View Full Version : New Springfield Armory AR
Saw this on another forum. Springfield Armory is releasing a new AR that the specs actually look pretty good for the budget guns. MSRP of 899.
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/10/31/springfield-armory-saint-revealed/
he upper and lower receivers are Type III hard anodized 7075 T6 aluminum, the upper receiver BCG bore and extension tube bore are coated with dry film lubricant, the upper includes M4 feed ramps and an “Accu-Tite Tension System” utilizes a nylon tipped tension screw between the upper and lower receivers to eliminate play and improve accuracy.
The 16″ barrel is made of Chrome Moly Vanadium with a 5.56 NATO chamber and a 1:8 RH twist. The chamber, bore and external surfaces are coated with a Melonite finish, including under the front sight base.
The rifle uses a mid-length gas system with a “H” heavy tungsten buffer. This combination is engineered to improve function, reduce wear on internal parts, and reduce felt recoil.
The furniture is provided by Bravo Company and includes their six-position butt stock, exclusive PKMR handguard with KeyMod attachment points, Mod 3 pistol grip, and Bravo Company oversize trigger-guard.
Although optic-ready, the SAINT is ready to go out of the box with a “F” height front sight with 2 MOA adjustment and a Springfield Armory low profile, flip-up, dual aperture rear sight with 1/2 MOA windage adjustment.
The carbine uses a M16 bolt carrier group which has been shot peened and magnetic particle inspected to met mil-spec requirements. The gas key is hardened and staked and the extractor spring is installed with a o-ring for consistent extraction. The trigger is an enhanced single-stage GI type with a nickel boron coating.
Here is the Guns America Review (https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/introducing-springfield-armory-saint-ar-15-clays-full-review-mag-dumps-torture-tests-silly-man-tricks/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=20161101_SpringfieldSaintg&utm_campaign=/blog/introducing-springfield-armory-saint-ar-15-clays-full-review-mag-dumps-torture-tests-silly-man-tricks/) and here is the product page (http://www.springfield-armory.com/saint-series/)
Looks like they did lots of things right, plus, the BCM KMR handguard is CLOSER!
Looks like they did lots of things right, plus, the BCM KMR handguard is CLOSER!
It's the PKMR hand guard and they melted. But he did claim to dump like 8 or 10 mags in 10 min.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/31/revealing-the-springfield-armory-saint-part-1-
contax_shooter
11-01-16, 05:43
Pretty good looking specs, looks like they are competing with S&W with features relevant in the current market.
Need to see one in person but it looks ok on paper for a budget AR. Be interesting to see street price.
You can get a Colt 6920/6720 for the same money as the SAINT MSRP right now. If you can only have one, which would you choose?
Furbyballer
11-01-16, 06:18
Looks pretty good for a basic entry AR, especially since it comes with iron sights. Now we need some people to run these hard for about a year to find out if they are worth it. I really thought the saint was going to be a new pistol since the AR market was so saturated already.
How long till we start to see pics with the GIANT logos colored in white or red?
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They released the SAINT on Saint's Day... How cute.
So the Saint was just another AR for a market saturated with ARs? Well, at least they got the parts on it right and made it a midlength. For what you get, the price is okay. The barrel seems to be where they skimped.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure SAINT is an acronym for something.
Springfield Armory something something something....
Does anyone have any ideas?
EDIT: S.A. Independent National Trainers.
You can get a Colt 6920/6720 for the same money as the SAINT MSRP right now. If you can only have one, which would you choose?
Colt if you can find one
Singlestack Wonder
11-01-16, 08:09
So springfield releases their first AR style rifle with some features duplicating the top tier Colt, BCM, and Daniel Defense offerings? Why not buy one of the originals they are attempting to duplicate?
TTAG published their hands on.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/11/jeremy-s/hands-springfield-armory-saint/
Colt if you can find one
Now I want to ask 6920 Magpul edition or 6720, but that's off topic I guess
SomeOtherGuy
11-01-16, 08:28
So the Saint was just another AR for a market saturated with ARs? Well, at least they got the parts on it right and made it a midlength. For what you get, the price is okay. The barrel seems to be where they skimped.
This. While it's a decent feature set for the price, I'm not seeing anything even slightly interesting.
I would have been much more interested to see a well-engineered, ultra lightweight updated M1A, or an import of some cool foreign gun that we don't otherwise get (like Springfield Armory did a long, long time ago with FAL and G3 type rifles), etc.
Not impressed with the "SAINT" acronym either. Trying WAY too hard.
Here we go with the Melonite crap again. Stop it, just please stop it! Get off your cheap arses and CHROME LINE the barrel!
This. While it's a decent feature set for the price, I'm not seeing anything even slightly interesting.
What it boils down to, for me at least, is that this rifle isn't proven and looks like a range toy. For the money, I can build some really nice rifles, using parts that I would actually trust my life with. My current build is right under $900, and features a 15" Geissele Mk8, Ballistic Advantage Hanson Barrel, BCM BCG, and has B5 Systems furniture. The SAINT looks like a ripoff compared to that.
KalashniKEV
11-01-16, 08:48
Looks like they did lots of things right, plus, the BCM KMR handguard is CLOSER!
Keymod is dead.
Keymod is dead.
Also two of them melted during the event.
TexasAggie2005
11-01-16, 09:00
Also two of them melted during the event.
Well, to be fair, Magpul's polymer handguard are known to catch fire during multiple mag dumps too.
But, that BCM handguard is butt ugly IMHO.
Ned Christiansen
11-01-16, 09:06
Good on Springfield, says me. I also thought this was gonna be an XD, having given up a long time ago on them bringing an AR out!
This is the first time I've really gone to TTAG and read something through, and I find it well written and not sounding like punches pulled "in consideration of". SA must have made everyone sign some pretty strict NDA's, this was one well and long-kept secret! OR maybe there were, um, pics from the after party :-)
SA does a lot of things right. Like everyone else, the don't do everything right, especially when doing it for the first time. That HG issue to me is pretty minor as few will melt it, and many will change it. I would not be surprised though if they start coming with something else before many get out there.
As to individual likes / dislikes regarding features and cosmetics, SA showing up late for the show and all that, my thought is, more on the market benefits us all, especially when it comes from someone this big and this tenured in the industry.
What I really like is that it's pretty plain Jane and not all over tacktickelized and whiz-banged up with nonstandardness.
If I see one and it sucks I'll call it out but meanwhile I say welcome to the market.
Good on Springfield, says me. I also thought this was gonna be an XD, having given up a long time ago on them bringing an AR out!
This is the first time I've really gone to TTAG and read something through, and I find it well written and not sounding like punches pulled "in consideration of". SA must have made everyone sign some pretty strict NDA's, this was one well and long-kept secret! OR maybe there were, um, pics from the after party :-)
SA does a lot of things right. Like everyone else, the don't do everything right, especially when doing it for the first time. That HG issue to me is pretty minor as few will melt it, and many will change it. I would not be surprised though if they start coming with something else before many get out there.
As to individual likes / dislikes regarding features and cosmetics, SA showing up late for the show and all that, my thought is, more on the market benefits us all, especially when it comes from someone this big and this tenured in the industry.
What I really like is that it's pretty plain Jane and not all over tacktickelized and whiz-banged up with nonstandardness.
If I see one and it sucks I'll call it out but meanwhile I say welcome to the market.
Completely agree
Why a 1:8 barrel though? At that price point I'd spend a little more for a 6920. If they'd have gone 1:7, ditched the delta ring and put a better handguard it would be a lot better gun. I think
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Vegasshooter
11-01-16, 09:16
Absolutely agree with Ned. Looks like a decent rifle. I will say that the staking on the gas key and the castle nut is complete clown shoes though. That is easily remedied with a MOAKS tool. That looks like a miss though.
All in all, I say good deal. The market always has room for an entry level, decently appointed rifle. If the statistics bear out to be correct, many will be sold and shot 50-100 rounds, and put away. Better to have another choice in these times though. I find it interesting that they debuted when they did. With the election right around the corner, I think they will sell as many as they can get out right now. In 10 days or so, things may be harder to aquire.
I'd buy one if I was in the market. IF.... ��
I think it's cool enough.
Why a 1:8 barrel though? At that price point I'd spend a little more for a 6920. If they'd have gone 1:7, ditched the delta ring and put a better handguard it would be a lot better gun. I think
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Most people shoot light 55gr bullets and the guns that I own that are 1:8 are very accurate with 55gr.
Better handguard as in a free float? That would have had a significant effect on the price.
Mrgunsngear
11-01-16, 09:29
If it comes in on the street at $800 or less they won't be able to keep them in stock.
NWcityguy2
11-01-16, 09:29
1:8 twist will shoot every bullet that is meant to be seated to magazine length. It looks fine, is spec'ed about the same as a PSA/S&W/Aero, and comes froma good company. There are a number of things that they could of done different to stand out, like a unique barrel profile, muzzle device or charging handle. But then again, buying the same parts that everyone else buys is cheaper than spec'ing something new. At least they upgraded the furniture.
It's another rifle that won't do anything different than a (INSERT RIFLE BRAND HERE) that has iron sights attached to it, but options are always good.
Good on Springfield, says me. I also thought this was gonna be an XD, having given up a long time ago on them bringing an AR out!
This is the first time I've really gone to TTAG and read something through, and I find it well written and not sounding like punches pulled "in consideration of". SA must have made everyone sign some pretty strict NDA's, this was one well and long-kept secret! OR maybe there were, um, pics from the after party :-)
SA does a lot of things right. Like everyone else, the don't do everything right, especially when doing it for the first time. That HG issue to me is pretty minor as few will melt it, and many will change it. I would not be surprised though if they start coming with something else before many get out there.
As to individual likes / dislikes regarding features and cosmetics, SA showing up late for the show and all that, my thought is, more on the market benefits us all, especially when it comes from someone this big and this tenured in the industry.
What I really like is that it's pretty plain Jane and not all over tacktickelized and whiz-banged up with nonstandardness.
If I see one and it sucks I'll call it out but meanwhile I say welcome to the market.
Couldn't have said it better.
If it comes in on the street at $800 or less they won't be able to keep them in stock.
Unfortunately, I fear the folks buying them are people that don't know any better. Good on Springfield for marketing something right before the great panic of 2016/2017. However, for that price, the OEM style rifles still look really good. A local is saying they will be between $8-900, but articles are showing around the $750 mark. Regardless, the only real competition this thing has are similar offerings from Ruger, DPMS, Bushmaster, and surprisingly Armalite.
SomeOtherGuy
11-01-16, 09:59
Why a 1:8 barrel though?
Because none of us are going to shoot M856 tracer at -50 degrees, and for all other loads that fit into a magazine 1:8 is just fine and possibly better. (See post #28 also.)
I was there at the media event in Vegas. Here is the video of some guy named Grant T winning the "Popper Palooza" event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w76xQEcTSmw
C4
Why a 1:8 barrel though? At that price point I'd spend a little more for a 6920. If they'd have gone 1:7, ditched the delta ring and put a better handguard it would be a lot better gun. I think
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The 1/8 twist is really the best way to go as you get the most flexibility.
The BCM HG's are excellent and also help keep the price point down.
C4
Also two of them melted during the event.
Any HG would have melted after 8-10 mag dumps.
C4
MSparks909
11-01-16, 10:24
On the "Popper Palooza" event, was it the same gun ran for all the shooters? How many total mags were fired? Was the gun cleaned/oiled at all during the Palooza?
On the "Popper Palooza" event, was it the same gun ran for all the shooters? How many total mags were fired? Was the gun cleaned/oiled at all during the Palooza?
No. Everyone used their own gun (which were all set up the same). You had exactly 120rds (4 mags) available. I cannot say what the other folks did, but I lubed my gun at the beginning of the day. No cleaning kits were available so I do not think anyone cleaned their AR's.
C4
Are these made in the US?
Are these made in the US?
Yes.
C4
The 1/8 twist is really the best way to go as you get the most flexibility.
The BCM HG's are excellent and also help keep the price point down.
C4
Good shooting. For a first AR, what is your take on it? I know a few guys who need to get into the AR game for a budget price. It looks like it has the M&P 15 beat.
May be just me, but looks like they did a collaboration with Aero Precision and BCM. The receiver set tensioners and the melonite CMV barrel may be the signs of Aero Precision and Ballistic Advantage, also an Aero Precision owned company. I wonder if the barrel is 4140 CMV or 4150 CMV? If it is Ballistic Advantage, I would guess 4150. I guess there may be other manufacturers that incorporate the receiver tensioners, but seems like it would be reasonable to go with Aero Precision for both their receivers and barrels. If anything, for logistics. Aero makes good stuff anyhow.
WickedWillis
11-01-16, 10:54
Is it made in Croatia? :cool: What terrible timing to release a new rifle for your company though, hopefully they get them in stores in large quantity very soon, for their sakes. The name sucks too. You can buy this and that new Walther and start your own crusade or holy war! "Creed on my hip, Saint in my hands"
Good shooting. For a first AR, what is your take on it? I know a few guys who need to get into the AR game for a budget price. It looks like it has the M&P 15 beat.
I would take it over a S&W (easy choice). I am not sure what the street price is going to be, but if it is going to be under $800, then I would pick one up (especially if you are a SA fan).
C4
Good shooting. For a first AR, what is your take on it? I know a few guys who need to get into the AR game for a budget price. It looks like it has the M&P 15 beat.
For basic, entry level, I think the Aero Precision AC-15 or AC-15m are tough to beat. They disclose the barrel steel, bolt and carriers are all made with propper specs and metals. I don't own an Aero Precision build, but if I were looking to just start, that is probably who I would go with for $560. No reason to buy the S&W.
May be just me, but looks like they did a collaboration with Aero Precision and BCM. The receiver set tensioners and the melonite CMV barrel may be the signs of Aero Precision and Ballistic Advantage, also an Aero Precision owned company. I wonder if the barrel is 4140 CMV or 4150 CMV? If it is Ballistic Advantage, I would guess 4150. I guess there may be other manufacturers that incorporate the receiver tensioners, but seems like it would be reasonable to go with Aero Precision for both their receivers and barrels. If anything, for logistics. Aero makes good stuff anyhow.
Barrel is 4150.
C4
WickedWillis
11-01-16, 10:56
May be just me, but looks like they did a collaboration with Aero Precision and BCM. The receiver set tensioners and the melonite CMV barrel may be the signs of Aero Precision and Ballistic Advantage, also an Aero Precision owned company. I wonder if the barrel is 4140 CMV or 4150 CMV? If it is Ballistic Advantage, I would guess 4150. I guess there may be other manufacturers that incorporate the receiver tensioners, but seems like it would be reasonable to go with Aero Precision for both their receivers and barrels. If anything, for logistics. Aero makes good stuff anyhow.
Makes me wonder if BCM waited to release their handguards because of this?
Barrel is 4150.
C4
That's what I figured, thanks Grant.
Grant, are you going to be carrying these?
crusader377
11-01-16, 11:06
The Springfield Saint looks like a great gun and even though it is budget priced at $899 there doesn't seem anything budget about it.
Grant, are you going to be carrying these?
I just got my pricing and yes, we have placed an order for them. We will be offering them for under $800 I believe.
C4
NWcityguy2
11-01-16, 11:22
You've got to consider that AR prices have been atypical for the past four years, either being deflated or massively inflated. Plus the gun is new, plus MSRP isn't designed to reflect political influences. Let the price settle and then compare it to whatever the market standards rifles are selling for, then deside how much of a bargain it is.
An AR being offered with this list of features for under $800 street, backed by Springfield's customer service is a Good Thing
An AR being offered with this list of features for under $800 street, backed by Springfield's customer service is a Good Thing
This was the first time I have met anyone from SA. Let me say that from the CEO on down, these people are SUPER nice and professional. In the firearms industry, this is NOT the norm.
C4
I'm honestly pretty impressed. I was expecting something along the lines of Ruger or DPMS, but it appears to be a pretty solid offering for the price range. I'm glad to see they worked with a company as reputable as BCM regarding the furniture. I don't have a big issue with the melonite or 1/8 twist. I'm also glad to see a middy gas system with an H buffer. I think they did a great job for their first AR, especially considering their target consumers. I think these things will sell like hot cakes.
This was the first time I have met anyone from SA. Let me say that from the CEO on down, these people are SUPER nice and professional. In the firearms industry, this is NOT the norm.
C4
Nobody would rag on Springfield Armory if they never made the XD. I've shot a number of XD's in my lifetime, and while I don't care for them, I've never touted Springfield Armory (the company itself) as junk. I think SA is pulling a smart move releasing this before the panic gets exponentially worse.
556BlackRifle
11-01-16, 12:57
They make some great 1911s, why not an AR? Doubt I'll buy one but if they're doing it right, more power to them.
john armond
11-01-16, 13:02
One of the linked articles on the first page (the firearm blog) lists the rear sight as a "UTG PRO" but the other links list it as a "Springfield" sight. Am I to assume the rear sight is just a re-branded UTG? I understand this is a part that will more than likely get replaced, but was just curious.
MountainRaven
11-01-16, 13:20
Looks like they did lots of things right, plus, the BCM KMR handguard is CLOSER!
Makes me wonder if BCM waited to release their handguards because of this?
The description says that the PKMR handguards are exclusive, so I wouldn't get my hopes up of ever seeing them outside the secondary market for a year or more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=824unjHp12A
C4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=824unjHp12A
C4
Is this more fun stuff you got to do? Paint me green sir
Here we go with the Melonite crap again. Stop it, just please stop it! Get off your cheap arses and CHROME LINE the barrel!
I like chrome lined barrels too, but what's wrong with melonite?
Keymod is dead. Mine still works fine.
Is this more fun stuff you got to do? Paint me green sir
Yep. Some really cool stuff.
C4
Personally I think they paid attention to the parts and pieces and the market. I like the trigger (I think, not having tried it) and barrel. It shows they were trying. No one makes the Cadillac at this price point, but it is good and will work. I am building two right now so not in the market, but I'd buy one otherwise.
The MSRP on this is $899, and if the Smith Sport II and Ruger AR556 are any indication, you're looking at roughly $749-799 retail. That's about $100 or so more than the typical retail price of either the Smith or the Ruger. For that $100 extra, out of the box you get a mid-length (which everyone seems to argue is ideal for a 16" barrel), and instead of the A2 grip and M4 stock that most will replace anyway, you get a very good grip and stock (worth about $85 combined), a FA bolt carrier and H-buffer ($200), and what looks to be a trigger comparable to the PNT from BCM (about $45 I think -- and given the obvious affiliation between BCM and Springfield on this gun, it may in fact be pretty much the same trigger). I think all in all that's a pretty good deal. The only thing I see in the "budget" or "entry-level" AR market right now with comparable specs (but still a commercial BCG) is the Smith MOE mid-length, and the best price I can find on those is over $1000. I find the giant "SAINT" on the receiver a bit much, but not as bothersome as the "Magpul" forever carved into the Smith mid-length receiver. I like Magpul stuff as much as the next guy, but not on my receiver. Also, for purely aesthetic reasons, I'd probably swap out the Saint's handguards for something else.
I might look at one, but for now I can't get past the giant "SAINT" on the side of the rifle. [emoji107]
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Mine still works fine.
Kev's just being a troll. :)
Here we go with the Melonite crap again. Stop it, just please stop it! Get off your cheap arses and CHROME LINE the barrel!
I am not sure what is wrong with Melonite either.
So I'm assuming that was you Grant winning the rifle? You don't look anything like I imagined hahaha.
Nice to see who has been getting my money.
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titsonritz
11-01-16, 14:29
The description says that the PKMR handguards are exclusive, so I wouldn't get my hopes up of ever seeing them outside the secondary market for a year or more.
I've already been waiting too long, if this is the case I'll be moving on to something else.
So I'm assuming that was you Grant winning the rifle? You don't look anything like I imagined hahaha.
Nice to see who has been getting my money.
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Yep, that is me. You also see my wife shooing in that video (and beating several of the male gun writers to boot)! I also had no idea that they would use my comments at the end (as they interviewed everyone). That was pretty cool. I have to admit though, I was on the range all day, hot and tired to say the least.
C4
I like chrome lined barrels too, but what's wrong with melonite?
The only stuck case I've ever had with an AR was in a nitrided barrel. Several stuck cases as a matter of fact. Steel cased Wolf 5.45x39. Yeah, I know it was steel cased ammo but there isn't any brass 5.45x39. Same ammo did NOT stick in a chrome lined S&W MP15R I had.
Need more? All the big time players---Colt, BCM, Knight's, DD---all chrome line barrels. Yes, DD did the nitride thing for a while but they don't now from what I've heard.
I know Sionics does both, chrome and melonite, at least they used to.
ColtSeavers
11-01-16, 15:05
Don't care one way or another as I roll my own. I will say anyone butthurt over melonite/qpq/nitride barrel needs a laxative.
Don't care one way or another as I roll my own. I will say anyone butthurt over melonite/qpq/nitride barrel needs a laxative.
Don't need another AR and if I did it wouldn't be this one. Butthurt is a figment of your imagination. Have at it if you like; I'll pass.
BTW, ring me when the world's first military adopts a front-line weapon with a nitrided barrel. Not some police agency, but a military.
I might look at one, but for now I can't get past the giant "SAINT" on the side of the rifle. [emoji107]
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Give it 6 months & they will probably start leaving it off.
Colt 6720 = $900 shipped
SA "Saint" = $800??? Shipped
Work an extra shift and buy the Colt. Otherwise, regardless of what you tell yourself now ... you'll always question your decision later.
I recently (within the last month or two) bought several 6720 from Grant for $899 plus shipping. I don't have to question the quality, materials, KNOWLEDGE BASE of the "manufacturer", etc.
With Colt's race to the bottom pricing I'm really surprised SA entered the AR15 market. Frankly, I can only surmise other manufacturers are capitalizing on the wide spread popularity of the design, general lack of knowledge about what sets one apart from another, and general population's: A) interest in buying something that LOOKS as good as something else for A LITTLE LESS MONEY; B) lack of interest in actually shooting their guns enough to experience any issue with their purchase.
SA is new to the AR15 market. That doesn't mean they'll make a bad product, but its not like this will be $350 less than a similarly equipped Colt. I've owned lots of SA products over the years. I've had more M1As than I care to admit. Only a few had to go back to the factory.
NWcityguy2
11-01-16, 15:54
What makes anyone think that Springfield will increase market availabilities of the AR when it is doubtful the are making any, or all, of the parts themselves? When demand ramps up, and any one given part runs out, it doesn't matter how many brands are selling that part as their own.
What makes anyone think that Springfield will increase market availabilities of the AR when it is doubtful the are making any, or all, of the parts themselves? When demand ramps up, and any one given part runs out, it doesn't matter how many brands are selling that part as their own.
My experience with their M1A spans the better part of 20 years. The earlier guns I owned (serial numbers in the 70-90k range) had lots of USGI parts and the SA, Inc parts seemed ... acceptable. The later guns had more cast parts of varying quality. I finally gave up on the M1A (they were always a range toy, but I had a soft spot for them because my father's reaction to them ... he went through Marine basic with a M14 before getting issued a M16 in Vietnam). I know I'm talking apples vs volkswagans, but isn't SA, Inc known for building M1As? As quality parts became harder for them to obtain (or they ran out of their reserves) the quality of their rifles decreased. I had two that needed new receivers (one was so out of spec the bolt roller would jump the track), and had two cracked bolts (after they went to "commercial" bolts).
If this is indicative of what they'll do in the AR market space - no thank you.
I'm a gun snob, but I've earned it by WASTING my hard earned money on too many "ooohh shiny" or "pretty" guns.
I was there at the media event in Vegas. Here is the video of some guy named Grant T winning the "Popper Palooza" event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w76xQEcTSmw
C4
Nice work. Very cool video and congrats.
Because I figured it was directed at me. I too roll my own and it's with chrome lined barrels, nothing substandard.
Your cuteness still doesn't point out which military on this planet has adopted a general issue weapon with a nitrided barrel, since you don't apparently understand why someone wouldn't prefer one.
Because I figured it was directed at me. I too roll my own and it's with chrome lined barrels, nothing substandard. If you roll yours with nitrided barrels then you just may be the one needing the Dulcolax at some point. Enjoy.
Would you care to share some factual evidence that shows nitride being substandard to chrome lined? Or are you just giving your opinion? Because everything that I've seen tells a different story. Maybe I'm reading bad info but if that's the case then there is a lot of bad info out there on nitride vs chrome lined because it pretty much comes down to just a personal preference and not an actual performance deficiency on either side.
As for the rifle we are discussing here it looks like SA did a pretty good job for their first AR. I'm sure that like anything it will evolve over time as they work the kinks out, but they have a good jump on things with this one it appears.
ColtSeavers
11-01-16, 18:54
Because I figured it was directed at me. I too roll my own and it's with chrome lined barrels, nothing substandard. If you roll yours with nitrided barrels then you just may be the one needing the Dulcolax at some point. Enjoy.
Your cuteness still doesn't point out which military on this planet has adopted a general issue weapon with a nitrided barrel, since you don't apparently understand why someone wouldn't prefer one.
Last edited by ABNAK; Today at 16:44.
My point still stands.
Would you care to share some factual evidence that shows nitride being substandard to chrome lined? Or are you just giving your opinion? Because everything that I've seen tells a different story. Maybe I'm reading bad info but if that's the case then there is a lot of bad info out there on nitride vs chrome lined because it pretty much comes down to just a personal preference and not an actual performance deficiency on either side.
As for the rifle we are discussing here it looks like SA did a pretty good job for their first AR. I'm sure that like anything it will evolve over time as they work the kinks out, but they have a good jump on things with this one it appears.
Opinion and personal experience. Why did DD go away from nitrided barrels? Someone on this site said it was due to chipping at high temps. Not my experience but what I did encounter---failures to extract---was the Achilles Heel of the AR platform in Vietnam until they chrome lined the chamber (and later the bore too).
They've been nitriding things, especially engine parts, for decades; why didn't they use it for weapons until relatively recently? Could it be because chrome lining is (gasp!) more EXPENSIVE?
FlyingHunter
11-01-16, 19:01
Congrats Grant!! Nice shooting.
SeriousStudent
11-01-16, 19:24
Everyone feeling butthurt needs to unwad their clenched undies. That's not a request.
Nice shooting, Grant. It looks like you and Roxanne had a fun time with TGO - I bet that was a blast.
Ned Christiansen
11-01-16, 19:54
I've never met you Grant so can't say's I've ever given you much thought one way or the other but finding out you were a part of this behind all our backs AND won popperpelooza suddenly I hate you and you're my hero all at the same damned time:laugh:
Good job lad-- knows how to shoot and can be trusted with a secret.
I've never met you Grant so can't say's I've ever given you much thought one way or the other but finding out you were a part of this behind all our backs AND won popperpelooza suddenly I hate you and you're my hero all at the same damned time:laugh:
Good job lad-- knows how to shoot and can be trusted with a secret.
Lol. Well put.
I've never met you Grant so can't say's I've ever given you much thought one way or the other but finding out you were a part of this behind all our backs AND won popperpelooza suddenly I hate you and you're my hero all at the same damned time:laugh:
Good job lad-- knows how to shoot and can be trusted with a secret.
LOL, I hear that a lot (mostly the hate u part).
C4
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contax_shooter
11-01-16, 20:31
Unboxing hands-on video by Colion Noir
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SKzAFeBX-w
The marketing job on this has been well done hitting all age groups and all forms of media. Hats off to SA!
The marketing job on this has been well done hitting all age groups and all forms of media. Hats off to SA!
Marketing almost seems better than the rifle, I'm actually considering buying one but these kind of ultra-hip video campaigns tend to switch me off on principle. Just too pretentious for my taste.
ForTehNguyen
11-01-16, 22:08
what other out of the box offering out there has midlength, BCM furniture standard, polished and NiB trigger for 750-800 street? S&W M&P15 has that MOE Mid but it MSRPs at $1259. I wonder who is producing the upper, lower, barrel for them? Could it be BCM also since they are supplying a lot of the furniture?
Idk, I still think a BCM basic upper with a palmetto blem lower can do the same job if not better at the season price. People seem to get so hung up on a single rifle, but with the current market (preelection) I feel like there are better options for the first time buyer
Idk, I still think a BCM basic upper with a palmetto blem lower can do the same job if not better at the season price. People seem to get so hung up on a single rifle, but with the current market (preelection) I feel like there are better options for the first time buyer
Comparing an upper and lower separately (where no FET is paid) isn't a fair comparison.
C4
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Frankly I think it's very well spec'd, especially if it retails at $800 or less. I seriously can't pick out one glaring fault that would disqualify it. A lot of the other entry level AR's might skimp out with a cheap barrel or unknown materials in the BCG or RE. If I were building another AR with the proper materials and dimensions I'd pretty much end up with this gun, except with a LW barrel profile and magpul furniture. I own both nitride and chrome lined and both are GTG. I think if anyone asks about a decent spec'd entry level AR I'll point them to this.
ForTehNguyen
11-01-16, 22:39
$660 for a BCM middy upper with BCG, CH Mod 3. Missing: stripped lower and lower parts, BCM stock ($60), grip ($25), handguard ($?), metal rear sight ($100+), ALG ACT trigger ($69), 12% excise tax to replicate a Saint.
Comparing an upper and lower separately (where no FET is paid) isn't a fair comparison.
C4
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Grant, I appreciate your quick response, and I do understand your point, however, even with FET, Aero might just make a similar if not better product. Now in all fairness, I have yet to handle the "Saint" but I have handled (shot quite a lot) of Aero Precision Mid-length and I really do think that they have done quite a remarkable job for the money. I have quit a lot of respect for Springfield as a company, but I feel that they can fall into the same pitfalls as any large scale gun manufacture.
$660 for a BCM middy upper with BCG, CH Mod 3. Missing: stripped lower and lower parts, BCM stock ($60), grip ($25), handguard ($?), metal rear sight ($100+), ALG ACT trigger ($69), 12% excise tax to replicate a Saint.
Yea by the time you put together a lower with all the same parts as this SA and pair it with a BCM upper you'd be at $1000 easily. This gun is actually a pretty good deal.
Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I know, I don't think you can buy a better spec rifle at a cheaper price? Correct me if needed. Hard to keep up with so many options these days.
I'm with everyone else. I wouldn't probably buy one, but I'm not the intended market. For the money these days, buy the colt. Otherwise just get what you actually want.
Almost all of the other guns at or below that price are lacking in something. Armalite has a strong offering in that price range, but without a rear sight, and just regular furniture. All the others skimp on barrels, or your just buying an m4 profile. Which doesn't hurt, but unless you have a grenade launcher, is kinda pointless, to me at least, which doesn't mean shit.
I'd say for the guy that isn't just looking for the very cheapest, but sees the saint on a rack, with the nice bcm gear, sights, sitting next to DD, colts, maybe a bcm (probably not in most stores), a slew of dpms or bushies. All either all are higher spec and cost more, or in that range with less for the money, it will strike cords with buyers. Slight market differentiation, and maybe more perceived value.
I say sure. Why not. Many will buy and they'll just sit. But for some it'll be their gateway to bigger things.
Nice shooting and way to represent Grant.
Coupled with a Springfield 1911, it would make a nice package
Coal Dragger
11-02-16, 03:00
The only stuck case I've ever had with an AR was in a nitrided barrel. Several stuck cases as a matter of fact. Steel cased Wolf 5.45x39. Yeah, I know it was steel cased ammo but there isn't any brass 5.45x39. Same ammo did NOT stick in a chrome lined S&W MP15R I had.
Need more? All the big time players---Colt, BCM, Knight's, DD---all chrome line barrels. Yes, DD did the nitride thing for a while but they don't now from what I've heard.
Well I've had a stuck case in a chrome lined chamber, also steel cased Wolf 55gr 5.56X45. Using the same logic I would have to conclude that chrome lined chambers are garbage.
This is of course ridiculous.
Well I've had a stuck case in a chrome lined chamber, also steel cased Wolf 55gr 5.56X45. Using the same logic I would have to conclude that chrome lined chambers are garbage.
This is of course ridiculous.
Reading is fundamental: the same ammo did not stick in a chrome lined S&W barrel. Other than 5.45x39 I don't shoot steel cased fodder in any of my AR's so like I said, it's the only scenario where I ever had a stuck case (and it was several before I sold the upper with the caveat to chamber brush it frequently, as in once or twice during a range trip).
Coal Dragger
11-02-16, 05:03
I have 2 Daniel Defense salt bath nitrided barrels, neither have demonstrated anything other than perfect function.
Including with steel cased Wolf. Steel cased Wolf is simply nasty crap though, blame the ammo not the barrel.
Nitrocarburized steel has a surface hardness that is nearly as hard as chrome lining, harder surfaces tend to be slicker. The advantages of the salt bath over chrome lining are no dimensional changes, and the conversion process leaves a deeper or thicker hardened material than chrome lining.
Even US Army studies have shown the difference in wear characteristics under a sustained high rate of fire are nearly the same, with chrome lining lasting a bit longer, but both treatments lasting exponentially longer than bare steel. For a semi-auto application the practical difference in barrel life is probably even closer.
Moose-Knuckle
11-02-16, 05:08
It's good to see BCM furniture on a production gun right out of the box.
SA, they have to be the last of the big gun makers in the country not to have their own AR out.
BuzzinSATX
11-02-16, 06:54
Coupled with a Springfield 1911, it would make a nice package
I agree, and what about the many XD shooters out there who would love a Springy AR to match their pistol?
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BuzzinSATX
11-02-16, 07:06
This was the first time I have met anyone from SA. Let me say that from the CEO on down, these people are SUPER nice and professional. In the firearms industry, this is NOT the norm.
C4
I have a few friends who have SA 1911's and others who own XD's of some sort. The few who have used SA customer service felt they had really good results.
I only own one SA, an XDm 3.8C in 9MM bought 4 years ago for my daughter who's hands were simply too small for a Glock. I know they don't get much love here but my kid (now 24) loves that pistol, and it's provided several years and a few thousand rounds of flawless service this far. She saw the SAINT ad and now wants one for Christmas...to match her pistol of course!
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It's good to see BCM furniture on a production gun right out of the box.
SA, they have to be the last of the big gun makers in the country not to have their own AR out.
Careful people will get butthurt for mentioning BCM furniture. LOL
crusader377
11-02-16, 07:57
Yea by the time you put together a lower with all the same parts as this SA and pair it with a BCM upper you'd be at $1000 easily. This gun is actually a pretty good deal.
I think it is better than that, the Springfield is an exceptional deal for what you are getting. For an under $800 street price, you are getting a fully spec out mid-length rifle, with good furniture and accessories. You are spending at least $850-$900 these days for a Colt which you would still have to sink another $150 -$200 to match the accessories that the Springfield has out of the box. A complete built out BCM mid-length will similar accessories is going to run you close to the $1100 range. Probably the closest director competitor of the Springfield is the Smith and Wesson Mid MOE and those are even running $950-$1000.
For those questioning the market place niche for this AR, you need to realize this isn't being made for the M4C crowd, this is made for the average guy who goes to a gun show or a local shop for their first AR. For that guy (or gal), it is a very confusing market place. They see ARs from $500 to $2000+. They see names they know, and names they never heard. The have buddies telling them crazy stuff, they have people telling to build their own, and so on. Part of the success of the S&W Sport is of course the price point, but also the name recognition. They have no idea what BCM or DD is. Everyone has heard of Smith and Wesson, Colt, and probably Springfield Armory. Now, with a Saint next to a Sport, both names they know, they can visibly see the difference, they can see with their own eyes why one is about $200 more. They now have a choice that makes sense to them. Just my two cents based on my experience in the business.
I'm glad to see Springfield get in the game, but I feel pretty let down. I guess I was just hoping for something kind of new and innovative. Again, glad to see Springfield throw their hat in the ring, but for what this has to offer, it's more than a little late to the party. At that price point, I'll still go with the Colt LE6920 over this.
jerrysimons
11-02-16, 09:43
For those questioning the market place niche for this AR, you need to realize this isn't being made for the M4C crowd, this is made for the average guy who goes to a gun show or a local shop for their first AR. For that guy (or gal), it is a very confusing market place. They see ARs from $500 to $2000+. They see names they know, and names they never heard. The have buddies telling them crazy stuff, they have people telling to build their own, and so on. Part of the success of the S&W Sport is of course the price point, but also the name recognition. They have no idea what BCM or DD is. Everyone has heard of Smith and Wesson, Colt, and probably Springfield Armory. Now, with a Saint next to a Sport, both names they know, they can visibly see the difference, they can see with their own eyes why one is about $200 more. They now have a choice that makes sense to them. Just my two cents based on my experience in the business.
Exactly, If they are able to follow through with QC I see this being a great option to recommend to people without all the effort of explaining why the better rifles don't have some of the futures the bottom of the barrel guns have that are also cheeper to start with. Most people want turn-key stuff, I get it. I want ease of recommendation without all the caveats and at a price point that will still get them in the game. Also people have this huge cognitive dissonance when all they have ever thought about for purchasing a gun is off the shelf at their local outdoor/sporting goods store and you come in and tell the they can buy better for the same price online. Deer in the headlights stare from most, people often aren't willing to put effort into learning new things. This gun is the easy button for recommendations. "...Go to Cabelas/Bass Pro/ Academy/ Gander mountain/ local gun shop and buy this from a brand you recognize and respect..."
BuzzinSATX
11-02-16, 09:49
For those questioning the market place niche for this AR, you need to realize this isn't being made for the M4C crowd, this is made for the average guy who goes to a gun show or a local shop for their first AR. For that guy (or gal), it is a very confusing market place. They see ARs from $500 to $2000+. They see names they know, and names they never heard. The have buddies telling them crazy stuff, they have people telling to build their own, and so on. Part of the success of the S&W Sport is of course the price point, but also the name recognition. They have no idea what BCM or DD is. Everyone has heard of Smith and Wesson, Colt, and probably Springfield Armory. Now, with a Saint next to a Sport, both names they know, they can visibly see the difference, they can see with their own eyes why one is about $200 more. They now have a choice that makes sense to them. Just my two cents based on my experience in the business.
I'm not in the business, but most of my non-gun people friends who are buying their first gun are thinking exactly this way. And like I said earlier, lots of XD shooters who happily run a few hundred rounds through their guns each year, and what they "know" to be true is that SA builds a great gun, so this AR is a safe choice for them. And by what I see here, they would be correct.
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BuzzinSATX
11-02-16, 09:56
...Again, glad to see Springfield throw their hat in the ring, but for what this has to offer, it's more than a little late to the party.
Ruger started selling their SR1911's 100 years after the pistol was introduced, and they are selling pretty near every gun they build. It's not a Dan Wesson, Wilson Combat, or even a Colt, but it sells very well at the price point they established.
Personally, As long as this gun doesn't turn out to be a lemon, I think it will be successful. I also believe some of the other companies who sell at this price point should be a bit concerned...
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I was there at the media event in Vegas.
Here is the video of some guy named Grant T winning the "Popper Palooza" event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w76xQEcTSmw
C4
Damn good shooting Grant, congrats.
Again, glad to see Springfield throw their hat in the ring, but for what
this has to offer, it's more than a little late to the party.
At that price point, I'll still go with the Colt LE6920 over this.
Yep, if you buy the Colt, you'll never look back months or years later & say "I should have bought the SA"
Exactly, If they are able to follow through with QC I see this being a great option to recommend to people without all the effort of explaining why the better rifles don't have some of the futures the bottom of the barrel guns have that are also cheeper to start with. Most people want turn-key stuff, I get it. I want ease of recommendation without all the caveats and at a price point that will still get them in the game. Also people have this huge cognitive dissonance when all they have ever thought about for purchasing a gun is off the shelf at their local outdoor/sporting goods store and you come in and tell the they can buy better for the same price online. Deer in the headlights stare from most, people often aren't willing to put effort into learning new things. This gun is the easy button for recommendations. "...Go to Cabelas/Bass Pro/ Academy/ Gander mountain/ local gun shop and buy this..."
You both hit it spot on why SA came out with this gun. My first AR was a complete upper and complete lower, clicked two pins and went shooting. My next two AR's I assembled the lowers and just slapped on complete BCM uppers. The average first time AR buyer is intimidated about all the choices in AR's just like I was and price definitely plays a big role. Trying to convince them to spend an extra $200 or so for something else that looks the same is hard but this is a great affordable option to steer them to. I was just in the store the other day chatting with another customer who was debating between a Glock 19 for $550 or a Turkish made Century Arms 9mm for $400. Couldn't convince him to spend the extra $150 for his home defense pistol. Newer gun owners just see price tags.
They'll sell thousands because Springfield Armory offers spiffs for selling their firearms. Every gun counter guy in every Bass Pro, Cabelas, Gander Mountain, Sportsmans Warehouse, Scheels, etc. will push these left and right so they can get their points for a free gun.
I can hear it already "You don't want a colt/bcm/etc, buy a SAINT for $800 and you'll get a better gun!"
Grant, I appreciate your quick response, and I do understand your point, however, even with FET, Aero might just make a similar if not better product. Now in all fairness, I have yet to handle the "Saint" but I have handled (shot quite a lot) of Aero Precision Mid-length and I really do think that they have done quite a remarkable job for the money. I have quit a lot of respect for Springfield as a company, but I feel that they can fall into the same pitfalls as any large scale gun manufacture.
I am sure there are lot of companies that make a similar product (for more or less money). What I tell people to consider when choosing to buy an AR is brand recognition. Your mother has heard of Colt (for instance). So when the panic buying starts, companies with a well known name will sell far better than an unknown company (like Aero). SA has a LARGE brand recognition and are extremely popular.
C4
Nice shooting and way to represent Grant.
Thanks.
C4
WickedWillis
11-02-16, 10:24
Damn good shooting Grant, congrats.
Yep, if you buy the Colt, you'll never look back months or years later & say "I should have bought the SA"
I don't think anyone will either. It'd be pretty cool though if SA started selling stripped lowers with their logo on it, minus the giant "Saint" on the other side.
Yes, still trying to figure that one out. Acronym or some other meaning ?
I am sure there are lot of companies that make a similar product (for more or less money). What I tell people to consider when choosing to buy an AR is brand recognition. Your mother has heard of Colt (for instance). So when the panic buying starts, companies with a well known name will sell far better than an unknown company (like Aero). SA has a LARGE brand recognition and are extremely popular.
C4
And it will be incredibly easy to expand the line without a lot of cost. This takes off for them, you can add a few variations and they will sell. One problem for S&W is most people don't see the difference between a $600 Sport II, and a $1000 M&P...I guess it is OK because they move a metric shit ton of Sports, but it the success isn't translating to the rest of their AR lineup.
So this is a very good-looking gun at $700-$750 street price. Between the specs I've seen, SA's general ability to execute well, and the fact that it comes with furniture that doesn't suck, all the rifle really needs to do is just work. A 6920? No. But who knows, when more info is out there about how they actually work in the wild and how consistent they are, they might be a good option for guys that don't need a duty rifle, but still don't want a rifle that is going to have every possible corner cut.
I mean, the specs really do look good. 7075 receiver extension, H buffer, 4150 barrel, C158 MPI bolt with M16 carrier, 1:8 twist, Type III hard anodized finish... No word on gas port size, and the neither the bolt nor barrel are proofed. The only legitimate negative I see on their site is their castle nut isn't staked in the photo (Grant, feel free to chime in on this). So I'm actually kind of excited to see how this does going forward. We'll see how closely they actually retail to 6920's, but if they turn out to be consistent performers, they might be legitimate upgrades from the cheaper guns. Definitely better than a Sport that costs $650 right now...
Slightly OT, but for you 1911 guys, how do SA's 1911's compare to Colt's?
...The only legitimate negative I see on their site is their castle nut isn't staked in the photo...TTAG reports their test rifle's castle nut was staked.
Slightly OT, but for you 1911 guys, how do SA's 1911's compare to Colt's?Production SA 1911s are every bit the equal of Colt's; their custom shop offerings compete evenly with Wilson, Brown, Baer, etc.
Yes, still trying to figure that one out. Acronym or some other meaning ?
No acronym. From my understanding, they wanted a name that basically meant to describe a "good" person that is also willing and capable to defend themselves and others.
C4
And it will be incredibly easy to expand the line without a lot of cost. This takes off for them, you can add a few variations and they will sell. One problem for S&W is most people don't see the difference between a $600 Sport II, and a $1000 M&P...I guess it is OK because they move a metric shit ton of Sports, but it the success isn't translating to the rest of their AR lineup.
I think they will offer more models in the future. I talked the VP sales at length about the models they should look at making based off of sales numbers that we are seeing with other brands.
C4
So this is a very good-looking gun at $700-$750 street price. Between the specs I've seen, SA's general ability to execute well, and the fact that it comes with furniture that doesn't suck, all the rifle really needs to do is just work. A 6920? No. But who knows, when more info is out there about how they actually work in the wild and how consistent they are, they might be a good option for guys that don't need a duty rifle, but still don't want a rifle that is going to have every possible corner cut.
I mean, the specs really do look good. 7075 receiver extension, H buffer, 4150 barrel, C158 MPI bolt with M16 carrier, 1:8 twist, Type III hard anodized finish... No word on gas port size, and the neither the bolt nor barrel are proofed. The only legitimate negative I see on their site is their castle nut isn't staked in the photo (Grant, feel free to chime in on this). So I'm actually kind of excited to see how this does going forward. We'll see how closely they actually retail to 6920's, but if they turn out to be consistent performers, they might be legitimate upgrades from the cheaper guns. Definitely better than a Sport that costs $650 right now...
Slightly OT, but for you 1911 guys, how do SA's 1911's compare to Colt's?
My guns had a staked castle nut.
The SA brand of 1911's are very good.
C4
TTAG reports their test rifle's castle nut was staked.
Production SA 1911s are every bit the equal of Colt's; their custom shop offerings compete evenly with Wilson, Brown, Baer, etc.
My guns had a staked castle nut.
The SA brand of 1911's are very good.
C4
Good to know, thanks guys. I figured they wouldn't actually go through the hassle of using decent parts and completely ignore the staking.
556BlackRifle
11-02-16, 11:23
Grant you rocked the house! I just saw the video and as someone above said; way to represent M4C!
Grant you rocked the house! I just saw the video and as someone above said; way to represent M4C!
Tks. What is funny is that I haven't shot an AR in over a year! One of the writers at the event said that it "figured that the guy from M4C could shoot." I was actually beat though by Rob Leatham. He shot it in 61.66 (if memory serves). I think that if I had shot it in daylight (like most of the other shooters), I could have run it in 50-55 second range. The shadows from the lights were a bitch as they caused depth perception issues.
C4
Grant you rocked the house! I just saw the video and as someone above said; way to represent M4C!
Seems 2 M4Carbineers actually placed. :dance3:
Really hope SA follows through with this rifle. Would be nice to have another non-crap "budget" rifle on market to point folks at.
No acronym. From my understanding, they wanted a name that basically meant to describe a "good" person that is also willing and capable to defend themselves and others.
C4
Springfield Armory Independent National Trainers
556BlackRifle
11-02-16, 11:35
Tks. What is funny is that I haven't shot an AR in over a year! The NRA writer at the event said that it "figured that the guy from M4C could shoot." I was actually beat though by Rob Leatham. He shot it in 61.66 (if memory serves). I think that if I had shot it in daylight (like most of the other shooters), I could have run it in 50-55 second range. The shadows from the lights were a bitch as they caused depth perception issues.
C4
Being that Rob Leatham shoots for a living and you came so close in adverse lighting conditions, that really speaks volumes. Nice job by R as well. :)
Reading is fundamental: the same ammo did not stick in a chrome lined S&W barrel. Other than 5.45x39 I don't shoot steel cased fodder in any of my AR's so like I said, it's the only scenario where I ever had a stuck case...Critical thinking is fundamental, too; using a failure sample of one (barrel and ammo type) against multiple variables in play isn't a valid way to arrive at meaningful conclusions about a metal treatment process.
Ruger started selling their SR1911's 100 years after the pistol was introduced, and they are selling pretty near every gun they build. It's not a Dan Wesson, Wilson Combat, or even a Colt, but it sells very well at the price point they established.
Personally, As long as this gun doesn't turn out to be a lemon, I think it will be successful. I also believe some of the other companies who sell at this price point should be a bit concerned...
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I'm not saying I don't think it won't do well. I think it'll do just fine. What I am saying is that it'd be nice for a change for one of these big name companies to come up with something fresh and new, b/c we all know that the world needs another AR option like it needs a kick in the nuts.
call_me_ski
11-02-16, 12:48
Don't need another AR and if I did it wouldn't be this one. Butthurt is a figment of your imagination. Have at it if you like; I'll pass.
BTW, ring me when the world's first military adopts a front-line weapon with a nitrided barrel. Not some police agency, but a military.
For what is is worth the Swiss SIG 550 series of guns have nitrided barrels and they are spared no expense in their construction. So at least a neutral military and some elite units have adopted a weapon with such a barrel. Don't condemn nitrided barrels because of a bad example that could be the result of bad quality control.
Critical thinking is fundamental, too; using a failure sample of one (barrel and ammo type) against multiple variables in play isn't a valid way to arrive at meaningful conclusions about a metal treatment process.
Okay, let's try this again.....yes, it was one type of ammo, but it was TWO different barrels with that same ammo. One was nitrided (Ballistic Advantage for those calling quality into question) and the other was a chrome lined S&W.
Look, for all those ragging on me about my opinion of nitrided barrels: if you were given the choice between a chrome lined Colt/BCM/Knight's/whoever barrel for a build and a nitrided one, which would you choose? To wit, which has the world's militaries chosen up to this point? If you bought a nitrided barrel and it's all that and a bag of chips, well goody for you. I have my own opinion and don't really care if it's popular or not as it's my $$$ being spent.
Having said that, if a choice was between non-lined and nitrided well the latter is certainly better than the former without a doubt. Chrome>nitride>non-lined.
For what is is worth the Swiss SIG 550 series of guns have nitrided barrels and they are spared no expense in their construction. So at least a neutral military and some elite units have adopted a weapon with such a barrel. Don't condemn nitrided barrels because of a bad example that could be the result of bad quality control.
And I have an MCX which is nitrided, and since there are no chrome lined ones it'll do as opposed to being non-lined. Just not my first choice.
Those handguards... :sad:
Okay, let's try this again.....yes, it was one type of ammo, but it was TWO different barrels with that same ammo. One was nitrided (Ballistic Advantage FWIW) and the other was chrome lined.
Look, for all those ragging on me about my opinion of nitrided barrels: if you were given the choice between a chrome lined Colt/BCM/Knight's/whoever barrel for a build and a nitrided one, which would you choose? To wit, which has the world's militaries chosen up to this point? If you bought a nitrided barrel and it's all that and a bag of chips, well goody for you. I have my own opinion and don't really care if it's popular or not as it's my $$$ being spent.
Having said that, if a choice was between non-lined and nitrided well the latter is certainly better than the former without a doubt. Chrome>nitride>non-lined.Not ragging, and not a popularity contest, either -- just pointing out that you drew a conclusion without the necessary information to arrive at that conclusion. One nitrided barrel in play is still a sample of one, irrespective of the chrome barrel where the ammo successfully extracted.
Until the work is done to determine that it wasn't a matter of improperly applied nitriding, an out-of-spec chamber, borderline ammo or iffy extractor -- or any combination of those or other factors playing poorly together -- the barrel treatment alone can't be blamed.
Personally, I'll take chrome lined or nitrided barrels provided there's overall quality in the barrel. Chrome will likely give me a little more durability against a very slight drop in absolute accuracy; nitride will likely reverse that trade-off -- that's general consensus on the two processes compared. I'll probably never squeeze the very last bit of either out to care; exceptionally few will.
I like looking to military specs, too, for a general baselines on usability, but that (to the best of either of our knowledge) no military is currently fielding general use rifles with nitrided barrels (I suppose Glock pistols don't count for anything?) isn't de facto evidence of its unsuitability; institutional inertia when an established process for which economies of scale have been built that is performing well enough not to justify the expenses of switching over can just as easily account for your observation.
I've seen and had stuck cases with chome chambers also....... Whoopty doo... I guess we better throw them in the trash with the nitrited barrels too.
Nocalsocal
11-02-16, 14:28
I think this is a good move for upcoming, new AR owners in general. Just this past weekend, my wife's cousin wanted to know which brands to look at for a sub $1000 AR. After figuring out his budget (he wanted something good but not junk either and really wanted to stay below $800 if possible) I steered him toward the Colts but I knew in reality with fees and taxes it would be well above his budget. He understands that quality has a price but he truthfully admits that he won't be shooting enough to justify the cost. So he was dutifully looking at S&W Sports, Rugers, Aero models. I can now point him in this direction as well.
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Not ragging, and not a popularity contest, either -- just pointing out that you drew a conclusion without the necessary information to arrive at that conclusion. One nitrided barrel in play is still a sample of one, irrespective of the chrome barrel where the ammo successfully extracted.
Until the work is done to determine that it wasn't a matter of improperly applied nitriding, an out-of-spec chamber, borderline ammo or iffy extractor -- or any combination of those or other factors playing poorly together -- the barrel treatment alone can't be blamed.
Personally, I'll take chrome lined or nitrided barrels provided there's overall quality in the barrel. Chrome will likely give me a little more durability against a very slight drop in absolute accuracy; nitride will likely reverse that trade-off -- that's general consensus on the two processes compared. I'll probably never squeeze the very last bit of either out to care; exceptionally few will.
I like looking to military specs, too, for a general baselines on usability, but that (to the best of either of our knowledge) no military is currently fielding general use rifles with nitrided barrels (I suppose Glock pistols don't count for anything?) isn't de facto evidence of its unsuitability; institutional inertia when an established process for which economies of scale have been built that is performing well enough not to justify the expenses of switching over can just as easily account for your observation.
"The List" comes to mind. I realize that this SA rifle isn't meant to check all the boxes, although it does on quite a few. When I spend my cash it will be on a chrome lined barrel in addition to the other criteria of "The List". I just notice that in the last few years nitriding has started to replace chrome lining (or no lining at all, which is indeed an improvement) for AR makers except for the Big Guys. AK's too. If anyone can refute it's being done because it's a cheaper process to do than chrome lining I'm all ears. To me it is a corner being cut, and like I acknowledged a few lines back this was not intended to be a military issue battle carbine.
So in a nutshell, nitriding is almost as good as chrome lining but is less expensive so it's occupying a greater and greater niche in barrel manufacturing in other-than-top-tier brands. If one is happy with it enjoy. I'll pass when I can and still prefer it to a non-lined barrel.
I've seen and had stuck cases with chome chambers also....... Whoopty doo... I guess we better throw them in the trash with the nitrited barrels too.
Proper cleaning might help your issues. ;) If you're one of those "I just pull the Boresnake a few times and squirt in some more lube" kinda guys that might be the answer to your problem.
Proper cleaning might help your issues. ;) If you're one of those "I just pull the Boresnake a few times and squirt in some more lube" kinda guys that might be the answer to your problem.
Please....Am I suppose to run the chamber brush after every round then?
I think I have seen and been around a handful of stuck cases my entire life.
Sometimes shit just happens when your shooting a case and a half of Soviet ammo in an afternoon.
If you shoot enough, eventually they all won't go bang at some point.
Helped a rancher buddy of mine pry out a stuck Lake city case out of a colt last year. Truck gun. Mortaring solved that one.
Stuff happens. Life goes on. In other news the sky is blue.
I'm convinced most of the people on the internet don't actually shoot all that much. All of these people claiming to never ever have malfunctions of any kind.
Not saying you don't shoot slot Abnak, but can you honestly say Murphy has never showed up when you ask the gun to go bang?
I hope SA puts good barrels that shoot MOA with hornady 75 bthp loads. Then everyone can lose their minds when the cheapie gun with an "inferior and non spec" barrels out shoots all the cool guy rifles.
I also hope that it raises the tide and makes the other cheapie guns have to be better from extra competition.
"The List" comes to mind. I realize that this SA rifle isn't meant to check all the boxes, although it does on quite a few. When I spend my cash it will be on a chrome lined barrel in addition to the other criteria of "The List". I just notice that in the last few years nitriding has started to replace chrome lining (or no lining at all, which is indeed an improvement) for AR makers except for the Big Guys. AK's too. If anyone can refute it's being done because it's a cheaper process to do than chrome lining I'm all ears. To me it is a corner being cut, and like I acknowledged a few lines back this was not intended to be a military issue battle carbine.
So in a nutshell, nitriding is almost as good as chrome lining but is less expensive so it's occupying a greater and greater niche in barrel manufacturing in other-than-top-tier brands. If one is happy with it enjoy. I'll pass when I can and still prefer it to a non-lined barrel.
You are a bit too hung up on military spec. Just because the military isn't using a certain product or process that doesn't mean its inferior. Lots of other factors go into how the military chooses a rifle or a company to do business with. MONEY always plays a huge part and always will. Its all about who can make a large quantity of a good enough product for the lowest price in a timely manner. It's not about who has the best rifle on the market or the best process.
BuzzinSATX
11-02-16, 17:59
I was there at the media event in Vegas. Here is the video of some guy named Grant T winning the "Popper Palooza" event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w76xQEcTSmw
C4
So I finally watched the video, and it was pretty cool. But to top it off, and I don't think anyone caught this yet, and if they did, I apologize, but did anyone catch the fact that Grant outshot Iain Harrison, the winner of the History Channel's show Top Shot (first season)! Personally, I think that is awesome! Congratulations Grant!
Keymod is dead.
Maybe, but I still have the same MI keymod rail that I installed on my BCM middy three years ago and I love it. :D I don't run a bunch of things on my rail though, just a light and a hand stop.
As far as this offering from Springfield, maybe it will at least pull people away from buying Bushmaster, Windham Weaponry, etc ...
WickedWillis
11-02-16, 18:28
So I finally watched the video, and it was pretty cool. But to top it off, and I don't think anyone caught this yet, and if they did, I apologize, but did anyone catch the fact that Grant outshot Iain Harrison, the winner of the History Channel's show Top Shot (first season)! Personally, I think that is awesome! Congratulations Grant!
If we hype him up anymore his head will exceed the size allowed to login to this site :p
Please....Am I suppose to run the chamber brush after every round then?
The carbine class I took the 5.45x39 AR to in fact showed me that I needed to use the chamber brush at each break we took to keep it from happening. It had happened before at my home range and afterwards, when I then decided it was time to divest myself of it and the caliber in general. The barrel was a BA one and they have a decent rep. At the time I used this AR as my "training gun" because 5.45 was cheaper than 5.56 and I had like 2K rounds of it (Wolf 60gr). The S&W MP15R I originally had functioned fine with the same ammo in both the carbine configuration I bought it in and later in a cut-down 11" pistol I made out of it with a different lower for legality purposes. Could be any one of a number of variables I'll readily admit, but it did leave me with a bad taste in my mouth.
Failures to extract were/are the biggest common failure I can think of with an AR, and it takes it out of action very quickly. It is also a PIA to remedy, especially if one was under some kind of dire circumstances (like incoming fire for instance).
Now initially S&W offered a 5R, nitrided, 1:8 twist barrel on their MP15 Sport. They have since gone away from that. Since it was 5.56 you could choose to exclusively shoot brass out of it and the 5R rifling is pretty accurate from what I've read. The fact that with 5.56 you could use brass cased instead of steel cased crap ammo would possibly negate any FTE issues. Don't know, but I'm a little jaded with my experience.
This SA weapon is along the lines of the MP Sport series (sans the 5R barrel). For the price point if a newbie was looking to get a first AR I'd still have to recommend a Colt 6970 for $100 more, a 6920 a tad more.
rapomstage3
11-02-16, 19:45
I think this looks sweet for the money. Specs are good but the barrel leaves something to be desired. The hand guard melting is stupid. 240 straight rounds. Its polymer!!this beats out a 6920 on paper by a fair amount imho. I won't be replacing my bcms or kacs but my back ups back ups could use a back up. Ps I still love keymod!!
So I finally watched the video, and it was pretty cool. But to top it off, and I don't think anyone caught this yet, and if they did, I apologize, but did anyone catch the fact that Grant outshot Iain Harrison, the winner of the History Channel's show Top Shot (first season)! Personally, I think that is awesome! Congratulations Grant!
;-)
C4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Looks like a nice rifle for the price point. Kudos for SA for teaming up with BCM. Looking forawrd to some reviews from owners after a few cases through.
Actually, Springfield Armory has been in the game before but not the commercial market. The company was trying to sell M16s to El Salvador and Colt sued on the grounds that S.A. was illegally using their TDP. There was quite a whirlwind of trials with Colt winning on appeal. Thereafter, Colt's TDP was protected as legitimate intellectual property, and the fact that their patents had expired was not relevant. Why? The TDP is about proprietary knowledge enabling Colt or its designated licensees to mass produce the M16 or its parts. The case is frequently cited in scholarly works about intellectual property and how it can be different from patents. The surname Christianson refers to Charles C., a former Colt engineer. I think that he left Colt's in 1975.
My link failed. The case is Christianson vs. Colt Industries
Actually, Springfield Armory has been in the game before. The company was trying to sell M16s to El Salvador and Colt sued on the grounds that S.A. was illegally using their TDP. There was quite a whirlwind of trials with Colt winning on appeal. Thereafter, Colt's TDP was protected as legitimate intellectual property, and the fact that their patents had expired was not relevant. Why? The TDP is about proprietary knowledge enabling Colt or its licenses including parts makers to mass produce the M16 or its parts. I'm providing a link that may be interesting reading for some. The case is frequently cited in scholarly works about intellectual property and how it can be different from patents. The surname Christianson refers to Charles C., a former Colt engineer.
openjurist.org/798/f2d/1051/christianson-v-colt-industries (openjurist.org/798/f20/1051/christianson-v-colt-industries)
i recall seeing flyers advertising SAI AR's, were any actually sold, or did colt shut them down before that was possible?
Beat Trash
11-03-16, 08:44
This new rifle looks like it will sell well, and that it would make a great starter gun for someone who wants to pick up an AR, "Just In Case". The only issue is that SA may be a bit late to the game, depending on when they're actually ready to start shipping the guns.
BuzzinSATX
11-03-16, 09:11
;-)
C4
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Hey Brother, please also pass on my congrats to your better half, who also turned in an excellent time!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hey Brother, please also pass on my congrats to your better half, who also turned in an excellent time!
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Will do.
C4
Looks good and finally!
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methical20
11-03-16, 15:05
Local shop had one for 820. They typically have decent prices, so I'm not sure how realistic the 700 dollar street price guesses were. Just one data point.
Local shop had one for 820. They typically have decent prices, so I'm not sure how realistic the 700 dollar street price guesses were. Just one data point.
You are right. $700 isn't realistic. $750-$800 is though.
C4
Good time here!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIz0vNre1NI
C4
Mysteryman
11-03-16, 17:13
For those questioning the market place niche for this AR, you need to realize this isn't being made for the M4C crowd, this is made for the average guy who goes to a gun show or a local shop for their first AR. For that guy (or gal), it is a very confusing market place. They see ARs from $500 to $2000+. They see names they know, and names they never heard. The have buddies telling them crazy stuff, they have people telling to build their own, and so on. Part of the success of the S&W Sport is of course the price point, but also the name recognition. They have no idea what BCM or DD is. Everyone has heard of Smith and Wesson, Colt, and probably Springfield Armory. Now, with a Saint next to a Sport, both names they know, they can visibly see the difference, they can see with their own eyes why one is about $200 more. They now have a choice that makes sense to them. Just my two cents based on my experience in the business.
No offence but given your description of the average Joe looking for an AR their decision will be based primarily on cost then brand recognition. A cheap S&W sport or the Ruger offering will win the day as they will be cheaper in price. The SA has some decent features, most of which will be glossed over by the ignorant average Joe and play no role in deciding what rifle they buy. For the informed buyer the SA is a flop, for the average Joe it has nice features that are reflected in a higher price which makes it a non starter. I honestly have no sympathy for people who end up with low end hobby guns. With the internet and forums like M4C there is no excuse to not do your homework before a purchase.
MM
I went to the LGS today to buy a couple. They said they had five on Tuesday morning and they were all sold by noon. Guess I'll have to wait.
ForTehNguyen
11-03-16, 18:03
how much was the LGS selling for?
No offence but given your description of the average Joe looking for an AR their decision will be based primarily on cost then brand recognition. A cheap S&W sport or the Ruger offering will win the day as they will be cheaper in price. The SA has some decent features, most of which will be glossed over by the ignorant average Joe and play no role in deciding what rifle they buy. For the informed buyer the SA is a flop, for the average Joe it has nice features that are reflected in a higher price which makes it a non starter. I honestly have no sympathy for people who end up with low end hobby guns. With the internet and forums like M4C there is no excuse to not do your homework before a purchase.
MM
Just reporting on what I experience in the marketplace.
contax_shooter
11-03-16, 19:35
Wow, thumbs up to SA with their marketing campaign on these things.
Fatorangecat
11-03-16, 19:49
I disagree about the marketing campaign. Springfield hyped the "SAINT" like it was going to be something huge when it's just another AR. I think it sounds like a decent rifle but all the talk about "defending your legacy" is just to dramatic.
Fuzzy-Reticle
11-03-16, 19:51
Saw one at LGS for $899. YMMV.
At least it doesn't say "AR Zone" on it. :jester:
The marketing hype succeeded in creating a lot of chatter
how much was the LGS selling for?
$799 + tax
The marketing hype succeeded in creating a lot of chatter
Yup, and again, this isn't really being marketed to the M4C types.
SeriousStudent
11-03-16, 20:12
Good time here!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIz0vNre1NI
C4
I can just hear it when you got home: "My mom and dad went to Vegas to blow up zombie gnomes with guns, and all we got was a t-shirt...."
Hahahaha! :D
Allah_Snackbah
11-03-16, 20:18
Anybody see this?
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/category/gear-revew/
EDIT - your link is incorrect, and you already posted that in another thread you created. No need to duplicate posts. -SeriousStudent
No offence but given your description of the average Joe looking for an AR their decision will be based primarily on cost then brand recognition. A cheap S&W sport or the Ruger offering will win the day as they will be cheaper in price. The SA has some decent features, most of which will be glossed over by the ignorant average Joe and play no role in deciding what rifle they buy. For the informed buyer the SA is a flop, for the average Joe it has nice features that are reflected in a higher price which makes it a non starter. I honestly have no sympathy for people who end up with low end hobby guns. With the internet and forums like M4C there is no excuse to not do your homework before a purchase.
MM
People don't do their research because 99.9% of AR owners buy them for sport and/or hobby and aren't going to use their gun in combat, and even if they did do their research the Smith, Ruger, and other entry level guns have great reputations amongst the gun community, and hopefully this Springfield will do good as well. This website is the extreme and not at all even close to how the rest of the AR world is. Every other site is filled with people who have had reliable and great experiences with their entry level guns. The Smith and Ruger for example are praised for being excellent guns for the money. Many reputable online reviewers have given these the thumbs up. This forum is the exception and not the rule. People here have some kind of thought process that anyone who owns an AR15 needs to be trained to go to war and the gun must be able to go thru a dozen tours without even a cleaning without failure, and Any gun that isn't made by BCM or Colt is garbage and will not go boom in the 1 in a million chance that someone comes into your house and you need to fire 5 shots to defend yourself. It's just not how things are. I love the passion here, but it's just not reality. Most people buy these guns for sport/hobby and for that buyer the Springfield hopefully is going to be a great gun backed by a great company.
methical20
11-03-16, 21:11
Are the BCGs the same as a BCM BCG with different markings?
contax_shooter
11-03-16, 21:21
The marketing hype succeeded in creating a lot of chatter
This. SA's household brand with this large budget marketing has been effective in bringing grabbing the average consumer's attention. I don't think a company such as BCM could pull off the same. Forum antendees who are well versed in companies like BCM like us are such a small niche in the market when compared to the rest.
I think this looks sweet for the money. Specs are good but the barrel leaves something to be desired. The hand guard melting is stupid. 240 straight rounds. Its polymer!!this beats out a 6920 on paper by a fair amount imho. I won't be replacing my bcms or kacs but my back ups back ups could use a back up. Ps I still love keymod!!
It doesn't beat a 6920 in anything
Leonidas24
11-03-16, 22:24
It doesn't beat a 6920 in anything
Objectively, no, but subjectively it is a midlength and that is something that someone will notice.
It doesn't beat a 6920 in anything
My thoughts as well. In exactly what categories would it beat a LE6920 in? I'd give the Saint the nod on the trigger, and that's about it. One could make the melonite vs chrome argument, but that has already been beat to death here. Really, I think it's mostly personal preference and in that price range I'd take the Colt every time b/c it's proven whereas the Saint isn't as of yet. The Saint may very well prove itself, but at this point in time, why take the gamble?
My thoughts as well. In exactly what categories would it beat a LE6920 in? I'd give the Saint the nod on the trigger, and that's about it. One could make the melonite vs chrome argument, but that has already been beat to death here. Really, I think it's mostly personal preference and in that price range I'd take the Colt every time b/c it's proven whereas the Saint isn't as of yet. The Saint may very well prove itself, but at this point in time, why take the gamble?
Trigger, furniture, sights, finish, and then a lot of stuff is a wash. It's not a bad option and I would bet that BCM had more to do with helping build this rifle than just giving them some furniture. You have to give SA credit for obviously doing some research and including a serious rifle company like BCM to be a part of this gun. They clearly wanted to build a good gun instead of just throwing another cheap AR into the marketplace and calling it a day.
Trigger, furniture, sights, finish, and then a lot of stuff is a wash. It's not a bad option and I would bet that BCM had more to do with helping build this rifle than just giving them some furniture. You have to give SA credit for obviously doing some research and including a serious rifle company like BCM to be a part of this gun. They clearly wanted to build a good gun instead of just throwing another cheap AR into the marketplace and calling it a day.
No doubt the specs check most of the boxes, and I'm also glad Springfield didn't just throw a turd in a box and try to sell it, but if I need a rifle, and my choice is to pick up a Saint or a 6920, I'm taking the 6920.
No doubt the specs check most of the boxes, and I'm also glad Springfield didn't just throw a turd in a box and try to sell it, but if I need a rifle, and my choice is to pick up a Saint or a 6920, I'm taking the 6920.
I don't blame you at all for choosing the Colt. It has something that the Saint won't for a long time which is the proven track record. That doesn't mean that it won't perform and do well for serious gunnguys. But it's going to be a while before it gets a serious look by serious shooters. That doesn't mean it can't or it won't. But history and proven track record is one important factor that you just can't buy. My opinion though is that this is a nice rifle and again I'm glad they didn't put out just another entry level AR.
I don't blame you at all for choosing the Colt. It has something that the Saint won't for a long time which is the proven track record. That doesn't mean that it won't perform and do well for serious gunnguys. But it's going to be a while before it gets a serious look by serious shooters. That doesn't mean it can't or it won't. But history and proven track record is one important factor that you just can't buy. My opinion though is that this is a nice rifle and again I'm glad they didn't put out just another entry level AR.
Agree 100% on all points.
Ditto for doing your homework. I failed to read the "fine print" and bought an Expanse 2000 upper thinking it was a 6920 upper. My fault and not the vendor. When I bought a Smith lower and combined the two, I had spent too much for my hybrid. The combination will suffice for home defense, but suffice is not an acceptable word for me.
WickedWillis
11-04-16, 10:34
Saw one at LGS for $899. YMMV.
At least it doesn't say "AR Zone" on it. :jester:
I laughed out loud. That was such a stupid design choice on the XD gen 2's they did.
I actually like the XDS. I had an XDS9 as a carry pistol for about a year. They are one of the most well built polymer guns out there as far as I'm concerned. The slide fits tight and the machining was excellent on my example. Extremely smooth shooting which is probably due to the gun being a bit on the heavy side for a single stack carry gun, but I liked the grip safety. It was great for peace of mind while holtering the weapon. I had to get rid of it because no matter what I did I shot it about 3" high at 20ft. I would put together a nice tight group but it was always low of my POA. I never experienced that with any other guns so I was sure it wasn't me. That and I hated the awful fiber optic sights that always clouded up when trying to heat them up during install. Went from that gun to a Sig P938 and couldn't be happier, but the XDS was extremely well made.
Mysteryman
11-04-16, 16:10
People don't do their research because 99.9% of AR owners buy them for sport and/or hobby and aren't going to use their gun in combat, and even if they did do their research the Smith, Ruger, and other entry level guns have great reputations amongst the gun community, and hopefully this Springfield will do good as well. This website is the extreme and not at all even close to how the rest of the AR world is. Every other site is filled with people who have had reliable and great experiences with their entry level guns. The Smith and Ruger for example are praised for being excellent guns for the money. Many reputable online reviewers have given these the thumbs up. This forum is the exception and not the rule. People here have some kind of thought process that anyone who owns an AR15 needs to be trained to go to war and the gun must be able to go thru a dozen tours without even a cleaning without failure, and Any gun that isn't made by BCM or Colt is garbage and will not go boom in the 1 in a million chance that someone comes into your house and you need to fire 5 shots to defend yourself. It's just not how things are. I love the passion here, but it's just not reality. Most people buy these guns for sport/hobby and for that buyer the Springfield hopefully is going to be a great gun backed by a great company.
I'm gonna be the AR snob(and practical thinker) here and say that I really don't give a sh*t what people buy for a hobby gun as it's nothing more than a toy. If you want to buy a tool for doing work of any kind then you best do your research and buy a quality tool. SA hyped this up as others have said to be some earth shattering new firearm and it's really just a decent hobby gun that borders on serious gun prices. Their "defend your legacy" slogan is just pathetic and will lead people to believe these rifles are top tier for social work which they are not. I don't doubt that most any AR will suffice for the 5-10 rounds you may fire in a defensive situation. However, no one can predict what happens or when and therefore some of us have the mindset to plan for the worst case event which may include many many rounds. The piece of mind that comes with knowing that your tool(rifle) is built to a standard(Milspec) with the right materials and offers you the best chance of reliable operation, is worth the price you pay. after all it's only your life that could hang on the balance...
Trigger, furniture, sights, finish, and then a lot of stuff is a wash. It's not a bad option and I would bet that BCM had more to do with helping build this rifle than just giving them some furniture. You have to give SA credit for obviously doing some research and including a serious rifle company like BCM to be a part of this gun. They clearly wanted to build a good gun instead of just throwing another cheap AR into the marketplace and calling it a day.
The BCM hand guards are nothing special and have no effect on performance or reliability of the rifle, and keymod is dead.
MM
I'm gonna be the AR snob(and practical thinker) here and say that I really don't give a sh*t what people buy for a hobby gun as it's nothing more than a toy. If you want to buy a tool for doing work of any kind then you best do your research and buy a quality tool. SA hyped this up as others have said to be some earth shattering new firearm and it's really just a decent hobby gun that borders on serious gun prices. Their "defend your legacy" slogan is just pathetic and will lead people to believe these rifles are top tier for social work which they are not. I don't doubt that most any AR will suffice for the 5-10 rounds you may fire in a defensive situation. However, no one can predict what happens or when and therefore some of us have the mindset to plan for the worst case event which may include many many rounds. The piece of mind that comes with knowing that your tool(rifle) is built to a standard(Milspec) with the right materials and offers you the best chance of reliable operation, is worth the price you pay. after all it's only your life that could hang on the balance...
The BCM hand guards are nothing special and have no effect on performance or reliability of the rifle, and keymod is dead.
MM
So I assume you're gathering your info to share here where your Saint failed on you and wasn't reliable. Or are you just assuming that this rifle is garbage, because you know what they say about assumptions. The truth is that the only info anyone has about this rifles performance right now has been quite positive so I'm not grasping where this gun is garbage when I have yet to see any negatives aside from a plastic hand guard doing what any plastic hand guard would do under heavy fire. Just saying. Maybe we should sit back and at least give it a few months before we condemn it to garbage level.
So I assume you're gathering your info to share here where your Saint failed on you and wasn't reliable. Or are you just assuming that this rifle is garbage, because you know what they say about assumptions. The truth is that the only info anyone has about this rifles performance right now has been quite positive so I'm not grasping where this gun is garbage when I have yet to see any negatives aside from a plastic hand guard doing what any plastic hand guard would do under heavy fire. Just saying. Maybe we should sit back and at least give it a few months before we condemn it to garbage level.You said "garbage" three times in your post; MM didn't say it once...or anything even remotely like it.
If your reply is predicated on changing a post's wording or intent, reconsider the reply.
You said "garbage" three times in your post; MM didn't say it once...or anything even remotely like it.
If your reply is predicated on changing a post's wording or intent, reconsider the reply.
Garbage is used a lot here so it's wearing off on me. I guess I shouldn't even care. Things just get taken to the extreme here on equipment and most of the time it's nothing more than "follow the leader". Carry on. I'm going to move along before this turn bad and I get in trouble for being involved in a argumentative thread. Have a great evening boys.
The advertisement is strong for this rifle.
Opened my e-mail and had an e-mail from BCM and Springfield, both adverts for the SAINT. If this rifle ends up being reliable and pulls people away from buying bushmaster and the like, then I see it as a good thing.
Just bought one today. 2 FFL's in my area had one in stock. One wanted $950!!!! The other was $819. Guess which one I got? Anyway, appears very high quality for the price point.
I looked at one today. I wasn't impressed. LGS had it priced at $899 and the castle nut was barely staked in only one place. The "saint" roll mark was a turn off. The carrier key was staked well. "Meh" pretty much sums it up.
I can't see why anyone would pick this over a 6920.
I'm gonna be the AR snob(and practical thinker) here and say that I really don't give a sh*t what people buy for a hobby gun as it's nothing more than a toy. If you want to buy a tool for doing work of any kind then you best do your research and buy a quality tool. SA hyped this up as others have said to be some earth shattering new firearm and it's really just a decent hobby gun that borders on serious gun prices. Their "defend your legacy" slogan is just pathetic and will lead people to believe these rifles are top tier for social work which they are not. I don't doubt that most any AR will suffice for the 5-10 rounds you may fire in a defensive situation. However, no one can predict what happens or when and therefore some of us have the mindset to plan for the worst case event which may include many many rounds. The piece of mind that comes with knowing that your tool(rifle) is built to a standard(Milspec) with the right materials and offers you the best chance of reliable operation, is worth the price you pay. after all it's only your life that could hang on the balance...
The BCM hand guards are nothing special and have no effect on performance or reliability of the rifle, and keymod is dead.
MM
The defend your legacy is more about their entire line than just the SAINT. KM is far from dead. You would shocked to learn how many BCM KMR rails are sold a month.
C4
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The defend your legacy is more about their entire line than just the SAINT. KM is far from dead. You would shocked to learn how many BCM KMR rails are sold a month.
C4
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No doubt true. But fwiw I think it's also because the kmr has more going for than just being keymod. Idk, my. 02.
As for the saint I'd like to pick one up if for no other reason than to support a company I like.
rapomstage3
11-04-16, 22:23
On paper this blows a 6920 out of the water. Not in rep but in features. We're talking useful upgrades already done. $850!! This gets a decent rifle in many people's hands. A little gimmicky but spec for spec I don't see why anyone wouldn't pick one of these up. I can see a novice shooter not caring about the add ons but, as someone who notices everything, stock ,grip angle, trigger and mid length gas system are essential parts of the evolution of the ar platform. A weak staking on the castle nut!! Really!? Fix it your self it's $850. If someone complains about finish or machining I'll snap I swear. You could replace the barrel and still be into this rifle for around a 6920. In NH anyway. Around $1100 here.
I would buy a Saint before I would buy a Colt. Why? It has all the furniture on it that I would have to pay extra for on top of Colts already high price.
This is what it's come to? We're judging the quality and utility of a tool gun based on the furniture?
You can buy a Colt sans furniture, btw...
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Comparing the Saint to a Colt is outside the scope of the gun's purpose, in my mind. Compare it to a Sport or Ruger, and you've got a discussion.
Colt's value isn't in its furniture.
The defend your legacy is more about their entire line than just the SAINT. KM is far from dead. You would shocked to learn how many BCM KMR rails are sold a month.
C4
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They sell so well because of being a great rail, not because it's keymod. Many seem to buy it and not like that it's keymod.
I bet if they made an Mlok version it would outsell the keymod.
556BlackRifle
11-05-16, 08:33
They sell so well because of being a great rail, not because it's keymod. Many seem to buy it and not like that it's keymod.
I bet if they made an Mlok version it would outsell the keymod.
Noveske sells both a KeyMod and M-Lok version of their NSR. I'd love to see the sales numbers. I'm not convinced that M-Lok is the king of the hill just yet or that it ever will be. There are impassioned arguments on both sides, and just like Beta vs VHS, the best platform may not necessarily win the market.... only time will tell.
Beat Trash
11-05-16, 08:39
Comparing the Saint to a Colt is outside the scope of the gun's purpose, in my mind. Compare it to a Sport or Ruger, and you've got a discussion.
Colt's value isn't in its furniture.
I agree fully with this statement.
I've seen a couple of issues with the Sport II pop up lately. Personally, I'd prefer a Colt 6920 over all three (Ruger, M&P Sport and Saint). But when you step away from a keyboard and enter the real world of late, it would seem that the majority of first time buyers are more interested in the mid range priced guns. I would feel better recommending the Saint over a Sport II. Once you factor in the cost of upgrading the furniture of a Sport II to the same furniture that's on the Saint, the price of the two guns is really close.
The ad from the 1st attempt in 1983
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https://s13.postimg.org/ly8i5gurb/sar_15.png
https://s13.postimg.org/rjiqteclj/sar_2.png
Comparing the Saint to a Colt is outside the scope of the gun's purpose, in my mind. Compare it to a Sport or Ruger, and you've got a discussion.
Colt's value isn't in its furniture.
As of right now, I think the Saints and the 6920's prices are closer than the Saint and the Rugers, or the Smiths. I can't speak for everyone, but that's why I compared them.
Seems the only meaningful differences spec wise between the saint and the 6920 is melonited vs chrome barrel and mid vs carbine gas systems. IMO neither of those is significant from a duty/patrol perspective (The M1A did just fine with an unlined 4140 CM barrel after all, and like the M1A neither of these are machine guns), so it gets down to how good are the individual parts and assembly. For the 6920 those are known and trusted; for the saint they are unknown as it is still very new and though SA is a respected manufacturer.
My question for professionals that carry and depend on these is how long and what will it take or the saint to either prove or disprove itself as a duty or patrol grade tool?
How would you compare the Saint to the Colt Expanse model?
Looks solid. Only thing I do not see is if the barrel is MPI and/or HPT tested. Is that even an issue? I did see the e-mail from BCM, was not surprised considering it uses their furniture (which I am a fan of btw).
Edit for fat fingers..
Regarding the S&W AR line, I see reference to the Sport when comparing different ARs too the Saint. What about the M&P15 not labeled Sport? How does the Saint compare to it?
At my local shops AR buyers are purchasing DPMS and other lower cost rifles. Dealers with those in stock are pushing them because they have them in stock. Buyers are not well versed. I'm trying not to call them ignorant. At this point, the few Colts including Expanses will disappear after the election. After the election, Expanses will be considered silk purses and not sow's ears. You'll also see slick individuals remarking uppers and switching out barrels in order to sell them for more. I've seen counterfeit Colt handguns rebuilt and modified by experts. The items then sold for $1000s. I knew one man(now dead)who had a complete set of stamping tools that were identical for every one ever owned by Colt. He was also a master machinist. So get ready.
I've admitted in other posts that I waited too late, didn't read the fine print, and spent too much for too little. Beware of this type error.
So what separates a 6920 from the SAINT? Other than barrel lining, what parts are better on a 6920? Does anybody even know yet?
Not trying to start an argument - I own a 6920 as a backup to my main AR (a DDM4V7 with a 12.5" mlok rail swapped onto it) but there are a few things about it I don't care for - mainly, carbine length gas system with a fixed FSP that interferes with how I hold an AR (I like to stretch out to alleviate shoulder pain), gritty trigger, the goofy, ill shaped magpul MOE forend, and the silly barrel profile. The SAINT seems to fix all those complaints but there are a lot of folks on here who seem to be down on it compared to a 6920. I'm truly interested in why, and whether I'd be better off selling the 6920 and picking up a SAINT, or coming out of pocket to modify the 6920 to my liking (probably about $250 - $300 all in if I ignore the barrel issue). Can anybody run down the specifics WHY a 6920 isn't even in the same league?
So what separates a 6920 from the SAINT? Other than barrel lining, what parts are better on a 6920? Does anybody even know yet?
Not trying to start an argument - I own a 6920 as a backup to my main AR (a DDM4V7 with a 12.5" mlok rail swapped onto it) but there are a few things about it I don't care for - mainly, carbine length gas system with a fixed FSP that interferes with how I hold an AR (I like to stretch out to alleviate shoulder pain), gritty trigger, the goofy, ill shaped magpul MOE forend, and the silly barrel profile. The SAINT seems to fix all those complaints but there are a lot of folks on here who seem to be down on it compared to a 6920. I'm truly interested in why, and whether I'd be better off selling the 6920 and picking up a SAINT, or coming out of pocket to modify the 6920 to my liking (probably about $250 - $300 all in if I ignore the barrel issue). Can anybody run down the specifics WHY a 6920 isn't even in the same league?
Really just the barrel, trigger, and of course the furniture, but I don't even really feel that's worth mentioning. The 6920 has a chrome lined barrel, the Saint has a melonite barrel and a better trigger. That's realy about it. The thing is, the 6920 is a proven rifle. The Saint isn't there yet. Time will tell. I own a 6920, but have never handled the Saint, so maybe a fit and finish difference as well.
Looks solid. Only thing I do not see is if the barrel is MPI and/or HPT tested. Is that even an issue? I did see the e-mail from BCM, was not surprised considering it uses their furniture (which I am a fan of btw).
Edit for fat fingers..
Spec sheet notes bolt is C158, MP and shot-peened. No mention of HP. The barrel does not list any NDT.
http://www.springfield-armory.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/ST916556B_SpecSheet.pdf
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I'm the last guy who should give AR advice but will share what little I know. About value: the 6920 after the election will be selling for much higher prices than the Saint. Over night it will be a highly sought after weapon, and people with money will pay the big prices.
The Saint is an unproven product with zero history. Best knowledge places it in the hobby or range category.
After not understanding why the Colt product is supposed to be better than others and being confused about the mysterious technical data package(tdp), I began a long library based study about Colt M16/AR products. The 6920 is made on the same line and with the same parts as their military product(certain full auto parts being the exception). Colt's technical data package makes up the intellectual property that enables them to mass produce these weapons in such a way that they will demonstrate very high standards. Likewise, they can carry out this process throughout long runs. This means that say within a contract of 150,000 rifles, each will be identical to the other in terms of quality and performance.
A guy might buy a Bushmaster which will equal the next man's Colt AR. But, let's look at the run of 150,000 Bushmasters that the guy's purchase came from. Whereas one out of this series equaled a Colt product, it's most highly doubtful that very many others will. It's very likely that many of these budget rifles will fail to maintain performance standards seen in the Colt line. Why? They were made without benefit of the tdp knowledge. This knowledge includes specifications for parts, machinery, inspection procedure, and various other technical areas.. In this scenario, you can substitute Saint, or DPMS, or some others for Bushmaster.
IG has worked on some of these lesser rifles used in war and did so in that environment. He does not think highly of them.
How would you compare the Saint to the Colt Expanse model?
I would say it compares favorably, in stock config.
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So what separates a 6920 from the SAINT? Other than barrel lining, what parts are better on a 6920? Does anybody even know yet?
Not trying to start an argument - I own a 6920 as a backup to my main AR (a DDM4V7 with a 12.5" mlok rail swapped onto it) but there are a few things about it I don't care for - mainly, carbine length gas system with a fixed FSP that interferes with how I hold an AR (I like to stretch out to alleviate shoulder pain), gritty trigger, the goofy, ill shaped magpul MOE forend, and the silly barrel profile. The SAINT seems to fix all those complaints but there are a lot of folks on here who seem to be down on it compared to a 6920. I'm truly interested in why, and whether I'd be better off selling the 6920 and picking up a SAINT, or coming out of pocket to modify the 6920 to my liking (probably about $250 - $300 all in if I ignore the barrel issue). Can anybody run down the specifics WHY a 6920 isn't even in the same league?
Colt gun has HP and MP of EACH bolt and barrel. Assembly is to the TDP. The Colt gun, as designed for military use, is exactly what it is supposed to be, save the FCG and longer barrel. Add to that the enormous track record of being proven and the standard to which all are compared...
The Saint may well be a fantastic sporter. Thing is, it ain't proven. It has ZERO track record. Let's get some rounds down range and some hard data before we go proclaiming it the better of the original "real deal".
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Colt gun has HP and MP of EACH bolt and barrel. Assembly is to the TDP. The Colt gun, as designed for military use, is exactly what it is supposed to be, save the FCG and longer barrel. Add to that the enormous track record of being proven and the standard to which all are compared...
The Saint may well be a fantastic sporter. Thing is, it ain't proven. It has ZERO track record. Let's get some rounds down range and some hard data before we go proclaiming it the better of the original "real deal".
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I could be wrong but doesn't the military have a huge department called an armory that works on broken Colt rifles every day?
I could be wrong but doesn't the military have a huge department called an armory that works on broken Colt rifles every day?
Yeah but how much abuse did they suffer at the hands of Pvt. Anvil Breaker in some shithole halfway across the world before it broke and out of that abused population at what rate did they break. Those are the important questions.
I'll repeat what I've said before. "Complies with the TDP" is not a synonym bot "best there could be." If you want a rifle you can bet your life on, then complies with the TDP describes a rifle thats done a fine job of breaking shit and killing people under abuse and bad conditions all over the world for 60+ years, which IMO is a good place to start for said life betting rifle.
So what separates a 6920 from the SAINT? Other than barrel lining, what parts are better on a 6920? Does anybody even know yet?
Not trying to start an argument - I own a 6920 as a backup to my main AR (a DDM4V7 with a 12.5" mlok rail swapped onto it) but there are a few things about it I don't care for - mainly, carbine length gas system with a fixed FSP that interferes with how I hold an AR (I like to stretch out to alleviate shoulder pain), gritty trigger, the goofy, ill shaped magpul MOE forend, and the silly barrel profile. The SAINT seems to fix all those complaints but there are a lot of folks on here who seem to be down on it compared to a 6920. I'm truly interested in why, and whether I'd be better off selling the 6920 and picking up a SAINT, or coming out of pocket to modify the 6920 to my liking (probably about $250 - $300 all in if I ignore the barrel issue). Can anybody run down the specifics WHY a 6920 isn't even in the same league?
I too have a DDM4 mine a older Version 3, I ordered it from the LGS for my wife. I had the same gritty Milspec trigger, after ordering I found you can order a DDM4 from the factory with a better Gisselle trigger, that is not well advertised. Mine now has a Ruger 452 trigger in it (Great, but a two stage) and the wife asked me to build a lighter gun for her (After she confirmed the ones I built before worked) I might have saved a pound, never weighed them. Point is you could have gotten a better trigger from the start, and you don't have to live with the one you have now. Gisselle and a bunch of others make great replacement triggers. If putting a bunch of pieces in worries you, get a Modular unit from Timney or CMC, fairly easy. Everything you mentioned can be corrected.
I too have a DDM4 mine a older Version 3, I ordered it from the LGS for my wife. I had the same gritty Milspec trigger, after ordering I found you can order a DDM4 from the factory with a better Gisselle trigger, that is not well advertised. Mine now has a Ruger 452 trigger in it (Great, but a two stage) and the wife asked me to build a lighter gun for her (After she confirmed the ones I built before worked) I might have saved a pound, never weighed them. Point is you could have gotten a better trigger from the start, and you don't have to live with the one you have now. Gisselle and a bunch of others make great replacement triggers. If putting a bunch of pieces in worries you, get a Modular unit from Timney or CMC, fairly easy. Everything you mentioned can be corrected.
Thanks, but I dropped an ALG trigger in my DD long ago. The point of my post was, is it worth pouring money into my Colt (which is essentially a backup AR that rarely gets used unless I bring a friend to the range) to get it configured the way I want, or should/could I just pick up a SAINT since it seems to come from the factory configured close to my preferred setup. I'm aware I can change anything/everything on the Colt I care to, but it takes a good bit of cash to make the changes I want.
I think I'll sit back and watch the reviews of the SAINT as it gets into people's hands and go from there
I could be wrong but doesn't the military have a huge department called an armory that works on broken Colt rifles every day?
Yes, and so does every other entity that produces products intended to be wrung out to the max performance of the design. Ferrari for example. Snap-on tools. Mac trucks. Boeing aircraft. It goes on. Anything that is used in a professional capacity will be pushed to and beyond nominal of the design, and therefore need service and repair.
I buy Hilti hand tools for my employees. We use them hard and for extended periods until they fail (and they will). But compared to other offerings in the same category they are HEAD and SHOULDERS above. And CS is top notch.
Like I said, the SA may well prove itself. But at this point, it still needs to do just that.
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Clyde armory has the saint for $854 plus tax. They also have oem 1's for $769. Walk across the store and grab a set of colt hand guards for $33, a magpul moe stock for $35, a magpul trigger guard for $9.99 and you have a proven, bet your life on this carbine for a few bucks less. I guess to equal it out you need a rear sight. That would take you to ~$30 more if you went with mbus.
I voted with my cash and bought another colt.
I could be wrong but doesn't the military have a huge department called an armory that works on broken Colt rifles every day?
They certainly do. I took three venerable Colt's, shielding my eyes from the aura they emitted, to the armorer for various problems in the 4 years I served. All problems were in the states, before I deployed, and all were on brand new M4's that we unpacked from the factory.
Why does every single thread in here turn into a Colt vs. Everyone thread? It's like a weird cult.
They certainly do. I took three venerable Colt's, shielding my eyes from the aura they emitted, to the armorer for various problems in the 4 years I served. All problems were in the states, before I deployed, and all were on brand new M4's that we unpacked from the factory.
Why does every single thread in here turn into a Colt vs. Everyone thread? It's like a weird cult.
It's because every gun that is brought up here is compared to the Colt.
They certainly do. I took three venerable Colt's, shielding my eyes from the aura they emitted, to the armorer for various problems in the 4 years I served. All problems were in the states, before I deployed, and all were on brand new M4's that we unpacked from the factory.
Why does every single thread in here turn into a Colt vs. Everyone thread? It's like a weird cult.
The Colt 6920 is the closest civilian version we have of the M4, so it sets a valuable baseline to compare other rifles. Nothing more and nothing less. The only time it's an issue is when the waters get muddied by Colt fan boys and/or Colt haters that prevent objective discussion.
MOLON AABE
11-06-16, 13:34
The Colt 6920 is the closest civilian version we have of the M4, so it sets a valuable baseline to compare other rifles. Nothing more and nothing less. The only time it's an issue is when the waters get muddied by Colt fan boys and/or Colt haters that prevent objective discussion.
How different are it's competitors? A complete BCM or DD rifle, if you exclude the furniture, or gas system type is for all intents and purposes the same or better than a Mil-Spec Colt M4 or 6920.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
How different are it's competitors? A complete BCM or DD rifle, if you exclude the furniture, or gas system type is for all intents and purposes the same or better than a Mil-Spec Colt M4 or 6920.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
You are correct. You can add knights and LMT to that list, and probably others. The Colt is a baseline.
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They certainly do. I took three venerable Colt's, shielding my eyes from the aura they emitted, to the armorer for various problems in the 4 years I served. All problems were in the states, before I deployed, and all were on brand new M4's that we unpacked from the factory.
Why does every single thread in here turn into a Colt vs. Everyone thread? It's like a weird cult.
No cult, in fact, those praising the Saint as superior to the venerable 6920 before they've ever fired a shot with it, are far closer to "cultish" behavior.
The 6920 is a known quantity, from a company that has demonstrated an ability to execute a repeatable process. The saint I'm sure is a fine rifle. Let's just wait and make sure is all I'm saying.
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Mysteryman
11-06-16, 14:25
So I assume you're gathering your info to share here where your Saint failed on you and wasn't reliable. Or are you just assuming that this rifle is garbage, because you know what they say about assumptions. The truth is that the only info anyone has about this rifles performance right now has been quite positive so I'm not grasping where this gun is garbage when I have yet to see any negatives aside from a plastic hand guard doing what any plastic hand guard would do under heavy fire. Just saying. Maybe we should sit back and at least give it a few months before we condemn it to garbage level.
I'm fairly confident the SAINT is a decent rifle on the whole. I am convinced based on the published data that this rifle is quite a few steps from being mil spec and therefore is not a great choice for serious work. The observations of others about the poorly staked castle nut is a clue. If SA can't spend the time to stake a castle nut properly then what else have they overlooked? It's the finer details that tell the story not the major selling points. The 4150 barrel steel is one of the two approved types that meet the TDP. There is no indication of HP or MPT testing having been done on batches of barrels let alone every barrel, a requirement of the mil spec TDP. Government contour is ok but far from ideal if weight and "swing ability" are concerned. The Melonite barrel finish good or bad is not per the TDP. The BCM furniture is great if that's what you want. If you're more of a Magpul grip kind of guy then you're paying for aftermarket parts you don't want or need. There's a very solid reason behind the OEM offerings from Colt and now Aero Precision. Most of the furniture gets replaced on a stock rifle so why offer it and increase the price if it's going to get dumped? Now others have said that the SAINT is marketed towards the new/novice shooter(see ignorant) and that seems to be the case. The new/novice shooter has no clue what a BCM gunfighter stock is nor how it outperforms a basic M4 type stock, so why offer it as standard and thereby increase the sale price? Offering a well built BASIC rifle at a lower price than your competitor will sell product. Half assing a basic rifle with some higher end aftermarket parts pleases neither the informed AR buyer/user nor does it's higher price appeal to the new/novice Ar buyer/user. From the Specs listed I would give the SAINT a go long before the S&W sport or the Ruger offering.
As as side note BCM is the only company to submit their guns for independent third party testing, thus proving their stuff is made to milspec standards. No other company has done so. Not saying that other companies are fraudulently advertising their products but they have not proven that with hard data. For slightly more money than a SAINT a guy could get a BCM upper and a decent lower(pick you brand) with either standard furniture. If you shop around you could find Magpul furniture or other brands for a bargain. The point is a guy could have a proven rifle that is 100% functional for similar money, less if he shops around and slightly more if time is short.
The defend your legacy is more about their entire line than just the SAINT. KM is far from dead. You would shocked to learn how many BCM KMR rails are sold a month.
C4
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The slogan is still rather tacky, and Keymod sales are great but it has technical deficiencies that MLOK does not.
MM
556BlackRifle
11-06-16, 15:54
The slogan is still rather tacky, and Keymod sales are great but it has technical deficiencies that MLOK does not.
MM
Hey MM, Can you please be more specific on what those deficiencies are? Thanks!
I'm fairly confident the SAINT is a decent rifle on the whole. I am convinced based on the published data that this rifle is quite a few steps from being mil spec and therefore is not a great choice for serious work. The observations of others about the poorly staked castle nut is a clue. If SA can't spend the time to stake a castle nut properly then what else have they overlooked? It's the finer details that tell the story not the major selling points. The 4150 barrel steel is one of the two approved types that meet the TDP. There is no indication of HP or MPT testing having been done on batches of barrels let alone every barrel, a requirement of the mil spec TDP. Government contour is ok but far from ideal if weight and "swing ability" are concerned. The Melonite barrel finish good or bad is not per the TDP. The BCM furniture is great if that's what you want. If you're more of a Magpul grip kind of guy then you're paying for aftermarket parts you don't want or need. There's a very solid reason behind the OEM offerings from Colt and now Aero Precision. Most of the furniture gets replaced on a stock rifle so why offer it and increase the price if it's going to get dumped? Now others have said that the SAINT is marketed towards the new/novice shooter(see ignorant) and that seems to be the case. The new/novice shooter has no clue what a BCM gunfighter stock is nor how it outperforms a basic M4 type stock, so why offer it as standard and thereby increase the sale price? Offering a well built BASIC rifle at a lower price than your competitor will sell product. Half assing a basic rifle with some higher end aftermarket parts pleases neither the informed AR buyer/user nor does it's higher price appeal to the new/novice Ar buyer/user. From the Specs listed I would give the SAINT a go long before the S&W sport or the Ruger offering.
As as side note BCM is the only company to submit their guns for independent third party testing, thus proving their stuff is made to milspec standards. No other company has done so. Not saying that other companies are fraudulently advertising their products but they have not proven that with hard data. For slightly more money than a SAINT a guy could get a BCM upper and a decent lower(pick you brand) with either standard furniture. If you shop around you could find Magpul furniture or other brands for a bargain. The point is a guy could have a proven rifle that is 100% functional for similar money, less if he shops around and slightly more if time is short.
The slogan is still rather tacky, and Keymod sales are great but it has technical deficiencies that MLOK does not.
MM
We still don't have enough data to judge the gun. Don't get me wrong I have no interest in any of the guns we are talking about, including the Colt. None of them are to my liking so I'm not at all biased one way or another. But one guy stating that a castle nut didn't look properly staked is far from anything we should even take serious at this point. As I said before the only real world info we have on this rifle has been positive and has been from reputable users and reviewers. So let's give it a bit more time. Besides I wouldn't be surprised at all if BCM played a bigger role in this gun than we think at this time. Why would Bravo Company associate themselves with a rifle that was subpar?
We still don't have enough data to judge the gun. Don't get me wrong I have no interest in any of the guns we are talking about, including the Colt. None of them are to my liking so I'm not at all biased one way or another. But one guy stating that a castle nut didn't look properly staked is far from anything we should even take serious at this point. As I said before the only real world info we have on this rifle has been positive and has been from reputable users and reviewers. So let's give it a bit more time. Besides I wouldn't be surprised at all if BCM played a bigger role in this gun than we think at this time. Why would Bravo Company associate themselves with a rifle that was subpar?
The term subpar is subjective to the intended use of the product. I think sometimes we lose sight of that fact. The expanse was much maligned when released, because it was "subpar" compared to the hard use guns. However, it was intended to fill a place in the market that wanted a budget yet functional, and more importantly upgradeable AR rifle. That is not subpar, but rather purposely designed for a specific market segment.
This rifle is no different. I don't expect the HSLD crowd to be interested in this gun. But I'm sure it will perform for those who it is intended for. Still, it needs to be vetted before we proclaim it "better than" other proven rifles.
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The term subpar is subjective to the intended use of the product. I think sometimes we lose sight of that fact. The expanse was much maligned when released, because it was "subpar" compared to the hard use guns. However, it was intended to fill a place in the market that wanted a budget yet functional, and more importantly upgradeable AR rifle. That is not subpar, but rather purposely designed for a specific market segment.
This rifle is no different. I don't expect the HSLD crowd to be interested in this gun. But I'm sure it will perform for those who it is intended for. Still, it needs to be vetted before we proclaim it "better than" other proven rifles.
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Well said. Completely understand.
Mysteryman
11-07-16, 16:15
We still don't have enough data to judge the gun. Don't get me wrong I have no interest in any of the guns we are talking about, including the Colt. None of them are to my liking so I'm not at all biased one way or another. But one guy stating that a castle nut didn't look properly staked is far from anything we should even take serious at this point. As I said before the only real world info we have on this rifle has been positive and has been from reputable users and reviewers. So let's give it a bit more time. Besides I wouldn't be surprised at all if BCM played a bigger role in this gun than we think at this time. Why would Bravo Company associate themselves with a rifle that was subpar?
I agree that the user reports and evidence aren't that deep to make hard claims about the rifle. That being said the stats on the rifle indicate it is not a serious use rifle and by proxy was grossly over hyped by SA. BCM has sold their furniture to SA to include as part of their SAINT package, nothing more. I would not be surprised if they offered their insight into the basic design/configuration of the rifle. That does not mean that BCM is endorsing the rifle nor do they have anymore of a vested interest than simply selling their furniture. Having SA use their hand guard, grip and stock is a guaranteed large quantity sale and the brand recognition of SA goes a long way in transferring to BCM as well. Free advertising and a guaranteed sale, a smart business move for BCM.
MM
What stats are not serious? The 4150 CMV barrel? The 7071 forged upper & lower with Type III Class 2 anodizing? The MPT and shoot peened bolt? F marked FSB? H buffer? The dry flim lube in the upper and RE? I guess it's the mid length gas system,1:8 twist and Meloniting that kills it...
What stats are not serious? The 4150 CMV barrel? The 7071 forged upper & lower with Type III Class 2 anodizing? The MPT and shoot peened bolt? F marked FSB? H buffer? The dry flim lube in the upper and RE? I guess it's the mid length gas system,1:8 twist and Meloniting that kills it...
Meloniting is what marks it as a "?" for me. They nailed everything else, so why deviate from a known quantity?
I seriously do question the furniture choice. Nothing objectively wrong with it, but why didn't they go Magpul? Magpul is much more recognized brand, and polymer handguards work better with MLOK than Keymod.
For me, I'd rather just pick up an OEM1 or a 6720.
polymer handguards work better with MLOK than Keymod.
The last time I heard anything about these BCM handguards, they had steel inserts molded in for the KeyMod attachment points.
Meloniting is what marks it as a "?" for me. They nailed everything else, so why deviate from a known quantity?
Probably to save production costs and meet a price point while still being "good enough" for the purposes of most people who'd buy the rifle off the rack. For a no shit military rifle, hard chromes 2 biggest advantages are corrosion resistance and wear resistance under extreme duty cycles, like full auto fire. Anyone buying this rifle off the rack probably isn't using it for the latter at all. For the former, I personally prefer chrome lined but in all honesty, corrosion resistance capable of standing up to the jungles of SE Asia is a little bit of overkill for North Alabama and really most of CONUS.
At the end of the day it appears on paper to be a decent turn key rifle designed for the person who's going to walk into their LGS and grab a rifle with a recognizable name.
Looks like the guns I have been building for years. About time.
These things are barely in user's hands yet -- we should all hold fire until credible sources and members have spent legit time running and give their reviews.
Grant won one; I'm sure we'd all be thankful if he were inclined to pull it apart and post an assessment of parts quality and proper build. SA's spec sheet has some good looking but ultimately limited accounting vis-a-vis what most of us here like to see in a build; further insights are needed.
Let's also bear in mind that whatever this SAINT program is, it isn't just this AR -- SA's tipping that it will be a line of firearms and seemingly more relating to attitude and lifestyle. We'll see.
I get the knocks on the trendy Nike-style campaign but don't mind it, and I give SA credit for two things: reaching out to an age and market segment that I think needs to be introduced and/or brought further into the shooting fold, in a media language and platform that's more likely to resonate; and most importantly -- couching this whole campaign within a broader context of understanding and embracing the Second Amendment, and cultivating a view of self-defense as being a personal responsibility girded by mindset, physical preparedness and skills training.
I can't think of any other major firearms manufacturer putting the whole brand on something so ideological that though many of us may take for granted, much of the larger population doesn't consider in these terms, and others openly oppose.
I don't need a SAINT AR, but I'm interested to see what the verdict on them will be because more well-built firearms (if so) is a good thing. But props to SA now for a full-throated ad campaign that takes an open stand on a divisive issue; most of the other big brands seem to want to get their product to the market quickly and quietly.
These things are barely in user's hands yet -- we should all hold fire until credible sources and members have spent legit time running and give their reviews.
Grant won one; I'm sure we'd all be thankful if he were inclined to pull it apart and post an assessment of parts quality and proper build. SA's spec sheet has some good looking but ultimately limited accounting vis-a-vis what most of us here like to see in a build; further insights are needed.
...
Agreed - I'd really like to see Grant's (or other professional's first hand) impressions on parts and build quality.
I do have to say, though, if I can get and outfit a LE6920 for near the same price that's still a no brainer until the saint gets a proven track record.
Probably to save production costs and meet a price point while still being "good enough" for the purposes of most people who'd buy the rifle off the rack. For a no shit military rifle, hard chromes 2 biggest advantages are corrosion resistance and wear resistance under extreme duty cycles, like full auto fire. Anyone buying this rifle off the rack probably isn't using it for the latter at all. For the former, I personally prefer chrome lined but in all honesty, corrosion resistance capable of standing up to the jungles of SE Asia is a little bit of overkill for North Alabama and really most of CONUS.
At the end of the day it appears on paper to be a decent turn key rifle designed for the person who's going to walk into their LGS and grab a rifle with a recognizable name.
I'm confused, I see a lot of posts saying the melonited barrel is a negative, but I was under the impression that corrosion resistance with a melonite barrel was better than chrome lining and wear resistance nearly as good, all while allowing for a potentially more accurate barrel. Just for the record I think chrome lined barrels are great for a hard use gun, but melonite barrels are supposed to be great too aren't they?
Saw one at the gun store today. I think it is a very nice rifle. They only had one display sample that was not for sale. Price tag was $850 plus tax. They're expecting more to come in.
I'm confused, I see a lot of posts saying the melonited barrel is a negative, but I was under the impression that corrosion resistance with a melonite barrel was better than chrome lining and wear resistance nearly as good, all while allowing for a potentially more accurate barrel. Just for the record I think chrome lined barrels are great for a hard use gun, but melonite barrels are supposed to be great too aren't they?
My understanding of the metallurgy is that melonite loses a fair portion of its wear resistance in the environment of a firing gun barrel whereas hard chrome does not.
Similar on the corrosion resistance since it's a relatively thin surface treatment.
It's not that melonite is a bad choice, it's just not the optimal choice for combat weapon expected to perform in extreme conditions and usage spectrum.
Requirements drive specifications so whether you need the performance level of chrome is up to the individual. If you play around in the Florida swamps constantly and never clean your weapon chrome probably is a necessity. Otherwose it's probably just insurance against issues.
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I think it's HK that uses Meloniting (or a similar process) on barrels of rifles they make for military sales
I am hoping for a few more "EEK! Plastic melts!" people to chime in.
I think it's HK that uses Meloniting (or a similar process) on barrels of rifles they make for military salesI don't know abut their broader line-up, but the HK416 is chrome lined; the civvy version is [CORRECTION -- thanks, ABNAK] unlined.
Meloniting is what marks it as a "?" for me. They nailed everything else, so why deviate from a known quantity?
I seriously do question the furniture choice. Nothing objectively wrong with it, but why didn't they go Magpul? Magpul is much more recognized brand, and polymer handguards work better with MLOK than Keymod.
For me, I'd rather just pick up an OEM1 or a 6720.
Let's face it, outside of sites like this, the mass market has been convinced that melonite is the new whiz bang, "better" coating. The fact that it may be cheaper from a production standpoint never dawns on the average consumer.
The last time I heard anything about these BCM handguards, they had steel inserts molded in for the KeyMod attachment points.
That is what I recall as well. Steel inserts for the keymod sections.
Since the bore treatment question keeps coming up, here's an informative thread on the subject: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?171789-Melonite-vs-Chrome-Lined-Longevity
Let's face it, outside of sites like this, the mass market has been convinced that melonite is the new whiz bang, "better" coating. The fact that it may be cheaper from a production standpoint never dawns on the average consumer.Often true, but its corollary is the erroneous assumption that a less expensive process is de facto inferior.
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