View Full Version : Importance of sights?
I have covered this topic before, but today I had some folks try to tell me that I couldn't shoot a good group at distance with no sights on the gun. So I decided to take my new G43 out for a spin. I removed the factory sights and shot a 6rd, 5.5 inch group (cold) @ 25yds.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Glock/G43_25yd_NoSights.jpg
The purpose of the thread is to dive into the importance level of sights. I have been taught that sights really don't matter as much as ones ability to manipulate the trigger to the rear while keeping the gun as still as possible. Most shooters however believe the opposite to be true spending a lot of time and money chasing the "perfect" sight picture.
What say you? Thoughts, opinions, please share.
C4
bigdaddy801
11-17-16, 14:30
I carry a Colt New Agent 1911 45ACP. Weapon has NO sights, we'll a "gutter" sight is how it's termed and I have no problem hitting what I aim at. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161117/0109a9235c1f580942422c20cc44f484.jpg
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I think they are important for reference. I don't believe I'm good enough to to what you did, Grant. However, I have found that taking too much time opens groups up significantly.
One of the definition of sights is this: a device that aids the eye in aiming or in finding the direction of an object.
So, while you were firing using the slide as a reference, in actuality you were using a sight.
BTW - its easier to put a big piece of tape over the rear sight than it is to remove the sights. You just use the edge of the slide. Old firearms instructor trick, first saw it with a revolver, using the top strap as reference.
I find it works best to cant the pistol so the sight line is topside.
I shoot J Frames quite often and the sights are crude. It is still possible to shoot reasonable groups at 25 yards.
In my opinion the order of importance of firearms manipulation:
1) trigger control
2) having the ability to work within your sight wobble
3) the ability to maintain a good shooting platform in all conditions and terrain
4) front sight
5) rear sight
Sights help a proficient shooter shoot more precisely.
Good feedback. If we think back to the old west, a lot of revolvers didn't have sights (or anything good) and they killed lots of people back then.
C4
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One of the things I like about Glock pistols is that when viewed from the rear, the slide looks like a large front sight.
Straight Shooter
11-17-16, 17:16
"Flash sight picture..front sight, PRESS". Ive shot by this for several decades now.
Shooting shotguns slugs through a regular barrel with only a front bead revealed to me that I could shoot accurately with rudimentary sights. Although I've not tried it, I think that I could shoot a handgun accurately using a pistol with front sight present but rear sight removed.
I'm in the process of switching over to an M4 carbine for home defense. My main complaint is that the rear sight(large aperture on carry handle)obstructs my view. Aiming has been a clumsy process, and I'm trying to figure out a better alternative. Since the weapon would only be used inside my house with the greatest distance possible being 25 yards(75 feet), I'm going to try merely looking over the front sight. For me the shotgun was super fast, and the pattern went where I looked. I'm going to miss this fact. Arthritis is the reason for switching.
noonesshowmonkey
11-17-16, 18:10
When you really get down to it, sights are a luxurious guide. When you have the time--ie cover/distance/initiative--you can use them to take the guesswork out of gunfighting.
Now, I train to pick up the sights, specifically the front sight post, before shooting. But, when you put a shot timer on my hip, am I seeing the target, the front sight, the whole top slide, a clear sight picture... or... what, exactly? Surely, I'm seeing a complex of those things, and in rapid fashion, but the real question is can I place shots where I want them.
This relates somewhat to point shooting, especially on a timer.
Trigger control is really 90% of the battle in handgunning. A good grip, with a steady press straight to the rear solves most of the problems.
teutonicpolymer
11-17-16, 18:12
You probably still had some visual reference and I am willing to bet you shoot more precisely and quickly with sights
Sights are important but I do think people can point shoot better than commonly thought
noonesshowmonkey
11-17-16, 18:12
You probably still had some visual reference and I am willing to bet you shoot more precisely and quickly with sights
Sights are important but I do think people can point shoot better than commonly thought
I would wager more precisely, but I wonder at more quickly.
teutonicpolymer
11-17-16, 18:14
I would wager more precisely, but I wonder at more quickly.
A poor visual reference like aligning the top flat of the slide should take longer
I don't doubt that one could point shoot a 5 yard target more quickly without sights
I shoot J Frames quite often and the sights are crude. It is still possible to shoot reasonable groups at 25 yards.
In my opinion the order of importance of firearms manipulation:
1) trigger control
2) having the ability to work within your sight wobble
3) the ability to maintain a good shooting platform in all conditions and terrain
4) front sight
5) rear sight
Sights help a proficient shooter shoot more precisely.
I think his is an accurate list of importance.
C4
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You probably still had some visual reference and I am willing to bet you shoot more precisely and quickly with sights
Sights are important but I do think people can point shoot better than commonly thought
Depends on distance and accuracy requirements. Nothing is faster than point shooting at 0-7yds. If I need to shoot a 1" group at 25yds, well then I need sights.
C4
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People would be wise to tape up their sights and work on their hand eye coordination (which is what we are talking about here). Folks looking to try his technique, 10yds is generally the max distance you can point shoot to. Give it a try and report how it goes.
C4
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I always use the sights, but for large targets up close, I'll shoot before I register them, then just track them for followups. I've used them to train, now bringing them up aligned on target is done automatically, at least enough for a B zone hit at 5, maybe 7 yards... haven't been out for a while.
Grant,
That's a helluva group. It looks like my 25 yard group with my G22. But I don't think it's fair for a person whose that good to claim that sights are "unimportant." That's like me saying being hydrated and not hungover are "unimportant" when doing my PT quals, just because I'm still in decent shape and can pass even after a night of overindulgence. Some guy recently drove the entire Nürburgring in a car, on two wheels; I doubt he'd say having all 4 tires on the car are "unimportant".
I believe the folks from the other discussion and you got off on the wrong foot when claims were made that sights are unimportant and "I can shoot 50/100 yards" without them. I agree other mechanics of shooting a pistol come into play and sights aren't everything. I struggle with flinching after a long day of shooting the G22 and understand no matter how well I align my sights and smoothly pull that trigger back, it won't matter if I **** it up and flinch.
For me, trigger pull falls below sight alignment and grip. If I grip the gun well enough, I can slap and be sloppy with the trigger and still get good consistent hits. I can't do the same with a improper grip despite having the best trigger pull.
Drifting Fate
11-17-16, 22:33
My experience is that the more one trains with the sights (or a visual index of some type), the less one needs them. That's one of the "old school" secrets behind the flash-sight picture - the flash is not an alignment, but a confirmation of what the shooter already knows after hours of practice.
Good training and practice work.
My guess, with all due respect, it's years of experience which allowed the OP to make the unsighted hits he did. A beginner without such a history wouldn't have been nearly as successful.
I, like most of us I'd venture, wish I could get to the range more often. But since I can't, dry fire is the best I can do. I'll frequently ID my target, draw from my holster several times with my eyes closed and open them once I'm on target to confirm my draw. It reinforces the muscle memory and proper grip to where the gun should naturally be pointed when drawn at a threat. I don't know that I'd go for 25 yards without sights (bravo Grant), but I think most of us could improvide using our slides as reference if we had a lot of experience with the gun.
Still...give me three dots any day.
What will build speed is trusting what you need to see and work the trigger. Of course practice will let you know what works, most people know what kind of reference they need whether it's with a good consistent index and/or sight reference. The trigger work is where the wheels come off.
Ref first sentence, that's one component of the equation.
I have covered this topic before, but today I had some folks try to tell me that I couldn't shoot a good group at distance with no sights on the gun. So I decided to take my new G43 out for a spin. I removed the factory sights and shot a 6rd, 5.5 inch group (cold) @ 25yds.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Glock/G43_25yd_NoSights.jpg
The purpose of the thread is to dive into the importance level of sights. I have been taught that sights really don't matter as much as ones ability to manipulate the trigger to the rear while keeping the gun as still as possible. Most shooters however believe the opposite to be true spending a lot of time and money chasing the "perfect" sight picture.
What say you? Thoughts, opinions, please share.
C4
I think their importance is on a spectrum...that spectrum being the experience and capability of the shooter.
My point, anecdotally...
I practice slowly "punching out" while following the front sight all the way to where it lines up with the rear. Over and over and over. I'm then able to draw at normal speed, and when I get the gun up fully, the sights are aligned. Muscle memory and technique, derived through thousands of reps, take over.
I have a feeling that we're you a novice shooter, your results would likely have been different.
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I, like most of us I'd venture, wish I could get to the range more often. But since I can't, dry fire is the best I can do. I'll frequently ID my target, draw from my holster several times with my eyes closed and open them once I'm on target to confirm my draw. It reinforces the muscle memory and proper grip to where the gun should naturally be pointed when drawn at a threat. I don't know that I'd go for 25 yards without sights (bravo Grant), but I think most of us could improvide using our slides as reference if we had a lot of experience with the gun.
Still...give me three dots any day.
Make no mistake, I am not point shooting at 25yds and achieving a 5.5" group LOL. I have learned (taught myself) how to visualize sights on a gun.
The point to my post is for people to realize that believing that sights play a major roll in ones ability to hit targets at distance. They do not. The focus needs to be on your trigger manipulation while keeping the pistol as still as possible.
C4
Make no mistake, I am not point shooting at 25yds and achieving a 5.5" group LOL. I have learned (taught myself) how to visualize sights on a gun.
The point to my post is for people to realize that believing that sights play a major roll in ones ability to hit targets at distance. They do not. The focus needs to be on your trigger manipulation while keeping the pistol as still as possible.
C4
In a practical sense I think you're 100% right. The mechanics of how you operate the pistol are far more important than what if any sights are on it. Class I took recently had drills focused on working with the natural mechanics of the body to achieve consistent hits. Culmination was focusing on where you want to hit, close eyes, drawing and firing one round, then open to see if you were still on target and where you hit. At the end of that section, we were all hitting the 5-6" CoM circle on the targets at 25yards pretty much 100%. Also made me realize I had been fighting with my body my entire shooting life instead of working with it. Improved my shooting significantly with one set of drills.
In a practical sense I think you're 100% right. The mechanics of how you operate the pistol are far more important than what if any sights are on it. Class I took recently had drills focused on working with the natural mechanics of the body to achieve consistent hits. Culmination was focusing on where you want to hit, close eyes, drawing and firing one round, then open to see if you were still on target and where you hit. At the end of that section, we were all hitting the 5-6" CoM circle on the targets at 25yards pretty much 100%. Also made me realize I had been fighting with my body my entire shooting life instead of working with it. Improved my shooting significantly with one set of drills.
Yep. Making sure your body is in the right orientation really does improve accuracy. Same is true with shooting AR's/Bolt guns at distance. The gun should rest "easy" on target naturally. If you are having to fight to keep the scope on target, your doing it wrong.
C4
Good thread. I've found the same in the past few years.
As long as the front sight is somewhat narrow and bright I'm good with them.
What makes thing difficult more than anything is a very heavy trigger. For example a stock gen 3 glock trigger isn't that good imho. But it's light and I shoot them well.
I can shoot a long DA trigger fine too if it's not too heavy. But anything with a real heavy or real poor quality trigger I'm not going to consistently shoot well.
I will add that I prefer a steel rear sight with a shape conducive to being used to run the slide against myself or edge should I need to. Those ramped Novak sights I see on so many 1911's are dumb.
travistheone
11-18-16, 12:46
under 10 yards i would agree that sights become irrelevant for "kill" shots. this assumes a knowledge of how your body and the gun interact.
for example when shooting skeet or trap I never acquire a sight picture. the gun is locked into your body and there is a repeatable point of aim in relation to your body position.
same thing can be achieved with a pistol if accuracy standards are relatively low.
besides, if you are shooting from retention- sights are literally irrelevant.
ramairthree
11-18-16, 13:28
The problem is some dipshit will read this and think no sights/point shooting are the way to go,
Or really good shooters that can do this start trying to get knuckle heads off the street doing this from scratch.
My take home lesson is,
This confirms that a proficient shooter that has mastered the basics and is familiar with his weapon can shoot pretty good even without his sights.
Just like you can still shoot one handed, weak hand only, etc.
But starting off just shooting one or weak handed is not the way to go.
other than maybe the occasional mercenary or cop, there's almost no need of better accuracy than 10" at 10 yds, cause that's all anyone can consistently. deliver (with a handgun) while being shot-at. Anything else is for matches or hunting or self-delusion. Most will find that most of their shots miss the man entirely at 10 yds, and will likewise miss the chest at 5 yds. A great many people seem to find that really hard to accept, but it's the fact of the situation. No, you wont shoot in a fight like you do in practice. You wont have hearing protection and yes, the blast and being shot-at WILL make you flinch.
Really good thread. The Bill Rogers shooting course was a very humbling experience for me. A LOT of flash shooting/point shooting.
It took me a fear years to realize 25 yards is not that far away. It was explained to me by a salt years back that 25 yards is "football" range. If you can hit a guy with a football, then shooting him should be easy.
I think one of the best drills was where they taped off our sights. No sights. And do straight point extension shooting. Maybe not super PPC accuracy but definitely minute of vital organ. The little heartbeat/figure 8 wobble is always there but if you just point and click.....you hit. If your fundamentals are down, you hit.
All that said, I personally am not really into RMRs and actually like blacked out rear sights with a good HD front. Once I had refined the basics and completed that course, normal qual shooting felt almost like cheating.
Just my personal experiences/training thoughts. Honestly, most Police gunfights will look sloppy and frantic because the average contact is 3 yds. i.e. Vehicle stops, Domestics, etc. If you got distance, cover and time/urgency of necessitation....you can easily plug someone if you know your 100 and 50 yd prone hold. I know with 230 +Ps and my Glock...I aim at the neck to get a good chest hit.
That's also why rear sights, to me, should be totally blacked out. Too distracting at night. And IME most OIS happened at night.
You don't want to be all Tackleberry but when you are scared you fall back on your well earned, hard won training.
No snake oil, just doing the work.
My two cents.
ps. not a caliber war, but I really like tge flatness of .357 Sig. Some 9mms replicate it but out of my 31 itvwas straight on bang at steel at 100 and 50. I wish, silly as it sounds, Trijicon made skinnier HD sights. My 31 was my BOB/car gun when holster was blocked by seatbelt, radio system, my big ass and it does well on windows. No doubt it would get me to my AR15. But if I were to manage a 50 yard target, that is what I would like.
Just me, though. If any POST/NRA cert instructors have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.
I bedn plinking since I was a kid and professionally policing since I was a punk 22 yo but I have learned there is always more to learn and every dirty trick helps.
yeah, well try that football throwing while being shot-at and see what you still think! and have somebody blasting rds right beside you, to simulate your blasts in your ears.
I was taught this lesson early in my shooting days at an NRA handgun instructors class. I was amazed how accurate I was without the sights inside 10 yards. Since that class I don't use the sights up close anymore and still hit what I aim at. from about 10-20 yards I get a quick front sight picture, and beyond 20 yards I need the front and rear sights.
Maybe if I had the money to shoot more I could improve on this, but for my skill level this is what works for me.
yeah, well try that football throwing while being shot-at and see what you still think! and have somebody blasting rds right beside you, to simulate your blasts in your ears.
I think you misread something or misinterpreted it. When it's on, and if you've trained, being shot and and rounds going off are the least of your worries. They can shoot at me (and have) but will they hit me?
That's the only issue. Tunnel Vision and auditory exclusion are very real. Let me explain once more so you can track what I am sayinng
An experienced, POST instructor who actually policed stated to us how range works for us. For most officers, varying in skill level, 25 yds can seem daunting. It was explained that you could toss a football that far and an adult person could catch it. Relatively simple. With a handgun if basic fundamentals have been practiced and honed, point shooting reliably at aforementioned distance is attainable.
Not enthused with the macho vibes, but I could just be reading into it. I hope I am not.
Went to a class where they taped over the sights not so much to show sights are not important but secondary to trigger control. Most students were holding groups inside a ipsc type target at 25 yards and the instructor was at fifty yards.
Another example while at a course run by the army marksmanship unit ( talk about people who can shoot!)
They had an ace shooter get in position at 200 yard sitting. After getting position just right they covered his sights and he shot ten rounds at 200 yards and he still shot in the 90's out of 100.
Really good thread. The Bill Rogers shooting course was a very humbling experience for me. A LOT of flash shooting/point shooting.
It took me a fear years to realize 25 yards is not that far away. It was explained to me by a salt years back that 25 yards is "football" range. If you can hit a guy with a football, then shooting him should be easy.
I think one of the best drills was where they taped off our sights. No sights. And do straight point extension shooting. Maybe not super PPC accuracy but definitely minute of vital organ. The little heartbeat/figure 8 wobble is always there but if you just point and click.....you hit. If your fundamentals are down, you hit.
All that said, I personally am not really into RMRs and actually like blacked out rear sights with a good HD front. Once I had refined the basics and completed that course, normal qual shooting felt almost like cheating.
Just my personal experiences/training thoughts. Honestly, most Police gunfights will look sloppy and frantic because the average contact is 3 yds. i.e. Vehicle stops, Domestics, etc. If you got distance, cover and time/urgency of necessitation....you can easily plug someone if you know your 100 and 50 yd prone hold. I know with 230 +Ps and my Glock...I aim at the neck to get a good chest hit.
That's also why rear sights, to me, should be totally blacked out. Too distracting at night. And IME most OIS happened at night.
You don't want to be all Tackleberry but when you are scared you fall back on your well earned, hard won training.
No snake oil, just doing the work.
My two cents.
ps. not a caliber war, but I really like tge flatness of .357 Sig. Some 9mms replicate it but out of my 31 itvwas straight on bang at steel at 100 and 50. I wish, silly as it sounds, Trijicon made skinnier HD sights. My 31 was my BOB/car gun when holster was blocked by seatbelt, radio system, my big ass and it does well on windows. No doubt it would get me to my AR15. But if I were to manage a 50 yard target, that is what I would like.
Just me, though. If any POST/NRA cert instructors have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.
I bedn plinking since I was a kid and professionally policing since I was a punk 22 yo but I have learned there is always more to learn and every dirty trick helps.
So you and a couple of others have mentioned taping off or blacking out the rear sight. I understand that concept, and am wondering if in your opinion it would be just as beneficial to completely remove any rear sight? Almost like a single action army with the blade front and just a tiny groove notched in the back?
Ive done some cowboy shooting, and after I get the gun up and the first target sorted out, it's almost like I just instinctively pick up the others by looking over the gun. But it's different with modern style pistols. I have to pick up the sights. I wonder if my brain maybe does that simply because the back sight is there?
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So you and a couple of others have mentioned taping off or blacking out the rear sight. I understand that concept, and am wondering if in your opinion it would be just as beneficial to completely remove any rear sight? Almost like a single action army with the blade front and just a tiny groove notched in the back?
Ive done some cowboy shooting, and after I get the gun up and the first target sorted out, it's almost like I just instinctively pick up the others by looking over the gun. But it's different with modern style pistols. I have to pick up the sights. I wonder if my brain maybe does that simply because the back sight is there?
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For me, I like a good U notch blackout rear because I may need to make more precise shots at 50+ yds and in. I wouldn't want to do away with it. I just dont want it busy or glowing. With a Glock, you.have a consistent if spongy trigger, at least stock.
In some cases, you only have time for flash/point shooting. Others, you have the time so take it. Homeboy can toss bullets all day but he is relying on luck. Fall back on the hard earned fundamentals and you can prone and front sight, front sight, front sight squeeeeeeeeze the trigger. Only hits count.
A handgun is really a poor weapon in a world of rifles and if guns are drawn and triggers pulled; you may well do good, do as trained, and all that and still get injured and/or die. Aside from getting the stone cold basics, you have skill and control.
The aggressor may be panicking or not fully, mentally committed. But that is mindset and a far different, if symbiotic, issue.
Personally, I do not want to totally forego anything aiding accuracy if there is a pause and a chance to implement it.
JMHO
For me, I like a good U notch blackout rear because I may need to make more precise shots at 50+ yds and in. I wouldn't want to do away with it. I just dont want it busy or glowing. With a Glock, you.have a consistent if spongy trigger, at least stock.
In some cases, you only have time for flash/point shooting. Others, you have the time so take it. Homeboy can toss bullets all day but he is relying on luck. Fall back on the hard earned fundamentals and you can prone and front sight, front sight, front sight squeeeeeeeeze the trigger. Only hits count.
A handgun is really a poor weapon in a world of rifles and if guns are drawn and triggers pulled; you may well do good, do as trained, and all that and still get injured and/or die. Aside from getting the stone cold basics, you have skill and control.
The aggressor may be panicking or not fully, mentally committed. But that is mindset and a far different, if symbiotic, issue.
Personally, I do not want to totally forego anything aiding accuracy if there is a pause and a chance to implement it.
JMHO
Yeah, all good points and I suppose in your line of work you have to try as best you can to account for every possible scenario. Now that you mention it, just today a Deputy USM had it go just as you described...everybody a loser.
I think I might just sharpie out the dots on the M&P and see how it goes.
Thanks for the insight, FF.
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MountainRaven
11-18-16, 23:21
Yeah, all good points and I suppose in your line of work you have to try as best you can to account for every possible scenario. Now that you mention it, just today a Deputy USM had it go just as you described...everybody a loser.
I think I might just sharpie out the dots on the M&P and see how it goes.
Thanks for the insight, FF.
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Are you doing that to try out a blacked out rear sight or because you think it's analogous to taping off your sights?
ColtSeavers
11-19-16, 01:08
Eagerly awaiting the Jon Woo sideways hold tests and conversation.
Are you doing that to try out a blacked out rear sight or because you think it's analogous to taping off your sights?
Blacked out
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other than maybe the occasional mercenary or cop, there's almost no need of better accuracy than 10" at 10 yds, cause that's all anyone can consistently. deliver (with a handgun) while being shot-at. Anything else is for matches or hunting or self-delusion. Most will find that most of their shots miss the man entirely at 10 yds, and will likewise miss the chest at 5 yds. A great many people seem to find that really hard to accept, but it's the fact of the situation. No, you wont shoot in a fight like you do in practice. You wont have hearing protection and yes, the blast and being shot-at WILL make you flinch.
If someone who shoots 5" groups at 25 yards is only going to shoot 10" groups at 10 yards in a gun fight since that's all anyone can do consistently (Is there a source for this measurement?), what do you think is going to happen to the person who can only shoot 10" groups at 10 yards? Is it your theory that everyone loses skill under stress and then lands at the same level of performance regardless of their stress free abilities or stress inoculation?
Grant, I suppose you've sort of answered this question in the affirmative already, but do you think your ability to shoot so well without sights might be the result of learning what feels right after countless hours feeling what it's like to have a properly aligned pistol in your hand with the sights aligned?
the same thing will happen to him that happens to anyone else. He'll flinch and miss a lot. I never claimed anything anything about being able to shoot "well" without sights. I want a flash confirmation of my front sight for anything tougher than a chest hit at 5 yds. Those who are super fast on the draw may well not have to fire at all, and misses have changed a lot of minds, too. Most attacks are not made with a gun. I've pointed a gun at men 6x in my life and they all froze in their tracks. Skill can also mean repeat hits twice as fast as the average guy, allowing one miss every other shot, for the same time span, and still getting the hit.
people who have not practiced until they can hit the chest 5-6x per second, at 5 yds, are just hoping and praying, that's all. Slowfire does not teach you how to be fast. Practicing your bowling skills wont do diddly for you in a game of tennis.
Hmmm.....interesting. I've drawn down on plenty of folks in my career and most actually drop their shit and run. Or fight.
To their credit (I guess) most are high on something.
Speed is lesser to smoothness.
I dunno your background or whatever but you're making some kinda odd claims. It's, frankly, kinda Yeagery.
5-6 times per second?
I dunno......
MountainRaven
11-19-16, 16:04
the same thing will happen to him that happens to anyone else. He'll flinch and miss a lot. I never claimed anything anything about being able to shoot "well" without sights. I want a flash confirmation of my front sight for anything tougher than a chest hit at 5 yds. Those who are super fast on the draw may well not have to fire at all, and misses have changed a lot of minds, too. Most attacks are not made with a gun. I've pointed a gun at men 6x in my life and they all froze in their tracks. Skill can also mean repeat hits twice as fast as the average guy, allowing one miss every other shot, for the same time span, and still getting the hit.
people who have not practiced until they can hit the chest 5-6x per second, at 5 yds, are just hoping and praying, that's all. Slowfire does not teach you how to be fast. Practicing your bowling skills wont do diddly for you in a game of tennis.
Howdy,
This is why my duty gun is a Beretta 93R. Anyone who isn't carrying that or a Glock 18C is frankly working for an agency that is way behind the curve.
Paul
Hmmm.....interesting. I've drawn down on plenty of folks in my career and most actually drop their shit and run. Or fight.
To their credit (I guess) most are high on something.
Speed is lesser to smoothness.
I dunno your background or whatever but you're making some kinda odd claims. It's, frankly, kinda Stenguny.
5-6 times per second?
I dunno......
the same thing will happen to him that happens to anyone else. He'll flinch and miss a lot. I never claimed anything anything about being able to shoot "well" without sights. I want a flash confirmation of my front sight for anything tougher than a chest hit at 5 yds. Those who are super fast on the draw may well not have to fire at all, and misses have changed a lot of minds, too. Most attacks are not made with a gun. I've pointed a gun at men 6x in my life and they all froze in their tracks. Skill can also mean repeat hits twice as fast as the average guy, allowing one miss every other shot, for the same time span, and still getting the hit.
people who have not practiced until they can hit the chest 5-6x per second, at 5 yds, are just hoping and praying, that's all. Slowfire does not teach you how to be fast. Practicing your bowling skills wont do diddly for you in a game of tennis.
Can you enlighten us as to your background in the subject? Training? Have you been in, and seen others behavior first hand during a gunfight?
The definitive nature of your claims begs for some context please.
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I"ve ccw'd for 20 years, trained dozens of people ran many matches. Quite a few of my trainees have had to draw, a couple fired warning shots over some heads. None have had to actually hit anyone with a bullet. The numbers come from several sources. NRA's mag, (life member since the late 70's) Cirillo's gunfighting book, competing in 2 world and 3 IPSC nationals, talking with many guys there. I've spent 1000's of dollars talking to them on long distance phone, many letters from Jeff cooper, FBI's UCR stats and DOJ's annual crime survey.
Go try an el presidente sometime without ear protection, in bad light, and have the targets move, with somebody shooting right past your head. See how "well" your score compares to your normal runs. :-)
Okay then.[emoji52]
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You lost me at warning shots.
ETA FWIW I remember being a youth and shooting outdoors sans earpro. It wasnt comfortable but I didnt care. Just how people rolled.
I did wince greatly ,and accredit some of my tinnitus, to a shotgun being fired indoors (not by me) and while painful, it didn't make me unable to perform.
I'm not saying you're FOS, but I'm not not saying it either.
Grant, I suppose you've sort of answered this question in the affirmative already, but do you think your ability to shoot so well without sights might be the result of learning what feels right after countless hours feeling what it's like to have a properly aligned pistol in your hand with the sights aligned?
I know when I have made a bad trigger press (if that is what you are asking). Honestly, I have shot with taped sights a lot over the years as both Hackathorn and Vickers use it as part of their training.
C4
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Square range VS real world. DELTA figured out that if you can shoot 2.5" group on the square range, that it will double when bullets fly both ways. It gets even worse in the dark.
So, if you shoot a 8-10" group at 10yds (with no pressure), you will most likely miss your target at that distance in a real fight. This is why it is always wise to mix some 25yd bullseye (using the NRA B8 targets) into your training.
C4
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I"ve ccw'd for 20 years, trained dozens of people ran many matches. Quite a few of my trainees have had to draw, a couple fired warning shots over some heads. None have had to actually hit anyone with a bullet. The numbers come from several sources. NRA's mag, (life member since the late 70's) Cirillo's gunfighting book, competing in 2 world and 3 IPSC nationals, talking with many guys there. I've spent 1000's of dollars talking to them on long distance phone, many letters from Jeff cooper, FBI's UCR stats and DOJ's annual crime survey.
Go try an el presidente sometime without ear protection, in bad light, and have the targets move, with somebody shooting right past your head. See how "well" your score compares to your normal runs. :-)
What are your training credentials?
Do you work in a gun store?
I know when I have made a bad trigger press (if that is what you are asking). Honestly, I have shot with taped sights a lot over the years as both Hackathorn and Vickers use it as part of their training.
C4
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Grant, I guess what I was trying to say is that it seems like if you shoot a lot over a pretty long period of time aligning your sights you'll also develop a feel for and a natural ability get a good grip at the draw and bring the gun out to target and basically have the sights aligned before even looking at them. In other words, just being able to feel that the pistol is aligned because that's the way it feels when you align the sites. So for example, do you think that a new shooter might have great trigger control but who hasn't the high number of repetitions to develop a feel for the pistol when the sights are aligned, would be able to perform even nearly as well?
Also, thanks for the line about performance in a gun fight. I thought I had read that from Larry Vickers at some point and it just makes sense, if you suck in ideal circumstance you're just going to suck worse so it makes sense to try to get as good as possible. Cops and mercenaries. LOL.
Grant, I guess what I was trying to say is that it seems like if you shoot a lot over a pretty long period of time aligning your sights you'll also develop a feel for and a natural ability get a good grip at the draw and bring the gun out to target and basically have the sights aligned before even looking at them. In other words, just being able to feel that the pistol is aligned because that's the way it feels when you align the sites. So for example, do you think that a new shooter might have great trigger control but who hasn't the high number of repetitions to develop a feel for the pistol when the sights are aligned, would be able to perform even nearly as well?
Also, thanks for the line about performance in a gun fight. I thought I had read that from Larry Vickers at some point and it just makes sense, if you suck in ideal circumstance you're just going to suck worse so it makes sense to try to get as good as possible. Cops and mercenaries. LOL.
Countless reps does give a shooter consistency (that is for sure). As the owner of an indoor range, I get to watch the general public shoot. Rarely and I mean RARELY, do people push targets past 10yds! Here is a little secret to shooting faster. Shoot at distance! Why? Because if you shoot at 100yds, 50yds, 25yds (like I do) the target appears HUGE at say 10yds and in. So your confidence level will naturally improve (and so will your speed). Truth is, I have never worked on my draw stroke speed (came naturally with lots of consistent, slow reps). Last time I checked with a shot timer I was pushing 1.2 second draws from concealment with A zone hits at 15yds.
C4
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Howdy,
This is why my duty gun is a Beretta 93R. Anyone who isn't carrying that or a Glock 18C is frankly working for an agency that is way behind the curve.
Paul
Gawd damn, this guy stole my thunder. Well played!
Countless reps does give a shooter consistency (that is for sure). As the owner of an indoor range, I get to watch the general public shoot. Rarely and I mean RARELY, do people push targets past 10yds! Here is a little secret to shooting faster. Shoot at distance! Why? Because if you shoot at 100yds, 50yds, 25yds (like I do) the target appears HUGE at say 10yds and in. So your confidence level will naturally improve (and so will your speed). Truth is, I have never worked on my draw stroke speed (came naturally with lots of consistent, slow reps). Last time I checked with a shot timer I was pushing 1.2 second draws from concealment with A zone hits at 15yds.
C4
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I've always done this with archery, but just started about a year ago with pistol. After spending time at 25yd, running drills at 10 makes you realize 1, you should have strated a long time ago, 2 it's easier than your brain let you realize, and 3, you can get by with a flash sight picture (assuming good fudamentals).
As for being a waste of time, what about headshots, what if your not being shot at? There's plenty of examples of people making good hits at longer distances. It's not luck most of the time.
Really good thread. The Bill Rogers shooting course was a very humbling experience for me. A LOT of flash shooting/point shooting.
Homie, you went to Rogers? I was also humbled, lost for the first couple days. Wanna go back and do it again?
TF82 posted: it seems like if you shoot a lot over a pretty long period of time aligning your sights you'll also develop a feel for and a natural ability get a good grip at the draw and bring the gun out to target and basically have the sights aligned before even looking at them. In other words, just being able to feel that the pistol is aligned because that's the way it feels when you align the sites.
A lot of folks are able to do this consistently and get good hits as long as they are able to shoot from the body orientation they have practiced.
The train begins to run off the track when the threat is off to your left and you have one foot on the street and the other up on the curb.
If you haven't practiced to be able to orient your head, shoulders, arms and wrists in that position you won't be nearly as fast or accurate. (Didn't need to point that out, common sense)
That is why you will see folks, including me, doing things like stepping up and stopping with one foot planted on a cinder block during their draw stroke. Doing it alternating feet on the cinder block, then closing eyes and checking NPOA (which is what we are really talking about) at completion of the stroke. Another thing I do is set a target, put the timer on delay and walk diagonally across the range, timer buzzes, find the target with your eyes, them close them and square the torso to the target as you draw, keeping your feet oriented on the diagonal - open your eyes and check stance/npoa.
What you are doing is developing stance directed muscle memory that allows you to achieve a rough NPOA on the target - at close range rough may be good enough - what we call point shooting - at longer ranges it gets you there quick enough to quickly achieve a front sight reference.
You can achieve a lot without firing too much ammo, much in the same way a martial artist does katas.
JMO
Homie, you went to Rogers? I was also humbled, lost for the first couple days. Wanna go back and do it again?
Actually, yeah. I do.
Those first two days make you feel clumsy and stupid. Day 1 Morning 1 everybody is a badass body dropping Doc Holiday with the smack talking.
Day 2 Lunchish, everybody is soooooo brokedick all like "What have I gotten myself into?!"
But it was so rewarding. And people do fail who would otherwise be known as "good shooters"
noonesshowmonkey
11-20-16, 13:10
Square range VS real world. DELTA figured out that if you can shoot 2.5" group on the square range, that it will double when bullets fly both ways. It gets even worse in the dark.
This is why bringing a stack of 3x5 notecards and some masking tape to the range is good shit. If you aim small, you miss small. Some dude said that once, I think. ; )
Regardless, if you can keep a full magazine on a 3x5 notecard at 25 yards, the next time you shoot at 7-10, you'll be able to hammer those shots into that same card with a shrug.
Last time I checked with a shot timer I was pushing 1.2 second draws from concealment with A zone hits at 15yds.
That is moving right along. Depending on cover garment, that is about the floor for my drawstroke, and I am pretty fast compared to most folks I train with.
Covering your sights is a great training tool to move away from a focus on sight picture and instead shift focus to your body's alignment relative to the shot, muscle recruitment, grip, trigger press, etc. We are visual creatures, and visual stimulus will neurologically trump most other forms of sensory input, when available. Taping the sights / removing them changes the game.
All that this thread has demonstrated is that fundamentals are what make good shooters. Good grip, clean straight to the rear trigger press, strong stance, clear sight picture, natural point of aim, fighting out of your centerline, etc.
This is why bringing a stack of 3x5 notecards and some masking tape to the range is good shit. If you aim small, you miss small. Some dude said that once, I think. ; )
Regardless, if you can keep a full magazine on a 3x5 notecard at 25 yards, the next time you shoot at 7-10, you'll be able to hammer those shots into that same card with a shrug.
That is moving right along. Depending on cover garment, that is about the floor for my drawstroke, and I am pretty fast compared to most folks I train with.
Covering your sights is a great training tool to move away from a focus on sight picture and instead shift focus to your body's alignment relative to the shot, muscle recruitment, grip, trigger press, etc. We are visual creatures, and visual stimulus will neurologically trump most other forms of sensory input, when available. Taping the sights / removing them changes the game.
All that this thread has demonstrated is that fundamentals are what make good shooters. Good grip, clean straight to the rear trigger press, strong stance, clear sight picture, natural point of aim, fighting out of your centerline, etc.
I agree with these two statements. Drills conducted at distance that force you to develop and maintain the fundamentals make you much more proficient when shooting at speed at closer distances.
Dollylamma
11-20-16, 19:08
Grant, I know you shoot with both eyes open. Is there a distance that you close an eye?
Grant,
Does any of this affect you selection in sights? What do you prefer or recommend?
Leatham has a pretty decent video on this topic (albeit it has a really click baity, misleading title along the lines of "don't no one need no sights"). I agree with his sentiment as well as what others have said that it comes down to fundamentals. Creating a rock solid grip while engaging the trigger is arguably the bigger part of the battle. Fundamentals are the key.
What I've found in my experiences is I don't not aim anymore, I just don't notice myself aiming, just in the same way as I dont notice myself counting off each part of the drawstroke.
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gunnerblue
11-21-16, 00:08
Deleted
Grant, I know you shoot with both eyes open. Is there a distance that you close an eye?
I tend to partially close one eye when I shoot beyond 25yds. Sometimes just to get alignment where I want and then relax it. Eye dominance/preference when shooting is so shooter specific that I don't know that there is a right or wrong answer. All I do know is that it takes a lot of muscle control to keep one eye open and one eye closed.
C4
Grant,
Does any of this affect you selection in sights? What do you prefer or recommend?
Sights are such a personal preference thing that I honestly hesitate to recommend one over another. As witnessed in this thread, sights are rather irrelevant to ones ability to hit small targets at distance.
So with that out of the way, my daily carry G19 has Dawson Precision adjustable sights on it. Front fiber (green). I tend to go with narrow front sights and close to matching square notched rear sights. Since I do shoot a lot of distance, I do not like fat sight front sights. I also tend to prefer adjustable rear sights as well as I only shoot very accurate pistols capable of 1" (or better) at 25yds.
The G43 I used in this thread is going to get the new Wilson Combat Vickers sights (fiber front, plain black rear).
YMMV.
C4
bigjohn1940
11-21-16, 11:48
I was surprised how accurate shooting slugs can be using the bead only. You can easily hit a 2x6 @ 40yds with 1 oz Remington slugs. I had it leaning against an old car body. It put a hole the size of my thumb in the 2x6 then went through both back doors and continued on across the desert.
JM
Got the WC Vickers sights on the G43. Will shoot some groups and see if I can beat the 5.5" no sight group.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Glock/G43_WC_Sights.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Glock/G43_WC_Sights1.jpg
C4
titsonritz
11-22-16, 13:36
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I
Evel Baldgui
11-22-16, 13:52
Sometimes I aim, sometimes just 'point shoot' without looking at the sights, but almost always no longer than 10 yds, 15yds and beyond I use my sights. Not as capable as most here I'm afraid, but ok.
It all comes down to what do you need to see to make the hit you need to make.
At 7 yds in I front sight it for a zone hits. At 25yds headshot, I need a good sight picture. In between, I use a rough/flash sight picture. It's a gray area.
I always use sights since, if I'm pulling the trigger, they are in my line of sight. Even "point shooting", I'm seeing the sights, so I have some for of refference.
MeanCarbine
11-25-16, 10:24
Grant...I assume that grouping was standing and not supported bench rested??
I have to stop my standing wobble before I can work on improving my trigger control. LOL
Grant...I assume that grouping was standing and not supported bench rested??
I have to stop my standing wobble before I can work on improving my trigger control. LOL
Yes, standing. Instead of trying to stop your wobble, realize that there really isn't that much movement AND to just accept it. Take a 1" circle and put it 6 inches from your muzzle. How much movement do you have? Probably not much. That same amount of wobble is there when that target is now 25yds away.
All a mental game...
C4
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