View Full Version : USMC wants to suppress an entire battalion's small arms
Interesting article on a trial of suppressing a deployed USMC battalion's small arms, including M249, M27, and eventually .50 MG.
Specific to the M4/A4s, how long before cans are standard issue to every issued carbine in the USMC? Obviously cost is the main hold-back, but the multiple benefits of running a "silent" ship are obvious.
n a series of experiments this year, units from 2nd Marine Division will be silencing every element of an infantry battalion -- from M4 rifles to .50 caliber machine guns.
"What we've found so far is it revolutionizes the way we fight," Love told Military.com. "It used to be a squad would be dispersed out over maybe 100 yards, so the squad leader couldn't really communicate with the members at the far end because of all the noise of the weapons. Now they can actually just communicate, and be able to command and control and effectively direct those fires."
But Wade said he will continue to gather data for the next year-and-a-half, following the units as they deploy. And he expects the idea to have gained significant traction among Marine Corps leadership by then, he said.
"When I show how much overmatch we gain … it will have sold itself," he said.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/11/22/corps-put-silencers-whole-infantry-battalion.html
If nothing else, this is a win for recruiters.
It would also save them money in hearing aids!! Mine suck
Common sense would dictate it would make leading and directing a team much more effective.
Put mini cans on the 14.5+ length guns and full size for SBR's. That would be great for our boys. Love to see that program widely implemented.
PB
At some point cans are going to become a disposable item, kind of like magazines are supposed to be. The sooner it happens the better.
At some point cans are going to become a disposable item, kind of like magazines are supposed to be. The sooner it happens the better.
Be still my heart...
Common sense would dictate it would make leading and directing a team much more effective.
Put mini cans on the 14.5+ length guns and full size for SBR's. That would be great for our boys. Love to see that program widely implemented.
PB
Oh yeah. That would be great.
This should have happened decades ago.
At some point cans are going to become a disposable item, kind of like magazines are supposed to be. The sooner it happens the better.
I tend to think of them more like barrels on precision rifles: when performance begins to suffer it's time for a new one.
"PFC why is your flash hider so rusty and caked with carbon? Didn't your drill instructor teach you to take your suppressor off regularly and clean the flash hider?"
Or
"SSgt my suppressor welded on to my barrel"
Or
"Well Gunny Supply, I need a new daypack because when I came off the range I set my rifle on the pack and my suppressor burned through it"
Or
"I hate these suppressors, armorer won't take my gun and said I need to scrub my bolt more."
Or
"No guys, don't have your Marines draw their suppressors for this training evolution, I'm tired of having ONE more piece of gear to be accountable for. **** that."
And
"Umm SSgt, I can't find my suppressor"
All coming to a Marine Corps near you
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
This should have happened decades ago.
If they'd have had them for the M60 maybe I wouldn't need hearing aids now.
(Harleys & loud rock n roll may have had something to do with it over the years too, but still....)
Failure2Stop
11-23-16, 22:19
The ONLY logical reason to NOT issue a suppressor to every rifle in an infantry Bn is cost.
Every other single argument against them is hollow.
And that cost is only about $640,000.
Gas the fukkin guns right and can em up.
tigershilone
11-23-16, 22:30
At some point cans are going to become a disposable item, kind of like magazines are supposed to be. The sooner it happens the better.
Glock all ready has a disposable can out there, good for 15-25 shots in 45acp. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnahn3D2sAc
Failure2Stop
11-23-16, 22:35
Glock all ready has a disposable can out there, good for 15-25 shots in 45acp. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnahn3D2sAc
Still subject to NFA regulation in the US.
The "disposable" comment earlier is more in regard to removing suppressors from NFA purview, thus making transfer, storage, and disposal infinitely more simple and inexpensive.
And yes, the Military and suppliers to the government still have to jump through NFA hoops.
Coal Dragger
11-23-16, 22:35
Gas the fukkin guns right and can em up.
Yep, put a good adjustable gas block on with pre-adusted settings for non suppressed and suppressed.
"PFC why is your flash hider so rusty and caked with carbon? Didn't your drill instructor teach you to take your suppressor off regularly and clean the flash hider?"
Or
"SSgt my suppressor welded on to my barrel"
Or
"Well Gunny Supply, I need a new daypack because when I came off the range I set my rifle on the pack and my suppressor burned through it"
Or
"I hate these suppressors, armorer won't take my gun and said I need to scrub my bolt more."
Or
"No guys, don't have your Marines draw their suppressors for this training evolution, I'm tired of having ONE more piece of gear to be accountable for. **** that."
And
"Umm SSgt, I can't find my suppressor"
All coming to a Marine Corps near you
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
"Pssst! Hey buddy. Wanna buy a Marine Corps issue silencer? Cheap?"
Still subject to NFA regulation in the US.
The "disposable" comment earlier is more in regard to removing suppressors from NFA purview, thus making transfer, storage, and disposal infinitely more simple and inexpensive.
And yes, the Military and suppliers to the government still have to jump through NFA hoops.
There is one other argument I can think of,
Will they be suppressing noise comming from the BN's LAVs, HMMWVs, MRAPS, MV-22s, etc? Or even the 240s, Mk19s, and M2s? Or the 40 some odd grunts per platoon swearing as they stomp around?
This is not going to happen. The Corps has zero funds to procure this and there are several priority items that will be purchased before they start chasing stuff like this. Ask me how I know...
I wonder how many suppressors we could buy for the cost of one F-35 Spruce Goose?
The ONLY logical reason to NOT issue a suppressor to every rifle in an infantry Bn is cost.
Every other single argument against them is hollow.
And that cost is only about $640,000.
Eurodriver
11-24-16, 04:22
"Pssst! Hey buddy. Wanna buy a Marine Corps issue silencer? Cheap?"
This depends if they classify them as a weapon and put them on the CRANE report.
If not, then you probably will see them end up like stolen PEQs, NVGs, ACOGs etc.
If they do, then I doubt it. Not like you are seeing M16A4s or M9s pop up on Gunbroker
It would also save them money in hearing aids!! Mine suck
Tinnitus sucks whale ballz.........drives me nuts. This along with hearing loss. Hearing aids do suck
Furbyballer
11-24-16, 09:07
I wonder how many suppressors we could buy for the cost of one F-35 Spruce Goose?
Hahaha, yea man. We could give cans to the entire corps for the price of one. Excited to see the results of this experiment.
556BlackRifle
11-24-16, 09:19
Hk, I have it too. Tinnitus is awful. If I don't think about it I'm okay most of the time but if I'm around loud machinery, it's brutal.
ATEC hasn't done any Real Testing, if we did I would be involved. So this is not Scientific and theres no real hard Data to justify Benefit. So until I see it IMO its a Political Statement by the Corps. The 1st thing that comes to mind is. Why Lengthen a rifle they've shortened? 2nd Does the Lengthening benefit outway the shortening Benefit? 3 steps forward 2 steps back?
I will be very interested in real data from those tests. Somehow i can't compute how this is going to work on regular infantry squad / platoon scale.
Every basic infantry platoon drill is based on gaining fire superiority - that means throwing many, many rounds on other guys in order to keep their heads down.
Many, many rounds down the pipe = heat problems. Dump 4 mags quickly from M4 (without a can) and rifle is hot - very hot. Go through 4 mags quickly with the can at the end and that can will almost glow and whole rifle will be smoking hot...just saying.
I understand that 249 and 240 have replaceable barrels, but even without suppressors those are getting hot quickly and you have to keep moving them around - that's why guys carry spare barrels.
Now time to run barrels with suppressors would be even shorter and this would lead to often barrel changes and guns will be off line more often and that means less rounds down the pipe...
Also, as pointed out, suppressor at the end of every rifle will add to overall length of that weapon...
Not hating the idea, just i'm puzzled by simple technical aspects of it.
dreamcrusher8307
11-24-16, 12:47
The ONLY logical reason to NOT issue a suppressor to every rifle in an infantry Bn is cost.
Every other single argument against them is hollow.
And that cost is only about $640,000.
That doesn't seem that bad actually. Is that current cost with the NFA in place? If so, can you estimate the cost without those hoops to jump through?
MOLON AABE
11-24-16, 14:37
"PFC why is your flash hider so rusty and caked with carbon? Didn't your drill instructor teach you to take your suppressor off regularly and clean the flash hider?"
Or
"SSgt my suppressor welded on to my barrel"
Or
"Well Gunny Supply, I need a new daypack because when I came off the range I set my rifle on the pack and my suppressor burned through it"
Or
"I hate these suppressors, armorer won't take my gun and said I need to scrub my bolt more."
Or
"No guys, don't have your Marines draw their suppressors for this training evolution, I'm tired of having ONE more piece of gear to be accountable for. **** that."
And
"Umm SSgt, I can't find my suppressor"
All coming to a Marine Corps near you
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Permantly attached cans, (removable by Battalion Armorers), and suppressor covers will fix 99% of what you mentioned.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
MOLON AABE
11-24-16, 14:42
If we could eliminate chocolate muffins entirely from the Marine Corps there would be enough left to get every peice of gear we as Marines want to see issued to us and enough left over to fund govt funded hookers for every single Marine for every 96.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Permantly attached cans, (removable by Battalion Armorers), and suppressor covers will fix 99% of what you mentioned.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
I'm merely joking, as I've heard Marines say all these things before and more about suppressors. Its a great idea, don't get me wrong, but remember, if anyone can figure out how to **** it up, it'll be Lcpl Schmukatelli.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
MOLON AABE
11-24-16, 14:47
I'm merely joking, as I've heard Marines say all these things before and more about suppressors. Its a great idea, don't get me wrong, but remember, if anyone can figure out how to **** it up, it'll be Lcpl Schmukatelli.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
This is true.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
pyrotechnic
11-24-16, 17:03
As with anything else, new equipment needs to be coupled with training in employment of said equipment. That training costs money as well. Ensuring every rifleman knows the actual capabilities and limitations of these cans will be important. I remember getting yelled at by my BN gunner in 2008 when attempting to determine in the can on my mk12 induced a shift in zero as "those suppressors are only good for 150-200 rounds, only use it operationally". My attempt to explain that ops Inc guaranteed them for 30k rounds fell on deaf ears as i obviously didn't know anything as an e3 vs a cwo5.
Combating these institutional biases and ensuring that leaders at all levels understand the benefits and drawbacks of these tools will be crucial in successful integration of suppressors in an infantry role. Whether the pro's outweigh the cons or vis versa is to be seen. I just hope that they get a fair shot and a fair evaluation.
SeriousStudent
11-24-16, 19:44
If we could eliminate chocolate muffins entirely from the Marine Corps there would be enough left to get every peice of gear we as Marines want to see issued to us and enough left over to fund govt funded hookers for every single Marine for every 96.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
I gotta ask: What is a chocolate muffin?
Hookers and 96's I'm already familiar with.
Combating institutional bias always seems to be a problem. I'm hoping the Corp does a better job at this then is sometimes seen.
MOLON AABE
11-24-16, 20:41
I gotta ask: What is a chocolate muffin?
Hookers and 96's I'm already familiar with.
Contract marriages.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
This is not going to happen. The Corps has zero funds to procure this and there are several priority items that will be purchased before they start chasing stuff like this. Ask me how I know...
My Marine Son and his unit were issued M4A1s with supressors in the beginning of October.
Andy
SeriousStudent
11-24-16, 22:25
Contract marriages.
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
Ah - AKA dependapotumus.
MOLON AABE
11-24-16, 22:28
My Marine Son and his unit were issued M4A1s with supressors in the beginning of October.
Andy
Infantry? Recon? MARSOC? Security Forces?
Velocitas, Opprimere,
Violentia Operandi
sinlessorrow
11-24-16, 23:37
The ONLY logical reason to NOT issue a suppressor to every rifle in an infantry Bn is cost.
Every other single argument against them is hollow.
And that cost is only about $640,000.
What's your thoughts on the increased wear from suppressors?
Is it a significant thing to be concerned about or is it really overblown?
Infantry? Recon? MARSOC? Security Forces?
Sorry for my late reply. He is a Combat Engineer operationally attached to Infantry. The Infantry Bn he supports was not issued the M4A1s/suppressors when his Engineer Company was. I want to say the Infantrymen are all running older M4s, but am not 100% on that.
Andy
P.S. His carbine is FN manufacture.
Sorry for my late reply. He is a Combat Engineer operationally attached to Infantry. The Infantry Bn he supports was not issued the M4A1s/suppressors when his Engineer Company was. I want to say the Infantrymen are all running older M4s, but am not 100% on that.
Andy
P.S. His carbine is FN manufacture.
Sounds about right. In my experience Marine 03's rarely get the good shit until everyone else gets theirs. YMMV
Coal Dragger
11-25-16, 13:36
Yep. In fact the 03's new M4A1's and suppressors (for the unit that is getting them) are probably sitting in an armory while the command delays issue of the gear and getting the old gear back. They're also surely dreading the accountability that will come with the cans, because they firmly believe their junior Marines are all either retarded or criminals.
Eurodriver
11-25-16, 13:46
Sounds about right. In my experience Marine 03's rarely get the good shit until everyone else gets theirs. YMMV
Wat.
Infantry got PEQ15s and ACOGs while everyone else was still rocking iron sights and PEQ2s.
Also got PEQ16s while everyone else was still rocking PEQ15s. ESAPIs, Eagle SPCs, LWHs, all went to 03s before anyone else saw them.
Sounds about right. In my experience Marine 03's rarely get the good shit until everyone else gets theirs. YMMV
That's kinda funny. The twenty years that I was a combat engineer I always showed up with more firepower per platoon that grunts. Gear organic to engineer platoons includes a 249 per squad, a 240 per squad as well as a SMAW per squad. That's on top of the demo, so cans wouldn't really be a big deal.
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