments per click. I had to adjust mine about 12 clicks to the left, is that a reasonable amount of adjustment?

[28_days]

Pick up the latest issue (Oct) of SWAT magazine and read the article by Lt. Col. Freddie Blish.
He deals with battlesight zero and what is right for you.
His focus is on iron sights, but the info translates to dot sights as well.
Excellent analysis.

You don't happen to have a scan of this do you? :D

[ARin]

what to aim for? preferably the bullseye.;)

[Joe Mamma]

I would zero it in for point of aim at 50 yds which should also give approximate zero at 150 yds also and you'll be about 4 inches high at 100 yds.

I think you meant to say about 1 & 1/2 to 2 inches high at 100 yrds, and about 2 & 1/4 inches at 150 yrds (when you zero a 16" carbine at 50 yrds).

Joe Mamma

[Pilgrim]

3 to 4 MOA with irons is a good start jeri... keep at it. I can do 2 MOA at 100 with irons, and you can too, just keep at it.

As to what your trajectory might be like, well that will depend on the ammo. I just used Black Hills 77GR Match Sierra moly-coated (factory re-load) in a stock LMT M4 16" 1x7 twist upper, with a Leupold VXII 1-4x20 in a LaRue 1.5 SPR mount. The lower had a McCormick Gen. 1 trigger unit, MAID grip, and Vltor EMOD stock.

At 50 yards I zeroed with a 1/4 MOA 3 shot group. At 100 was 1 MOA and exactly 2.5 inches above POA. At 200 I pulled a shot... but STILL printed a 1.25MOA group that was 2.5 inches below POA. At 400 I was at 1.5 MOA with approximately 30 inches of drop. At 440 (all I have is a 1/4 mile range) the LMT was at 1.25 MOA with 40 inches of drop.

This type of shooting results is what some here would consider to be 'average ability', for one that has above average range time.

I encourage you to get to the range often, and take a class or two if you can. Those groups of yours will get smaller.

[28_days]

I think you meant to say about 1 & 1/2 to 2 inches high at 100 yrds, and about 2 & 1/4 inches at 150 yrds (when you zero a 16" carbine at 50 yrds).

Joe Mamma

?

I thought with the IBZ, 50 and 200 should be right on per se.

[dilligaffrn]

what to aim for in shooting groups?

the same spot every time:D

good advise above

[Joe Mamma]

?

I thought with the IBZ, 50 and 200 should be right on per se.

Very close. I just checked my numbers and they were a little off from what I previously posted. With typical ammo with 55/62 gr bullets and a 16" barrel, it should look about like this:

bullets hit ___ @ ___ distance from target

zero (0.0) @ 50 yards
0.9" high @ 75
1.6" high @ 100
1.9" high @125
2.0" high @150
1.7" high @175
1.0" high @200
0.0 @ 225
1.5 low @250
3.4 low@275


Joe Mamma

[28_days]

Very close. I just checked my numbers and they were a little off from what I previously posted. With typical ammo with 55/62 gr bullets and a 16" barrel, it should look about like this:

bullets hit ___ @ ___ distance from target

zero (0.0) @ 50 yards
0.9" high @ 75
1.6" high @ 100
1.9" high @125
2.0" high @150
1.7" high @175
1.0" high @200
0.0 @ 225
1.5 low @250
3.4 low@275


Joe Mamma

Thanks for the information! Within 2"!? Now I know why everyone uses it. :)

[spamsammich]

?

I thought with the IBZ, 50 and 200 should be right on per se.

Everyone seems to forget that IBZ is for POI=POA at 50 yds and 200 METERS. NOT 200 yds.

[Failure2Stop]

Everyone seems to forget that IBZ is for POI=POA at 50 yds and 200 METERS. NOT 200 yds.

That is a very generalized statement, and about as accurate as making the 50/200 yard statement. There is a significant difference in actual zero point and cross-over points depending on ammunition and barrel length, though the amount of actual group-shift is insignificant.

Here is an example-
With a 14.5" barrel shooting M193 if you zero at 50 yards you will be theoretically zeroed at 225 yards (just for the sake of argument 200 meters = 218.8 yards). However, the 25 yard distance really doesn't mean much as you will only be 1" high at 200 yards, which will be virtually invisible to the shooter.

Here is some data I had on hand-

Barrel__Ammo___50 yd___200 yd

14.5____M193____0_____+1" (225 yd zero)
14.5____M193___-0.2"____0
20_____ M193____0_____+1.6" (231 yd zero)
20_____ M193___-0.4"____0

14.5____M855____0_____+0.8" (220 yd zero)
14.5____M855___-0.2"____0
20_____ M855____0_____+1.2" (231 yd zero)
20_____ M855___-0.3"____0

14.5____Mk262___0_____-0.8" (184 yd zero)
14.5____Mk262__+0.2"___0

Keep in mind that the favored bullets for anything past 100 is something in the 77gr range and the fact that their trajectory more closely resembles the Mk262 path than the M855 path. It becomes apparent that that 200 yard or meter hard zero is more efficient than the 50 yard zero at extended ranges, where bullet drop becomes a critically important factor, especially when zeroing an optic with some sort of BDC.

[sgthoskins]

jeri534,

Your windage is fine.

Pilgrim,

Nice set up!

[sgthoskins]

That is a very generalized statement, and about as accurate as making the 50/200 yard statement. There is a significant difference in actual zero point and cross-over points depending on ammunition and barrel length, though the amount of actual group-shift is insignificant.

Here is an example-
With a 14.5" barrel shooting M193 if you zero at 50 yards you will be theoretically zeroed at 225 yards (just for the sake of argument 200 meters = 218.8 yards). However, the 25 yard distance really doesn't mean much as you will only be 1" high at 200 yards, which will be virtually invisible to the shooter.

Here is some data I had on hand-

Barrel__Ammo___50 yd___200 yd

14.5____M193____0_____+1" (225 yd zero)
14.5____M193___-0.2"____0
20_____ M193____0_____+1.6" (231 yd zero)
20_____ M193___-0.4"____0

14.5____M855____0_____+0.8" (220 yd zero)
14.5____M855___-0.2"____0
20_____ M855____0_____+1.2" (231 yd zero)
20_____ M855___-0.3"____0

14.5____Mk262___0_____-0.8" (184 yd zero)
14.5____Mk262__+0.2"___0

Keep in mind that the favored bullets for anything past 100 is something in the 77gr range and the fact that their trajectory more closely resembles the Mk262 path than the M855 path. It becomes apparent that that 200 yard or meter hard zero is more efficient than the 50 yard zero at extended ranges, where bullet drop becomes a critically important factor, especially when zeroing an optic with some sort of BDC.

Great info F2S! All you AR newbies should copy and paste this.