View Full Version : Florida man shoots man attacking deputy
Eurodriver
11-14-16, 14:57
Well. We've discussed it here. Thoughts?
http://www.winknews.com/2016/11/14/police-activity-blocks-i-75-sb-at-exit-123/
Many say they would not get involved for fear of being shot by responding Le. Additionally it takes balls to unload lead near friendlies.
I'm not sure I could listen to a cop "cry out for help" while being attacked and not do something. You?
I'm not sure I could listen to a cop "cry out for help" while being attacked and not do something. You?
As a former 25 year LEO, NO I could not just stand there.
Since the article does not mention the suspect having a weapon, I think I just would have puled the suspect off of the deputy and helped the deputy restrain him. Now... If the suspect had a deadly weapon, all bets are off. Again, I was not there.
I just hope the dead person is not a "person of color" for the sake of the good Samaritan. I fear another witch hunt if it was...
Not a question. Get some.
BUT
homeslice better be one HELL of a good witness should I end up in Grand Jury
I had a case where I was in a hell of a big fight as a deputy and had already had the guy get my pistol out of my holster. Thank G-D the pistol went flying across the road. I asked the 3 men standing there at the scene of the accident to help me. I also put out a 10-33, which brought other deputies to my aid. When it was over and done with and the guy was in cuffs. My pants torn, my uniform shirt a rag in the middle of the street, I walked over and told all 3 they were under arrest for failure to aid an officer.
They all 3 were convicted but I don't remember how much jail time they got.
II walked over and told all 3 they were under arrest for failure to aid an officer.
They all 3 were convicted but I don't remember how much jail time they got.
Sorry but is BS, they are not paid to deal with that.
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Hard to say if I would get involved or not.
Problem is not knowing what the situation is. Who is the right and who isn't.
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Olivia Mancino .... enough said. ;)
Glad the officer is ok. According to the witnesses it seemed like a clean shot, hope FL makes sure the citizen that helped faces zero prosecution or civil suits.
Hard to say if I would get involved or not.
Problem is not knowing what the situation is. Who is the right and who isn't.
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I don't think that is an issue - you stop the assault against the officer, and then allow THE LAW to determine who was in the right or not. If a subject is using deadly force against an officer and the subject could escape without using deadly force then the situation isn't that difficult, is it?
If you want to make backhanded comments about 'who is right and who isn't' that is within your right, but it is kind of lame 'the cops are all oppressors' BS better siad on another forum.
Sorry but is BS, they are not paid to deal with that.
Well state law was very clear about it. My boss wanted them arrested to set an example, so I arrested them. The truth was I was in a strange place, happy that I wasn't dead but with a broken nose, 5 stitches above one eye, some broken ribs, I was in some pain. Boss said arrest them on the way to the hospital. Guess what I told them your under arrest for failure to aid an officer.
But I got to say I am no longer paid to chase criminals or terrorist, but if a cop was getting his ass kicked I would stop and help him.
Whiskey_Bravo
11-14-16, 16:57
Hard to say if I would get involved or not.
Problem is not knowing what the situation is. Who is the right and who isn't.
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WTF does that mean? You see a dude attacking an officer, and you want to know who is in the right and who isn't? Not sure if serious.
Well, until more details are known, we can only speculate. Guy could have been 6 5 and 330 pounds for all we know.
I'm all for helping someone get out of a jam. You never know, it might be you getting the shit beat of you someday.
Looks like the perp was armed. Beating a cop seems like a good way to get deaded.
I don't know Florida law, but in this state, Commission of a felony warrants justifiable homicide.
I say good shoot.
Sorry but is BS, they are not paid to deal with that.
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I wasn't there. Don't know jurisdiction but.....nobody really has an obligation to help the police like that. At least not in the US
WTF does that mean? You see a dude attacking an officer, and you want to know who is in the right and who isn't? Not sure if serious.
I probably would help too.
I wonder what would happen if you helped a person that as mugging someone wearing a fake uniform.
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Well state law was very clear about it. My boss wanted them arrested to set an example, so I arrested them. The truth was I was in a strange place, happy that I wasn't dead but with a broken nose, 5 stitches above one eye, some broken ribs, I was in some pain. Boss said arrest them on the way to the hospital. Guess what I told them your under arrest for failure to aid an officer.
But I got to say I am no longer paid to chase criminals or terrorist, but if a cop was getting his ass kicked I would stop and help him.
May I ask what state? I know GA has no such statutes. Being a bystander isn't a crime. Same with Good Samaritan laws. You can actually incur more liability/legal issues getting involved than not.
Not a challenge, just curious
Digital_Damage
11-14-16, 17:09
Hard to say if I would get involved or not.
Problem is not knowing what the situation is. Who is the right and who isn't.
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What dafaq?
If you want to make backhanded comments about 'who is right and who isn't' that is within your right, but it is kind of lame 'the cops are all oppressors' BS better siad on another forum.
Well I never said that ,you did.
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What dafaq?
so what is the issue?
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Well I never said that ,you did.
I'm sorry if I took it out of context, if I did. Please explain what you meant.
May I ask what state? I know GA has no such statutes. Being a bystander isn't a crime. Same with Good Samaritan laws. You can actually incur more liability/legal issues getting involved than not.
Not a challenge, just curious
There are some states that have those laws still on the books.
As others a ove have said, I'm jumping in with no questions asked until we're done. Even then my first question is "You good bro?"
Well state law was very clear about it. My boss wanted them arrested to set an example, so I arrested them.
What state is this? Personally it would depend on a lot of factors and variables.
I don't know Florida law, but in this state, Commission of a felony warrants justifiable homicide.
I say good shoot.
Florida is probably the best state in the nation for shit like this. Castle Law means no duty to retreat and I'm pretty sure being armed and attacking a LEO covers all the "forcible felony" qualifiers. Shooter likely won't even be arrested and will just have his information taken. When all is said and done, I think an evening of free pizza and a tour of Tootsie's Cabaret is in order.
sandsunsurf
11-14-16, 17:35
The article says the deputy told his supervisor the suspect was armed. Yes, I would get involved.
In reference to assisting, in Nevada you must assist an officer that orders you to help.
NRS 199.270 Refusal to make arrest or to aid officer. Every person who, after having been lawfully commanded by any magistrate to arrest another person, shall willfully neglect or refuse so to do, and every person who, after having been lawfully commanded to aid an officer in arresting any person, or in retaking any person who has escaped from lawful custody, or in executing any lawful process, shall willfully neglect or refuse to aid such officer shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. [1911 C&P § 96; RL § 6361; NCL § 10045]
With a uniformed officer there's a pretty fair presumption as to who's who--at least enough to lend a hand. With plainclothes officers, it can get kind of hairy for everyone.
Expect more rather than less of this stuff in the future...
There are some states that have those laws still on the books.
As others a ove have said, I'm jumping in with no questions asked until we're done. Even then my first question is "You good bro?"
Maybe but they would be hard to enforce given the current litigious society. Adultery is still on the books here and nobody's gone to jail for it.
Because if Person A attempts to help Officer X and Subject cripples or maims Person A; who foots the bill?
The city? State? We can try to hold Subject accountable but he has nothing. You can't really compel someone to incur risk.
If someone thought they might get over their head and ran, but at least called 911.....I could understand. Not what I would do, but understand.
The article says the deputy told his supervisor the suspect was armed. Yes, I would get involved.
In reference to assisting, in Nevada you must assist an officer that orders you to help.
NRS 199.270 Refusal to make arrest or to aid officer. Every person who, after having been lawfully commanded by any magistrate to arrest another person, shall willfully neglect or refuse so to do, and every person who, after having been lawfully commanded to aid an officer in arresting any person, or in retaking any person who has escaped from lawful custody, or in executing any lawful process, shall willfully neglect or refuse to aid such officer shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. [1911 C&P § 96; RL § 6361; NCL § 10045]
Nevada better have a corresponding duty to protect.
In DC they are on their own, of course I can't CCW in DC anyway so it doesn't really matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
PatrioticDisorder
11-14-16, 18:00
Damn this happened just up the road from me right near the border of Colier/Lee county.
Nevada better have a corresponding duty to protect.
In DC they are on their own, of course I can't CCW in DC anyway so it doesn't really matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
Statutorily, if you've been summoned to assist, you are granted the same privileges and exemptions as an officer regarding the use-of-force.
Still would not protect you from wanton disregard or negligence.
But, you know, what does a responsible citizen do? Worry about life or getting sued?
FlyingHunter
11-14-16, 18:35
I could not standby. I would feel a moral imperative to render any and all assistance necessary to stop the person attacking the officer. And do it ASAP. It can be considered at many different viewpoints and variables becoming increasingly complicated as we type it out on a keyboard but in real life...it's a simple as doing the right thing.
I could not standby. I would feel a moral imperative to render any and all assistance necessary to stop the person attacking the officer. And do it ASAP. It can be considered at many different viewpoints and variables becoming increasingly complicated as we type it out on a keyboard but in real life...it's a simple as doing the right thing.
This
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If able or otherwise asked, I assist.
I wouldn't hesitate to assist for a second. Maybe I'm just naive or stupid.
I have had a few people help me when I needed it. I stopped on the interstate once to help a trooper cuff a bad guy he had proned out in a U Turn at gun point. The siren was blaring as I walked up behind the trooper. I had my hands up and moved slowly until he saw me. I kept thinking I looked just like those shoot/don't shoot targets.
Well I never said that ,you did.
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Then explain your passive-aggressive comment.
Not sure who is right or wrong? Default to helping the police officer. What's your problem with that?
But, you know, what does a responsible citizen do? Worry about life or getting sued?
Still would depend upon too many variables to list. Short answer, probably gonna light somebody up.
And given the frequency that I am returning from the range with an actual MP5 it would probably be an interesting news day to say the least.
Say what you will about the Florida crazy scale, within that chaotic environment is a group of CCW guys who won't think twice about getting into it if they see a cop having a hard time on the side of the road. I honestly wonder if the "three shots" weren't a mozambique. The fact that at any given time and place somebody is likely carrying keeps a lot of other folks chilled out who otherwise might get a little cray.
In for a penny, in for a pound. That being said, if you statutorily compel someone to act on your behalf (especially an untrained, unqualified person), then the compelling authority must assume responsibility for any ensuing harm caused.
I wouldn't hesitate to assist for a second. Maybe I'm just naive or stupid.
There was a time in my younger days when I pulled shit constantly, I now realize that there were a few times things could have easily gone left. Ft. Lauderdale PD probably has a few veterans officers that remember my name. For about a year when I lived downtown I regularly got into it with the local dealers / bangers and even cops were surprised by some of the shit I pulled.
I remember one day one of the local district officers was having a hard time putting cuffs on one of the dealers and there was a crowd of opportunity standing around, myself and another local resident walked right through them and we each grabbed a foot and quickly brought the misguided young man to the ground. He tried to raise up on us and I probably breezed the cops head by 6 inches or less as I tagged the problem individual in question.
Don't want to mention the officers name, but he looked at me like "Did you really just knock that ****er out and swing right past my head in the process?!?" I knew I was good and wasn't gonna tag him but I'm not sure he knew that. I remember just keeping a straight face and saying "You got him?" and he was like "Yeah, I got him...but probably thinking some other stuff."
Late last Friday night I was standing in the dark watching from my bedroom window as an officer conducted a solo stop. Probably a hundred yards off but the rollers still lit up the room, and I felt compelled to get up and check, then keep eyes on in case the officer suddenly needed a hand I'd make tracks.
Guess that answers that question...not that I didn't also consider the somewhat absurd image of me running through three backyards and across a street in my skivvies to play Twister with a couple strangers.
Got back in bed after the officer was safely on his way.
Dark of night traffic stop without back-up has to be one of the more lonely things there is to do...
10 years ago - sure. In today's climate where my address would given out by the media, my house swarmed by the BLM/1%'ers, and my family targeted - I must say I'm not so sure.
Moreover, if I'm lawfully traveling between NC and VT, and see a MD, NJ, NY, or DC cop getting a beat down, there is absolutely ZERO chance that I'd use my lawfully secured weapons to intervene. Hell, I doubt that I'd draw attention to myself by calling 911 since I have ZERO confidence in the LEO's in those states to recognize the federal statutes that allow me to lawfully pass through their shitholes with my lawfully secured weapons.
Late last Friday night I was standing in the dark watching from my bedroom window as an officer conducted a solo stop. Probably a hundred yards off but the rollers still lit up the room, and I felt compelled to get up and check, then keep eyes on in case the officer suddenly needed a hand I'd make tracks.
Guess that answers that question...not that I didn't also consider the somewhat absurd image of me running through three backyards and across a street in my skivvies to play Twister with a couple strangers.
Got back in bed after the officer was safely on his way.
Dark of night traffic stop without back-up has to be one of the more lonely things there is to do...
Meh no need for my oversharing, but knowing at least one guy looked outvfor another guy all by himself after dark is chicken soup for the soul
NYPD, DC, MD for sure are on their own.
I had a flight with issues at JFK and ended up with my checked bag back in my possession. When I rechecked it I told them I had shotgun ammo in the bag. Next thing I knew I was surrounded by NYPD, and I thought I might be on the way to jail.
It sort of worked out when they found out I was retired from MAGAV in Israel. But they made the bag go through a TSA wipe down for explosives. The TSA shit stole all my shotgun slugs.
My conscience would not allow me to stand by and do nothing especially if the officer asked for my help.
gunrunner505
11-15-16, 06:26
Don't ever hesitate to help an officer in need. They do the same for us every day.
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Digital_Damage
11-15-16, 08:11
so what is the issue?
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Takes a special kind of stupid to question who is in the "right" when an in uniform officer is calling for help while being beaten by another person.
Whiskey_Bravo
11-15-16, 08:22
10 years ago - sure. In today's climate where my address would given out by the media, my house swarmed by the BLM/1%'ers, and my family targeted - I must say I'm not so sure.
Moreover, if I'm lawfully traveling between NC and VT, and see a MD, NJ, NY, or DC cop getting a beat down, there is absolutely ZERO chance that I'd use my lawfully secured weapons to intervene. Hell, I doubt that I'd draw attention to myself by calling 911 since I have ZERO confidence in the LEO's in those states to recognize the federal statutes that allow me to lawfully pass through their shitholes with my lawfully secured weapons.
all valid points
Florida is probably the best state in the nation for shit like this. Castle Law means no duty to retreat and I'm pretty sure being armed and attacking a LEO covers all the "forcible felony" qualifiers. Shooter likely won't even be arrested and will just have his information taken. When all is said and done, I think an evening of free pizza and a tour of Tootsie's Cabaret is in order.
http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/582b221d74257/Screenshot_2016-11-15-07-55-37.png?
Looks like Florida has very similar statute to here. I imagine that assaulting an officer while armed is a felony. Here just assault with a deadly weapon is a felony.
It won't leave grand jury, unless there was some pre meditated shit, which I doubt, but you just never know.
diving dave
11-15-16, 09:51
Before I retired, I had a good friend of mine get attacked by an absolute nutjob who had earlier almost beat an elderly man to death. My buddy was smacking him with a baton, but the guy tackled him and was pounding him. A big african american guy gets off a nearby bus, and rushed to his aid..Amazing thing was , he was on parole and not exactly a friend of the cops... He simply said he thought it was the right thing to do.We can across him several times in the months after that, we always went as far as we could to give him a "stay out of jail" free card..Even though he was doing some stupid shit we never forgot what he did.
Karma. It's a good thing.
...if you statutorily compel someone to act on your behalf (especially an untrained, unqualified person), then the compelling authority must assume responsibility for any ensuing harm caused.
Depends upon the statute and other applicable laws. A statute might read like this one from NC: "Private persons may assist law-enforcement officers in effecting arrests and preventing escapes from custody when requested to do so by the officer. When so requested, a private person has the same authority to effect an arrest or prevent escape from custody as the officer making the request. He does not incur civil or criminal liability for an invalid arrest unless he knows the arrest to be invalid. Nothing in this subsection constitutes justification for willful, malicious or criminally negligent conduct by such person which injures or endangers any person or property, nor shall it be construed to excuse or justify the use of unreasonable or excessive force."
Nowhere in there does it provide any protection for a private citizen against any litigation other than an invalid arrest claim. No general, good faith civil immunity at all. Per this law, you're on your own on the back end.
NC law does not require private citizens to assist police in making any arrest.
FL statutes include this: "A peace officer making a lawful arrest may command the aid of persons she or he deems necessary to make the arrest. A person commanded to aid shall render assistance as directed by the officer. A person commanded to aid a peace officer shall have the same authority to arrest as that peace officer and shall not be civilly liable for any reasonable conduct in rendering assistance to that officer."
FL law also requires private citizens to assist police in making arrests when commanded: "Whoever, being required in the name of the state by any officer of the Florida Highway Patrol, police officer, beverage enforcement agent, or watchman, neglects or refuses to assist him or her in the execution of his or her office in a criminal case, or in the preservation of the peace, or the apprehending or securing of any person for a breach of the peace, or in case of the rescue or escape of a person arrested upon civil process, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083."
Depends upon the statute and other applicable laws. A statute might read like this one from NC: "Private persons may assist law-enforcement officers in effecting arrests and preventing escapes from custody when requested to do so by the officer. When so requested, a private person has the same authority to effect an arrest or prevent escape from custody as the officer making the request. He does not incur civil or criminal liability for an invalid arrest unless he knows the arrest to be invalid. Nothing in this subsection constitutes justification for willful, malicious or criminally negligent conduct by such person which injures or endangers any person or property, nor shall it be construed to excuse or justify the use of unreasonable or excessive force."
Nowhere in there does it provide any protection for a private citizen against any litigation other than an invalid arrest claim. No general, good faith civil immunity at all. Per this law, you're on your own on the back end.
NC law does not require private citizens to assist police in making any arrest.
FL statutes include this: "A peace officer making a lawful arrest may command the aid of persons she or he deems necessary to make the arrest. A person commanded to aid shall render assistance as directed by the officer. A person commanded to aid a peace officer shall have the same authority to arrest as that peace officer and shall not be civilly liable for any reasonable conduct in rendering assistance to that officer."
FL law also requires private citizens to assist police in making arrests when commanded: "Whoever, being required in the name of the state by any officer of the Florida Highway Patrol, police officer, beverage enforcement agent, or watchman, neglects or refuses to assist him or her in the execution of his or her office in a criminal case, or in the preservation of the peace, or the apprehending or securing of any person for a breach of the peace, or in case of the rescue or escape of a person arrested upon civil process, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083."
Perfect examples. Florida compels and indemnifies, NC allows and doesn't.
Eurodriver
11-15-16, 17:43
What is all this grand jury talk?
This won't even reach a grand jury in FL.
What is all this grand jury talk?
This won't even reach a grand jury in FL.
Probably won't. But as a generality, if someone saves an officer, his shit better get the gold star treatment.
Perp happened to be black. No felonies but outstanding battery warrant. But I think the Trump election has BLM busy? Witnesses report the deputy was screaming for the bystander to shoot the perp.
Moreover, if I'm lawfully traveling between NC and VT, and see a MD, NJ, NY, or DC cop getting a beat down, there is absolutely ZERO chance that I'd use my lawfully secured weapons to intervene. Hell, I doubt that I'd draw attention to myself by calling 911 since I have ZERO confidence in the LEO's in those states to recognize the federal statutes that allow me to lawfully pass through their shitholes with my lawfully secured weapons.Excellent excellent point. Know where you are at and act accordingly.
SeriousStudent
11-15-16, 19:33
If I saw an officer being beaten by a bad guy here in Texas, I would kick the dude so hard, his head would split the uprights in Cowboy Stadium and score a field goal.
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