NDIA weapons procurement failures briefing

[DocGKR]

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Schatz.pdf

[SethB]

I thought it was interesting, with a lot of god points, but biased as well.

[czydj]

I read the first 80 pages and scanned the rest. This should be mandatory reading for anyone who thinks the Government should be in charge of our health care or responsible for developing new energy related choices and technologies.

[SCL]

This should be mandatory reading for anyone who thinks the Government should be in charge of our health care or responsible for developing new energy related choices and technologies.


+1000 and a big AMEN to that! Political interests make it nearly imposssible to do anything right - even if it is a "no brainer".

SCL

[Spooky130]

That was very interesting. I was waiting for more info on improved ammo.

Spooky

[DocGKR]

The report has a few technical errors, but the overall theme is right on.

[Neville]

Interesting report! One of the few things to be proud of in recent Austrian military history is small arms development. Our chronically underfunded Army co-developed the Steyr AUG, adopting it in 1977 against much criticism from armchair generals ("imagine- an optical sight for every grunt!! and a bullpup gun out of plastic!!"), and choose the then newly developed Glock over far more conservative & proofen designs in 1980. Guess our lack of modernization of heavy equipment and the realization that Austria would be the first country to be overrun in a Soviet block attack- which would lead to a retreat out of the flat areas and guerilla war in the alps- let us focus more on individual soldiers equipment.

[dewatters]

Mr. Schatz sent me a full copy of the historical background piece "More of the Same Shame" prior to the conference, and I sent him a list of corrections. Many of the corrections didn't make it into the slide show. Dr. Roberts suggested that I should post them.

Pg 46 "1967 -US "Ordnance Department" disbanded/ restructured by SECDEF McNamara after stalling on AR-15 production"

The Ordnance Corps was disbanded in 1962, not 1967. All of the Army's other Technical Services except for the Corps of Engineers and Medical Corps were also disbanded at the same time. The Technical Services lost their materiel functions to the AMC, their training functions to CONARC, and their doctrine formulation functions to to the CDC. The Offices of the Chief of Ordnance and the Chemical Warfare Services were abolished, and their staff functions transferred to the office of the Army's Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics (DCSLOG). AMC was organized initially into five commodity major subordinate commands (MSCs); Electronics Command, Missile Command, Munitions Command, Mobility Command, and Weapons Command; and two functional MSCs; Supply and Maintenance Command (SMC) and Test and Evaluation Command (TECOM). None of this was related to the AR-15. The reorganization traces back to McNamara's Project 80 and the reports of the Hoelscher and Traub Committees. This decision was made by 1961.

Pg 54 "1871 -German Mauser Company develops model 71 bolt-action repeating rifle, later redesigned with a clip-chargeable internal magazine."

The Mauser 1871 was a single-shot. It was later updated with a tube-magazine. The first clip-chargeable Mauser model was the Model 1889.

Pg 55 "1887 -First Maxim Machine Guns ("Devils Paintbrush") appear and are quickly adopted by the British, Russians, Turkey, many others. Used with devastating effect by the Germans against the British in 1899 during the Boer War and during the Russo-Jap War in 1904-05, 27 years before World War I began."

The Boer War was between the British and Boers (settlers of mostly Dutch descent) in what we now know as South Africa.

Pg 56 "1891 -US Army Ordnance Corps Rifle Board solicits industry for new rifles for trails. Not one US design submitted!"

Actually, there were several US designs submitted among the 53 rifle types submitted for the 1892 rifle trials. See Brophy's "The Krag Rifle" for a full list.

Pg 56 "1898 (1 July) -Battle of San Juan Hill, Cuba: 5,000 Americans armed with Krag's engage 700 Spaniards armed with 7mm Mauser bolt-actions firing smokeless-powder "spitzer" bullets."

According to LaGarde, the Spaniards were still using round-nose projectiles. LaGarde claimed that the Turks were the first to use spitzers in combat some 14 years later. One must also remember that only Regular Army troops had the Krag; pretty much everyone else was still stuck with the Trapdoor Springfield.

Pg 57: "Regardless of the brilliance of US-born small arms designers (Browning, Lewis, Maxim, etc.) the US entered WWI with:
-Unreliable French Benet-Mercie M1909 and Chauchat ("Show-Shaw") machine guns
-British P14/17 rifles."

Nitpick: Benet was an American, albeit working in France.

Pg 58: "1918 -J. D. Petersen develops .276 Pedersen cartridge and automatic rifle -42% less recoil than .30 caliber rifle/cartridge."

Actually, 1918 saw the introduction of the "Pedersen Device," a drop-in, semi-auto conversion of the M1903 rifle. However, its cartridge was little more than an elongated .32 ACP. Work on the .276 Pedersen didn't begin until 1923.

Pg 59: "Congress repays John Garand by dropping him from the Armory payroll (a whopping $3600 a year savings to Uncle Sam!)"

Actually, this was just a proposal by a single officer. Ordnance officials slapped it down before it was ever pushed any higher. Garand remained on the payroll until his retirement in 1953.

Pg 60: "Nov. 1992 -German "Kampfgruppe Scherer" surrounded by Russian forces on the Russian front. German Luftwaffe drops MKb42's to the vastly outnumbered unit. German unit breaks out to fight another day. Credit given to the use of the MKb42 in its first appearance on the battlefield."

Typo: Nov. 1942, not 1992.

Pg 61: "1947 -WWII study by General S.L.A. Marshall "Men against Fire" released. Gen. Marshall writes "most officers had little or no knowledge of how their men fought individually that when interviewed knew that as few as 15/100 were doing all the fighting". "The least knowledgeable would be the highest ranking men in the Army and in the place most distant from the battlefield: the Pentagon."

S.L.A. Marshall is a controversial figure, with some now arguing that his work was fraudulent.

Pg. 65: "1958 -.258 caliber (between .22 and .30 caliber) AR-15 proposed by US Army. Eugene Stoner to design it. Cartridge never completed by US Ordnance Department. Effort dropped."

Actually, two 6.35mm cartridges were developed by Ordnance. However, none were ever sent to ArmaLite.

Pg. 67: "15 May 1963 -Springfield Armory changes rifling twist from 1/14" to 1/12" to increase helmet penetration but which reduces also lethality by 40%, just in time for Vietnam!"

Fackler and others may dispute this. You cannot run a rifling twist fast enough to completely stabilize a spitzer projectile in flesh. Interestingly enough, an Aberdeen report in 1930 (reprinted in 1957) established that bullet yaw in a dense medium was independent of the rate of twist. In addition, the M16's twist rate was changed primarily for increase in accuracy and stability in cold weather. The USAF first blew the whistle on the issue.

Pg 70: "Fall 1969 -US Army formally adopts M16A1 and 5.56x45mm cartridge, and for use in Europe."

The M16A1 was formally adopted in February 1967. In 1969, the move was made to convert training over from M14 to M16A1. The decision to equip US troops in Europe was not made until 1970.

Pg 71: "7 May -10 Oct. 1967 -Ichord Congressional Subcommittee formed to investigate M16 issues/combat failures (Mirrors Congressional involvement today!)
-Chief of Ordnance COL Yount blames problems on troop maintenance."

Yount was NOT Chief of Ordnance. He wasn't even the commander of WECOM. Yount was merely Project Manager-AR-15 Rifles.

[Steel_Weasel]

Mr. Schatz sent me a full copy of the historical background piece "More of the Same Shame" prior to the conference, and I sent him a list of corrections. Many of the corrections didn't make it into the slide show. Dr. Roberts suggested that I should post them.



Those "corrections" dont address the biggest problems with that presentation. While the premise is correct, there is so much hyperbole, distortion and cherry picking of details that it pretty much destroys his argument.

[armakraut]

I'm glad someone is out there saying what needs to be said, especially in regards to how quickly changes could be made.

[SethB]

The Jeep was designed in just over a month. The P51 went from the drawing board to flying in 120 days.

The M1 tank was designed when my father was my age. The HMMWV is older than the men who fight from it- a role that it was never designed for.

Why?

[redsox20]

http://www.military.com/news/article/army-taps-industry-for-m4-replacement.html?col=1186032325324

[SethB]

I don't have a lot of faith in that solicitation. Given that the M4 will be up for a recompete in 2009.