View Full Version : So what if I made my own 1911???
One of my customers is a high end 1911 smith. He and I were talking the other day about which 1911's I should stock. I mentioned that I was interested in NightHawk and maybe WC. He made the comment to me that he could build me custom guns from the ground up (not taking a Springfield or Kimber and re-working it) and they would be in the same price line as NH or WC.
I must say that I like the idea of building custom guns from the ground up (so you know that every part is the very best).
Thoughts/interest in this type of thing?
C4
K.L. Davis
10-15-06, 15:05
Grant...
You timing is funny, I was just IMing some folks about something like this... I have a box of 1911 parts that I am going to put together, back from when I did pistols.
As you know I have a manufacturing license and have ran a few guns under the name... currently just rifles, but I did some 1911s years back -- the total cost is not that bad, depending of course on how many frames/slides you are ordering.
A couple of things to think about... liability insurance for manufacturing pistols is higher than long guns and getting them on the "approved" list in some states is kind of an expesive venture... I just did not sell to people in those states.
Let me know if you want some more info on who makes frames on a letter or variance and what the best quality out there is.
Grant...
You timing is funny, I was just IMing some folks about something like this... I have a box of 1911 parts that I am going to put together, back from when I did pistols.
As you know I have a manufacturing license and have ran a few guns under the name... currently just rifles, but I did some 1911s years back -- the total cost is not that bad, depending of course on how many frames/slides you are ordering.
A couple of things to think about... liability insurance for manufacturing pistols is higher than long guns and getting them on the "approved" list in some states is kind of an expesive venture... I just did not sell to people in those states.
Let me know if you want some more info on who makes frames on a letter or variance and what the best quality out there is.
As always, thanks for the info. I am looking into insurance and some other issues right now.
C4
Grant, if you could sell 1911's as good or better than my RRA, available within a reasonable time frame for a reasonable price, I'd buy one. I doubt I'd be alone in making that decision. I doubt I'd ever buy a NH or WC though.
Grant, if you could sell 1911's as good or better than my RRA, available within a reasonable time frame for a reasonable price, I'd buy one. I doubt I'd be alone in making that decision. I doubt I'd ever buy a NH or WC though.
My goal would be to produce a full custom gun (not a semi-production gun) for $2,000-$2,500.
C4
It depends on the reputation of the 'smith. An up-and-coming smith that can turn out a quality, full house 1911, for $2,500 in a reasonable amount of time is a real gem.
Mike
It depends on the reputation of the 'smith. An up-and-coming smith that can turn out a quality, full house 1911, for $2,500 in a reasonable amount of time is a real gem.
Mike
MAP is right.
Everything will depend on the gunsmith.
It depends on the reputation of the 'smith. An up-and-coming smith that can turn out a quality, full house 1911, for $2,500 in a reasonable amount of time is a real gem.
Mike
..and the world shall beat a path to his door. MAP is dead nuts on Grant. I think the market is primed for this. Take a look at the waiting list of the name guys. We'll have plasma rifles before some people see their pistols.
You can go a couple of ways. One way is to have an a la carte menu where you pick a frame, slide and components and add them up as you wish. Even high end parts are not that expensive, its the fitting (and corresponding labor) that adds up quick.
The second way is to offer levels, say three, that have certain components. By limiting the choices, the smith can produce more I would think but again it goes to the fitting. Since everyone is so into their 1911s being tight fitted tack drivers ( next time you see someone pick up a high end 1911 in a store, watch them. I guarantee the first thing they do is shake it to see if the slide rattles, which they think is bad), labor really makes the pistols climb the price ladder in a hurry.
The two guys that made my 1911 Colt Tactical are taking the second way. They are working out deals with suppliers now. They have been working at a firearms manufactuer here in CT while their new shop is being built and have learned a lot about where to best focus the labor to produce a fighting pistol. I'd rather have the barrel hard fit and the extractor properly installed than have the top of the slide serrated or the front strap checkered if I had to choose. I think the smiths that make the right choices for a fighting gun, can maintain high quality and can get them into a customer's hand before the second coming of Christ might just do well.
It depends on the reputation of the 'smith. An up-and-coming smith that can turn out a quality, full house 1911, for $2,500 in a reasonable amount of time is a real gem.
Mike
This guy is a long time veteran and has more work than he can handle just by word of mouth.
C4
..and the world shall beat a path to his door. MAP is dead nuts on Grant. I think the market is primed for this. Take a look at the waiting list of the name guys. We'll have plasma rifles before some people see their pistols.
You can go a couple of ways. One way is to have an a la carte menu where you pick a frame, slide and components and add them up as you wish. Even high end parts are not that expensive, its the fitting (and corresponding labor) that adds up quick.
The second way is to offer levels, say three, that have certain components. By limiting the choices, the smith can produce more I would think but again it goes to the fitting. Since everyone is so into their 1911s being tight fitted tack drivers ( next time you see someone pick up a high end 1911 in a store, watch them. I guarantee the first thing they do is shake it to see if the slide rattles, which they think is bad), labor really makes the pistols climb the price ladder in a hurry.
The two guys that made my 1911 Colt Tactical are taking the second way. They are working out deals with suppliers now. They have been working at a firearms manufactuer here in CT while their new shop is being built and have learned a lot about where to best focus the labor to produce a fighting pistol. I'd rather have the barrel hard fit and the extractor properly installed than have the top of the slide serrated or the front strap checkered if I had to choose. I think the smiths that make the right choices for a fighting gun, can maintain high quality and can get them into a customer's hand before the second coming of Christ might just do well.
I like the tiered approach, low, medium and high. We are working on numbers and ideas right now.
Thanks for the input guys.
C4
The tier approach is somewhat similar to the Yost-Bonitz 1* approach with higher prices for higher levels of work performed.
What sort of frame and slide would you be starting with?
Are you going to sell "box-stock" Colt's?
Are you going to sell "box-stock" Colt's?
Don't think so.
C4
Dont waste your time and or money stocking high end 1911s, they wont sell enough to be worth it. The folks who will spend $2K for a 1911, already know who they will buy from.
Been there, done that.
Dont waste your time and or money stocking high end 1911s, they wont sell enough to be worth it. The folks who will spend $2K for a 1911, already know who they will buy from.
Been there, done that.
I was going to suggest he contact you and get your take on this.
Dont waste your time and or money stocking high end 1911s, they wont sell enough to be worth it. The folks who will spend $2K for a 1911, already know who they will buy from.
Been there, done that.
Agree here.
What the market may consume would be a mid-level (~$1500) 1911 that has enough good stuff (no mim, decent sight, trigger, GS) to satisfy even a high round count user without a lot of frills. The Colt Gunsite pistol comes to mind here. I'd do it in blasted stainless with an added cost option to get it coated in a few different colors. If it gains the rep of being reliable, reliable, reliable with no shortcut parts, it will sell plenty.
Agree here.
What the market may consume would be a mid-level (~$1500) 1911 that has enough good stuff (no mim, decent sight, trigger, GS) to satisfy even a high round count user without a lot of frills. The Colt Gunsite pistol comes to mind here. I'd do it in blasted stainless with an added cost option to get it coated in a few different colors. If it gains the rep of being reliable, reliable, reliable with no shortcut parts, it will sell plenty.
I agree. The Adco spec RRA was a perfect example of this. I would already own TWO of the Adco guns if they had left off the front strap serrations, and I would suggest leaving it off of any other guns at this price point. End users can always have the serrations added if they need/want them, but can't ever take them off. Same thing goes for front cocking serrations if you were thinking of adding those.
Akoni's suggestion of making them in stainless allows end-users to add the serrations they want without having to refinish.
Dont waste your time and or money stocking high end 1911s, they wont sell enough to be worth it. The folks who will spend $2K for a 1911, already know who they will buy from.
Been there, done that.
I hear ya Steve. I think how these will differ is that they will be full custom (not semi-production) and the consumer won't have to wait. I know a good many people would love to buy a full custom weapon for around $2,000-$2,500 and didn't have to wait on it (as shown in this thread).
C4
Agree here.
What the market may consume would be a mid-level (~$1500) 1911 that has enough good stuff (no mim, decent sight, trigger, GS) to satisfy even a high round count user without a lot of frills. The Colt Gunsite pistol comes to mind here. I'd do it in blasted stainless with an added cost option to get it coated in a few different colors. If it gains the rep of being reliable, reliable, reliable with no shortcut parts, it will sell plenty.
No MIM parts and the guns will be finished in Cerakote. I think I might do a $1,500, a $2k and a $2,500 priced pistol to cover everything in between.
C4
You can debate this stuff till your blue in the face, but I would bet below $700 1911’s out sell the high-end models 100 to 1. Guys buy them, shoot them twice a year for two hundred rounds total and throw them back in the safe. Like Bigbore stated 1911 buyers in this price range usually know what they want before they ever contact you.
It’s also a waste of time debating options like front strap checkering, front cocking serrations, etc. 1911 options are a very personal thing. Stating any production/semi-custom/full custom 1911 “Does Not Need Them” is a joke because no matter how much you believe it there are plenty of guys standing right next to you on the line who demand them on a serious use handgun.
It’s the equivalent to talking to a wall. Stating your preferences is fine, but making them out to be anything more is a waste of bandwidth.
You can debate this stuff till your blue in the face, but I would bet below $700 1911’s out sell the high-end models 100 to 1. Guys buy them, shoot them twice a year for two hundred rounds total and throw them back in the safe. Like Bigbore stated 1911 buyers in this price range usually know what they want before they ever contact you.
It’s also a waste of time debating options like front strap checkering, front cocking serrations, etc. 1911 options are a very personal thing. Stating any production/semi-custom/full custom 1911 “Does Not Need Them” is a joke because no matter how much you believe it there are plenty of guys standing right next to you on the line who demand them on a serious use handgun.
It’s the equivalent to talking to a wall. Stating your preferences is fine, but making them out to be anything more is a waste of bandwidth.
No doubt that the $700 1911's will out sell the expensive ones. I intend to stock those cheap Kimbers and Springfields. I also know a lot of folks like sem-custom weapons in the $1,500-$2,500 range. This is the market I intend to open up a bit with higher quality 1911's for the same money.
I also did watch Steve struggle to move those high quality RRA 1911's (which I did find surprising). That lesson is not lost on me.
C4
It’s also a waste of time debating options like front strap checkering, front cocking serrations, etc. 1911 options are a very personal thing. Stating any production/semi-custom/full custom 1911 “Does Not Need Them” is a joke because no matter how much you believe it there are plenty of guys standing right next to you on the line who demand them on a serious use handgun.
If that's directed at me, you missed the point of my post. I'm only using my own experience with the ADCO-sped RRA pistols as an example when discussing market, not utility.
I don't think that omitting the front strap checkering would have cost ADCO one sale and I think that it would (should?) have reduced the overall price of the gun by at least $50. It did, however, cost them at least two sales to me and I'm sure several others.
As I said before, if end-users want them they can add them, but those that don't want them can't take them away. Not having checkering also means that end-users can pick the pattern and LPI they want instead of being stuck with what's already on the gun. Make the gun stainless and they don't even have to refinish it when they're done.
I hear ya Steve. I think how these will differ is that they will be full custom (not semi-production) and the consumer won't have to wait. I know a good many people would love to buy a full custom weapon for around $2,000-$2,500 and didn't have to wait on it (as shown in this thread).
C4
It strikes me that you may be mis-using the term "custom", as is common in the 1911 market.
According to www.dictionary.com
cus·tom
adj.
1. Made to order.
2. Specializing in the making or selling of made-to-order goods: a custom tailor.
In other words, custom is not automatically high-end and high-end is not automatically custom. It sounds to me like what you are actually proposing is 3 price levels, and resultant finish and accessory levels, of high-end 1911, but not actual custom work. What you are talking about is high-end production just like RRA, Wilson, Nighthawk, Brown, Baer, etc. My Ed Brown Special Forces came one way and one way only.
"Custom" is what Bob Rodgers, Chuck Rogers, Ned Christiansen, Ted Yost, Hilton Yam, etc. do. Some of those 'smiths do offer "packages", but the user can deviate from that package as they desire for a truly "custom" gun or start completely from scratch with their own wish list. As an example, I ordered a Yost 1* Enhanced but then made some changes particular to my purposes.
If you truly mean made to order custom guns, then all you become is a middle-man and broker for a customer that could in theory go straight to the 'smith and save themselves your fee. If you mean high-end production then you're going to be competing in a very crowded market.
If you truly mean made to order custom guns, then all you become is a middle-man and broker for a customer that could in theory go straight to the 'smith and save themselves your fee. If you mean high-end production then you're going to be competing in a very crowded market.
Thats why this is a bad business decision. The money spent will put much more food on your table spent on other goods.
High end 1911 people, in general are the most anal PITA people to own firearms. If they want something now, or a few month wait, it will be one of the crowded market pistols mentioned above, or bought from whoever has it in stock with most of the features they want.
Its all about the Brand Recognition, and telling everyone I have a "Hilton-Rogers-Roger Yam-Ned" 1911!!!
You wont sell any of the high end 1911 people a pistol built by someone they, or their friends havent heard of.
If I said I had a 1911 reworked by John Miller, there probably isnt a person here who knows that name, or would give it a second thought.
Grant - let it go, its all for the best:(
steve
Is /was stocking dealer for RRA, Ed Brown, Springfield Custom Shop, Wilson Combat, Les Baer, and Gun Crafter.
It strikes me that you may be mis-using the term "custom", as is common in the 1911 market.
According to www.dictionary.com
In other words, custom is not automatically high-end and high-end is not automatically custom. It sounds to me like what you are actually proposing is 3 price levels, and resultant finish and accessory levels, of high-end 1911, but not actual custom work. What you are talking about is high-end production just like RRA, Wilson, Nighthawk, Brown, Baer, etc. My Ed Brown Special Forces came one way and one way only.
"Custom" is what Bob Rodgers, Chuck Rogers, Ned Christiansen, Ted Yost, Hilton Yam, etc. do. Some of those 'smiths do offer "packages", but the user can deviate from that package as they desire for a truly "custom" gun or start completely from scratch with their own wish list. As an example, I ordered a Yost 1* Enhanced but then made some changes particular to my purposes.
If you truly mean made to order custom guns, then all you become is a middle-man and broker for a customer that could in theory go straight to the 'smith and save themselves your fee. If you mean high-end production then you're going to be competing in a very crowded market.
Custom means two things in my book. The first one is that the item deviates from they stereotypical "norm." My second thought on the word custom deals in how the 1911 is fitted. Meaning that the gunsmith spends 15 hours on body work alone (blending parts, removing scratches, polishing, etc, etc). Every part is fitted to that weapon (read no out of the box parts slapped together). To be honest, very few "big name" 1911's smith's do ANYTHING like this as they just don't have the time. The are generally doing some trigger work and some checkering and calling it a day. You are simply paying for the name and got almost NO custom fitting/blending/polishing done to the weapon.
You are technically correct in that I will offer a package one way with nothing but the best of everything. We may deviate with the checkering patterns 30LPI VS 25LPI and such, but that will be about it. Either guy doesn't like it or he does.
C4
Thats why this is a bad business decision. The money spent will put much more food on your table spent on other goods.
High end 1911 people, in general are the most anal PITA people to own firearms. If they want something now, or a few month wait, it will be one of the crowded market pistols mentioned above, or bought from whoever has it in stock with most of the features they want.
Its all about the Brand Recognition, and telling everyone I have a "Hilton-Rogers-Roger Yam-Ned" 1911!!!
You wont sell any of the high end 1911 people a pistol built by someone they, or their friends havent heard of.
If I said I had a 1911 reworked by John Miller, there probably isnt a person here who knows that name, or would give it a second thought.
Grant - let it go, its all for the best:(
steve
Is /was stocking dealer for RRA, Ed Brown, Springfield Custom Shop, Wilson Combat, Les Baer, and Gun Crafter.
1911 guys are for sure some of the most PITA folks to deal with. What I intend to do is first keep the pistol smiths name a relative secret (as he wants it that way) and build one gun for myself. I will then show it to the world and use that feedback to figure out if it is worth my time.
As you and I know, people get stuck paying for a "custom gun" by "super cool guy" and all they actually got was a gun that had some parts slapped together. All the while charging you $3k. No one will ever know the guy I am usings name and they will have to buy the 1911 based fit/finish and accuracy (not name recognition).
C4
If that's directed at me, you missed the point of my post. I'm only using my own experience with the ADCO-sped RRA pistols as an example when discussing market, not utility.
I don't think that omitting the front strap checkering would have cost ADCO one sale and I think that it would (should?) have reduced the overall price of the gun by at least $50. It did, however, cost them at least two sales to me and I'm sure several others.
As I said before, if end-users want them they can add them, but those that don't want them can't take them away. Not having checkering also means that end-users can pick the pattern and LPI they want instead of being stuck with what's already on the gun. Make the gun stainless and they don't even have to refinish it when they're done.
Doing things this way (no checkering for instance) is actually what causes the problems. If you get the pistol without checkering and then want it, your right back in the waiting game for the smith to finish up your weapon. I am trying to do away with the 6 month wait for a custom weapon game that we all seem to get stuck with. If the guy doesn't want the checkering that we offer then it isn't the 1911 for them.
C4
High end 1911 people, in general are the most anal PITA people to own firearms.
No question about it. I pity anybody who has to deal with us for a living.
If they want something now, or a few month wait, it will be one of the crowded market pistols mentioned above, or bought from whoever has it in stock with most of the features they want.
Its all about the Brand Recognition, and telling everyone I have a "Hilton-Rogers-Roger Yam-Ned" 1911!!!
There is certainly a lot of truth to this statement. That being said there is also a reason for it. For most guys buying a high end 1911 is a serious amount of money and also the realization of a dream. Since most of us only know of a limited amount of 1911 familiar gunsmiths it makes perfect sense to spend your money with somebody who has “Weathered the Storm” so to be speak and stood the test of time building reliable guns.
I'm sure their are a great many super 1911 gunsmiths out their who are "Un-Known" to the masses, but how are we suppose to know they aren't one of the crack pot's who do nothing more than install parts?
It's a sad fact that for every "Great" yet to be discovered 1911 gunsmith on the market there are at least three shit heads. How are we suppose to know the difference based off nothing more than some photos on a website?
You wont sell any of the high end 1911 people a pistol built by someone they, or their friends haven’t heard of.
Certainly true to a certain extent, but word of mouth from people you have grown to trust has a way of changing that.
If I said I had a 1911 reworked by John Miller, there probably isnt a person here who knows that name, or would give it a second thought..
True, but thats not a name you run accross every day. 99.99% of 1911 owners have no idea who is.
I would kill for a John Miller built gun. I have never met the man, but judging by the reputations of some of his students he must be the man.
No question about it. I pity anybody who has to deal with us for a living.
There is certainly a lot of truth to this statement. That being said there is also a reason for it. For most guys buying a high end 1911 is a serious amount of money and also the realization of a dream. Since most of us only know of a limited amount of 1911 familiar gunsmiths it makes perfect sense to spend your money with somebody who has “Weathered the Storm” so to be speak and stood the test of time building reliable guns.
I'm sure their are a great many super 1911 gunsmiths out their who are "Un-Known" to the masses, but how are we suppose to know they aren't one of the crack pot's who do nothing more than install parts?
It's a sad fact that for every "Great" yet to be discovered 1911 gunsmith on the market there are at least three shit heads. How are we suppose to know the difference based off nothing more than some photos on a website?
Certainly true to a certain extent, but word of mouth from people you have grown to trust has a way of changing that.
I would kill for a John Miller built gun. I have never met the man, but judging by the reputations of some of his students he must be the man.
You are correct. I would never expect someone to buy a $2,500 based on pics. I will be taking one for the team and building one from the ground up. I will then shoot it, carry it and run it through training classes. I think once the weapons proves its reliability, accuracy and people can see the craftmanship for the dollar amount it will be an easy sell.
C4
If the gun has all good parts, is properly built and will run reliably through thick and thin with acceptable accuracy, a lot of folks probably won't bother with anything else. I'm of the "two is one, one is none" school for many things. For 3k I'd rather have two Seiko's than one Rolex.
If the gun has all good parts, is properly built and will run reliably through thick and thin with acceptable accuracy, a lot of folks probably won't bother with anything else. I'm of the "two is one, one is none" school for many things. For 3k I'd rather have two Seiko's than one Rolex.
I guess it kind of depends on what your definition of "good parts" are. My def. is that good parts are NOT MIM (which is what the Kimbers and Springfields are full of).
I also follow the two is one and one is none, but if the two weapons both haves subpar parts in them then you really only have one IMHO.
C4
davemcdonald
10-16-06, 19:00
I think it is an interesting idea and I hope it works out for you. I look forward to seeing how this project progresses. I feel that a semi-production 110% reliable shooter would eat up a larger portion of the market share but if you have a market in mind and plan to build to that market then you may have something. There is no reason for any of us to dissuade your project. We should all wait until your idea is brought to fruitation with a prototype and then judge it on its merits. That is just my opion others may vary.
Dave
I apologize in advance for my bluntness. It's just the way I am when it comes to firearms. :(
If this comes to fruition, I volunteer to purchase the prototype. I will wring it out and provide unadulterated feedback.
This guy is a long time veteran and has more work than he can handle just by word of mouth.
If this is the case, what reason is there to believe he will be able to pump out signature grade guns at rock bottom prices on such short notice?
In other words, custom is not automatically high-end and high-end is not automatically custom. It sounds to me like what you are actually proposing is 3 price levels, and resultant finish and accessory levels, of high-end 1911, but not actual custom work. What you are talking about is high-end production just like RRA, Wilson, Nighthawk, Brown, Baer, etc. My Ed Brown Special Forces came one way and one way only.
"Custom" is what Bob Rodgers, Chuck Rogers, Ned Christiansen, Ted Yost, Hilton Yam, etc. do. Some of those 'smiths do offer "packages", but the user can deviate from that package as they desire for a truly "custom" gun or start completely from scratch with their own wish list. As an example, I ordered a Yost 1* Enhanced but then made some changes particular to my purposes.
If you truly mean made to order custom guns, then all you become is a middle-man and broker for a customer that could in theory go straight to the 'smith and save themselves your fee. If you mean high-end production then you're going to be competing in a very crowded market.
Rob is correct. Thanks for saving me the trouble! :p
Its all about the Brand Recognition, and telling everyone I have a "Hilton-Rogers-Roger Yam-Ned" 1911!!!
You wont sell any of the high end 1911 people a pistol built by someone they, or their friends havent heard of.
Layfolk will not have heard of the smiths we consider to be rather high-profile. In my experience, the folks that care most about brand names are those that shop in the $2000 sweet spot. In particular, Les Baer owners feel especially compelled to boast about how tight their guns are.
Custom means two things in my book. The first one is that the item deviates from they stereotypical "norm." My second thought on the word custom deals in how the 1911 is fitted.
Custom means built to order, plain and simple. It is in no way an indicator of quality.
Meaning that the gunsmith spends 15 hours on body work alone (blending parts, removing scratches, polishing, etc, etc). Every part is fitted to that weapon (read no out of the box parts slapped together). To be honest, very few "big name" 1911's smith's do ANYTHING like this as they just don't have the time. The are generally doing some trigger work and some checkering and calling it a day. You are simply paying for the name and got almost NO custom fitting/blending/polishing done to the weapon.
You are off the mark here. High-end 1911s pretty much start at $4000 and up. In exchange, customers receive the detailing that consumers of $2000 guns always misguidedly claim to have. "Fit and finish" is thrown around a lot, and is an easy way to spot someone who doesn't know what to look for. My YoBo 1* is slightly outside of your target price range, yet I make no outlandish comments about the quality of the product. It is what it is, a reliable economy custom gun.
You are technically correct in that I will offer a package one way with nothing but the best of everything.
The best of everything? I appreciate the enthusiasm, but there is no standard.
You are correct. I would never expect someone to buy a $2,500 based on pics. I will be taking one for the team and building one from the ground up. I will then shoot it, carry it and run it through training classes. I think once the weapons proves its reliability, accuracy and people can see the craftmanship for the dollar amount it will be an easy sell.
You make it sound as if you are doing us a favor by testing your own product. Allow me to relieve you of that burden. That way, feedback on the pistol can be a bit more impartial. Besides, as a father with a thriving business, I don't see you shooting or training much anytime soon. :D
I guess it kind of depends on what your definition of "good parts" are. My def. is that good parts are NOT MIM (which is what the Kimbers and Springfields are full of).
I also follow the two is one and one is none, but if the two weapons both haves subpar parts in them then you really only have one IMHO.
C4
To me, good parts means forged frame/slide, bar stock/tool steel internals, one piece quality SS barrels etc. I have had outstanding service and reliability (+6k rds) from a Springfield TRP right out of the box. It was about 1100 bucks but it does have some mim parts in it. I'd have gladly paid a few hundred extra for better internals and a few less features/cosmetics.
If I said I had a 1911 reworked by John Miller, there probably isnt a person here who knows that name, or would give it a second thought.
Not only do I know who he is, but if you're willing to sell the gun keep me in mind! ;)
Steve_Morrison
10-17-06, 02:59
Did I hear someone say they had a John Miller pistol for sale? ;)
I apologize in advance for my bluntness. It's just the way I am when it comes to firearms. :(
If this comes to fruition, I volunteer to purchase the prototype. I will wring it out and provide unadulterated feedback.
If this is the case, what reason is there to believe he will be able to pump out signature grade guns at rock bottom prices on such short notice?
Rob is correct. Thanks for saving me the trouble! :p
Layfolk will not have heard of the smiths we consider to be rather high-profile. In my experience, the folks that care most about brand names are those that shop in the $2000 sweet spot. In particular, Les Baer owners feel especially compelled to boast about how tight their guns are.
Custom means built to order, plain and simple. It is in no way an indicator of quality.
You are off the mark here. High-end 1911s pretty much start at $4000 and up. In exchange, customers receive the detailing that consumers of $2000 guns always misguidedly claim to have. "Fit and finish" is thrown around a lot, and is an easy way to spot someone who doesn't know what to look for. My YoBo 1* is slightly outside of your target price range, yet I make no outlandish comments about the quality of the product. It is what it is, a reliable economy custom gun.
The best of everything? I appreciate the enthusiasm, but there is no standard.
You make it sound as if you are doing us a favor by testing your own product. Allow me to relieve you of that burden. That way, feedback on the pistol can be a bit more impartial. Besides, as a father with a thriving business, I don't see you shooting or training much anytime soon. :D
Thanks for the input Vinh. The 1911 smith I am dealing with is more eager than I to put this thing together. So I imagine that my guns will be first priority for him.
From looking the pics of his 1911's and reading his customers feedback on a couple 1911 forums, it is apparent to me that if he had a big "name" that he could get $4k for his 1911's.
The best of everything simply meant that you won't find any MIM parts. We will use some of the best parts in the business and then each one hand fitted.
My wife bought me a WC CQB several years ago. Was it a custom gun? Yes. Did I get to pick out the configuration of it? No. This is how my guns will be. They will be custom, but the consumer won't be able to cherry pick things. Either you will like it or your won't. Folks that don't can go wait in line for a 1911 smith to do it like they want (and wait 2 years).
When we finalize what the components are of this 1911 I will post them and if your still interested in the gun it is yours! I do however give good (unbiased) reviews on gear (just ask Dick S). ;)
C4
To me, good parts means forged frame/slide, bar stock/tool steel internals, one piece quality SS barrels etc. I have had outstanding service and reliability (+6k rds) from a Springfield TRP right out of the box. It was about 1100 bucks but it does have some mim parts in it. I'd have gladly paid a few hundred extra for better internals and a few less features/cosmetics.
The TRP is an excellent 1911 and will stock them in my shop. With that said, having it done with no MIM parts would put you in the $1,300-$1,500 range. If you had any trigger work, polishing, blending done you would be in the $2,500 range easily and wait 6 months (or more).
This is where I am going with my pistol (no MIM parts, polished, blended, fitted, high end barrel & sights) right out of the gate with no wait!
C4
I think it is an interesting idea and I hope it works out for you. I look forward to seeing how this project progresses. I feel that a semi-production 110% reliable shooter would eat up a larger portion of the market share but if you have a market in mind and plan to build to that market then you may have something. There is no reason for any of us to dissuade your project. We should all wait until your idea is brought to fruitation with a prototype and then judge it on its merits. That is just my opion others may vary.
Dave
Thanks Dave. The "agenda" is to make a pistol that competes with NH and WC (in the $2,200-$2,500 range), but uses better components and more blending/polishing/fitting than those companies offer. I want it be a stand out value and kind of show folks that you don't have to spend $4K to get a top notch, reliable fighting weapon.
C4
I am trying to do away with the 6 month wait for a custom weapon game that we all seem to get stuck with.
C4
For a true custom built-to-spec gun, 6 months is fast from a one-man shop. Options like checkering will kill that timeline fast. I think you are in the area of semi-custom. Shops like Novak's, Nighthawk, and EGW have several gunsmiths and can turn out quality work faster.
As a retailer, I would consider the after-sales customer support you would get, too. It could save you a lot of headaches later.
For a true custom built-to-spec gun, 6 months is fast from a one-man shop. Options like checkering will kill that timeline fast. I think you are in the area of semi-custom. Shops like Novak's, Nighthawk, and EGW have several gunsmiths and can turn out quality work faster.
As a retailer, I would consider the after-sales customer support you would get, too. It could save you a lot of headaches later.
There actually about 2-3 smiths that will be working on these guns. Each one specializes in a certain area.
Most 1911's manufacturers run this way. They pass off work (like checkering) to someone else as they either don't have the time or the skill to do it. Also, some designs (like dragon scales) are proprietary.
C4
Here is a good thread for many different reasons: http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125592
The author makes a good point that if you take a factory gun (like a NH) and then send it off for more work, NH will no longer warranty the weapon! I know for a fact that people have sent their weapons off to get work done and when the weapon came back, it didn't run. Then the owner is kind of screwed as he cannot go back to the manufacturer and has to deal with the smith that did the work.
The guns that we are looking into building will be fully supported (meaning that no one would be stuck with a gun that just doesn't run).
The author also made some good points about materials for slide and frame. We are looking at doing a SS Frame with a Carbon Slide and a bull barrel for starters.
This should be fun! :D
C4
Here is a good thread for many different reasons: http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125592
The author makes a good point that if you take a factory gun (like a NH) and then send it off for more work, NH will no longer warranty the weapon! I know for a fact that people have sent their weapons off to get work done and when the weapon came back, it didn't run. Then the owner is kind of screwed as he cannot go back to the manufacturer and has to deal with the smith that did the work.
The guns that we are looking into building will be fully supported (meaning that no one would be stuck with a gun that just doesn't run).
The author also made some good points about materials for slide and frame. We are looking at doing a SS Frame with a Carbon Slide and a bull barrel for starters.
This should be fun! :D
C4
Why on earth would he not just have Nighthawk do the work?
Why on earth would he not just have Nighthawk do the work?
Don't know for sure, but it would appear that he wanted a trigger that was lighter than they would do and NH's backlog (read wait time).
C4
Someone brought to my attention that I might have offended some WC, RRA or NH owners in this thread. Let me be the first to say that it wasn't my intention. I am a proud owner of a WC CQB that I shoot in every class I can. The weapon is very reliable and have nothing, but good things to say about it.
As most of you know, I now have a store front and will most likely stock both WC and NH as I think they are good 1911's with a strong following.
C4
I am the official Adco Custom 1911 whore, and here are my thoughts.
I think it is a poor decision. 1911 owners, from the new and inexperienced, to the veterans, and even the gunsmiths, are at least eclectic. Some finnicky. Some downright strange. One builder cannot make everyone happy, nor should he attempt to, for sanity's sake. You agree? Of course you do. Because you believe that you are focusing on a smaller portion of the spectrum. Limit the BS, right?
O.K. then, what's the hook? A great builder, that will remain nameless? Um, OK. And customer service superior to Springfield Custom? Sure. Better aesthetics than RRA, Nighthawk, etc.? Uh, huh. And marketing by word of mouth? Unless a new company has the backing and mouthpiece the likes of the 10-8 crew, I doubt it. And then what does that coverage cost? I mean 10-8 has done more for Nighthawk than I think NH has done for themselves. I wonder how much that costs? You are in with them better than I, perhaps you could find out.
I am fortunate enough to be able to call four of the best 1911 gunsmiths in America my friends. Each has a different style, and each stands out. That is why I pay them more than $4000 a job. It is worth it. For a basic go to gun with great performance, reliability, fit, finish, and support, my two PROs have been perfect fits. For a working gun, it is hard to beat. Anyway, in speaking to one of my aforementioned friends, he shared his thoughts of my personal RRA pistol that I sent for his perusal. He said that there were things he would do differently, but that there is no way he could build that good of a gun for such a low price. My friend has asked to remain anonymous and I hope you respect that as I do. If I told you his name, your jaw would drop. At any rate I am left to wonder who is this wonder 'smith that could do what a true master says he could not? A rhetorical question, but I think it bears thought.
I have headed up many of Adco's dealings with RRA and Ed Brown Pistols. I have looked into many others, Nighthawk included. Steve has handled all WC and Baers and several others. The fact is that the high end 1911 market isn't what internet forums make it out to be. The best built aren't the best sellers. Everybody is an expert, yet nobody knows a damn thing. I just don't see where your proposal fits.
A reputable gunsmith that builds guns to his specs whenever he feels like it, and offers them up for immediate sale can do well (can you say Morris?). But without a name what do you have? Would you spend Bentley money for a no name that looked darn nice? Bang Olufson money for a no name stereo that sounded good? Strider money for a no name blade? If your answer to these questions was "yes", would you expect the same long term reliability and customer service?
I wish you all the best, Grant. I sincerely do. I just hope you look at the big picture from every angle. I don't think the market is there. I don't see how a one-man start up can offer the type of customer service you are speaking of. The price-point/execution thing eludes me. If you have found a better mouse trap, then SWEET! I just don't see it. That said, you do have my support, and if you'd like me to look at the prototype, I'll gladly do so.
deadwood83
10-18-06, 20:52
Hmm just a random thought that came to mind while reading Damian's post; For the price range you're talking about why not stock some Dan Wessons? I have one and it is pretty much a 'budget' custom build from the plant (at least in my eyes.) It's no $3000 custom pistol but for a pistol in the $2,000 range it's a pretty good deal.
Just my thoughts, take em at face value.:)
Thanks Damian for your input. The gunsmith(s) that I am using does the 1911 thing because it is a love (not because he needs to feed his family). So that might be one of the reasons why he can do it much cheaper. I also think he wants to thumb his nose at all the big name boys and show them that they are not as good as they think and quite possibly over charge for the services.
We have already completed most of the parts list and priced everything. Parts for this weapon are $1,200-$1,300 and they are simply some the best names in the 1911 industry. So the question that has to be asked, is if high end parts cost around $1,200 and retail on most sem-custom 1911's runs around $2,500 and there seems to be very little blending, polishing and fitting, where is all money going? Into the dealers pocket?? You and I know that just isn't true! Things that make you go hmmmmm.
Trust me when I say, that I am not going to be stocking 25 of these things. The first 1911 has ALREADY been sold and I am not going to even be the buyer! After this person shoots it and and compares it against their other (more expensive 1911's) the word will get out and people will show an interest in the weapon. I mean, who wouldn't want a $4k pistol for a $2,500 price tag! Sign me up and no I could care less who's name is on the thing. If it looks better than other more expensive 1911's and is more accurate then I think they will do well (even in the super picky 1911 market).
The second 1911 coming off "the line" will be my own. I will send it to you for examination if you like.
C4
Hmm just a random thought that came to mind while reading Damian's post; For the price range you're talking about why not stock some Dan Wessons? I have one and it is pretty much a 'budget' custom build from the plant (at least in my eyes.) It's no $3000 custom pistol but for a pistol in the $2,000 range it's a pretty good deal.
Just my thoughts, take em at face value.:)
Good 1911 as well. I am really after making $4K pistols owners question why they paid so much for their 1911. ;)
C4
K.L. Davis
10-18-06, 22:48
Good 1911 as well. I am really after making $4K pistols owners question why they paid so much for their 1911. ;)
C4
Hell Grant, that's easy...
You paid $4,000.00 for a 1911 pistol! :eek:
There... all they have to do is read that ;)
I mean, who wouldn't want a $4k pistol for a $2,500 price tag!... I could care less who's name is on the thing.
C4
Ummmm...Yeah...I think you may have missed the point of a few different posts.
Your ability to offer these on a "no wait" basis hinges on this ending up being the best kept secret in 1911's.
If the guns run as well as you say they will, word will get out. And then demand will outpace the ability to deliver. Or price will creep up to keep the riff raff (i.e., poor schmucks like myself) out.
Hell Grant, that's easy...
You paid $4,000.00 for a 1911 pistol! :eek:
There... all they have to do is read that ;)
:D
C4
Ummmm...Yeah...I think you may have missed the point of a few different posts.
No, it isn't lost on me that people will CHOOSE to pay for a name. That is their choice. As Steve and I know, there are certain AR builders that charge $500 over what we would charge for the exact same parts! People seem to believe that buying an AR from that person is superior to what others can do. This just isn't true.
People that are hung up in needing to impress their friends with some name will not like my 1911. I have no problem with that. I also know for a fact that a lot of the "big name" 1911 have been going down and right and left. I fully understand that guns break, but that just proves my point that having a big name attached to a weapon doesn't gurantee anything.
What it comes down to is that there will be 2 pistols made. One is sold and the other is for me. If no one wants these things then that is just fine with me (as I got mine). I am however hoping that people might wake up and welcome a high end 1911 for a mid-level price!
C4
Your ability to offer these on a "no wait" basis hinges on this ending up being the best kept secret in 1911's.
If the guns run as well as you say they will, word will get out. And then demand will outpace the ability to deliver. Or price will creep up to keep the riff raff (i.e., poor schmucks like myself) out.
Possibly. I kind of think that after the first guy gets this weapon and posts a good review and shoots groups out of a ransom, that the word will get out VERY quickly. I think there are enough shooters out there (like me) that don't need a name attached to a 1911 to appreciate the quality.
We will most likely build a small number of these 1911's a year (if things go well with the first one). That number would be under 50 I think. Am I going to raise the prices on them as they become "known?" I don't play that game. Now if parts go up in price then we will of course have to raise prices.
C4
Possibly. I kind of think that after the first guy gets this weapon and posts a good review and shoots groups out of a ransom, that the word will get out VERY quickly. I think there are enough shooters out there (like me) that don't need a name attached to a 1911 to appreciate the quality.
We will most likely build a small number of these 1911's a year (if things go well with the first one). That number would be under 50 I think. Am I going to raise the prices on them as they become "known?" I don't play that game. Now if parts go up in price then we will of course have to raise prices.
C4
So, the first 50 get the "no wait" benefit, but then everyone after that goes into the next year's wait list. All the while more guys hear the good news and want to get in on the action. All I could suggest is if you end up doing this, get on the list now.
Good luck, I hope this works out for you.
So, the first 50 get the "no wait" benefit, but then everyone after that goes into the next year's wait list. All the while more guys hear the good news and want to get in on the action. All I could suggest is if you end up doing this, get on the list now.
Good luck, I hope this works out for you.
Basically yes. The main problem is going to be parts availability I think. So 1911's will be produced as parts are available.
Thanks for the feedback and I think it will go well and will be a lot of fun for me!
C4
BravoCompanyUSA
10-21-06, 14:42
For any business investment the formula is usually the same.
The elements break down into:
1. ROI (return on investment) also factoring in inventory turns for an annual return calculation.
2. ROI on product A vs. ROI on product B (i.e.: other products in inventory),
3. Current market conditions (supply and demand for specific variations of the product),
4. Product features and benefits,
5. Sales and marketing ability,
6. Additional levels of overhead,
7. And possibly more important the risk.
Nubmer 1 and 2 are very much related. Only you can analyze them, and I am sure that you already have.
Regarding #3, I am not an authority on the high end 1911 market, but if extended lead times are common in the market, it would lead me to believe the market is not yet saturated. Also, to fully subscribe to the idea that only known brand names will sell is to say that a new 1911 brand should never be introduced, and from now until eternity the only 1911s ever sold will be WC, SA, EB, NH, etc. Obviously that will not be the case. It may be very difficult to market against known names, but someone is always going to do it, and someone will be successful. That is the nature of a free market and entrepreneurialism (not sure if that is really a word?). The point being I would never not enter a market solely because other bigger companies are already in it. Keyword: Solely.
Numbers 4 and 5 are distinctly different issues, but work hand in hand. If your product offers distinct features and benefits at and over others in a similar price range, and your marketing ability can convey those benefits to the customer, then buyers will act. That is an absolute.
Number 6. As stated earlier by KLDavis, there are insurance issues to be sorted out with the manufacturing of firearms. This can be sorted out between you and the gunsmith. But addressing the liability is probably the biggest issue in this investment.
When I look at a new part number, project, or any investment, ultimately for me it boils down to risk (#7). And in the scenario you provided, (insurance issues aside) the risk seems to be zero. You have one sold, and you already want to put one in your gun safe. So you start small and only build a couple, put it on the shelf, get it in the hands of folks who can offer an objective review and opinion, and then wait. If you never sell another single 1911, you have lost nothing. Nothing. Take the 1911 off the shelf and put it into your personal gun safe. Anytime you can invest a net of nothing to make something is worth a shot (pun intended).
Thanks Paul. Since you own BCM, you know full and well the risk of bringing in a weapon to a somewhat saturated market and beating some larger companies at their own game. This is my goal as well. I am however going to do it on a MUCH smaller scale and carefully test the waters. If there is no interest then that is fine and I will ride off into the sun set with my one of a kind 1911. ;)
C4
I spoke with Grant in detail about this project yesterday.
He seems to be taking a rather realistic approach to this adventure in my opinion. Maybe he was a little naïve in the beginning but I think we have gotten through to him. He is not going to be building twenty guns and have them sitting on a shelf in his shop. They are going to be build one at a time while trying to keep just one on display and ready to ship. This seems rather realistic.
Grant basically wants his own 1911 (The G&R 1911). He has found a 1911 familiar gunsmith that he seems very comfortable doing business with. G&R is not trying to compete with any custom or semi-custom shop. Being a 1911 enthusiast he has always been interested in building one. Now with the help of a 1911 gunsmith friend he is getting his chance.
Personally I think he’s nuts to enter this market with all it’s associated headaches but who am I too put down somebody for having a dream? I still don’t think he completely understands what he’s getting into, but I wish him all the luck in the world.
Parts list is out! https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=19719#post19719
C4
Interesting thread and good luck Grant. Here are my comments FWIW. Being a NHC Dealer I have to agree with Steve (ADCO) If your in it for the money your $$$ will provide you a better ROI (Return of Investment) on the accessories. Going the do it yourself route, like you are thinking I'm sure is better money than the NHC or WC but folks spending the big bucks on the 1911 want a name.
On the other hand these are the things that keep us motivated and distinguish differences in dealers.
Keep those wheels turning
Oh Yea...I also went the Kimber route but found that there is a Dealer in my state that sells Kimbers for ~ 20.00 over cost. Obviously this is not for me so I get a woodie everytime the Kimber folks ask me "when you going to sign up and sell some of our Kimbers" So I give them the 20.00 profit story.
Interesting thread and good luck Grant. Here are my comments FWIW. Being a NHC Dealer I have to agree with Steve (ADCO) If your in it for the money your $$$ will provide you a better ROI (Return of Investment) on the accessories. Going the do it yourself route, like you are thinking I'm sure is better money than the NHC or WC but folks spending the big bucks on the 1911 want a name.
On the other hand these are the things that keep us motivated and distinguish differences in dealers.
Keep those wheels turning
Oh Yea...I also went the Kimber route but found that there is a Dealer in my state that sells Kimbers for ~ 20.00 over cost. Obviously this is not for me so I get a woodie everytime the Kimber folks ask me "when you going to sign up and sell some of our Kimbers" So I give them the 20.00 profit story.
Thanks Tom. I have looked into several 1911 makers dealer profits and it didn't interest me. I know know a lot of dealers that sell all brands of 1911's at near cost. Frustrating to say the least. I prefer to control things (quality, parts, cost) as best I can and building my own will let me do this.
C4
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.