Gear advise / critique needed.

[Arch]

I'm just a reasonably fit (as in I'm not overweight, and can sprint 100yds flat out without dying, try to get my 10000 steps in daily, etc) middle aged civilian that likes to shoot, and who wants to stay alive if the INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY happens (home invasion, giant squid raid an arsenal in Antarctica and decide to overrun the midwest in search of Spam, etc). Having said that...

I try to visit the range at least once a week. Some weeks life happens and I don't make it. Other weeks I'm at the range 3 times. I typically don't wear my PC at the range if anyone else is around (obvious reasons). I do always wear my battle belt. I'm trying to schedule trips around low attendance times so I can get more experience wearing the PC (shooting with one on is vastly different than without it). I typically jog the 100 yards back and forth to my target stand so I can get use to wearing what can only be described as uncomfortable gear (I like the feel of the PC until I have to run, squat, breathe deeply, etc).

Over the past couple of years I've been stripping unnecessary stuff from my gear and guns in an effort to be more effective, less tired (which increases my effectiveness) and less mall ninja. In consideration of this...

My field gear consists of:

PLATE CARRIER

+ LBT 6094A PC
+ (Front & Rear) Coated Spartan Plates
+(3) Tactical Tailor "Universal" Rifle Pouches with (2) AR 30rd each
+ TT Hydration Bladder Carrier with 3L Source

BATTLE BELT
(listed left of center around back and ending right of center - I'm right handed)

+ Tactical Tailor Padded MOLLE Belt
+ TT Triple HG Pouch with (2) Glock Mags & Flash Light
+ TT Triple AR Shingle with (2) AR 30rd with the PC or (3) AR 30rd without the PC
+ CSM Dump Pouch
+ Busse Knife
+ Safariland 6004 (held as close to the belt as possible)
+ TT IFAK with (2) Hemostatic + (1) CAT (1 Small) Izzy (I only have trauma gear I know how to use)

Is this overkill? Would you drop the battle belt altogether (and move the knife and IFAK to the PC)? The one place I am not interested in shaving weight is ammo. I've been to enough classes to know it goes quickly when the pressure is on. I see a lot of people with (3) AR mags, and that's great if that makes them happy. Personally, I want as much ammo as I can carry (and 8 spare mags is about my weight limit).

I've even considered ditching a sidearm completely. Is the weight better spent on more AR mags? Classes focus on primary to secondary transitions, etc. However, how many people have actually had to make this transition? Between a Glock 19, (3) mags, mag pouch and holster it is probably the equivalent of 3 or 4 AR 30rd's. (I'd have to weigh it all, but a loaded AR mag is about 17-18 ounces). The one place I see PERSONALLY "needing" a sidearm is inside tight / confined spaces within my home. There is only one ancillary hallway that even remotely begins to approach this threshold. I've walked through enough times to know I can manipulate all doors, etc with my rifle shoulders and controlled with my strong hand (weak hand operates door handle, light switch, etc).

RE: Holsters...

I'm accustomed to the retention system of the 6004 (been using this design for years), but the holster is bulky and heavy. I wear it high so I can only use one leg strap on the thigh shield or I'll end up with nut-crush when I squat down. I've been reading (here and on the general interwebs) about other holster options. I've tried several others, but went back to the 6004 for one reason or another. I'm getting older, more lazy, and more realistic about what my gear is going to be called to do. Therefore, I'm trying to strip off ounces where they can be dropped. Is there a durable holster that has good retention, but at 1/2 the weight of a 6004?

All comments are welcome and appreciated.

[Ironman8]

Personally, I think you've got more AR mags then you need as a civilian. I'm a civilian too, and as such, wouldn't be looking to get in a prolonged firefight. In an EOTWAWKI situation, be light, mobile and only expend the ammo necessary to end the threat right in front of you and extract from the situation. More ammo can always be carried in a third line daypack if you felt the need.

Home defense, realistically, only would need 1-2 mags. I would say two as a minimum just in case a mag fails and you need to get the gun running again. If you need more than two mags in a home defense situation, then you're either doing something wrong, or you have much bigger problems than how much ammo you have on you.

First Line (Belt): 1-2 Primary Mags (I prefer 1) + 1-2 Secondary Mags (Prefer 2)
Second Line (PC): 3-4 Primary Mags (Prefer 3) + 1-2 Secondary Mags (maybe)

For classes, I've never had 4-5 mags not be enough ammo for any phase of the class.

Also, keep the handgun. If the rifle goes down, then what do you do? It's well worth the weight as long as you don't feel the need to carry too many mags.

[Jellybean]

(Front and Rear) coated Spartan Plates.... TT Hydration Bladder Carrier with 3L Source

I think I found where you could save some weight. :p

Drop to 6 AR mags, and that's another 2lbs, while still leaving you enough ammo for any real conceivable situation.
If you can swing the budget, ditch the damn steel plates- If the website is right, you're running 16-18 pounds, coating dependent, of armor with those things. Ouch. The plates I have are 14lb flat *with* the soft backers, and I wish for lighter plates. Drop by AT Armor- there's a couple current options they have that are not to bad pricewise.

Per battle belts, have you seen the AWS LAB Assault belt (Or Ronin tactics)?
I can't say it will *save* weight, but it may cut down some bulk, which will trick your brain into *thinking* it weighs less....;)
2 Rifle, 2 pistol, if you must have a dump, IFAK, pistol, light, multitool or knife. That's all it seems you can conceivably fit on a belt without it becoming pant-saggingly heavy and bulky.
Fair disclosure- I don't run a belt line currently- it's either EDC kit, or Safariland DL and roll-up TT fightlight dump (just in case it's needed). I can't stand all that extra stuff on my waist, and personally I kind of view my "shit kit" as an all-in-one "throw it on and roll" sort of thing. If things are that bad, and it takes me more than 30-60 sec. to grab rifle, kit, and whatever pack is appropriate and GTFO, it's to much hassle. I swear, some folks I've seen it must take 30 minutes to gear up....

Which beings me to an important thought- what you see as a potential situation, and how you plan to respond is going to dictate a LOT how much and where you carry everything.

Water bladder on PC- you can drop to a 2L, save a couple more pounds, and still have enough to keep you going for most of a day by itself. IF you run a pack, you're likely going to have a real unpleasant experience with the way it sits on top of a bladder.... If a pack is in play and you still want water on a PC, maybe consider a bottle of some sort on the cummberbund- Source makes a conversion kit for most common bottle that you can route a drinking tube to. No idea how comfortable that will be, I've never tried it.

Knife on PC- Good luck, especially if it's a larger knife. I've tried a number of knives and carry placement- either I'm doing something wrong, or there is no good place to put the thing where it's either not sticking out awkwardly somewhere, or jabbing you somewhere, or in a spot where you're not going to get sliced or jabbed, or potentially cut your gear off inadvertently when you try to pull it out or re-sheath. Best option I've seen is the Benchmade/Spartan Blades SOCP type, that's not much good for anything aside from a defensive tool.

Per the 6004- yes, they're gonna be a little bulky. You could potentially try a 7TS- I switched to one from a 6395. It may or may not actually *be* less bulky, but it feels that way.

But anyway, 6 Rifle and a 2L bladder will save you 4 pounds or so right away. The rest you're going to have to determine yourself per budget and intended scenario/response.

[HMM]

Civilian here as well. On my PC I run 3 AR mags only and 1 AR taco on my belt. 2 pistol mags on my belt as well. Been more than enough for the classes I've taken.

[Arch]

Thank you for the responses. The general consensus is to save weight by carrying less ammo.

Jellybean had some nice recommendations with regards to the 3L bladder, and weight of my plates. I use to carry a 1L Nalgene in a pouch on my belt, but started using hydration bladders several years ago. You're correct about over-rucking them too. I looked at the recommended belt, and like it a lot. Based upon the website I'm a little uncertain as to what they mean my "molle panels". Do they slip over the belt? I really don't want to purchase an entire new set of pouches so the ability to attach my existing stuff to a new belt is more appealing. I wasn't aware of the 7TS option. I'm going to try to find one locally to inspect. The design is what I was after - solid 6004 retention but less bulk / wasted sidearm protection. The recommended plates are sold out. I've used ceramic LIV (SKD sourced) and they were lighter and more comfortable. I may need to suck it up and just spend the money on lighter plates.

Regarding a knife on a PC..I agree it has to be a small knife. I've had one zip tied (the sheath) horizontally at the chest area where a lot of people carry their handgun mags. The knife was a 3.5" blade and it worked okay, but it did have a tendency to hang up in my rifle sling.

I had my belt out last night in preparation of range work tomorrow. I'm going to keep working through the issues until I'm satisfied.

[DevL]

I run 3 mags on chest. ANYTHING more is way too thick. I run one on left. That's 4. THE left on belt is Emmdom universal, so it can hold 2 if needed. I have a second one on the left for radio on belt (Motorola APX 6000) as its a great universal radio pouch for radios without exposed buttons. IF I do not have a radio, or run one on plate carrier that's an additional 1 or 2 mags. My belt is a Volundgearworks but I swapping due to a speed of donning issue to something similar but with no internal loops. That covers the ammo issue.

I run 3+ plates. 5 pounds each. The muticurve shape and padding alone is a comfort game changer. I run a JPC. It's less bulky than your carrier. I use a 2L bladder, because of weight. I don't hold water if I need a pack, because my pack has a 3L. I only have a minimalist dump pouch, a BFG. It's really small and light, but it is rarely used. I run an IFAK on my belt, plus another on my carrier. My thought is the IFAK is more important than everything else but comms and ammo. I run one on lower back on belt, which gives low back support to match rear plate thickness in a car seat, and another on left cummerbund close to front. I run 2 knives, a folder, strong side front pocket clipped in (AXIS lock) and SOPC dagger behind a mag up front. I run a CAT up front, right side cummerbund, SOFTW rear. I have 2 IFAK, 2 TQ, water, 8 mag potential but only run 1 in gun, 1 in belt, 3 on chest. It is really quite light and comfortable. My helmet, belt, carrier, and long gun are a sub 60 second proposition. I can wear them for hours no problem. I had steel plates at first too... it was horrible... they would bonk my head when throwing carrier over my head, would bust my chin when I'd shrug hard to adjust it, didn't confirm and made the back of carrier stick out, and just generally sucked for comfort. I'd suggest dropping your retention type and go ALS vs SLS. ALS rides lower due to higher mount point capability with no hood bolts on holster, is less bulk, faster, etc. Plus it auto locks when handgun goes back in. With a low 2"drop plate directly on a low profile belt, you can run a single leg strap from your current thigh rig, run between the upper and lower mounting bolts and have a much less bulky thigh rig with no thigh plate. Just keep strap only tight enough to stop side flop, it's rigid so no front back rotation is possible. Hope this helps.

[militarymoron]

Civilian here as well. On my PC I run 3 AR mags only and 1 AR taco on my belt. 2 pistol mags on my belt as well. Been more than enough for the classes I've taken.

Is that for the entire duration of the class or just for each phase of drills? Depending on the imagined scenario, there might not be the luxury of a reload/water break to replenish resources.

[HMM]

Is that for the entire duration of the class or just for each phase of drills? Depending on the imagined scenario, there might not be the luxury of a reload/water break to replenish resources.

That was for each phase. We did a lot of focusing on reloading drills so we didn't load full mags. Lots of reloading practice...only 4 rds in each mag for pistol. I had a stack of mags on hot standby.

I did however get mixed up and loaded an empty mag in my pistol and put an empty on my belt mid way through one class. Was first up for the lights out drill, as soon as he said go I turned towards the target area and was walking to the spot to engage with my flash light and click - nothing. A bad word was heard as I stowed the light in my arm pit, performed a fast reload that felt like ages and then a click again... More bad words and that's when the laughing started from the instructor and the rest of my group. Only positive was the fluid reload and mag manipulation trying to get back in play. Even though it felt like an eternity as it was happening, during the review it was actually pretty fast. I think I learned more from that mistake than anything else that night.

[militarymoron]

I only brought that up to illustrate a point that as a civilian, it's really difficult to predict what kind of real situation all this tactical gear would be used in, so there's no telling what really will be 'enough' or 'too much'.
'Training as you fight' is easier to define for military and LE with better defined situations, and standard equipment/loadouts that match the mission. But for us civilians, what is that mission going to be? There are pages upon pages of speculation and discussion about the right loadout for civilians in different scenarios, with a lot of good information, but it still ends up being rather vague as to what situation we might end up in that requires the use of this equipment or skills.

I just think it makes sense to vary whatever you wear in practice; focus on the fundamental skills first, then 'scale up' to address different imagined needs. I shoot both in minimal gear and full gear; just because I have the opportunity to, and to see what the ins and outs of different combinations are. But to be honest, if I imagine a situation where I'll need a carbine, I'm guessing that it's going to be more 'low profile' and discreet than jocked up in MultiCam. Gear requirements for urban environments can differ greatly from rural ones.

As a hobbyist shooter, I've learned that the first weight that needs to be dropped is your own. Then evaluate your gear to see what's really necessary.

[Arch]

The one area I'm not interested in losing weight is ammo reserves. If you cannot think of a sceranio wherein mo' ammo is betta' ammo I personally don't believe you've thought through many further reaching scenarios.

The average home invasion isn't going to take much, but think outside the box.

I shoot with a guy that wears shorts and flip flops to the range. He sticks a spare mag in his pocket. Do you think he'll be as effective as a person who trains with adequate fighting gear?

[Arch]

(You're suppose to extrapolate the last statement to a person training with 3 mags compared to a person rolling with full battle rattle).

I agree with MM's varied suggestion as a civilian depending on your (and put some thought into this) threat assessment. Low Pro only applies if you must be "out" while some nastiness is going about. I'd rather be bunkered and ready for a full assault.

[Ironman8]

OK so what is your perceived battle scenario where you need 8 mags (or 240 rds) of ammo?

Ultimately I'm not the one that has to carry your load out so do what you want, but you did ask for suggestions.

[HMM]

Oh I totally agree, I didn't carry a spare mag until a few years ago. And a lot of the training I've done has involved more gear than I would ever have on me or in the truck even. The only flash light I carry is the one on my phone but I've taken a few classes that required a light (which I used one instead of my phone). I do have one on the night stand and on my bed side gun but never with me on my person. I learned real quick that my weapon light holster sucked balls so I switched out after the first run and didn't use the rail light for the rest of the evening. I also didn't wear a plate carrier until the last class we were doing, it was centered on room clearing so we were "geared up" more than usual. Thankfully my group was all people I worked with but it was still an odd feeling knowing you were stacked up and all had a pistol drawn and sucked in tight on your chest pointed down. We did run the drill dry with plastic guns a few times and then went live once we were comfortable.

I have enjoyed every training class and have learned a lot each one. I've learned what I like and what works for me, example I learned in that last class that I do not like trying to reload from a plate carrier. I'm sure there is an art but I'm not there yet. And they suck moving in. Thankfully I'm in great shape for my age so the weight wasn't the issue but getting out of a car, drawing a pistol and being in awkward firing positions definitely was different than doing the same drill without one. Same with where I wore my mags, it's way easier for me to reload with them over my front left pocket than it is beside me (9 o'clock) but not as comfortable sitting or coming out of a car quickly. Now for CC I carry a snag mag holder for a spare mag, seems easier for my than carrying a spare under my shirt on my left hip.

Basically for me it's good to train both ways because eventually I want to shoot 3 gun or IDPA. And I'll be switching locations for mags and such that are quicker depending on the course than I would be in some training classes. I still haven't changed to a full sized carry gun or incorporated a flash light in my EDC. Probably will not ever, I'm a flip flop and jeans guy and I blend well with the rest of the yuppies.

[Arch]

Our farm is 32 minutes from an incorporated town and .7 miles down a private wooded gravel road. We had a meth cooker accidentally explode a "lab" or whatever they call them he had built in our "neighbor's" barn. When their 1000 gallon propane tank exploded it woke us. We called it in, and had to direct the FD to the property. Response was VERY SLOW.

The point is - not everyone lives in a sub-division with 3 min response time. Some people will have to fend for themselves for a while during who knows what.

[Ironman8]

My loadout isn't dependent on police response time. Especially not for the civil unrest type of scenarios that we are discussing here.

[Ironman8]

I agree with MM where you have to be able to scale up or down depending on the situation. Covert/Concealed vs Overt. I happen to consider my loadout as somewhat the midpoint of those where I can scale down to slick concealable armor and a rifle in a backpack if necessary or scale up with a 3rd line that carries extra mags and whatever else.

Either way, my tactics would reflect the fact that I don't have a fireteam doing fire and maneuver techniques with me.

[militarymoron]

OK so what is your perceived battle scenario where you need 8 mags (or 240 rds) of ammo?

Ultimately I'm not the one that has to carry your load out so do what you want, but you did ask for suggestions.

Who knows - but maybe that's ALL you had a chance to grab before you had to leave your house/area for good...never to return. I lean more towards Arch's feeling that more ammo is better than less, but that's just my 'better to have and not need than need and not have' nature. No, maybe 8 mags isn't needed, but I'd sure like to have 4-6 with a couple of bandoleers in a backpack if chance of resupply is nil, as well as food and water.

Again, I've gone through a list of realistic (which means no zombies) possible scenarios in my vivid imagination, and living in a major city, there's little chance of me 'bugging out' as it'd be gridlock for miles. Staying home with the family and helping the neighbourhood defend itself from looters etc. seems like a more possible scenario.

As I mentioned before, I think it's prudent to train with the 'nightstand/home intruder' setup as well as the 'bug out/civil unrest/nuclear war' setup, and whatever in-between so at least you know how to use the gear, where to position it, etc. Can you access everything and use it in the dark? Try going through a class carrying everything you need (ammo, food, water) on you without having to walk back to the car/bench to resupply. I did that once. It was hard. That's when you realize that even going for a few hours without water affects you more than having to conserve ammo. But I knew my equipment well enough and was physically fit enough to make it through without standing out as 'that guy' fighting his equipment and fumbling about.

I think it basically boils down to three main scenarios for the civilian (besides the home intruder): stay at home and defend/survive (resupply is possible when you come home from scrounging); bug out for good with time to prepare (like whatever you can throw in your vehicle); bug out with all you can carry on your back. Each one of those situations will require different gear, and it's going to vary depending on where you live. So, there's not going to be one right answer. Again, with us civilians, figuring out what that 'fight' is going to end up looking like is the real challenge in 'train as you fight'.

Arch, in my vividly imagined loadouts, I don't include a pistol if I'm trying to be mobile; I'd rather have more ammo for the carbine. I can't imagine where a pistol would be better than a carbine if both were working. A pistol is good to have if you can't carry the carbine, or to give to someone else in need of a weapon. I also don't have a large combat/fighting knife. Instead, I have a leatherman wave or swiss tool spirit (one of my fave multitools).

As for gear, I really think that a scaleable set up makes sense; made up of modular components that are designed to be scaled up or down, and work well together. It's my feeling that the further you are away from built-up areas and you're on foot, the less need there is to have a plate carrier (just a chest rig or bandoleer might do). By the way, I'm just a regular guy who hasn't been there/done that, so take whatever I say with that in mind. I've just thought about this stuff for a while.

Some of that thinking is reflected in some of the products I've designed for EMDOM, like the TNT GYM bag (warning: shameless plug here):
http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/packs4.html#tntgym

It's basically designed with the civilian in mind that might have to transport a carbine and gear discreetly, in plain sight (there are a lot of bug out bags out there, but what if you have to conceal your carbine?). I can fit a carbine, chest rig and other essentials in what looks like a gym bag, but is built to carry the weight and not print.

The TNT bag, as another example, is a bag I designed as a bug-out bag, where you do have the luxury of openly carrying a carbine and needed a bag you can use in place of a chest rig to fight out of (easily accessible magazines). This the bag I used to run an entire class out of without ammo or water resupply:
http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/packs3.html#tnt

Anyway, I wanted to use the two products above to illustrate that I've given the subject of civilian weapon/gear needs in (insert the situation here) some (hopefully practical) thought over the years.

[Ironman8]

I guess that's what's missing: context. If crap hits the fan, I won't be bugging out. I'm also around a large metropolitan area (on the outskirts) and to me, the name of the game would be staying low profile when out and avoiding a gunfight. If the need for full overt kit arises, I would still be avoiding a fight if possible and still aim for light and mobile.

[militarymoron]

Ironman8 - my situation echos your thoughts. I agree.

[Six Feet Under]

I guess that's what's missing: context. If crap hits the fan, I won't be bugging out. I'm also around a large metropolitan area (on the outskirts) and to me, the name of the game would be staying low profile when out and avoiding a gunfight. If the need for full overt kit arises, I would still be avoiding a fight if possible and still aim for light and mobile.

Same here, minus the large metropolitan area.

I gave up the SHTF fantasies of having rolling gun fights with mobs of zombies where I'd burn through eight mags and not get shot when I was about... 18.

My work PC has three rifle mags and no pistol mag pouches, although I may add a single or double taco just for the times I use it outside of work for fun. If I can't get the job done with 120 rounds of 5.56 and 46-76 rounds of .40 in anything short of a full-on Mumbai kind of attack, I probably should've waited for other officers to show up. LOL