View Full Version : HELP My Parents Select Their First Handgun
ColtSeavers
11-04-16, 23:14
This is very odd for me but, here we go...
Joe Friday version for fellow members:
Convinced them on 9mm
They prefer manual safety
Must be able to accept a weapon mounted light
Must be able to accept night sights
They want higher capacity
Guns I have suggested:
Beretta 92a1
Beretta m9a3
H&K p30ls
Glock 17
Sig Sauer p226
CZ 75
CZ 85
CZ SP-01
Guns my father has shot with me at the range recently for the first time in like 45 years and his impressions:
Beretta 92a1: Liked it, shot is well, but a bit heavy (metal guide rod and x300b installed)
Glock 17: He could not shoot more than 1 round w/out it dumping the mag and I could not shoot more than 2 rounds w/out it dumping the mag coupled with a complete lack of extranous safety was the best way to instantly kill this a contender.
H&K vp9: Father really liked how it handled, shot it well and felt a little bit lighter than my Beretta 92a1. Because of this I hunted down the p30ls which as far as I can tell is the same gun with an external safety option.
Friend of the family is suggesting the Springfield XDM, which I do not personally have anything against, but have made the roll pin(s) replacement procedure known to them as well as a few complaints of (very) early magazine spring fatigue.
Father wants lighter weight if not polymer offerings for weight savings for my mother. My counter argument is that any additional weight soaks up recoil as well as how often are either of then ever going to be hefting around the handgun. Leaning towards lighter weight but believe it's a wash.
I really want to buy them a Beretta 92a1, give them some of my magazines and ammo stash and call it a win win, but that is not right. So, here I am, asking you all to help me with suggestions of what they can look for that I have missed out on and that meet their criteria.
As far as they are concerned there is no time limit. This is just something to experience, process and ultimately, maybe, decide upon.
As far as I am concerned, this sh!t should be done ASAP.
Coal Dragger
11-05-16, 00:09
Unless your mom has man hands, which I doubt, and they simply must have a manual safety... HK P30 is your best bet. The other choices will have grip frames that simply will not fit most female's hands.
The DA trigger pull on the P30 is atrocious, but it can be used cocked and locked with the thumb safety.
A VP9 will be less expensive and easier to use, but obviously has no external safety.
Good luck.
ColtSeavers
11-05-16, 00:45
Thank you for the info.
Yeah, I fear a rather insurmountable problem is the complete lack of urgency combined with the fact that only my father is currently physically trying anything.
I apologize to anyone that feels this is an exercise in futility, but I've got to do something.
askani79705
11-05-16, 00:53
Sig 2022. Has a hammer (old school),it's light,has a rail,accurate,reliable,and cheap.
Vegasshooter
11-05-16, 02:15
The S&W M&P can be had with a manual safety. Checks every box, and all in all, a great gun.
The S&W M&P can be had with a manual safety. Checks every box, and all in all, a great gun.
This. I EDC a S&W Shield with which I am absolutely impressed. It is nevertheless limited to a capacity of 7 rounds with the flush fitting magazine or 8 rounds with extended magazine. The M&P 9C, which is somewhat thicker than the Shield has a higher round capacity. Both are polymer pistols available with external safeties. Check them out, as they may just be what you are looking for.
This. I EDC a S&W Shield with which I am absolutely impressed. It is nevertheless limited to a capacity of 7 rounds with the flush fitting magazine or 8 rounds with extended magazine. The M&P 9C, which is somewhat thicker than the Shield has a higher round capacity. Both are polymer pistols available with external safeties. Check them out, as they may just be what you are looking for.
I have a sister in law who wanted a G19 because that's what she was told to get until she tried to shoot one of mine. Her hands were too small for the grip and length of pull. The M&P9c was perfect for her small hands and the trigger was a little nicer than the Shield.
Urgency gets them a gun they have settled on and one your mom will probably never touch.
Take your/their time. Get your mom involved, she is part of the equation too.
Sent via telegraph with the same fingers I use to sip whiskey
Get them to an entry level training class where they can be exposed to a variety of firearms. Education is the basis for good decision making.
nightchief
11-05-16, 09:14
Are there any ranges local to you and your parents that rent hand guns? I took my 70+ mother shooting (for the first time) at a range near Fort Worth (Shoot Smart) beacuase she was interested in shooting a hand gun. The local range here has possibly 30 different hand guns to try out, many in 9mm. My mother has some difficulty operating the slide on a pistol because of a medical condition, so she is still in the "I don't know" stage, but, I got a lot of benefit working with her on her likes and dislikes. Walther PPQ is a top contender because of its trigger pull, ergo's and ease of use. No external safety though.
NC
556BlackRifle
11-05-16, 09:34
Be a good son and enroll them in a class where they can rent and try different pistols. Once they get comfortable with shooting you can work on the finding the right gun part of the equation. Personally, I prefer no external safeties unless it's a single action auto. Finding a pistol that satisfies both of their needs, wants and desires isn't going to be easy but I'm sure it can be done once they're ready for it. BTW, I wouldn't rule out a revolver. A nice .357 would make a great HD weapon. 38 Special is cheap and great to learn and practice with until they're ready to move up to 357. Good luck.
ColtSeavers
11-05-16, 10:13
Thank you all for the suggestions.
I have already taken my father to the range once so far to rent and shoot whatever he wants. He has yet to rent and shoot everything that both indoor ranges have to offer, but again, they are in no rush and I am doing my best to not be pushy, rather as unbiased and informative as I can be for them.
I actualy did bring bring a 4" GP100 and 6" GP100 to shoot .38 and .357 out of, but the lack of capacity and weapon mounted light kills revolvers as contenders.
Father has already taken firearms familiarity class, has been picking my brain for information and I will suggest an actual shooting class as well. His intent is to narrow the choice down to a couple contenders and to then have my mother give those contenders a shot
I will also suggest the S&W M&P.
On your original list the CZ-75 does not have a rail, the SP-01 is the railed version of the 75. You should also consider the CZ P-07 & P-09. They're essentially polymer versions of the 75 and have a light rail.
ColtSeavers
11-05-16, 12:23
I do undrstand that the CZ 75 does not have a rail, but as other CZs have an integral rail standard, I figured that like the VP9 my father shot and liked but was absent a physical saftey lever, he could at least get a feel for the tun and then hunt down the specific model that most closely matches his criteria should he become enamoured with it, like I hunted down the p30ls.
Also, as there are only two ranges to rent from, pickings will/may be slim so I didn't want him to get hung up on a specific model that may not be available for rent, when it's pretty much the same gun as another for rent.
It's not a perfect scrnario by any means, but we are trying.
This. I EDC a S&W Shield with which I am absolutely impressed. It is nevertheless limited to a capacity of 7 rounds with the flush fitting magazine or 8 rounds with extended magazine. The M&P 9C, which is somewhat thicker than the Shield has a higher round capacity. Both are polymer pistols available with external safeties. Check them out, as they may just be what you are looking for.
The Shield 8 round mag can be bumped to 10 rounds with a couple of company's extensions:
http://magguts.com/shop/smith-wesson/smith-wesson-shield
https://hyvetechnologiesbuilder.com/index.php/product/shield-9mm-2/
and pro mag sells a 10 rounder - https://promagindustries.com/smith-wesson/623-smi-28-smith-wesson-shield-933-10-rd-blue-steel-magazine.html
The Shield 8 round mag can be bumped to 10 rounds with a couple of company's extensions:
http://magguts.com/shop/smith-wesson/smith-wesson-shield
https://hyvetechnologiesbuilder.com/index.php/product/shield-9mm-2/
and pro mag sells a 10 rounder - https://promagindustries.com/smith-wesson/623-smi-28-smith-wesson-shield-933-10-rd-blue-steel-magazine.html
Thank you for those links. I had been wondering if there was a way to add extra rounds to the Shield.
Any personal experience with them? I'm leary of the ProMag, because...well it's a ProMag...
Sig 226 SAO?
It's big, heavy 9mm... which your father won't like but I - like you - think it will help your mother. It has a manual safety and a pretty good SA trigger (with no DA to worry about, obviously). 18 & 20 round MecGar mags for ~$30.
http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/E26R-9-BSE-SAO-LARGE.jpg
The CZ's which I like have a very long trigger reach. My recommendation is the Smith M&P Compact with safety. It offers excellent lifetime warranty, changeable grip size, and available magazines.
When I read the threads, I saw no mention of your parent's capability for racking the slide. If only one can handle the task, purchasing a revolver in addition to the pistol might be a good idea.
I'm thinking a CZ P07 would be about perfect. Comes standard with light rail and safety. Can easily get it upgraded with nights from the factory. Compact, lightweight and holds 15-17rds depending on mag. Plus it's extremely budget friendly.
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Coal Dragger
11-05-16, 20:47
ColtSeavers,
I know you won't like hearing this, but if this pistol is going to have to work for your mom too there is literally no point in looking at pistols with your dad. None.
Both of you will have more upper body strength and bigger stronger hands. The vast majority of the pistols on your list will be difficult for an inexperienced female shooter to handle comfortably. All this will result in is a very discouraged female shooter.
So you need to get her involved, or you should probably suggest that they need to acquire 2 handguns. One for her, and one for your dad.
I'll also make a pitch for leaving out the manual safety requirement since it greatly limits your options. Plus for a non trained user who will probably not practice enough repetitions to make it a subconscious level task, dealing with a safety is going to be a pain in the butt under stress. Modern striker fired pistols are plenty safe and are as close to being a magazine fed DA revolver as you can get. Plus they offer reasonable trigger reach, easy slide manipulation, light weight, and in the case of the three I will recommend, grip adjustability.
So take a look at:
1.) HK VP9 (you already have), grips don't get more adjustable than this and your dad already likes it. There's a 95% chance that the 3 sets of included side panels and back straps will yeild a combination your mom will be tickled with too. Plus the charging supports on the slide will make manipulation way easier for her. Good trigger, and good sights if you buy the LE model, mine even shoot to POA=POI out to 50 yards out of the box!
2.) Walther PPQ. Good trigger, nice ergos, includes 3 back straps to fit the pistol to a wide variety of hand sizes.
3.) SIG P320. Totally modular, replacement grip frames cost about $40 and can be had in small, medium, and large circumference as well as subcompact, compact, and full size grip/magazine frame and dust cover sizes. Additional slide assemblies can yield a wide combination of pistol sizes. My wife has a medium circumference grip compact frame with a full size slide and loves it to death. I'm not as fond of this pistol as I am my VP9 but it has grown on me a lot.
crusader377
11-05-16, 21:20
Although Coal Dragger listed some good pistols, for an inexperienced shooter I think I would go with the Walther P99 AS. It has all the shootability of the highly regarded Walther PPQ plus it has a double action mode which is safer for newer shooters.
If your local range carries the HK USP full-size 9mm pistol it is available with a manual safety. Also, depending on their hand size the USP Compact 9mm has a manual safety variant as well. The polymer framed pistols should reduce the over-all weight.
Both USP pistols can be mounted with a light and generally have a better trigger than the P-Series pistols.
Personally, I really like the P2000SK and think that model or even the P30SK would be a great choice for home and self-defense. The adjustable back-straps could help mom's hands adapt to the grip too.
Finally, if the Berreta 92 series is a favorite then the compact 13 shot model may be more desrable due to the lighter weight.
Thank you for those links. I had been wondering if there was a way to add extra rounds to the Shield.
Any personal experience with them? I'm leary of the ProMag, because...well it's a ProMag...
No, not yet. It is in line. My LCP and G43 were done first, currently I'm spending money on something else. I like the Shield, just haven't done any mods to it.
No, not yet. It is in line. My LCP and G43 were done first, currently I'm spending money on something else. I like the Shield, just haven't done any mods to it.
Well I'll recommend you get the APEX kit for it and I have the TLR-6 on mine and also recommend that.
I found 2 vids on the ProMag and both of them show what I suspected, it's shit. The Hyve Tech ones seem to work and all I could find on the Magguts ones are install vids.
ColtSeavers
11-06-16, 14:41
Thank you to those that continue to offer advice.
I have suggested the p226 and figured I could sway them to the sao elite, but I fear tthe negligible weight saving over a beretta will be it's disqualification
Regarding the manner in which the selection process is being handled, again, I agree it is not ideal, but the simple fact that they are even ok with and have gone this far, much less even handling and shooting guns is a mind-blowing, life perspective altering event for me.
I also have already given the 'guns are inanimate objects and will not simply go off because of a lack of a manual safety as afterall revolvers have no safety and are considered safe' spiel, but I am also trying to be as unbiased and unintrusive as possible so that they are ultimately as comfortable in their purchase as can be.
Once the options are narrowed down to a few, that's when my mother will be brought in for a final try of the finalists and will either give her blessing to one, or reject all of them and change the criteria to be met.
This is not my call, it is theirs.
I will also tell them of Walthers, and the Sig p320, though I am unsure of any with a manual safety which will likely kill their consideration.
I will also try to get them to try other H&K offerings as well.
Regarding getting a Beretta, while I feel this is exactly what they should get, as it meets all of their criteria, it's weight is somehow considered to be too much. Also, as I and now my wife already have Berettas of our own, I do not want to push the weight being a complete non issue for a gun that will only ever see the inside of a bedroom drawer/safe and the range and come across as being biased.
BuzzinSATX
11-06-16, 15:24
Colt,
Based on all your requirements, I have to echo the M&P with a manual safety OR this:
http://ruger.com/products/rugerAmericanPistol/specSheets/8639.html
I know Ruger doesn't get much love on this board, but both the SR series and the new American series meet all your specs, and Ruger's customer service is very solid.
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BuzzinSATX
11-06-16, 15:29
Also, I will add that while I LOVE my PPQ .45, I would be very hesitant to suggest it to a new shooter, primarily because it has such a light trigger. Obviously, following the "4 rules" would prevent an issue, but we all know "schtuff happens"...
If I were to point them at a Walther, it might be that new Creed or an older model with a heavier trigger.
Best wishes to you and your folks!
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If not for a manual safety (though there is the ability) the CZ P-09 is the best choice.
But since a manual safety requirement the M&P series is hard to beat.
I would say in lieu of a thumb safety I would encourage the gun stored in a IWB holster or a Raven VG2 or similar easily removed trigger guard cover. What I've encountered is people with safeties and decocker forget to do both. The easiest solution is just to take them out of the equation. Loaded guns that aren't on my belt are always stored in an IWB kydex holster. Find something your mom can shoot, fits her hand and she can rack the slide, even if that means using the edge of a table to do it. I especially like how you can tie the end of a VG2 to a nightstand to rip it off when you need the gun. http://raven-concealment-systems1.mybigcommerce.com/vanguard-2-lanyard-kit/
ColtSeavers
11-08-16, 10:59
Neither range has a Ruger semi auto for rent, only revolvers unfortunately.
Regarding the physical presence of a safety lever, again, that is their equirement, not mine, and it one that I am not very concerned about other than limiting their options. However, regardless of the limited options, it is something that can easily be learned to operate by anyone, and if that is what it takes for them to actually keep it loaded with one in the chamber ready to go as well, so be it, I'm on board.
Unfortunately, I am the only one with a sense of urgency about all this, they are simply going through the motions at their leisure, despite the fact the election results will be done today. I am not trying to make them panic purchase, but I would like to see them be able to purchase while there are still options.
ETA: The holster idea is a good one, I had planned on buying them a FAS-1 safe with appropriate holster in it whenever they finally make their first purchase.
Glock 19 is #1 first hand gun choice. But mine was HK USP
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Nosigforyou
11-09-16, 07:11
If they insist on a manual safety, the M&P 9 and the Sig P320 (they just released a model with safety) are great choices due to modularity and multiple ergonomic choices.
If they can handle a DA/SA, consider the P30, and the polymer CZ's. Also nice ergos.
Good luck! I've had no luck picking guns for others since people want what they want and like what they like. But now I have a fun assortment...
Ditto on M&P compact suggestion. Very good with full capacity mags too.
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ColtSeavers
11-10-16, 10:17
Well, I guess my parents knew something I did not, again, as now they can continue their comfortable approach to getting their first handgun.
Thank you all again for the suggestions.
BuzzinSATX
11-11-16, 18:25
Well, I guess my parents knew something I did not, again, as now they can continue their comfortable approach to getting their first handgun.
Thank you all again for the suggestions.
I can appreciate their wanting to take their time to find the right firearm to suit their needs. But ultimately, as long as they don't have one, they don't have a means of effectively defending themselves should they experience a home invasion.
I'm not saying they should run out and get something tomorrow, but we all realize the reality that you don't get to pick the time or place when you actually really need that firearm. Just food for thought.
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M&P9 compact is the logical choice. I'm not a fan, but it should be perfect for what your parents are looking for.
Edit: if the P320 with safety really came out I change my vote to P320 without question.
ColtSeavers
11-11-16, 21:07
I can appreciate their wanting to take their time to find the right firearm to suit their needs. But ultimately, as long as they don't have one, they don't have a means of effectively defending themselves should they experience a home invasion.
I'm not saying they should run out and get something tomorrow, but we all realize the reality that you don't get to pick the time or place when you actually really need that firearm. Just food for thought.
I agree wholeheartidly. I'm just trying to help lead this horse to water.
ColtSeavers
11-13-16, 16:49
Look at the CZ 75D PCR
I will keep it in mind should they decide they like the CZ line (don't remember exactly which is for rent locally), thank you.
Look at the CZ 75D PCR
I've had a 75D PCR since 2000, and consider it one of the best all around 9MM pistols made. However, the OP said they wanted to mount a light, so the P-01 would be my recommendation. I'm not a fan of lights on hand guns, but many are.
ColtSeavers
11-13-16, 18:46
I've had a 75D PCR since 2000, and consider it one of the best all around 9MM pistols made. However, the OP said they wanted to mount a light, so the P-01 would be my recommendation. I'm not a fan of lights on hand guns, but many are.
Yes, as I tried to convey earlier, I figure just getting my father if not my mother as well to manhandle if not shoot as many as possible, regardless of specific model intricacies, would be the best bet. Once they hone things down to a handleful, thn their requirements (new or unchanged) can be used as a pro/con list for each finalist with consideration for model lines that can meat those criteria (as with the CZ 75 not having a rail but the P-01 having one and 'basically' being the same gun).
My large family prefers the following in order of popularity and size & weight except #4:
1. M&P Shield 9mm with thumb safety for younger & smaller female hands & most easily concealed.
2. Walther PPS 9mm step up from Shield in every way with rail for attachments like Jerico 941 #3 below. My, one of our sons preference & wife also likes PPS as 2nd to Shield. Is easier to practice with at range higher volume. We all shoot Shield and PPS equally but PPS is more ergonomic.
3. Jerico 941 by IWI 9mm 10 round cap. 4.4"overall w/ 3.8" bbl. Is an extremely reliable and practical model with rail for attachments and another step up from the PPS. Do not own but it has excellent reputation. It is a refined, improved variant on the CZ-75 as I understand things. Another step up in quality, price and heft but not one to bypass if you want a range high volume shooter that doubles as home protection that can be carried easily in winter. My opinion on par with Sig in quality and durability.
4. EAA Witness Carry Compact Poly 10mm by Tanfoglio 4" w 3.6" IIRC bbl. For the person in you life who believes in superior protection and posseses skills to tame it. But not for soft or weak wristed as it is designed strictly a carry / bedside home protection utitilarian piece and quickly wears you out at range. By far the best sub $500 gun I ever bought with Italian design incorporating some of the best 1911 features. Slap a slightly longer barrel in this one to meet our states bbl minimum length and this one is my new deer hunting gun loaded with (13 inc chamber) one of three ammunition mfr's rounds still making full power origional spec rounds. The only really compact pistol that can reach through car doors and still send one trying to take a innocents life to where one belongs. Tip, you must have very strong hands to get last round in clip. Available in 15 rd carry model also.
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