View Full Version : First AR-15 Build Spreadsheet
Hi guys, I'm new to the forum and am currently in the process of making a spreadsheet for my first AR-15. I'm also new to guns so I've gotten a parts list together and was wondering if some of you could give me your $0.02 on the build so far. I know the main parts to focus on are the BCG and Barrel so if any of you have had a good experience with what you're running on your AR-15 let me know cause I'm open to making changes to this list. This is primarily going to be used for HD / Plinking, I'm also a lefty shooter if that's something to take into account. Thanks for the advice.
I'm going to be the guy and just say it. You can buy a solid complete rifle at a cheaper price then $1564.11. Have you factored in the proper tools you'll need in order to put the whole thing together as well?
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=BCOM
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=COLT
Just a couple of pages you could start your search at. Just my .02 cents and I'm only stating this option because you said you are new to firearms in general.
SeriousStudent
11-27-16, 12:47
Hi Eli, welcome to the forum.
There's a lot of wisdom in buying a separate upper and lower, and pushing the takedown pins in place. You do save a bit on the federal excise tax.
Also, the proper tools to build an AR do cost a bit of money.
Right now, there are some very good deals on the Colt 6720 and 6920 complete carbines. There are also some very good deals on uppers and other parts here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?190690-Black-Friday-Deals
Hi guys, I'm new to the forum and am currently in the process of making a spreadsheet for my first AR-15. I'm also new to guns so I've gotten a parts list together and was wondering if some of you could give me your $0.02 on the build so far. I know the main parts to focus on are the BCG and Barrel so if any of you have had a good experience with what you're running on your AR-15 let me know cause I'm open to making changes to this list. This is primarily going to be used for HD / Plinking, I'm also a lefty shooter if that's something to take into account. Thanks for the advice.
I'm curious why you are planning on using an 80% lower in this build? I agree with the poster above, it would be so much easier and cheaper to just buy a complete rifle, especially in todays market, than to build a rifle off of an 80% lower plus aquiring all the tools to do a build. Building AR's can be a fun hobby, but it's expensive. For your first AR I say buy a quality rifle like a Colt or BCM for $800-$900 and get to shooting. Build your second one.
A TLR-2 is not the best choice for laser on a long gun. The distance from the emitter to the mount is too high, so height over bore is too high to mount at 12:00.
So you mount it at 1:00 or 3:00 (for a lefty), then you have to deal with zero crossing point of the bullet trajectory on elevation AND windage.
I own 2 TLR-2s, they are excellent, but they are really made for pistols, not long guns. Id suggest a TLR-1 HPL instead.
EDIT: I will just be that guy also- save yourself a TON of headache and money. Plain old 6920, TLR-1, a decent 2 point sling, and a Aimpoint PRO would be cheaper and betterer.
Hey guys thanks for all the advice so far. I'm interested in the 80% lower just to give it a bit of a project build approach. I'd purchase a jig along with the lower and have access to a drill press as well. I'm interested in building my own rifle rather than buying a complete AR-15 that's already assembled just so I know how to assemble / disassemble one and get familiar with the parts when it comes to maintenance. It may be pricier and consume more time, but I'm willing to sacrifice that for the learning experience. As for the accessories on the list, I'm not really set on purchasing anything apart from the Holosun Red Dot, but with BFS recommending an Aimpoint PRO, I've got reading up to do.
Hey guys thanks for all the advice so far. I'm interested in the 80% lower just to give it a bit of a project build approach. I'd purchase a jig along with the lower and have access to a drill press as well. I'm interested in building my own rifle rather than buying a complete AR-15 that's already assembled just so I know how to assemble / disassemble one and get familiar with the parts when it comes to maintenance. It may be pricier and consume more time, but I'm willing to sacrifice that for the learning experience. As for the accessories on the list, I'm not really set on purchasing anything apart from the Holosun Red Dot, but with BFS recommending an Aimpoint PRO, I've got reading up to do.
After giving your list a quick once over, it looks like you are missing a few key parts (gas block, gas tube, a lower parts kit minus trigger and bolt catch). Seriously, for your first AR, get a complete rifle or a complete lower and a complete upper. You'll learn a lot more about the AR and have a lot more fun shooting a rifle that operates properly. Plus it's cheaper. Once you have a little experience with the platform, then build a gun. Also, I'd avoid the Holosun, get an Aimpoint instead.
EDIT: I will just be that guy also- save yourself a TON of headache and money. Plain old 6920, TLR-1, a decent 2 point sling, and a Aimpoint PRO would be cheaper and betterer.
Good advice. I'll add to BFS list:
- Rifle: Colt, BCM, Sionics, SOLGW (Complete rifle or complete upper & lower)
- Sling: 2 point sling (Proctor or Vickers)
- Optic: Any Aimpoint
- White Light: Surefire, Streamlight or Inforce WML
- Mags & Ammo
If you really want to learn about the AR, take a carbine class. You'll be happy you did.
556BlackRifle
11-27-16, 14:15
Hi Eli and welcome to the forum. I’d switch in the following:
BCM upper
Sionics NP3 BCG
BCM or Magpul pistol grip
I’d eliminate the following:
Brass Deflector
Battery Assist Device
Ambi mag release
I’d consider the following:
Skip the 80% and buy a quality lower from a reputable manufacturer
Sorry, but everyone I've ever seen who needs to make a spreadsheet has been victim of not really knowing what they are doing and throwing money into parts which they have no idea of. You want top end parts, then you throw in something like an Anderson receiver... but you want V7 parts on the lower.
The extra money spent on shipping from all the different places is wasted, when you could be just buying a known good product instead of a slapped together hodge podge of mismatched parts.
I know that in reading this you will probably be somewhat bothered by this reply, but try to take it at face value from someone who has seen this happen many times. Why not build up a lower first and see how that goes?
Big L.E.E.
11-27-16, 14:47
Your priorities are a bit backwards. Learn how to run the rifle first. Get a quality upper/lower or complete rifle, an Aimpoint PRO or Micro, then get some training. After a couple of training classes then start tinkering with a project gun.
I tend to agree. Mixing high end with low end usually ends in dead end.
Sorry, but everyone I've ever seen who needs to make a spreadsheet has been victim of not really knowing what they are doing and throwing money into parts which they have no idea of. You want top end parts, then you throw in something like an Anderson receiver... but you want V7 parts on the lower.
The extra money spent on shipping from all the different places is wasted, when you could be just buying a known good product instead of a slapped together hodge podge of mismatched parts.
I know that in reading this you will probably be somewhat bothered by this reply, but try to take it at face value from someone who has seen this happen many times. Why not build up a lower first and see how that goes?
justin_247
11-27-16, 14:54
Your list is kind of baffling to me. You mix high end parts with low end parts and all kinds of specialized parts (ie, stuff from V Seven and TC).
Why did cheap out on the upper receiver assembly and receiver extension kit (Anderson and Del-Ton parts)?
Why are you buying a BCM KeyMod rail if you're planning on using parts that use M-LOK (the AFG)?
What advantage does a Fail Zero BCG have over a mil-spec one from BCM, Colt, DD, LMT, etc?
This is a home defense gun, but you're willing to cheap out on the optic instead of spending slightly more on a known good quantity like an Aimpoint PRO?
This is your first gun, yet you're already looking at a Geissele trigger, a LaRue barrel, ambi charging handle, a muzzle brake, 40 round PMAGs, suppressors, and battery assist devices?
Oh, and you forgot a gas tube, low profile gas block, many of your lower parts, an optic mount, sling, and tools.
Sorry, dude, but you'd be better served spending your money on a complete rifle from BCM, Colt, DD, or LMT, or at least one that's mostly complete that you can configure a little more to your liking (like a Colt OEM2), and spending the money saved on ammo.
Your priorities are a bit backwards. Learn how to run the rifle first. Get a quality upper/lower or complete rifle, an Aimpoint PRO or Micro, then get some training. After a couple of training classes then start tinkering with a project gun.
This times a Billion.
I tend to agree. Mixing high end with low end usually ends in dead end.
That is if he gets past the 80% lower finished with a drill press part.
RobertTheTexan
11-27-16, 16:25
Hey guys thanks for all the advice so far. I'm interested in the 80% lower just to give it a bit of a project build approach. I'd purchase a jig along with the lower and have access to a drill press as well. I'm interested in building my own rifle rather than buying a complete AR-15 that's already assembled just so I know how to assemble / disassemble one and get familiar with the parts when it comes to maintenance. It may be pricier and consume more time, but I'm willing to sacrifice that for the learning experience. As for the accessories on the list, I'm not really set on purchasing anything apart from the Holosun Red Dot, but with BFS recommending an Aimpoint PRO, I've got reading up to do.
I apologize upfront my M4C brethren, this is going to be a long post, because I have been exactly where the OP is and I want to try and be a help.
As I said, I started out like you. I wanted to build my first AR from scratch, although for my first AR I used a stripped Anderson upper and lower. For my first AR, I also had two friends who had built multiple AR's from scratch - between the two I believe at that time they had built about 18 AR's, and one of my friends had extensive "live" use of his AR on a few different continents, with his own custom upper married up to his unit issued lower, so I had deep resources to tap into that went well beyond building that were a text or phone call away. That makes a huge difference. In fact, even though I've now built several AR's I still give my friend a heads up when I start a new build, to make sure "the support line is available".
So if you are absolutely intent on building your own AR.... Continue reading.
The first change I would recommend, is that you start out with a stripped lower. I understand the sense of a "project" as you mentioned, but trust me, building your first AR from scratch is a worthy project in every sense of the word. Especially since you are new to guns. I grew up hunting and shooting, I owned 15 guns at the time I joined the Army, then I spent 15 years in the Army, but that more or less prepped me to field strip an AR. Sure I knew function checks and how to do some remedial action, how to disassemble down to the bolt extractor, and I knew the function of each part for the most part, but that really did not prepare me to install a LPK (Lower Parts Kit), or timing my barrel nut, or timing my brake/comp for that matter, or installing and aligning the the gas block and tube properly so my weapon will cycle correctly. I say again, my experience did NOT prepare me for that. My two friends and some grace of making mistakes that were not irreversible is what got me through my first build. (and probably my second.)
I've built seven AR's in these past two years, and milled four 80's. One of those 80's is still in my parts bin. It MAY be salvageable, but I'm not sure. One was destroyed and is garbage. (It was too heartbreaking to use as a paper weight.)
I totally get what you want to do. You want to build an AR to learn about it top to bottom and experience a pretty amazing feeling when you take it to the range and hammer a few mags down range. It really is quite an amazing feeling that I experience when I successfully build a fully functioning AR. I have not bought one yet, I haven't as much bought a completed lower or upper, and I'm ok with that. My point is you will get that satisfaction from starting off with a stripped lower and upper. You will get that when you successfully get that front pivot pin installed without shooting the pivot spring across your work shop, never, ever to be found again. (EVER!) You'll experience when you get that RE end plate installed without putting your eye out or bending the safety select spring. ---- OR ---- you'll experience great frustration when you do shoot that pivot spring across your work bench the SECOND time, and realize that your LPK came with only two springs and you do not have a spare spring and your lower build just ground to a halt. Or you bend that safety selector spring, or shoot your buffer retaining pin sky high.... My point (I'm getting there finally) is that building a fully functional AR from a stripped lower and upper IS AN OUTSTANDING ACCOMPLISHMENT. Once you've done that - and learn some basics, attend some training courses, go to the range, training, buying your ammo..TRAINING....THEN pick up an 80% lower receiver and the jigs. Take your time and mill out your lower. Then build your lower with a new LPK..slap it on your already built upper and function check it. Then go from there or have a spare lower. I will tell you first hand, milling a lower is an exercise that requires extreme PATIENCE. (Unless you get the ghost gun lower mill, then it's not so much of a headache at all.) It's not as fast nor as easy as the guys on Youtube show you. They've probably milled a 100 lowers. I milled mine with a commercial grade drill press that had both vertical locks and programmable x and y axis, and I still burned through the bottom of one of the lowers I was milling. And I actually started with a polymer lower to "practice" on. I figured the polymer would mill easier and I could prove out my jig template and tolerance, and learn any minor adjustments to the tolerances before I started on a forged or billet lower. (To date I've only milled forged lowers.)
I think I could also make recommendations to your parts list, but so much of building an AR is a personal experience. For example I started off with an DSG LPK, all high quality parts, all milspec, with a mil spec bolt release, but I used an enhanced trigger guard. I trained with that gun, it was a good shooting gun, and then I installed a ambi bolt catch because I could see the value in that ambi bolt catch. Now all my AR’s have them. But I started out with a basic LPK and as my skills such as mag changes, and responding to FTF’s improved, I saw the value in an ambi bolt catch for example, later as I trained and drilled, I saw the value in Redi-Mag, and so I “upgraded” my subsequent builds. But I started off with mil spec and made sure I knew how to function and operate the basics before I jumped into the Ferrari.
So my advice to you:
If you are set on building your first AR - then build. With the following caveats.
1.Don’t start off with the 80%. Build using a stripped lower and upper. I use Aero Precision, or BCM and have a Colt upper or two. Trust me, you WILL get a tremendous sense of satisfaction when you finish a fully functional AR. You WILL be challenged in the build process and you will definitely learn. Once you have your AR built and are training on it, order a couple of lowers and learn that process. It is a challenge enough in itself.
2.Try to have one or two resources readily available. M4C is a resource for you because there are some amazing guys on here. But they are not a phone call away, so be prepared that you may get more than one answer, and it’s possible you could have to wait.
3.Have you defined a purpose for your AR? I didn’t see you mention it. If not, then you need to determine what you want to use this AR for.
4.Apply the KISS principle to your first build. Learn how to operate a standard milspec bolt catch THEN if you find the value in it, upgrade to an ambi. Same for the mag release. Learn how to function a standard mil spec mag release (Granted they usually aren’t much different than mil spec.) I think starting off with an ambi selector switch is fine as that typically doesn’t change the function of the mil spec standard function.
5.If you want to apply an upgrade, I personally like Vltor A5 buffer system. Some people are good with the standard carbine length, but I really favor the Vltor A5, and from an installation and butt stock perspective, it is still mil spec and installs the same.
You will discover as you build one AR, and then maybe another that you will want to try something different. BUIS are a good example. You started off with Magpul MBUS, you’ll see a good deal for a pair of Troy or BCM labeled Troy’s and give them a shot and maybe decide you like that better with an HK style front for example.
My point here is it seems like you are trying to build everything and the kitchen sink with every option available, yet you aren’t proficient at ejecting and inserting a 30rd mag using a mil spec mag release. I am not intending this in a rude way, but to just try and get a point across. You already have enough moving parts and things going on with a custom build. Simplify where you can simplify. Believe me, an AR build is a “living project”. Take for example my first build. This past week, I pulled off the Troy VTAC rail and installed a Seekins lightweight rail, installed a titanium comp and will put a light weight optic on it because I decided to take advantage of the Daniel Defense lightweight barrel, and build me a lightweight AR. Your AR will evolve over time. Because frankly right now you don’t know what you like or what you don’t like, basing that on your comment you are new to guns in general. Training with your AR, will help you figure out what you like and don’t like. Shooting with buddies will help you with that also. But give yourself room to grow, and I really don’t see you doing much of that.
I'm not by any means bragging. I don't own any of this equipment, I'm just saying I had access to EXCELLENT equipment, with x and y axis parameters and a vertical stop and I STILL jacked up a couple of lowers.
Some Lessons Learned:
1. Define the purpose of your AR. Make sure the parts you buy support that mission. Be aware of scope creep (project scope, not optic scope. lol) Create your build list. Get some eyes on and "sign off" from experienced builders who understand your mission/purpose of the weapon and STICK TO THE BUILD LIST. Also you are mixing some good stuff with some mediocre stuff. Having an experienced resource can point you to CONSISTENCY in your parts. You do not have consistency at this point.
2. Buy quality tools. Crappy Wheeler barrel wrenches will only jack up your barrel nut. Low quality pins will only break and mar the surface of your AR.
3. KISS when possible. Keep It Simple!! Learn how the mil spec parts function first before going all "ambi-everything".
4. If you are unsure, ASK. Again the benefit of having resources quickly available to help you cannot be understated, especially for beginners.
5. Be aware of the difference between "Tacticool" and "Functional". There is a huge difference IMO. If you want something pretty - that will limit your knowledge base. If you want to build functional, you'll find guys here with more knowledge than you can imagine.
6. Know your weapon. That requires you train with your weapon, which involves more than just pulling the trigger. Way more. Euro_driver I believe quoted someone who said, "We spend more money on hardware and not enough on software." Meaning we spend all our bucks on the latest high speed low drag gadgets, but $0 on training. That's about the most spot-on comment you could hear regarding where much of the shooting community sits.
For reference of the equipment I was working with and one of my booboo's:
What you see here with the "M" is part of the drill press I used for my lowers. It is a beast.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/robertestx/The%20Mill/IMG_0686_zpsum7zhrj4.jpg
What one unknown variable resulted in. (My bit loosened and as a result, it slid down a millimeter or so and was enough to punch through the bottom of my fire control well.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/robertestx/The%20Mill/IMG_0745_zpsabbsch7f.jpg
You asked for our .02 cents, and there is mine.
Let me know if you have any questions about the milling or building. Still use the forum – As you can already see, tons of knowledge available.
Again apologies for such a long post.
Eli - I've been kind of where you are at, after about a decade of using work AR's I decided to build one. If you are dead set on building one, my advice would be to go budget all the way. Make sure you understand that even with a budget approach you are going to spend more than you would on an entry level Colt 6920.
I don't tend to get to wrapped around the axle about the lower receiver as it has little to do with the overall accuracy of the rifle. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot that can go wrong in a receiver, but essentially as long as the mag release is located correctly, the mag well is in spec and the trigger and hammer pin holes are sized and located correctly, you should be good to go. For budget builds I've used PSA stripped lowers with good success, and I'm about 500 rounds into a rifle with an Alexandria Pro-Fab lower (59.00 off of AIM Surplus) with no complaints.
Lower Parts kits are another story. You don't want to go crazy, here are some good choices which all have enhanced mil-spec triggers:
BCM Enhanced LPK http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Enhanced-Lower-Parts-Kit-BCM-M4-p/bcm-elpk-semi-blk.htm
Sionics Enhanced LPK - http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/lower-receiver-parts/46-bolt-carrier-group-hpmpi-tested-with-np3-carrier.html (note you can add an Ambi-Safety
ALG LPK minus trigger - https://algdefense.com/ar15-m4-mil-spec-lower-parts-kit-less-trigger-less-grip.html Add the Advanced Combat Trigger for 44.85 on Cyber Monday - https://algdefense.com/alg-combat-trigger-act.html
PSA - this is the Defender LPK with their EPT trigger and an Ambi Safety - http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-defender-classic-lower-parts-kit.html I've used this LPK in my last two builds, I like the trigger.
In buying LPK's one consideration might be getting one without the grip - I have quite the collection of MOE and generic grips because I use B5 Type 23 grips.
I would say on the upper you definitely want to buy a BCM blem when they go on sale - I've yet to really see a blemish on any I've bought.
Bolt Carrier Group - watch AIM Surplus for ToolCraft BCG's (right now Cryptic Coating has the black nitirde or parkerized for $110.00 - http://www.crypticcoatings.com/coated-bolt-carrier-group/) or go with a BCM BCG
Barrel - I'm a big fan of Green Mountain Barrels.
I have to run because of visitors, good luck.
I been to Colt LE armorer a few times in my sorry life and put together a more or less 85-90% KAC M110K1 clone....
All that said, I'd say save your kopecks and get a factory rifle. A quality factory gun.
You can watch youtube and listen to grumpy middle aged men on the internet all day, but unless you have someone super knowledgeable there to guide you along, the trouble is not worth it.
Headspace is real. Improperly installed Fire Control Group is real and easily missed if not well versed.
And despite what the guy at the gun store says, not all parts are equal nor "made the same place just rebranded".
Learning how to build one is fine, but if this is your first and main rifle; you want one factory made and relatively basic.
I have some wacky little projects but my go-to is my 2003 vintage 6920. Stock and with same barrel.
I am not the final word on anything nor an expert. Just saying. YMMV.
I will say a lot of super knowledgeable people have chimed in and if I see IG or Stickman or JoshNC post on a tech forum; I pay attention.
Eli,
There is a whole lot of wisdom above.
I would recommend that you buy a complete upper from the ones recommended. To satisfy your itch to build, buy a decent stripped lower and build it to completion.
Good luck,
Eric
There is a ton of valuable information in this thread OP, please listen to it. 99% of those here on M4C are going to steer you in the right direction. As others have said, it is wise to wait until you know how to properly use the rifle before jumping head first into shallow water. At this point you don't even know what you do or don't like about the weapon. Why dump money into a build that you, more than likely, will want to change anyway? If this is ever going to be a weapon that you bet your life on (or your family for that matter) then buy a complete rifle or complete upper/lower as your first rifle. It's hard enough to *correctly* assemble your first AR15 from a stripped lower, doing so from an 80% lower is not advisable. I have a few complete BCM rifles with all the bells and whistles, but truth be told my Colt 6920 that I've had for years does everything that they do, and as much as I like my other rifles, my Colt isn't going anywhere. It just works. If I were you I'd buy a Colt 6720 (It has a lightweight barrel vs the pointlessly heavy government profile barrel). I'd add a Blue Force Gear sling, IWC (Impact Weapons Components) 1" offset light mount with Surefire G2X, a quality back up iron sight, and an Aimpoint Pro (or Aimpoint H1 if you can swing it). You'd have a rifle that does 110% of what someone's first rifle should do, and be well under budget. With what's left I'd buy a ten pack of USGI or Magpul PMAGs and ammo. Let that rifle be the test bed for what you want your first build to be. I promise you'll be happy you did.
Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
SeriousStudent
11-27-16, 21:43
There is a ton of valuable information in this thread OP, please listen to it. 99% of those here on M4C are going to steer you in the right direction. As others have said, it is wise to wait until you know how to properly use the rifle before jumping head first into shallow water. At this point you don't even know what you do or don't like about the weapon. Why dump money into a build that you, more than likely, will want to change anyway? If this is ever going to be a weapon that you bet your life on (or your family for that matter) then buy a complete rifle or complete upper/lower as your first rifle. It's hard enough to *correctly* assemble your first AR15 from a stripped lower, doing so from an 80% lower is not advisable. I have a few complete BCM rifles with all the bells and whistles, but truth be told my Colt 6920 that I've had for years does everything that they do, and as much as I like my other rifles, my Colt isn't going anywhere. It just works. If I were you I'd buy a Colt 6720 (It has a lightweight barrel vs the pointlessly heavy government profile barrel). I'd add a Blue Force Gear sling, IWC (Impact Weapons Components) 1" offset light mount with Surefire G2X, a quality back up iron sight, and an Aimpoint Pro (or Aimpoint H1 if you can swing it). You'd have a rifle that does 110% of what someone's first rifle should do, and be well under budget. With what's left I'd buy a ten pack of USGI or Magpul PMAGs and ammo. Let that rifle be the test bed for what you want your first build to be. I promise you'll be happy you did.
Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
It's funny, that was the config I came up with in my head while walking my dog tonight. I'm not kidding - Sling, light, mount, optic all the same.
Eli - just add a case of decent 5.56 ammo, and you are golden.
Then we'll help you hunt down a lower, a lower parts kit, and welcome you to the addiction. :cool:
Thanks man I appreciate the constructive criticism from you and everyone else on the forum. I know a lot of people are recommending to buy a complete rifle but I'm being stubborn on the 80% Lower. I'm leaning towards a 16" BCM complete upper, a Geissele G2S Trigger with a LPK, as well as a SureFire G2X Light. The lower is still up in the air for me but I'd like to stick with the 80% lower. :eek:
RobertTheTexan
11-27-16, 22:43
Eli - I've been kind of where you are at, after about a decade of using work AR's I decided to build one. If you are dead set on building one, my advice would be to go budget all the way. Make sure you understand that even with a budget approach you are going to spend more than you would on an entry level Colt 6920.
I don't tend to get to wrapped around the axle about the lower receiver as it has little to do with the overall accuracy of the rifle. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot that can go wrong in a receiver, but essentially as long as the mag release is located correctly, the mag well is in spec and the trigger and hammer pin holes are sized and located correctly, you should be good to go. For budget builds I've used PSA stripped lowers with good success, and I'm about 500 rounds into a rifle with an Alexandria Pro-Fab lower (59.00 off of AIM Surplus) with no complaints.
Lower Parts kits are another story. You don't want to go crazy, here are some good choices which all have enhanced mil-spec triggers:
BCM Enhanced LPK http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Enhanced-Lower-Parts-Kit-BCM-M4-p/bcm-elpk-semi-blk.htm
Sionics Enhanced LPK - http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/lower-receiver-parts/46-bolt-carrier-group-hpmpi-tested-with-np3-carrier.html (note you can add an Ambi-Safety
ALG LPK minus trigger - https://algdefense.com/ar15-m4-mil-spec-lower-parts-kit-less-trigger-less-grip.html Add the Advanced Combat Trigger for 44.85 on Cyber Monday - https://algdefense.com/alg-combat-trigger-act.html
PSA - this is the Defender LPK with their EPT trigger and an Ambi Safety - http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-defender-classic-lower-parts-kit.html I've used this LPK in my last two builds, I like the trigger.
In buying LPK's one consideration might be getting one without the grip - I have quite the collection of MOE and generic grips because I use B5 Type 23 grips.
I would say on the upper you definitely want to buy a BCM blem when they go on sale - I've yet to really see a blemish on any I've bought.
Bolt Carrier Group - watch AIM Surplus for ToolCraft BCG's (right now Cryptic Coating has the black nitirde or parkerized for $110.00 - http://www.crypticcoatings.com/coated-bolt-carrier-group/) or go with a BCM BCG
Barrel - I'm a big fan of Green Mountain Barrels.
I have to run because of visitors, good luck.
26,
Did you find your 10 years of use was sufficient to help you through the build process? Or did you have to seek out advice? I was seriously about to delete my post because I read all the posts from guys I have a great deal of respect for and was thinking I may be the minority of those whose builds function as they should. But I go back the driving factor: Experience/knowledge. My friend had a ton of both. Heck one of them even took my build sheet and basically rewrote it. Needless to say I followed his advice and still do to this day. (For the most part when I don't, I end up jacking something up.). He made sure I spent money on quality in the areas I needed to. I think if I had experienced a lot of issues with my builds, no doubt I would have recommended the same thing everyone else for the most part has, but it's been nothing short of some of the best experiences & greatest satisfaction I've had terms of things I've built with my own two hands.
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Jwknutson17
11-27-16, 23:53
I don't get how folks come on here saying they are new to firearms, asking for advice, and then are stuck in their way. Why ask for advice if your unwilling to learn from the many people that have been down the same road your on??? The only logical reason I can see that you must do an 80% lower is you cannot pass a background check. I'm actually surprised with the time folks have put into their replies to your inquiry. Folks here are good people and are steering you in the right direction. Its truly from experience and what would be most beneficial to you as a new gun owner and shooter. Whatever way you go, stay safe and good luck with the build.
Welcome. Warning, my thoughts are not as eloquent as others nor am I anywhere near as knowledgeable as probably 90% of this forum, I just listen a lot and I have some experience. I agree with Stick, if you're making a spreadsheet, you're in trouble if you're wanting NOT to waste money. I get the "keep it organized," but I promise you, you'll either A) spend way too much or B) not spend it at all after you see the "final cost." Been there done that, I can tell you there are at least 3 spread sheets on my computer exactly like yours, I got lucky and waited and realized I would have spent WAAYYYY too much on the first one and didn't see out the others based solely on this... In today's day in age, there's probably a rifle that fits almost 100% of what you want. Stick to a reputable brand and research research research. There is a wealth of knowledge in this forum and I'll advise you to listen more than you post. Don't forget your rifle will change.
Not to be rude, but your rifle is the definition of FRANKENGUN. Some high speed parts with some HIGH drag parts............ Also you're missing the important parts, springs, detents, you know, things that hold the gun together......
Simplified,
1) Research what to look for in a rifle. It's the small things, staking, BCG, if you want a front sight base the front sight base, materials used, manufacturing process (ex. following TDP) etc... you can find that here, use the search feature and read read read.
2) Verify on your own companies' tech specs. If they aren't disclosing specs, there's a reason, rule of thumb for me is steer clear or call and ask.
3) Get unstubborn, stubborn can be a good thing, but not here. Like I said there's a wealth of knowledge here, some may be blunt in their responses, some may be more PC. But everyone here is coming from a common place of interest in learning and more importantly sharing real life experiences.
4) Skip the cheap optics, I understand them, I've bought one... However, you will learn, there's a difference between a $500 Aimpoint and a $80 dollar Primary Arms... I know this because I had a PA, it worked, right up to the time it broke about 500 rounds in. Same goes for Holosun, it's got the bells and whistles, just not the construction.
5) Me personally, skip the 80% lower, if you want to "build" buy a stripped and learn to put that together first before you jump into machine work. My thoughts, BCM will be your friend if you're piecing together. Small parts, LPK, receiver extension, that kind of thing. You pay one shipping fee that way too. Once you have that under your belt, maybe more than once, then maybe get into 80% lowers, and this is coming from someone who is mechanically inclined and extremely OCD when it comes to building things, if I do say so myself. I have the tools to do it and I still haven't made that plunge.
6) You're left handed, you don't need a BAD. Your fire control hand can manipulate the bolt catch. Also your support hand can release the magazine. Be functional not tacticool. Learn to manipulate a "MIL-SPEC" AR before you get all high speed with everything other than the coffee machine. Don't forget ounces equals pounds, pounds equals pain. You don't become a race car driver by hopping straight into an 800hp stock car, you gotta learn to drive first.
7)You want a full rifle, BCM and Colt are some pretty good budget friendly rifles that don't really get much better and just flat out work and work well. You start paying more and you're getting bells and whistles or some proprietary stuff. Some are worth it (see KAC) some are just bells and whistles.
Don't forget to add an end mill to your list of tools. A drill press brings a high chance of garring up not only your lower, but your template as well. It can be done, it just took a particularly ignorant non-machinist to seize the opportunity.
Why not buy a complete rifle and dis-assemble/reassemble it some time down the road say, to upgrade the trigger?
CrazyFingers
11-28-16, 10:54
Thanks man I appreciate the constructive criticism from you and everyone else on the forum. I know a lot of people are recommending to buy a complete rifle but I'm being stubborn on the 80% Lower. I'm leaning towards a 16" BCM complete upper, a Geissele G2S Trigger with a LPK, as well as a SureFire G2X Light. The lower is still up in the air for me but I'd like to stick with the 80% lower. :eek:
So, you're willing to change most if not all of your spreadsheet to whatever the forum recommends, but you won't budge on the one part that will be the most difficult to accomplish, and just happens to let you skip a 4473?
42596
556BlackRifle
11-28-16, 11:11
So, you're willing to change most if not all of your spreadsheet to whatever the forum recommends, but you won't budge on the one part that will be the most difficult to accomplish, and just happens to let you skip a 4473?
42596
I agree. There must be more to this story.
Jwknutson17
11-28-16, 11:30
The only logical reason I can see that you must do an 80% lower is you cannot pass a background check.
I agree. There must be more to this story.
Said it a few posts back, and also agree here that the 4473 would be a big DENIAL!
RobertTheTexan
11-28-16, 11:42
So, you're willing to change most if not all of your spreadsheet to whatever the forum recommends, but you won't budge on the one part that will be the most difficult to accomplish, and just happens to let you skip a 4473?
42596
I started my post out with a "I've been where he is" statement. But that's not really true. I didn't go into any build thinking I had it all figured out and refusing to give way to common sense and the advice of those much more savvy than me. I still don't have that attitude, and it does seem I learn something new each time I build.
I also don't get the hang up on the 80. I thought many others, myself included gave some solid reasons for not going this route. But it's his deal. Not mine.
titsonritz
11-28-16, 11:44
New to ARs + 80% lower = recipe for disaster. :bad:
You might want to re-read the above suggestions steering you away from your current coarse, they are spot on. If you are simply attempting a 4473 go-around, well...what can I say, other than carry on.
That is if he gets past the 80% lower finished with a drill press part.
Yah he should do himself a favor and scrap that idea. Trying to mill in a drill press is an invitation to injury before you talk about the knowledge gap. Drill chucks weren't designed to hold tooling while subjected to lateral forces....
Mr. Goodtimes
11-28-16, 12:34
Just buy a complete rifle... there is no reason to avoid a 4473 unless you're a felon. If you're worried about day dur gubment knowing about your evil black rifle and taking it, you need to revaluate you're life. If the government is confiscating firearms (of any kind) you have bigger fish to fry.
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RobertTheTexan
11-28-16, 12:36
Yah he should do himself a favor and scrap that idea. Trying to mill in a drill press is an invitation to injury before you talk about the knowledge gap. Drill chucks weren't designed to hold tooling while subjected to lateral forces....
That may be the reason my milling bit loosened up. I do know the machine had the gonads for the job, once I implemented a procedure to tighten the bit every 10 minutes I didn't experience any issues there.
My next 80's will be on a mill converted to a CNC.
If he's using a non-industrial press he is opening himself up for making paperweights. IMO based on what I've seen my friends try to do with a craftsman drill press and a X-Y axis vise. One word: DISASTER.
It's funny, that was the config I came up with in my head while walking my dog tonight. I'm not kidding - Sling, light, mount, optic all the same.
My wife actually asked me to set up a rifle for her and that was the setup I came up with. Of course, after thinking about how much sense that setup made, I decided I needed one too. There's definitely something to be said for keeping it simple.
OP: No one can stop you from building (or attempting to build) an 80% lower. The majority here see their rifles as tools, and using an improperly made tool because you don't know what you don't know isn't an option for most here. There is too much money and too little positive outcome for most here to take that chance. There are other forums that are geared more towards hobby guns than M4C, and most here will tell you that's where an 80% lower fits in (unless you have the knowledge and experience to do it properly). Now if you are indeed trying to get around a BGC then I don't know what to tell you.. Tread very lightly..
This thread isn't about a 4473 or the legal status of the OP. Offer suggestions about the build.
That may be the reason my milling bit loosened up. I do know the machine had the gonads for the job, once I implemented a procedure to tighten the bit every 10 minutes I didn't experience any issues there.
My next 80's will be on a mill converted to a CNC.
If he's using a non-industrial press he is opening himself up for making paperweights. IMO based on what I've seen my friends try to do with a craftsman drill press and a X-Y axis vise. One word: DISASTER.
I'd say that's a good analysis of the situation. They either loosen up or fail and eventually a tool goes flying. There's a reason mills use collets or holders that hold the entire shank of the tool instead of a chuck that basically holds it at 3 points.
Shop sales.
I laugh at MSRP prices, because of what the S is for... "Suggested"
I really wanted a Geissele Mk8 for my last build, but could never justify the $250 price tag and included gas block that I did not need. I was patient and found it on sale for 25% off and sold the gas block for $48. That put me right around $140 total. Shopping like that allowed me to build a $1500 rifle for roughly half of that.
Use your spreadsheet to list the parts, but make another column for the price you actually paid. You will either be very happy for shopping smart or very angry for being impatient.
RobertTheTexan
11-28-16, 13:43
I'd say that's a good analysis of the situation. They either loosen up or fail and eventually a tool goes flying. There's a reason mills use collets or holders that hold the entire shank of the tool instead of a chuck that basically holds it at 3 points.
Yes sir that's a very good point. The industrial drill press was only used because the mill was in the process of being converted to a CNC machine and I wanted to know if I could do it. What's the saying? Just because you can doesn't mean you should...
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RobertTheTexan
11-28-16, 13:48
My
OP: ... The majority here see their rifles as tools, and using an improperly made tool because you don't know what you don't know isn't an option for most here. There is too much money and too little positive outcome for most here to take that chance. ..
Rogue, being a guy that has milled 80's, I agree with your comments. None of my 80 lowers are my first choice for protecting those entrusted to me. My go-to rifles are all built with manufacturer parts from well known reputable manufacturers. Common sense says if I'm going to put my family's life on the line, the tool I'm using is going to be made of parts made by folks who make their living by doing this not because it's a fun hobby. (The best hobby I have ever had)
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Go with the info provided from some of the most knowledgeable people on this forum. They know what they are talking about and have provided many of the people here with solid information and steered many of us towards quality products that fit the needs we have stated.
Best bet is to buy a known quality assembled lower if you are new to the AR platform or guns in general. I believe you can even purchase a BCM lower from G&R and order it with the G2S trigger installed. If you mess up your 80% lower you're out the money and will have to either buy another and try again or buy a fully assembled lower. I've assembled a few AR's by ordering all the individual parts and while I got exactly what I thought I wanted none of those guns do anything better than my factory DD, Noveske and BCM rifles don't do and they typically cost more money than just buying a factory lower or rifle. Just my 2 cents but good luck with whichever route you choose!
This thread isn't about a 4473 or the legal status of the OP. Offer suggestions about the build.
My suggestion... Why on earth would you spend more more for an 80% and jig than you would for a properly machined lower if you can legally possess a firearm? The building part is bullshit. If he really wants to build a lower he needs to start with a piece of 7075 billet. He could be proud of that.
26,
Did you find your 10 years of use was sufficient to help you through the build process? Or did you have to seek out advice? I was seriously about to delete my post because I read all the posts from guys I have a great deal of respect for and was thinking I may be the minority of those whose builds function as they should. But I go back the driving factor: Experience/knowledge. My friend had a ton of both. Heck one of them even took my build sheet and basically rewrote it. Needless to say I followed his advice and still do to this day. (For the most part when I don't, I end up jacking something up.). He made sure I spent money on quality in the areas I needed to. I think if I had experienced a lot of issues with my builds, no doubt I would have recommended the same thing everyone else for the most part has, but it's been nothing short of some of the best experiences & greatest satisfaction I've had terms of things I've built with my own two hands.
I was an LE Armorer on the AR - Colt (a couple times) and Greg Sullivan (basic and advanced) - Sully's course was by far the most useful. Plus I've played around with building engines, so I didn't hesitate to try it on my own. I still haven't purchased a complete rifle, and have several I've built out with friends and relatives.
Another thing I do is copy/download all kinds of stuff on AR's from the internet.
6) You're left handed, you don't need a BAD. Your fire control hand can manipulate the bolt catch. Also your support hand can release the magazine. Be functional not tacticool. Learn to manipulate a "MIL-SPEC" AR before you get all high speed with everything other than the coffee machine. Don't forget ounces equals pounds, pounds equals pain. You don't become a race car driver by hopping straight into an 800hp stock car, you gotta learn to drive first.
Hey Eli - Lefty here. Good advice from mballz23. I have two rifles set up with Troy ambi-mag releases - they get used when I remind myself to use them, other wise:
Speedload: support (right) hand comes around front of magazine well; thumb punches magazine release as support hand strips downward ensuring magazine falls clear; support hand continues movement to new magazine; seat and tug new mag.
Emergency: support (right) hand comes around front of magazine well; thumb punches magazine release as support hand strips downward ensuring magazine falls clear; support hand continues movement to new magazine; seat and tug new mage; support (right) hand comes around front of magazine well; fingers depress bolt catch.
Retention: support (right) hand comes around front of magazine well encircling magazine in weapon as support hand thumb punches magazine release; support hand strips partial magazine and stows; support hand obtains new magazine; seat and tug.
Left-handed shooters run the charging handle by one of several methods:
• Holding the weapon into the shoulder with the support hand and removing the left hand from its shooting grip to cycle the action;
• Rolling the weapon slightly to the right and reaching over the weapon to cycle the action;
• By use of an aftermarket ambidextrous charging handle.
I have ambi-charging handles on all my rifles. Once again I rarely use the ambi feature. I trained myself early on (on work guns w/o ambi stuff) to roll the weapon back to the right and reach over to run the charging handle. There is a lot of crap in the way on the right side of the rifle - brass deflector and forward assist - that interferes with using an ambi-handle. I prefer the AXTS Raptor over the BCM Gunfighter.
As far as I'm concerned, every rifle should absolutely have an ambi-safety, preferably a short throw/60 safety - Battle Arms Development BAD-ASS; Noveske and Seekins Precision are ones I'm familiar with (listed in order of preference.)
Hope this did not go too far off the rails and is helpful.
SeriousStudent
11-28-16, 23:20
I also shoot carbines left-handed. I'm a fan of the Norgon Ambi-catch and the BAD-ASS ambi selector.
I have the BCM Gunfighter charging handles because Paul is a very good dude, and has supported a lot of people behind the scenes. I've never tried a Raptor, the Gunfighters do everything I need, and have done so for years.
I put those pieces on all my carbines and rifles, with the exception of a .22 and a 5.56 that I use for training new shooters.
Great advice here. If your set on building and nobody will change your mind then build a lower (with a non 80%, mil spec quality lower) and buy a complete BCM upper. Then buy a quality sling (SOB, VTAC, VCAS, Proctor) white light (Surefire, Streamlight) a red dot optic (Aimpoint) & quality magazines (PMAGS) & ammunition. Also make sure to get training too.
What's the beef with 80% lowers? I agree they're probably not ideal for a first time AR owner to tackle, but really an 80% lower is a simple thing to finish for anyone with even a modicum of mechanical nouse, and as long as it functions the only thing you can really F-up is the trigger / hammer pins being in slightly the wrong place / size throwing off the the trigger geometry, which is easily remedied with a drop-in trigger.
the only thing you can really F-up is the trigger / hammer pins being in slightly the wrong place / size throwing off the the trigger geometry, which is easily remedied with a drop-in trigger.
Messing up the trigger holes is a major mess up.
Proper engagement is critical for safety reasons.
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Messing up the trigger holes is a major mess up.
Proper engagement is critical for safety reasons.
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Yes, thats true, which is why I said use a drop in trigger if you don't really know what you're doing on the 80%.
What's the beef with 80% lowers? I agree they're probably not ideal for a first time AR owner to tackle, but really an 80% lower is a simple thing to finish for anyone with even a modicum of mechanical nouse, and as long as it functions the only thing you can really F-up is the trigger / hammer pins being in slightly the wrong place / size throwing off the the trigger geometry, which is easily remedied with a drop-in trigger.
Let me turn the question around... Why would you use an 80% lower?
Leaveammoforme
11-29-16, 16:18
Messing up the trigger holes is a major mess up.
Proper engagement is critical for safety reasons.
You would be surprised at how much you can get away with. The important measurement is the trigger and hammer pin holes relationship to each other. I have a lower that has seen around 5k with the right side pin holes .030" more forward than the left.
A good jig gets the relationship right. Press not being level will cause pin holes to be angled. Drill pin holes from one side only and it'll work.
Out of spec? Yep, functions just fine & learned from my mistake.
Let me turn the question around... Why would you use an 80% lower?
For me personally, it's the blank slate aspect and having something a little different.
If anyone is interested, start an 80% lower thread and I'll pitch in where I can.
titsonritz
11-29-16, 16:25
What's the beef with 80% lowers? I agree they're probably not ideal for a first time AR owner to tackle, but really an 80% lower is a simple thing to finish for anyone with even a modicum of mechanical nouse, and as long as it functions the only thing you can really F-up is the trigger / hammer pins being in slightly the wrong place / size throwing off the the trigger geometry, which is easily remedied with a drop-in trigger.
Says the guy with the handle of "ar_noob" - check
RobertTheTexan
11-29-16, 17:15
Messing up the trigger holes is a major mess up.
Proper engagement is critical for safety reasons.
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Messing up selector holes are another area I have seen issues. (Firsthand) Nothing like a loose safety selector switch to start your day off right. Paperweight.
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Says the guy with the handle of "ar_noob" - check
You knows it. :D
I looked at 80s for the "look what I did" factor and decided I didn't want to fool with it for not much less than a complete lower, even with a Bridgeport mill in the garage that makes them pretty easy.
One day I'll get Skippy and build a lower from a raw forging. That will be an accomplishment.
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