Assumptions about comparative ammo quality and "every barrel is a law unto itself"

[Aries144]

A relatively new .223 semi-auto rifle is benched and secured in a Led Sled at an indoor range. The rifle has been thoroughly inspected and found to be mechanically sound, all parts are in spec, nothing is loose, etc. The rifle has a 36x scope mounted. The target is at 100 yards. All inspection, setup, and shooting is performed by a professional gunsmith.

1 5-shot group is fired with Hornady 55gr V-max, which prints a 3 1/8" group. 1 5-shot group is fired with Tula 55gr FMJ, which prints a 2 7/8" group.

What conclusions should be drawn from this?

[wilson1911]

Your gun does not like 55gr ammo.

It's not a very thorough post.

[Leaveammoforme]

Is this a riddle?

I pondered and I'm feeling pretty confident in my answer utilizing the supplied information.

Mini-14.

[uffdaphil]

Grease under lead sled? Your buddy was slapping out Wipeout on the bench? Bad hiccups?

[markm]

Grease under lead sled? Your buddy was slapping out Wipeout on the bench? Bad hiccups?

Yeah... If a gun won't shoot Vmax bullets well... I'm talking MOA or better, there's a problem. 1.5 MOA would be just a mediocre Chrome Lined barrel. Over 2 MOA with VMAX is troubling.

The TULA sounds about right, because those bullets just suck. Everything about the Russian ammo is pretty good EXCEPT their bullets.

[rjacobs]

"why doesnt my $49 barrel from PSA shoot"

[Aries144]

Yeah... If a gun won't shoot Vmax bullets well... I'm talking MOA or better, there's a problem. 1.5 MOA would be just a mediocre Chrome Lined barrel. Over 2 MOA with VMAX is troubling.

The TULA sounds about right, because those bullets just suck. Everything about the Russian ammo is pretty good EXCEPT their bullets.

Thank you Markm, I was hoping for a reply from someone with your level of experience.

I forgot to mention that the barrel twist is 1/7.

Have any of you personally encountered a .223 barrel that shot this poorly with a premium quality 55gr bullet that would shoot more than .5 MOA better using 'an ammo it likes?'

[Kansaswoodguy]

Thank you Markm, I was hoping for a reply from someone with your level of experience.

I forgot to mention that the barrel twist is 1/7.

Have any of you personally encountered a .223 barrel that shot this poorly with a premium quality 55gr bullet that would shoot more than .5 MOA better using 'an ammo it likes?'

I have personally owned two AR-15 that fell into this realm one is an older 20" Bushmaster chrome lined 5.56 chamber that with the right handload can pull off MOA maybe a bit better. The other is a PSA Freedom stainless 1-7 twist 5.56 NATO chamber it actually shot 8" groups at 100yds on that one I removed the flash hider and re crowned the barrel with screw chucked up into a drill and a little valve lapping compound. It now shoots about 2 MOA as yours is shooting. I was done at that point fooling around with it for accuracy. It's 16" carbine with open sights only that's good enough for its intended roll. My WOA, Lother Walther, Krieger barrels don't suffer from this issue you get what you pay for. A good budget accuracy barrel are the DPMS stainless bull .223 R.E.M. chambered ones I have two of them they will shoot MOA or better with good ammo. Your gun may shoot just fine with a different ammo try several brands and bullet weights. Even premium barrels need load work up to shot at their best.

[markm]

Have any of you personally encountered a .223 barrel that shot this poorly with a premium quality 55gr bullet that would shoot more than .5 MOA better using 'an ammo it likes?'

I have not. But we now shoot mostly "heavies". I can't say that it's impossible that a VMAX hating barrel would shoot something else better, but in the limited amount of experience I've had with VMAX, the bullet (VMAX) usually out-shoots or matches everything else.

[bfoosh006]

Deleted

[bigedp51]

I have known several shooters with a "Led Sled" and they all found out the hard way the rifle would shoot better without it.

There is simply too much flex and movement with the "Led Sled" and you will not see any benchrest shooters using one.

Not long ago I had a "Led Sled" shooter sitting at the bench next to me at the range and shooting large groups and scratching his head.

I had him come to my bench and shoot off my rest and bags and his groups shrank to below an inch. I have a simple adjustable cast iron three legged front rest with attached bag and several type rear bags. And once in place it is very solid on our concrete benches and it doesn't move.

Read the link below and how this shooter is shooting bughole groups from a attached bipod. (KISS- Keep it simple stupid)

Bugholes from Bipod
http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/bugholes-from-bipod/

[C4IGrant]

In all the years I have been shooting, I have never seen a barrel that did not shoot the 55gr VMAX well. So your barrel OP is probably junk (assuming you know how to shoot).



C4


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[williejc]

Aries, when considering that the test centered around two 5 shot groups, any conclusions drawn will be based on scant data and would be considered weak. The fact that the shooter was a gunsmith only implies that he is a good marksman. So, here we have an unstated assumption. Another assumption is that each ammo type came from lots that were representative of the manufacturer's standards.

[taliv]

i would definitely conclude something is wrong.

of many many ARs, i have had two that shot like that. one was a very expensive factory gun from a big name sponsor here. they fixed it. not sure what was wrong. the other was a custom build i did. I replaced the high quality match barrel with an even higher quality krieger stainless barrel, both chambered by well regarded shops that cater to high power shooters. it still shoots like that. it's been sitting in the safe for several years waiting for me to get around to troubleshooting it.

it's been a while, but iirc, both shot handloaded single-fed 80g SMK in the 1.5" ballpark, which was twice as good as 55g, but still wildly unacceptable.

i posted this just to say, like c4grant, the barrel is where i'd look first, but it may not be the culprit

[Aries144]

The issue was with a non AR15 rifle that was sent back to the factory under warranty for testing, the results of which I mentioned in the 1st post. The company claimed the rifle had a "3" or 4" at 100 yard" accuracy spec, depending on who I spoke with. I thought they meant 4" at 100 yards with military ball, as they wouldn't tell me beforehand what ammunition they would use (CS rep's boss said that information was proprietary). The rifle passed their test, I was charged $70, and it's my problem again. I've already tried purchasing a spare factory barrel with no improvement over my original 5 MOA best results (75gr Prvi Partizan). I guess I could try a 3rd barrel and then send the rifle down the road if something reasonable can't be achieved with that.

Thanks for the help guys.

[mic2377]

It really depends on the platform. Some are just not that accurate intrinsically. Most namely the FAL or AK 47 comes to mind. Other platforms also suffer issues with wandering POI and POI that is changed by what rest is used.

If you are not happy after this much trouble, I would sell. I ran into this before and was happy to get rid of the problem piece.